Has FM Become Too Easy?

[Swilliams]

Does anyone else think FM has become too easy in the past 5-10 years?

I haven't played Fm since 2020 (lockdown hobby), however, my friend and I decided to get it to do a network game. 

First season with Brentford I won a Premier League and Fa Cup double.

I remember playing fm 2009 and 2010 and it would take me until the second season to win the league with Liverpool. 

Back then, I'd struggle to break into Europe with mid table teams and on fm 2012 I came 4th in the first season with Swansea and it was a massive achievement for me at the time!

 

Do you all think that FM has become easier in more recent additions? Or is the game still as difficult as it used to be and it's just a case that I'm more experienced with the game and utilise all of the mechanics effectively?

What are your experiences?

[XaW]

Honestly, it depends. If you have played it for ages, I'd argue that you've just gotten better at it! One of the main criticism of the game from "non-FM'ers" is that it's too hard! So it's the balance of making it hard enough for hardcore players, but also easy enough to get into.

And the game also kind of has it's internal system for challenge, at least for the first seasons. If you select no badges and a Sunday league experience and take over a PL team, you'll have a much harder time than if you pick top badges and experience! Trust me, the players will not respect you if you have a very low standing in the game!

Then again, FM is essentially a sandbox simulation where you can technically not be the main character. After all, the game moves along whenever you click continue, and if you are a low level team, the footballing world won't even acknowledge your existence until you make a name for yourself. If you see it like that, you essentially set your own goals and limitation if you wish. Personally, I've more or less only played youth-only saves for the last 10 years or so, because I think hoarding wonderkids and steamrolling the game is too easy and not as rewarding. And seeing as that one of the most engaging threads on the forum every year, I'm not alone in the madness!

In the end, it's all up to how you wish to play and what you enjoy. Some just like to pick a top team and steamroll into trebles and quintuples and the like, others enjoy spending 10 seasons in the lower leagues hoping for a talented youth player to come through or a lucky cup run to garner money to improve the setup, others again try to replicate real life tactics rather than have careers. Do what you enjoy, and if you find your usual style of playing too easy or hard, why not try a new way of playing the game?

[El Payaso]

Good question. Hard to answer though. 

I have found this version of FM quite difficult but it might be because I am just playing with low block and purposely doing many things to limit my "success potential". 

If I would compare it to something about ten years ago, I was more successful. On FM 2014 I promoted Boreham Wood to the Premier League by getting promoted every season, except during the first season in the Championship. Next year I played with Real Oviedo, got them promoted from the third level of Spanish football in two years and overtook Real Madrid and Barcelona in my second season in La Liga while mainly still using same players I had in season 1 and 2.

In my opinion FM shouldn't be an easy game as it is supposed be a career type of simulation which should include a very big chance of getting sacked for example. Also if a career can last even for hundred years, why should we start winning immediately? 

[Swilliams]

47 minutes ago, XaW said:

Honestly, it depends. If you have played it for ages, I'd argue that you've just gotten better at it! One of the main criticism of the game from "non-FM'ers" is that it's too hard! So it's the balance of making it hard enough for hardcore players, but also easy enough to get into.

And the game also kind of has it's internal system for challenge, at least for the first seasons. If you select no badges and a Sunday league experience and take over a PL team, you'll have a much harder time than if you pick top badges and experience! Trust me, the players will not respect you if you have a very low standing in the game!

Then again, FM is essentially a sandbox simulation where you can technically not be the main character. After all, the game moves along whenever you click continue, and if you are a low level team, the footballing world won't even acknowledge your existence until you make a name for yourself. If you see it like that, you essentially set your own goals and limitation if you wish. Personally, I've more or less only played youth-only saves for the last 10 years or so, because I think hoarding wonderkids and steamrolling the game is too easy and not as rewarding. And seeing as that one of the most engaging threads on the forum every year, I'm not alone in the madness!

In the end, it's all up to how you wish to play and what you enjoy. Some just like to pick a top team and steamroll into trebles and quintuples and the like, others enjoy spending 10 seasons in the lower leagues hoping for a talented youth player to come through or a lucky cup run to garner money to improve the setup, others again try to replicate real life tactics rather than have careers. Do what you enjoy, and if you find your usual style of playing too easy or hard, why not try a new way of playing the game?

Very good point regarding the badges! I set mine to international experience which is probably like putting the game on easy mode. 

