David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

I understand Lazaru5's anger I too dont want to install extra software as minimal as it would be on your computer, I just want my laptop to download stuff, play on Football Manager & go on the internet, I dont want anything else takeing up on my CPU, I also think its wrong we are being forced into installing Steam to play a game we all love to play on just to make the rich richer, I will probably not buy it out of annoyance for this latest setback, I will continue to play on FM2011 and not pay 30 quid for one new feature that is worth buying it for but no other features that make it much different to FM2011, the people they gain from buying the game instead of getting a pirated copy will not be as many loyal customers who are put off by this so you will end up losing money anyway. Im quiete angry but Im not as mad as some on here and I just will not buy it simples.
Idle steam takes up practically no system resources so even your laptop wont be badly affected by this. No idea what you mean by making the rich richer? Could you elaborate?

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If what one of the mods said earlier in this thread is true (I'm sorry, but I can't remember who or when), a copy of Steam could be shipped on the play disc, and yes, the 'activation' does have to be left open throughout.

As far as I'm aware, the steam client will be bundled on the disc for those who don't already have it. I'm not 100% sure though and it being half two on a Friday night/ Saturday morning it's probably not going to be quick to get the answer. Hopefully someone else can confirm.

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just to make the rich richer

I wish I was rich! We're trying to stop people pirating our games, that's all!

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Bertie, just a short question, what steam features will FM12 utilise. Can we expect the usual steamwork achievements, or are we going to get steam cloud and further steamworks features such as a server browser as well? Stats tracking and such as well would be pretty nifty.

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It would only take a small percentage of those who pirate the game to buy the game instead to dramatically increase sales figures (there is plenty of evidence to suggest this bit) and I would be very surprised if it's not more than a small percentage of people who pirate the game who only do so because it's easily accessible and free (that bit isn't fact, just my opinion). I also believe that many people pirating the game, love playing it and if that if there was no pirated alternative would buy the game legally instead (also my opinion). If you can believe that (I'm not saying you should, just that I do) then it's only a small jump to believe that making pirated versions less easily accessible leads to increased sales.

I hope you trust the projected amount of lost customers expected, against the amount of pirates you hope to turn into customers, due to this course of action, because it's looking pretty shaky to me.

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Bertie, just a short question, what steam features will FM12 utilise. Can we expect the usual steamwork achievements, or are we going to get steam cloud and further steamworks features such as a server browser as well? Stats tracking and such as well would be pretty nifty.

To be honest again, I'm not 100% sure as I'm not personally involved in the set up we have with Steam. Nor could I say if I did know tbh at it might well be something Miles has planned for a blog, I don't know. There will definitely be achievements though.

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I hope you trust the projected amount of lost customers expected, against the amount of pirates you hope to turn into customers, due to this course of action, because it's looking pretty shaky to me.

Customers lost for what? Using an amazing platform that Steam is? I'm really getting tired of everybody's crap.

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I hope you trust the projected amount of lost customers expected, against the amount of pirates you hope to turn into customers, due to this course of action, because it's looking pretty shaky to me.

The guys who made this decision would not have done so if they didn't think it would result in more people buying the game this year than before. We won't know if that's the case or whether you're right until after release.

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i have steam and use it to play most of my games. I have never had any problems with it and regard it as a fantastic resource. It uses almost no resources and opens up a whole new community. Often you can find games on there at great prices and as an Australian i am sooo happy that steam have fm 2012 at $40 US which is about the cheapest price i could expect to find anywhere in Australia or on the internet. Already preordered!

Having said that i can understand how some people feel a bit funny about having to install another piece of software on their computers in order to play the game. All i can say to those who are wondering about steam is that for me and the vast majority of people steam is a really great tool and they just may get hooked on it if they get it..

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I hope you trust the projected amount of lost customers expected, against the amount of pirates you hope to turn into customers, due to this course of action, because it's looking pretty shaky to me.

I'm sure the people at Sega thought this through on the financial impacts before making this kind of decision. You and I won't know the specific effects till a couple weeks after FM12 is released at the earliest.

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I just got an achievement type thing pop up for submitting my 250th Steam support ticket. About the same issue :L Now sort it please Steam? Pretty please. *cries*

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I think at this point SI is actually thinking(hoping rather) that people buy the game with steam rather than retail, and i wouldnt be surprised if retail was phased out in a few years... Just my two cents but it would be a smart business move.