I think I will try and build a UK players + academy graduates only team on our network game. My friend is playing as Palace and has just had a tycoon takeover (went through when we last played). It should be a good challenge playing within certain restrictions whilst he has bigger resources to go out and spend!

[NineCloudNine]

Most games are easy to learn and hard to master.

FM is hard to learn and easy to master.

It is a brutal learning curve for newbies - hugely complex, fiddly, unintutive, poorly explained, easy to miss things, easy to misunderstand things, easy to get into a downward spiral where nothing works.

Once you have figured out the various systems, mastered the UI, learned what matters and what doesn't, watched a few tutorials and scanned some threads here, it becomes pretty simple to over-achieve vs your club's real life position.

The irony is that having climbed the vertical learning wall, you need to make it challenging for yourself again by limiting yourself or creating challenges. I actually enjoy that element because I play to create (or recreate) scenarios rather than beat the game, but one guaranteed way to get a rise out of some posters here is to suggest making it hard for yourself by not doing the things that make it easy .

Edited April 5 by NineCloudNine

[wazzaflow10]

25 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Most games are easy to learn and hard to master.

FM is hard to learn and easy to master.

I don't think there's any way SI could flip the game into the former in its current state.

Maybe as you get coaching badges you get access to more advanced roles or formation freedom. Or some sort of GUI on top of the tactics creator that lets you pick a manager's who style you want to emulate and then your attacking 4/5/6 players and formation while in/out of possession and defensive 6/5/4 players and formation while out of/in possession. The game picks roles and duties for you that best match your choices and off you go. Kind of remarkable we've gone from WIBWOB to sliders to the current interface and its still regarded as too complicated.

[Neal Mac]

I think it needs to be harder to poach really good young players from other teams. As long as that is basically an all you can eat buffet, it will be too easy for anyone knowing how to play.

Too easy to win, too easy to make money.

 

It is funny because steam forum users swear the game is rigged, scripted and impossible to win. 

Edited April 6 by Neal Mac

[whatsupdoc]

They've left too many broken mechanics in. Double DMs on support, focus out wide, low crosses and things get very easy. 

[jcafcwbb]

What SI can do is to better balance tactics and player ability. In my opinion tactics has too much of a say in how a team performs in the game. If you look at real life football recruitment is more important than tactics. Do not get me wrong, tactics are still important but there is nothing the real life Luton manager can do tactically to compete with the likes of Man City or indeed most established Premier League sides. The difference between Man Utd and Man City is the quality of recruitment. Ten Hag may or may not be an elite manager but he is hampered by the clunkers hanging around the squad they cannot get rid of.

In the game I was able to dispatch a strong Newcastle side in the EFL Cup 2-0 because I was at home and the game accepted my tactics were correct. The fact that none of my players would get in their side was seemingly ignored. The reverse happened in the FA Cup a few days later. I was away to a Conference South side and that coupled with my tactics not being deemed correct saw me 1-0 down at HT and second best. A slight tweak saw me win 3-2. Once again the game ignored the player ability in favour of tactics. 

[lied90]

I don't think FM is easier than before.

I do think information about how to win is much more easily available now than before.

[SPE3D]

21 hours ago, Swilliams said:

Does anyone else think FM has become too easy in the past 5-10 years?

I haven't played Fm since 2020 (lockdown hobby), however, my friend and I decided to get it to do a network game. 

First season with Brentford I won a Premier League and Fa Cup double.

I remember playing fm 2009 and 2010 and it would take me until the second season to win the league with Liverpool. 

Back then, I'd struggle to break into Europe with mid table teams and on fm 2012 I came 4th in the first season with Swansea and it was a massive achievement for me at the time!

 

Do you all think that FM has become easier in more recent additions? Or is the game still as difficult as it used to be and it's just a case that I'm more experienced with the game and utilise all of the mechanics effectively?

What are your experiences?

It's as easy or hard as you want to make it.

[Costav]

On 05/04/2024 at 20:44, NineCloudNine said:

Most games are easy to learn and hard to master.

FM is hard to learn and easy to master.

It is a brutal learning curve for newbies - hugely complex, fiddly, unintutive, poorly explained, easy to miss things, easy to misunderstand things, easy to get into a downward spiral where nothing works.

Once you have figured out the various systems, mastered the UI, learned what matters and what doesn't, watched a few tutorials and scanned some threads here, it becomes pretty simple to over-achieve vs your club's real life position.

I completely agree with this definition of the game.

Once you know what is important to manage then your life as a manager becomes very easy. 