Also pig, lost customers. What you and lazaru5? Yes, your 10 quid profit will be sorely missed. Dont think that this will impact sale numbers too much, it wont, if anything SI will make a bigger profit due to more sales over steam.

And honestly, lets all be grateful it isnt using GFWL, oh god that thing is dire.

I'm sure the people at Sega thought this through on the financial impacts before making this kind of decision. You and I won't know the specific effects till a couple weeks after FM12 is released at the earliest.
You could predict them though, it all depends on the amount of retail vs steam sales, SI is definetly pushing for one of those... it isn't hard to figure out why either.

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Neil Brock, you closed my thread! Where's the Poll? Can't that be left open or transferred? What's going on?

EDIT:

I've left this long enough but can't see anything different being posted in there than the other thread. Am closing this, you can continue to discuss FM activation here - http://community.sigames.com/showthr...012-Activation

Cheers.

Thank you Neil, does the poll not count as something different, or is it difficult to watch?

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Whilst the majority understand the reason why this is happening, some of the complaints are for the fact of having to install this software for just one game. Why do I need a new community, when this one does me fine, why do I need a library for my games when I only play FM, even sold my Xbox360 because I stopped going on it.

Steam maybe a great bit of software, I've never used it. If the activation method was just to go onto the SI website enter the Activation code, I think whilst there would still be a few moaners there would be nothing of this scale.

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DVDs bring a whole range of third party encryptions and protections to stop you from being able to rip them, but you're never informed of them. Would you feel the same way if before any film, you were given a large screen informing you that the DVD Copy Control Association had protected this disc, and that your DVD player had to have their certified software to read it?
And do you have to download these from the internet and have them running in order to play your game?
If what one of the mods said earlier in this thread is true (I'm sorry, but I can't remember who or when), a copy of Steam could be shipped on the play disc, and yes, the 'activation' does have to be left open throughout.

I agree, it's a flawed comparision, but it just seems that Steam has been singled out as the worst third party software ever simply for being the only one not to shroud itself in secrecy.

You have your wires crossed, I never mentioned Steam. I was asking you about that which appears in bold above. So, my question in the second quote?

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You remain optimistic, but i think there would still be complaints over anything other than a bog standard disk install(Surprised how people can handle CD-keys nowadays). And sort of online verification is a no no to a lot of people... you get used to it very easily though.

As to answer your question pigfacemonkeyman. You don't have to download anything, you do have to punch in a serial number however, each to his own on that. But i'd much rather have a program running idle in the background than have something in my disk drive, it's pretty much the same thing(And yes, CD checks do take time, arguably longer than steam takes to boot up in some cases). I'm seriously considering not even bothering to get an optical drive with my next PC, it's not required and the only thing it does is be obnoxiously LOUD.

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Customers lost for what? Using an amazing platform that Steam is? I'm really getting tired of everybody's crap.

Then I suggest an early night with a good book, maybe Oscar Wilde.

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You have your wires crossed, I never mentioned Steam. I was asking you about that which appears in bold above. So, my question in the second quote?

I know, but it is getting late :D

For DVD players, you do not need to download the various bits and bobs because they're sold hardwired. However, I have had to download new codecs for my laptop to deal with various different video formats. These codecs then do need to run constantly in the background. For example, I know that somewhere, K-Lite codec pack is running on my laptop.

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I'd be interested to know how that thing was set up where if someone had a pirated copy of the game their Euro championship was turned upside down after they qualified. How can that be done without intrusively looking at the content of someone's computer?

Personally I know a few people who have pirated it, and I also know they talk about being sick of the bugs, the bell and whistle "updates" rather than new games and so on. I also know however that they pirate games they think are the best around.

IMO we are living in the age of piracy and given a choice between my computer being invaded by god-knows-who or what company and software companies going out of business, I know which one I will choose. It happens in every field and until the law changes there will be no solution. My guess anyway is that companies don't have long to wait before the people's privacy loses its final battle, in fact in England and the US I thought it had already been trampled on with little resistance. How long can it be before companies have a limited ability to check the content of their game and their game only and people have indemnity on other issues? Economically Europe needs stuff like this now.

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I know, but it is getting late :D

For DVD players, you do not need to download the various bits and bobs because they're sold hardwired. However, I have had to download new codecs for my laptop to deal with various different video formats. These codecs then do need to run constantly in the background. For example, I know that somewhere, K-Lite codec pack is running on my laptop.

That has nothing to do with FM and activation thru' steam.

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This is awful news and has really put a dampner on my excitement for the game. It doesn't suprise me, especially after last years Steam exclusive demo, it is obvious that SI and/or Sega have their longterm vision for the series. I expect they could tell us precisely which version of FM they expect to ship exclusively in digital form.

It really bugs me that SI have on more than one occasion acknowledged Steam's ridiculous price strategy, and said that people who don't like it should just buy a proper priced hard copy of the game from Amazon. Once these hard copies are phased out, which will 100% happen, us FM fans will have to pay £39.99 or Euros 49.99, which are both actual steam list prices from FM 11, for those who think I am being sensationalist.

SI and Sega: You are aligning with a company that is happy to screw its customers.

Secondly, SI claimed last year that they make no more money from sales via Steam, despite the obvious savings digital distribution provides. Either 1, this is a lie, and unfortunately I believe it is, or 2 SI and Sega: You are aligning with a company that is happy to screw the game devs too!

No doubt we will continue to hear SI saying "It's because of piracy. It's because of piracy," but they have previously expressed on here a knowledge that the majority of people who pirate the game wouldn't play it at all if they had to pay for it, because that's who most pirates are. It grates with me because at a time when SI get increasing amounts of criticism for neglecting their fanbase, they again inconvenience (however small it may be) their existing fans in a futile attempt to salvage a lost cause.

I think Steam is a solid product, and have never had any problems using it, but to give people no choice is a real slap in the face in my opinion.

But, as keeps being pointed out, there's lots of consumer choice out there, and that's the best thing for all of us.

But what does Miles Jacobsen know eh?

I am truly, truly disappointed about this, and if I can control my addiction well enough to make a point, I will not be buying this years version, or any other that forces the use of Steam.

I'd be interested to know how that thing was set up where if someone had a pirated copy of the game their Euro championship was turned upside down after they qualified. How can that be done without intrusively looking at the content of someone's computer?

I believe the Demo release was coded to mess up the Euro groups, so that people who were playing with the inevitable demo-extender crack would suffer this problem, and people who started a new game on the full release would not.

However somehow SI failed to remember that one of their own major selling points for the demo was the ability to continue it on the full game, and so loads of legitimate customers had to suffer their game being ruined, with some even being accused of piracy by SI, which was quite funny. A very good point to bring up, I had forgotten about this.

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from Sega's David..

>>This year we have found what we believe is an acceptable solution. Any version of Football Manager 2012 bought on disc will have to be activated through the Steam network, so therefore purchasers will have to have an internet connection for initial activation. This is a one-time only activation which requires you to sign up for a Steam account (which is free) and to install the Steam client and once it has been done the game can be played offline by turning on Steam's Offline mode. With those two simple steps done there are no more hoops to jump through or steps to take.

Oh golly ! And there was I 2 years ago thinking how enlightened of SI Games to have Steam as an OPTION as well as the normal

CD in the drive.

There is a mighty problem with Steam Accounts.

When you are finished with a game linked to the Valve/Steam nexus, the CD-Key is not released when you uninstall said game.

This is because they still do not like the idea of us game owners (and that is what we are, despite Valve's "license only" bollocks) having the gall to want to sell our finished game on to another lucky punter.

This flies in the face of all recognised commercial transactions..be it for books, cars,... you name it.

I suspect it's because with 2nd hand games Valve (ie Gabe Newell) don't get a share of the extra transaction.

The fact that Newell worked at Microsoft for some years prior to founding Valve says it all really !

Please SI..we are your loyal fans..give us a break.

I feel sickened by this decision to have Steam only access.

Note..it is not a good commercial decision if your purchasers are deprived in any way.

Your "bottom line" is NOT an entitlement !!

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from Sega's David..

>>This year we have found what we believe is an acceptable solution. Any version of Football Manager 2012 bought on disc will have to be activated through the Steam network, so therefore purchasers will have to have an internet connection for initial activation. This is a one-time only activation which requires you to sign up for a Steam account (which is free) and to install the Steam client and once it has been done the game can be played offline by turning on Steam's Offline mode. With those two simple steps done there are no more hoops to jump through or steps to take.

Oh golly ! And there was I 2 years ago thinking how enlightened of SI Games to have Steam as an OPTION as well as the normal

CD in the drive.