Additionally, sometimes I have the feeling that personality, tactics, and all those qualities that are supposed to be hidden (or at least not to have a direct identification of how they work) are useless. THE example is tactical knowledge for new players: in half a season can have a team with 100% tactical knowledge and, although this should be related to a lot of parameters (role, the interaction of roles within the line-up etc...) I've always found it easy to insert a new player and make it perform better (or as well as) players already in the team.

In addition, in most countries if you have a series of negative matches you may start to be questioned by the board, players feel more pressure, and you may have problems with a part of the team, while in FM you may have two months of losses and, if you are still in the range to achieve the objectives the board assigned to you, you don't have to worry about. That is another big limitation of the game. Lack of pressure based on results and/or on the quality of your "football proposal".

P.s. The only thing that helped me in the last years to regain interest and motivation in the only video game I play is to hide player attributes and rely only on reports and the octagon of quality. It, at least, allows you to make some mistakes in the market sessions and increases your "ability to fail" if you make errors in buying players, mainly because I feel that the scouting system for IA is different from the one used by human-manager. (you know tons of players you want to buy and make offers at the same time, while IA only buys one player per time, but the topic is too wide to be discussed in a single comment). 

[Jonthedon26]

I went back to FM09 recently and played as Birmingham City in the championship... it was solid haha. They are my team and I play as them for my first (and sometimes only) save on every FM and despite us being absolutely awful in real life for 10 years, on the newer versions I always get promoted to the premier league within 2 seasons and have yet to ever be relegated or sacked. Again as you pointed out I don't know if that is because the game has become easier, or whether I just know what works and what doesn't on FM these days. 

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, Costav disse:

I completely agree with this definition of the game.

Once you know what is important to manage then your life as a manager becomes very easy. 

Additionally, sometimes I have the feeling that personality, tactics, and all those qualities that are supposed to be hidden (or at least not to have a direct identification of how they work) are useless. THE example is tactical knowledge for new players: in half a season can have a team with 100% tactical knowledge and, although this should be related to a lot of parameters (role, the interaction of roles within the line-up etc...) I've always found it easy to insert a new player and make it perform better (or as well as) players already in the team.

In addition, in most countries if you have a series of negative matches you may start to be questioned by the board, players feel more pressure, and you may have problems with a part of the team, while in FM you may have two months of losses and, if you are still in the range to achieve the objectives the board assigned to you, you don't have to worry about. That is another big limitation of the game. Lack of pressure based on results and/or on the quality of your "football proposal".

P.s. The only thing that helped me in the last years to regain interest and motivation in the only video game I play is to hide player attributes and rely only on reports and the octagon of quality. It, at least, allows you to make some mistakes in the market sessions and increases your "ability to fail" if you make errors in buying players, mainly because I feel that the scouting system for IA is different from the one used by human-manager. (you know tons of players you want to buy and make offers at the same time, while IA only buys one player per time, but the topic is too wide to be discussed in a single comment). 

 

The main issue is that in real football, the likelihood you're going to lose is way bigger than that of winning. Most managers and teams IRL will simply lose, even for bigger teams winning is difficult, but  FM is just a video game and players need to have that reward of winning, because if the game become as difficult as real football, it will not sell as much. One must admit that it is a hard task for SI, to adress that. 

That is why I think most challenges within the game are becoming too artificial, you need too much time to understand the game, but once you understand it becomes a matter of creating your own challenges because it won't be hard to win at all. Managing Real Madrid, Man City in real life is a hard task, in FM not so much. 

 

[Los_Culés]

@RodrigogcAgree with you, especially the second paragraph, but I think we also have to keep in mind that nobody wants FM to become a full time job. I mean the amount of work/preparation that real life managers do is something we FM players want to imagine that we do it too but in reality we don't want to do it as we have our jobs .

[Etebaer]

The entrance hurdle is sky high but after that there is little increase in the challenge so there is the challenge to get into the game but not much challenge after and that drives both beginners and vets either into to back off the entry hurdle or later boredom and retirement.

Then there is also the burn out feeling of the content creators...

Edited April 8 by Etebaer

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, Los_Culés disse:

@RodrigogcAgree with you, especially the second paragraph, but I think we also have to keep in mind that nobody wants FM to become a full time job. I mean the amount of work/preparation that real life managers do is something we FM players want to imagine that we do it too but in reality we don't want to do it as we have our jobs .