There is a mighty problem with Steam Accounts.

When you are finished with a game linked to the Valve/Steam nexus, the CD-Key is not released when you uninstall said game.

This is because they still do not like the idea of us game owners (and that is what we are, despite Valve's "license only" bollocks) having the gall to want to sell our finished game on to another lucky punter.

This flies in the face of all recognised commercial transactions..be it for books, cars,... you name it.

I suspect it's because with 2nd hand games Valve (ie Gabe Newell) don't get a share of the extra transaction.

The fact that Newell worked at Microsoft for some years prior to founding Valve says it all really !

Please SI..we are your loyal fans..give us a break.

I feel sickened by this decision to have Steam only access.

Note..it is not a good commercial decision if your purchasers are deprived in any way.

Your "bottom line" is NOT an entitlement !!

Are you really that misinformed. It is ILLEGAL to resell a game. Steam prevents games from being resold. If you were ever so patient to actaully read what you are purchasing you should know that it prohibits the reselling of games. So what you have done in the past is illegal. Reselling games in contributing to piracy. After you finish one game, you can resell it and the devs don't make anything more. Multiple people can play one game and the devs would only receive the money for one copy. I'm glad you are admitting to doing something that is illegal.

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No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.

Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.

Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.

This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate

Look at that!

I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/07/drugs-policy-legalisation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

This is the best forum post i have ever seen. But unfortunately some people who work for SI/SEGA are too close minded to see that piracy isnt only a bad thing.

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I'm afraid you're horribly naive if you believe activation through steam is a solution at all. It may well prevent illegal versions being available before the retail game this year though but within 48 hours of release anyone who wants it illegally would have it. I'm not trying to provoke a reaction here, this is merely the way it is. Anyone whos into gaming and goes through websites talking about them will see the links and explanations littered around websites. Steam has become one of the easiest platforms to break through games on, unfortunately all this will serve to do is irritate more people than it helps.

To actually stand a chance of thwarting piracy you'll need something new, steam is at best a 2 day delay, DRM protection usually ends up with keygens and no-cd .exe's. The current technology is very much outdated.

Whilst not entirely efficient it would stump most users if you had a little bit of code that connected to something online with SI to check its genuine - if it fails this check then corrupt the save files. Not many games use this at all never mind to corrupt a save, but just a ping of certain data every 10 hours or so of play (of course those offline would still be able to get around it unless they reconnected) but it would be far less intrusive and would actually cause most piraters to give up. It could even be at random intervals, there would be nothing more frustrating to someone pirating the game if after they just get promoted or something their game pings the server, is found to be a false copy and they lose their save games as well as the FM.exe going down.

Still I'll do my part and when I see FM torrents linked around I will provide them to Sega/SI to deal with, I genuinely expect to see it available illegally before legally again though.

You seriously would be happy with a remote connection being able to alter(destroy) files on your system then?

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This is the best forum post i have ever seen.

Agree with this. Top post from x42bn6.

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Which is already featured in windows? Yeah.

This is the best forum post i have ever seen. But unfortunately some people who work for SI/SEGA are too close minded to see that piracy isnt only a bad thing.

The post is sort of half and half, he's right about piracy, but steam wont encourage piracy. Now, valve doesnt release how much a game sold, but 40 odd million users on steam means they're not doing too badly in that regard. Steam wont have that "massive" impact everyone is pretending it will have, it'll cause people to sigh install it and move on(honestly, it's harder to install a game these days than use steam). The 3 lost customers wont matter. People who would pirate the game in the first place, would do it anyway, people who wouldnt pirate it, still wont pirate it. People who are on the fence? Well chances are they wont be hugely affected by this, everyone seems to just take steam as a program and apply such a massive hyperbole to the sales lost value that it boggles my mind. Remember, in the end, FM is a niche game, it's not something for the mass market. And even then, there are some games with MORE restrictive DRM that sell insane amounts(Starcraft 2 comes to mind). It's not about the DRM, it's about what incentives can you give someone in order to use it. It's down to SI as to how much they will utilise the features from steam, the more they do, the easier it will be to convince the consumer that it is indeed, the right choice.

In the end, stop saying that steam will be a catastrophe for sales, it wont. As i've said, it's going to be a minor inconvience to people, but they wont care, they didnt for half life 2, or any other game that requires steam, they wont care if FM uses it. IF people actually do decide to pirate the game based on the DRM however(especially steam which is hardly restrictive despite what people would have you believe), then i am at a loss for words. As that would basically mean people on this very forum would openly commit to piracy.