Exactly, but that is the challenge SI has been facing in the last few years, because football has become too analytical. I play FM08, back then things like data analysts were not important, these days they are crucial and FM has to replicate that. Football these days is way more complex that before, in terms of nutrition, data, training, etc... but FM is just a game, so the point of it becoming bloated is just a reflection of how hard the task is to SI, since they have to create a realistic game but at the same time acknowledge that people have a real life to take care of. 

I've been playing older versions because what I care about is basically the ME and a challenging AI, and I don't have much patience with today's FM interactions, players complaining too much, loads of information on my screen, etc.. 

I think SI has been missing the point because they come up with new features every year, when actually I think most people would prefer that the game becomes more streamlined and they focus on fixing what really matters and made people fall in love with the franchise in the first place. No wonder many people, including me, have been playing older versions (some even prefer playing CM).

[FlorianAlbert9]

I never understand when they said "it's easy 'cause you use Real/Man/Liv/etcc, try with *obscure team". 

Managing top team should be the hardest level.

IRL they wouldn't pay coaches millions otherwise. 

And it is sad that in a game called Football MANAGER, AI manager never count. 

For sure winning Champions with Real is easier than winning with MTK.

For MTK winning CL IRL is impossible. In this football era, literally impossible. 

FM is a game and so it is great you have the possibility to make great a very poor club.

And i know it will be hard to get a right balance in difficulty level, maybe there is no solution (if you make big team stronger then you will not win with a poor club). 

The only solution it will be set at least 2 difficulty level. 

One like is it now. 

Ana a harder one where: 

1)find great player throught scouting will be complex

2) attributes like 'decision' and 'important matches' have a huge impact (like IRL)

3) top AI manager can get the best from their players. 

[jcafcwbb]

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

Exactly, but that is the challenge SI has been facing in the last few years, because football has become too analytical. I play FM08, back then things like data analysts were not important, these days they are crucial and FM has to replicate that. Football these days is way more complex that before, in terms of nutrition, data, training, etc... but FM is just a game, so the point of it becoming bloated is just a reflection of how hard the task is to SI, since they have to create a realistic game but at the same time acknowledge that people have a real life to take care of. 

I've been playing older versions because what I care about is basically the ME and a challenging AI, and I don't have much patience with today's FM interactions, players complaining too much, loads of information on my screen, etc.. 

I think SI has been missing the point because they come up with new features every year, when actually I think most people would prefer that the game becomes more streamlined and they focus on fixing what really matters and made people fall in love with the franchise in the first place. No wonder many people, including me, have been playing older versions (some even prefer playing CM).

The problem is that SI have caused problems for themselves.

People do not want to spend hours analysing things they just want to try and play matches. Take the stars system - I want to know if a player can play in a certain position and not how he ranks in the squad relative to the other squad members, Who thought getting the ass manger's opinion was a good idea?

I just want to know if Garnacho can play left wing or not and to what standard and that should be based on his attributes and possibly morale/form. His ability to play left wing should not be measured against other team members. You can have someone who is a 2 star winger in one team in the Premier League who would be a 4-star winger in another team. How is this a thing? If we have three 4 star left wingers then it is my job to decide who is the starter and who may  moved on.

That is my understanding of stars is and if I am wrong it is once again because nothing is properly explained because tactics is the the deciding factor in FM and player ability has too little say in it. I can let any DoF sign any player and I can make it work as I understand how to manipulate the games system. 

[DP]

Yes. More systems than the AI can handle and the game world falls over 10 seasons in. 

A quick way to test the theory is to create a great team and then watch what the AI does to it as soon as you leave. Literally every time it falls off a cliff. 

Edited April 8 by DP

[NineCloudNine]

4 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

I think SI has been missing the point because they come up with new features every year, when actually I think most people would prefer that the game becomes more streamlined and they focus on fixing what really matters and made people fall in love with the franchise in the first place. No wonder many people, including me, have been playing older versions (some even prefer playing CM).

I am sure there is nothing SI would like more than to have a year without having to create any new features. I'd certainly enjoy it too. But it's a big risk because plenty of those people who claim they're not bothered by new features will then complain that they are being asked to pay again for a game which basically fixes the bugs in the game they bought the year before.

The annual cycle is the curse here. But the alternative is a subscription model and whenever I have suggested that here the idea gets a lot of pushback.

[Rodrigogc]

44 minutos atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

I am sure there is nothing SI would like more than to have a year without having to create any new features. I'd certainly enjoy it too. But it's a big risk because plenty of those people who claim they're not bothered by new features will then complain that they are being asked to pay again for a game which basically fixes the bugs in the game they bought the year before.