Meh, either way it's pointless, people will complain about steam, people will defend it, but the bottom line wont be changed that much. Also, theres a reason these people are hired and you're not; They have a much bigger grasp on finances than anyone in this thread. The only company that seems to be an exception to that rule is ubisoft, which i have no idea WHAT the hell it's trying to do with it's DRM features. Even EA is being reasonable about it, ubisoft just takes the ****.

As for piracy, it can be a good thing when used by a person who has his head on straight. Pirates mostly do not. They have the mentality of "I love this game and the developer did a great job, i'd pay it for them but why if i can have it for free?". You have to realise that yes, there are pirates who pirate games out of neccesity(lack of funds) or due to DRM, but they are negligible, the majority of pirates just dont want to pay for something full stop.

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Are you really that misinformed. It is ILLEGAL to resell a game. Steam prevents games from being resold. If you were ever so patient to actaully read what you are purchasing you should know that it prohibits the reselling of games. So what you have done in the past is illegal. Reselling games in contributing to piracy. After you finish one game, you can resell it and the devs don't make anything more. Multiple people can play one game and the devs would only receive the money for one copy. I'm glad you are admitting to doing something that is illegal.

Just read this, and out of curiosity (not siding one way or the other) - if it is illegal to resell a game, why are GAME, HMV and Gamestation not having any trouble buying and selling pre-owned games? This practice is literally accepted by all the publishers and developers without any lawsuit being made. If it was illegal, I assure you, these three companies would have stopped by now or they would have been facing very heavy consequences. Not to mention that eBay has a section entirely devoted to this practice. Are you sure it's illegal?

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What a shame, I like having the option of using the disc over steam, I even wish that more games would give you this option. I doubt I will pick up the game now, thanks for saving me £25.

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I believe that the only way in this case to figure out what the right thing to do is to wait for the free market to respond. The game is not a government mandate or any form of social control, and what a company should do is focus on the bottom line, and no one can fault them for trying to do that. In the end, if sales soar, then we know that they have successfully converted people from piracy by making a game of high enough quality to convince people to buy copies. If sales drop then we know that people may have found the hassle too much, or are fundamentally against the idea of steam activation. If the sales remain the same however, that's probably not a good thing for anyone.

We do have a choice whether to buy the game or not. It's a bit poo that I can't pass the game on to a friend or family member after I'm done with it but if I do want to play it, then I have to live with it. It's also dumb that steam doesn't work like it should all the time. I sympathize with people who can't activate their game or update it because of not having internet, but then I also sympathize with people who have computers who can't play the game, or don't have computers at all, or are physically disabled so they can't play the game. The company set the requirement and if we don't meet it, then I guess it's not for us. With all due respect to people who may get alienated by the development of the game, making the developers accommodate everyone is just going to drag down the quality of the game.

That being said, I do expect something back from the company. If the sales go up as much as they say it is, then something needs to come back to us. If the extra money does in fact give them the resources to make the game better, then we will be expecting a jump in quality in line with the money earned from doing this in the next editions of the game, or a price decrease in the future. I've mentioned this over and over again, but if the developers want to earn extra revenue at our expense by using in-game ads, or not allowing us to resell the game, that a single household needs multiple copies, or forcing us to install third-party applications to run it (as they are surely profiting from this) then they had better make it worth our while.

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Just noticed the other thread had been closed but my post was not replied to, so I figured I'd post it here, too...

__

Hmm. I don't like it. I prefer the "use the CD at all times" option which I've done for FM09, FM10 and FM11. Now, I don't know if I'll decide against buying the game just because of Steam. I'm interested in knowing whether or not it is possible to force activation via Steam while still allowing you to uninstall Steam afterwards and continue playing? It's been a long time since I've touched Steam and I just don't like the idea of logging into third party software just so I can play a game.

Also, if I buy the game in a store and play it using Steam, can Steam still block me from playing? If for some reason my account is lost, banned or whatever, can I still just re-activate the game again on a different login? Or is this how Steam does things? I'm honestly not sure. I think I only ever played one game on Steam and, again, it was quite some time ago and obviously not long enough for me to get a real opinion of the system. All I got out of my Steam experience is that it was an annoyance and I was happy to uninstall it, much like I was happy to uninstall that Raptor software some games come with.