The annual cycle is the curse here. But the alternative is a subscription model and whenever I have suggested that here the idea gets a lot of pushback.

You are correct, and I support your subscription model idea as well. Having to come up with something new every year I suppose it overwhelms the devs team since they have to come up with ideas, filter what will work and what will not, figure out a way to implement them, test them.. and at the same time find out how they can improve what has been added before and sometimes even take something out. Too many things to do within a year, which leads to countless patchs/updates, and more and more things to fix for the next year.

The annual cycle creates problems but at the same time it gives a reason for customers to wait for the next version.  It has become a never ending cycle. 

[Jonthedon26]

16 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

I am sure there is nothing SI would like more than to have a year without having to create any new features. I'd certainly enjoy it too. But it's a big risk because plenty of those people who claim they're not bothered by new features will then complain that they are being asked to pay again for a game which basically fixes the bugs in the game they bought the year before.

The annual cycle is the curse here. But the alternative is a subscription model and whenever I have suggested that here the idea gets a lot of pushback.

Wasn't that supposed to be this year? I can't actually remember any new features this year, I just remember the main selling point of this years iteration was that it was supposed to be the most polished version to date. 

[NineCloudNine]

1 hour ago, Jonthedon26 said:

Wasn't that supposed to be this year? I can't actually remember any new features this year, I just remember the main selling point of this years iteration was that it was supposed to be the most polished version to date. 

Positional play, intermediaries, player targets, new game modes, set piece coaches/wizard:

https://www.footballmanager.com/features

Edited April 9 by NineCloudNine

[Jonthedon26]

39 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Positional play, intermediaries, player targets, new game modes, set piece coaches/wizard:

https://www.footballmanager.com/features

Aaaahhh yeah I forgot about those as I don't use any of them haha. I blame my bad memory on my old age!

[NineCloudNine]

21 minutes ago, Jonthedon26 said:

Aaaahhh yeah I forgot about those as I don't use any of them haha. I blame my bad memory on my old age!

Given that FM24 had previously - as you said - been positioned as a polished, complete version of the game, the list of new features came as a surprise to me as well.

I think positional play - which IMO has been done really well - was definitely needed because it is such a big part of modern football. The rest I don’t recall there being a noisy clamour for, though of course SI do a lot more research than just asking on these forums.

[wazzaflow10]

22 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

The annual cycle is the curse here. But the alternative is a subscription model and whenever I have suggested that here the idea gets a lot of pushback.

I actually like owning things for one and despise everything becoming a subscription.

The number one problem with subscription model is licensing imo. How would you feel if during a save SI lost licensing for a league you were in and your save was ruined as a result? Hell I get mad when Paradox updates their games from CK or HOI and old saves aren't compatible anymore.

I also doubt a lot of fixes or mods would be even allowed - one of the reasons I never bothered with Stadia and my biggest pro for playing PC games: fine tuned control compared to consoles

Just as an example GTA4 lost a fair bit of the original radio/music due to licensing and they actually went back and patched the game to take it out.

Besides its quite fun to go back in time for these games to get a snapshot of the world sometimes or enjoy simpler features/functions. Also it's harder to make nostalgic memories once you're an adult. So a lot of pining for games like they used to be is just everyone wanting to experience the feeling of awe you get as a child playing video games and only the good games have survived the last 40+ years.

[Andrew Marines]

I've already talked about this in the general thead.

The game's not easy itself. It's easy on the long run tho.

The AI is really bad, it doesn't improve nor adapt. Imagine you're new at the game:

Your "level" is 1. The AI is at level 7.

You slowly start to improve and one day you're at level 10. The ai didn't improve so it's still at level 7. The game starts to feel a bit easy but you love the game so you keep playing.

After thousands of hours you're at level 100. And the ai level? Well... It's still at 7.

That's the main issue. The game becomes boring,  every save becomes the same thing even if you try to limit yourself.

You start to play challenges to get that old spark back again. It probably works the first few times but after not long it's meh again.

I know coding something like this is really difficult but that's what could stop this wave of "is FM really easy?"

Imagine a game where the AI tries to understand and make moves, slowly changing tactics and how they handle transfers for example.

Imagine a game where the ai understands that if the opposition is playing with a double Segundo volante they can play a 2 forwards tactic and score a lot of goals just by counterattacking.

Edit: watch out, I'm not asking to code every single possible combination.

I'm asking that the AI will try to counter the oppositions, making mistakes but learning what works and what not. This would make FM really dynamic and there won't be a "meta" anymore

Edited April 12 by Andrew Marines

[Kickballz]

XaW already pretty much summed this up.