It's really disappointing more than anything. And I will be stunned if somehow this genuinely stops the piracy of the game. If I were to visit a torrent site the day after buying a game, would I see Football Manager 2012 there? I'm fairly confident I would. I buy the game because I love it, and I like having physical copies of games. I'm glad that SI aren't stopping me from being able to buy the game at stores because of that. But do I have to install Steam just to stop people pirating the game? Is this a realistic expectation? Again, I'll be stunned if any PC game out there is not pirated. It's, rather sadly, the way of things. Console gaming fixes a lot of that, and I suppose Xbox Live and Playstation Network are effectively the same as Steam, but I just don't like the idea of having a software literally controlling the access to my games. PSN / XBL do not control access to games. Steam does. I guess that's the difference. And that's the part I don't like. =/

EDIT: If this is just down to people pirating the game BEFORE the day of release, perhaps SI could release another no-Steam-required game a month or two later? I would honestly wait that long if it meant I could buy the game without requiring Steam. :) I don't mind the idea of Steam being required for activation. I just mind the idea of Steam being required to play the game for all eternity (or at least until FM2013).

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I have just heard FM12 will only be installable through Steam and I have to say I'm disgusted. Anyone can tell you the majority of your paying customers don't like or appreciate being forced to play through Steam. It's foistware. I don't want that crap on my PC. I want to play FM, not install some unrelated program. I won't be buying FM12 because of this and I have been playing the series since Championship Manager 3.

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I use Steam and it annoys me. Sometimes it wont even go into offline mode if I forget my log in details. And if I forget them and I have no internet that day, I am basically screwed.

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EDIT: If this is just down to people pirating the game BEFORE the day of release, perhaps SI could release another no-Steam-required game a month or two later? I would honestly wait that long if it meant I could buy the game without requiring Steam. :) I don't mind the idea of Steam being required for activation. I just mind the idea of Steam being required to play the game for all eternity (or at least until FM2013).

The Problem if they did that would be the pirates will know and just wait for the non-steam-required game.

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I'd say 930+ responses in 17 hours gives you an idea of the level of feeling on this topic. Steam is no problem for me but I can understand the concerns that many have raised on this over the years.

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Well done guys...hopefully this way the game doesn't get cracked two days before official release and saves me the headache (to pirate it or not to pirate it) - last year I've pre-ordered it on Steam weeks ago, but when I saw the game available a couple of days early it wasn't easy...

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I use Steam and it annoys me. Sometimes it wont even go into offline mode if I forget my log in details. And if I forget them and I have no internet that day, I am basically screwed.

If you don't have interent connection and Steam won't start just pull out internet cable from your computer or manually disable the wireless on your desktop. Then Steam will ask you if you want to start in offline mode.

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I don't get the moaning about having to install 3rd party software... what about directx...what about frame network...etc.

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Having slept on this I am rather disturbed that SI's attitude to FM'ers with no internet facility is "later W*nkers!". I expected better, cant imagine the Collyer Bros would have aproved of such a future delelopment in Corporate policy when they created the 1st CM. Im sure they are anti-pirates much as anyone but SI seem to be treating those without the net in a shoddy fashion - shame.

To be honest I dont really care about anyone playing pirated copies compared to caring how I can access the game myself and as has been previously stated pirated copies are generally owned by those who would not pay for the game (rather go without), those who cannot afford £30-£40, those who cannot access copies of the game commercially and those who have been ripped off thinking they had the real deal. As it seems pirates always get that cracked product in the end I wonder how many £'s in real terms the game would lose through piracy, less than the Corporate predictions no doubt. This is surely Sega protecting their profit margin - no more, no less.

Actually there are more pro-Steam opinions than I was expecting so I will await 21st Oct with hope.

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I don't get the moaning about having to install 3rd party software... what about directx...what about frame network...etc.

Apparently only things you can rant at SI about qualify, all other third party software is to be ignored;)

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Actually there are more pro-Steam opinions than I was expecting so I will await 21st Oct with hope.

I'm pretty sure that's because it's become a generally trouble free app for the vast majority of people who use it, and whether or not you consider the bonuses and bargains that come it with interesting or not initially, you'll find there's something worth having for just about everybody.

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The only problem I have with Steam is that I have to pay 49.99 Euro to buy it from them :/ :/ Why can't it be 30 like other places?

I can't believe some of the comments I've read though. How can you seriously say that because of Steam you won't buy the game?! This is insane, all they're asking for is a TINY sacrifice, if you can even call it that! I know that the majority of people REALLY love the game, and would do so much more in order to get hold of it!! (I'd spend weeks cleaning the streets if I was told that's my only chance of getting FM!). To say 'I won't buy because of Steam' is really and truly seriously questioning your loyalty and love for the game - don't this that by starting your posts with 'I'm a loyal customer because I've bought since CM2' is making you look nice, quite the opposite, if you're not willing to back the decision of SI/SEGA in order to help your gaming experience improve.

Even if it DOES NOT improve, still, there is no risk or waste of time or anything whatsoever.

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I live in New Zealand and the first time SI went with the Steam option on FM 09 I think it was I spent a horrid weekend trying to get the damn thing installed, it was an extremely annoying situation that very briefly made me consider quitting the series altogether.

Now I'm sure that SI are aware of those issues that we had down under as I finally managed to actually play the game thanks to the SI team, so I would like to know if SI has learned from that bitter experience and that when I pop in my legally purchased copy of FM 2012 on the release date that I will be able to install and activate and be playing the game within minutes.

If so then fantastic, I await with the usual pleasure and excitement, please let there not be a if not...

SI, will users in other territories such as New Zealand be able to install, activate and play without the issues that plagued us the first time you tried this?

Thank you.

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And for crying out loud!! Who in the world, who can afford a PC/laptop good enough to run FM, CANNOT get hold of an internet connection for two bloody minutes?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!! Some people are so disillusioned!

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I havent read all the pages of this post.

But has it been answered what to do, if you are unable to connect to Steam due the ports needed are blocked in a firewall, and you have no possibility to open these ports (27500-27510 i think)?

This is the same issue on FM2011 I know that, but it really is annoying - have you or steam thought about giving access through normal http (port 80) or https (port 443) ?

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The only problem I have with Steam is that I have to pay 49.99 Euro to buy it from them :/ :/ Why can't it be 30 like other places?.

You don't have to, you can buy on disc for as cheap as you can get and just use Steam to authenticate.

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I'm sure I remember a thread like this when SI announced the copy protection in FM09, now whilst that didn't work, everyone here knows it didn't work because they still went out and bought the game. Obviously I dont know the figures but I'd be willing to stick my neck out and saying that all that uproar that was caused still didnt affect sales. Admittedly Steam can be seen as an 'inconvenience' but a lot of things people are saying here are untrue. I think the majority of people complaining will still buy the game, Sega aren't going to change their mind so save your complaining for FM13 is my advice ;)

Hopefully SI will release the demo on Steam so you can all give it a go and form your own opinions. Don't knock it until you've tried

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Hehe yes yes I know ;) It's just that since we now have to use Steam anyway, I would have preferred to buy it from there to avoid having to wait for the delivery of the item (to buy it from shops in Malta would ALSO cost around 50 Euro, hehe, so I prefer to get it from abroad). Last year it came a week late from Zavvi :( (it was pre-ordered).

I'm now looking into the download thing from Shop-To. Does anyone know how that will work exactly?

You don't have to, you can buy on disc for as cheap as you can get and just use Steam to authenticate.

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Hehe yes yes I know ;) It's just that since we now have to use Steam anyway, I would have preferred to buy it from there to avoid having to wait for the delivery of the item (to buy it from shops in Malta would ALSO cost around 50 Euro, hehe, so I prefer to get it from abroad). Last year it came a week late from Zavvi :( (it was pre-ordered).

I'm now looking into the download thing from Shop-To. Does anyone know how that will work exactly?

Yeh, understood, I think I'd bite the bullet and go with Steam just for the convenience and guarantee that I'll be playing from midnight on release day.

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>Are you really that misinformed. It is ILLEGAL to resell a game.

Eh ?

Since when ?

The second hand market is alive and well in Australia, and I'd be surprised if this were not the case everywhere else as well.

I'm bemused by your comment mate.

If Valve try to prevent the reselling of games, they are sailing close to the wind. In most places you'll find this behaviour borders on "restrictive trade practices".

This is illegal in Australia certainly, and maybe gamers in the US should call Valve's bluff.

If I was anybody in SI I wouldn't go near Steam. It may not do any gaming house's reputation any good in the long run.

Thankfully there are SO many games available outside of Steam..except Footy Manager games now..blah.

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