This is a sandbox game. It can be about immersion and escapism for one person, and breaking the game with the ultimate tactics for the next.

This game has never been genuinely difficult - the AI currently cannot compete with a competent human player.

This could very well be different in the future. With the constant advances in AI, it might be a different story in a few years times. Of course, this would not be about SI programming AI. It would be about referring the game to an AI engine. It would 'solve' the game and destroy you.

[CAE82]

After we've played a while, we go into each save with a posteriori knowledge of which tactics/instructions work and which don't, which players are good, which develop well, which players are whingers, which staff are good etc. So it takes a lot of self-discipline to not sign the same players and staff each time and use the same meta tactic. It's actually quite a strange situation for a computer game; I doubt many people play COD and deliberately miss headshots while sniping to make it more interesting! The new features have generally been underwhelming for years now and unfortunately it kind of feels the whole franchise and community is running out of steam and ideas. I've been playing CM/FM for not far off 30 years and am hoping FM25 is a fresh start as I can't see myself playing for much longer if things stay the same. Time becomes harder to find as you get older with a family and career and unfortunately FM is turning into a waste of time.

[Kickballz]

I hear you CAE82, but why would you even care after 30 years?

I am in the same boat, and for me it is just an occasional distraction. Sure, I still find it fun but am I expecting to find the same level of fun I did 30 years ago? Of course not.

[CAE82]

Well, I guess the game has been quite a big part of my life and I'd like to still enjoy it when I do play it. As I said, hopefully FM25 brings the enjoyment back but if not then FM will join the SNES, N64, Xbox etc. and my 'gaming' days will be behind me.

p.s. My 'peak' CM years were High School, particuarly the summer holidays. I'd spend a lot of time at my cousin's and we'd be out playing football during the day and then sleep in shifts overnight so we could keep the seasons going; those were the days!

[El Payaso]

I'm dearly hoping that in the future the game would have at least two different mods which would cater both long-term and new players of the game. And of course those kind of long-term players that like the non-league to legend type of save games that are quite popular I think. 

This would be because these kind of "winning the league in season one with Everton" or "taking my local non league club to the Premier league" don't have anything to do with being challenging or somewhat realistic simulation. But I do accept the fact that some people actually do enjoy this kind of gameplay. 

Currently this is the only mode of the game and this makes it a bit difficult for players like me to play long-term saves or even stay interested after just one season. Winning virtual trophies or always knowing that I am going to be overachieving don't apply to me at all. It was maybe appealing for a couple if first years of the game but I think this repeating record has already been spinning long enough. 

Even though we talk about quite different kind of games, look at what for example the developers of Age of Empires 2 are doing. They are catering all levels of players and making the game all about skill and different skill levels. I for example am not able to beat the hardest AI in campaigns or random maps while some players do it quite easily and trying to achieve that level and losing to the AI is making the game interesting to me. 

On FM I have never been sacked for example and this should actually be the likeliest scenario that you face. I hope that the game developers would also see the bigger picture like this. 

[Kickballz]

Don't hold your breath about fm 25.

3 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I'm dearly hoping that in the future the game would have at least two different mods which would cater both long-term and new players of the game. And of course those kind of long-term players that like the non-league to legend type of save games that are quite popular I think. 

This would be because these kind of "winning the league in season one with Everton" or "taking my local non league club to the Premier league" don't have anything to do with being challenging or somewhat realistic simulation. But I do accept the fact that some people actually do enjoy this kind of gameplay. 

Currently this is the only mode of the game and this makes it a bit difficult for players like me to play long-term saves or even stay interested after just one season. Winning virtual trophies or always knowing that I am going to be overachieving don't apply to me at all. It was maybe appealing for a couple if first years of the game but I think this repeating record has already been spinning long enough. 

Even though we talk about quite different kind of games, look at what for example the developers of Age of Empires 2 are doing. They are catering all levels of players and making the game all about skill and different skill levels. I for example am not able to beat the hardest AI in campaigns or random maps while some players do it quite easily and trying to achieve that level and losing to the AI is making the game interesting to me. 

On FM I have never been sacked for example and this should actually be the likeliest scenario that you face. I hope that the game developers would also see the bigger picture like this. 

They can't just magically make the game more difficult to make it more challenging. Game like Age of Empires 2 use cheats for the AI. FM is as hard as it can be with the current AI. The only way it can currently be made harder would be to introduce a cheating AI like your Age of Empires 2. You do realize that yes? It is not smarter - it is cheating with AI bonuses.

[El Payaso]

58 minutes ago, Kickballz said:

Don't hold your breath about fm 25.

They can't just magically make the game more difficult to make it more challenging. Game like Age of Empires 2 use cheats for the AI. FM is as hard as it can be with the current AI. The only way it can currently be made harder would be to introduce a cheating AI like your Age of Empires 2. You do realize that yes? It is not smarter - it is cheating with AI bonuses.

That isn't true. For example, Rashidi has mentioned several times in the past that SI has been able to produce way more challenging AI in the beta phase of the game that the testers had difficulties beating. So, this is not down to a limitation as far as I know.

[Kickballz]

27 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

That isn't true. For example, Rashidi has mentioned several times in the past that SI has been able to produce way more challenging AI in the beta phase of the game that the testers had difficulties beating. So, this is not down to a limitation as far as I know.

Not really, because that is a different debate.

Context matters, and I'm not really interested in this discussion where you are arguing in bad faith. It was clear I was discussing the parallels with AoE2.

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, Kickballz said:

Don't hold your breath about fm 25.

They can't just magically make the game more difficult to make it more challenging. Game like Age of Empires 2 use cheats for the AI. FM is as hard as it can be with the current AI. The only way it can currently be made harder would be to introduce a cheating AI like your Age of Empires 2. You do realize that yes? It is not smarter - it is cheating with AI bonuses.

AI used to (and maybe still does) copy successful tactics from other AI and human managers. AI squad building was much better 10, 20 years ago too. 

[El Payaso]

8 minutes ago, Mitja said:

AI used to (and maybe still does) copy successful tactics from other AI and human managers. AI squad building was much better 10, 20 years ago too. 

And so it should be. And also the importance of tactics should go down in my opinion and the quality of players should on the other hand matter more. If you have a limited quality in players, you should not be able to fix this with just the right tactic. 

[Kickballz]

16 minutes ago, Mitja said:

AI used to (and maybe still does) copy successful tactics from other AI and human managers. AI squad building was much better 10, 20 years ago too. 

This is not true.

It was always based on reputation. When a player reached a high reputation they would find the AI changed tactics. Players often thought that the AI has worked out their tactics. It was simply the AI playing more defensive because of the higher rep.

Edited April 12 by Kickballz

[phnompenhandy]

Maybe this thread should be stickied. The same damned question comes up time and again, and the same arguments are rehashed over and over.

[Kickballz]

10 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Maybe this thread should be stickied. The same damned question comes up time and again, and the same arguments are rehashed over and over.

Spoken like a true curmudgeon with an impressive eighteen thousand posts. I don't think anyone is surprised that you have seen every argument rehashed by now.

You are probably right though.

 

[Rodrigogc]

The game has become easier, and I think the reason is poor AI squad building and management. I've played FM07,08 and 13 in the last few weeks, and even though AI back in those days didn't adapt in-match as much as it does nowadays, matches against stronger teams were harder because they would always play their best players and were wiser on their squad building. Current AI is too stupid, you play strong teams and they simply leave great players out, spend huge amounts of money on players they won't even leave on the bench, etc..

I ported my St Pauli save in FM23 to play in FM24, and the first game against Bayern Munchen they played Wirtz as a right winger and marcos leonardo as a CM. It's frustrating. 

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, Kickballz said:

It was always based on reputation. When a player reached a high reputation they would find the AI changed tactics. Players often thought that the AI has worked out their tactics. It was simply the AI playing more defensive because of the higher rep.

That is another thing. There is Rashidi`s post in feedback thread talking about AI copying other tactics. I`m sure we have all experienced it.

[Kickballz]

12 minutes ago, Mitja said:

That is another thing. There is Rashidi`s post in feedback thread talking about AI copying other tactics. I`m sure we have all experienced it.

That is  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

[El Payaso]

3 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

 FM07

I think FM 2007 was a fantastic game in terms of transfers. The AI worked so that if you placed a bid for a player that was listed as wanted by AI clubs, they would immediately also bid for the player. For years it has been such that even if a player had ten AI clubs interest in him and when you place a bid, none of them competes against you. Not even if it would be a bargain if a century. 

I remember also that in this version in small countries like Finland it was very difficult to improve the squad. Practically no one wanted to come from abroad and if you managed to get a newgen, Norwegian and Danish clubs would soon come after them. Some better players even won the Champions League with Finnish clubs (usually by signing some of well-known starlets in the game) but I even found it difficult to make it to the group stage. 

The last time I played in Finland was on FM 2019 where I guided RoPS from Rovaniemi to the Europa League groups and to Finnish championship in the first season while in real life that season's team was the worst in history of the Finnish top-tier, only winning two games the whole season if I remember correctly. 

Yeah, and I also signed Maicon to that club by paying him a bag of peanuts a week. Such amount of money that you wouldn't even pay a rent in Finland. 

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, El Payaso disse:

I think FM 2007 was a fantastic game in terms of transfers. The AI worked so that if you placed a bid for a player that was listed as wanted by AI clubs, they would immediately also bid for the player. For years it has been such that even if a player had ten AI clubs interest in him and when you place a bid, none of them competes against you. Not even if it would be a bargain if a century. 

I remember also that in this version in small countries like Finland it was very difficult to improve the squad. Practically no one wanted to come from abroad and if you managed to get a newgen, Norwegian and Danish clubs would soon come after them. Some better players even won the Champions League with Finnish clubs (usually by signing some of well-known starlets in the game) but I even found it difficult to make it to the group stage. 

The last time I played in Finland was on FM 2019 where I guided RoPS from Rovaniemi to the Europa League groups and to Finnish championship in the first season while in real life that season's team was the worst in history of the Finnish top-tier, only winning two games the whole season if I remember correctly. 

Yeah, and I also signed Maicon to that club by paying him a bag of peanuts a week. Such amount of money that you wouldn't even pay a rent in Finland. 

Yes, FM07 in terms of difficulty was spot on. Smarter AI, constantly scouting and bidding for players, balanced newgens... Nowadays I feel it is too easy to get the best wonderkids for example. Taking the St Pauli save I mentioned, I simply got to buy 2 of the best 5 wonderkids in the game (I looked the best ones in FMRTE after finishing the save),  without competition and paying a reasonable price.

The massive gap between human squad building and AI squad building is probably what made people look for attributeless skins to make the game challenging. To be honest, I don't remember people considering playing attributeless in FM07,08..  

[El Payaso]

9 hours ago, Kickballz said:

Not really, because that is a different debate.

Context matters, and I'm not really interested in this discussion where you are arguing in bad faith. It was clear I was discussing the parallels with AoE2.

Arguing? And in bad faith? I don't follow.

I don't tend to study these kind if things but hadn't ever heard or thought that the AI would cheat on AOE 2. With a quick googling I found just some declarations that this is not the case. 

As this is a football manager forum, I didn't pay much attention to the things you wrote about AOE. Just wanted to correct you on the statement about FM's AI. 

And I do apologise if you understood my writing as some kind of arguing. 

Edited April 12 by El Payaso

[squirrel_plays_fm]

Yes on one level it's a bit solvable and therefore 'easy' but I find taking on the harder challenges in the game is still plenty of fun.

Taking on a club with massive debts is a favourite of mine.

This year I've done a pentagon challenge, and to do that 'properly' and get around the five continental challenges in the shortest amount of time is great fun and hasn't been easy for me

[Kickballz]

1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

Arguing? And in bad faith? I don't follow.

I don't tend to study these kind if things but hasn't even heard that the AI would cheat on AOE 2. With a quick googling I found just some declarations that it doesn't. 

As this is a football manager forum, I didn't pay much attention to the things you wrote about AOE. Just wanted to correct you on the statement about FM's AI. 

And I do apologise if you understood my writing as some kind of arguing. 

Yeah, sorry as well. I didn't word it very well, and sometimes I can probably be too strong with my wording. I will work on that.

I don't have a problem with what you are saying. We might not completely agree, but I never thought we were having an argument, so sorry if I came across that way,

Edited April 12 by Kickballz

[Etebaer]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb El Payaso:

I think FM 2007 was a fantastic game in terms of transfers. The AI worked so that if you placed a bid for a player that was listed as wanted by AI clubs, they would immediately also bid for the player.

 

Well, usualy exactly that happens to me that i make a bid for a player and if he is any good AI Clubs like Sharks reap my bid apart - i need to be ultra agressive doing bids even b4 the scouting is anywhere close to a conclusion so i may be able to grab a player.

Yet i play lower league clubs and i guess at some point transfers become easy when your club reputation and team power projection align to outclass the other bidders and suddenly you cant hire all the great talent that is thrown at you for lack of space.

I feel its a balance issue...

Edited April 12 by Etebaer