Most Balanced Match Engine?

[g1nh0]

5 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Mourinho was fired by Roma a few weeks ago and has been replaced by Danielle De Rossi, who has immediately increased the tempo and attacking intent of the team. That's what you saw against Inter.

It is correct that while at Roma Mourinho was restricted by severe financial limitations and was overly dependent on injury-prone players like Dybala. However, he also perseveres with very negative tactics which don't bring results and eventually alienates the fans even before he starts to bring the toxic behaviour. He's at least a decade past his time.

Proved my point perfectly about being misunderstood

[NineCloudNine]

20 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Proved my point perfectly about being misunderstood

How so? 10-20 years ago Mourinho was a breath of fresh air, charismatic and tactically innovative. He transformed Chelsea and Inter and took them to trophies they would not otherwise have won. From Real Madrid onwards he has not adapted to the changing modern game and has increased the toxic and deeply unpleasant behaviour as he has become more and more bitter. It's very sad actually. At Roma he won a 4th-tier tin-pot trophy no-one cares about and lost one of the ugliest finals in European football history. His berating of the referee after the game should have seen him banned for a very long time. Roma's league position didn't improve under him and they played ugly, negative football.

I don't disagree with you about the loss of variety in the modern game and there should be a place for defence-first tactics. But basing that argument on Jose Mourinho being a misunderstood modern football tactical guru doesn't help make that case. The game has left him behind. There are much more interesting examples of defence-first modern managers.

Edited February 17 by NineCloudNine

[g1nh0]

5 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

How so? 10-20 years ago Mourinho was a breath of fresh air, charismatic and tactically innovative. He transformed Chelsea and Inter and took them to trophies they would not otherwise have won. From Real Madrid onwards he has not adapted to the changing modern game and has increased the toxic and deeply unpleasant behaviour as he has become more and more bitter. It's very sad actually. At Roma he won a 4th-tier tin-pot trophy no-one cares about and lost one of the ugliest finals in European football history. His berating of the referee after the game should have seen him banned for a very long time. Roma's league position didn't improve under him and they played ugly, negative football.

I don't disagree with you about the loss of variety in the modern game and there should be a place for defence-first tactics. But basing that argument on Jose Mourinho being a misunderstood modern football tactical guru doesn't help make that case. The game has left him behind. There are much more interesting examples of defence-first modern managers.

Well, you can just look at Carlo Ancelotti for instance. He didn't achieve anything at Everton. I mean he didn't do bad, but despite being given players and breaking their bank he never actually achieved anything there, and zero trophies. Big Sam did a better job in his time there.

First chance at a big club again that backs him, look at what he's achieved since at Real Madrid. It's a perfect club fit for him.

Jose hasn't been at a big club nor been backed for many years. So I don't think you can judge him properly on his more recent jobs. Only if he's given a job at a top club, I think we can actually make a fair judgement. And still even with his more recent clubs, he's been winning trophies, and at United no manager has done has well as him post SAF.

Personally, I'd love to see him get the Bayern job. A club with a winning mentality, that will have to play on the front foot to a good extent. Jose with a winning mentality too, and will be in a league environment very similar to that he had to face in Spain. He will also have players more capable of playing offensively - but, Bayern do need recruitment where they need a DM and someone to replace Upamecano who is an absolute liability to that team.

[NineCloudNine]

28 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Personally, I'd love to see him get the Bayern job. A club with a winning mentality, that will have to play on the front foot to a good extent. Jose with a winning mentality too, and will be in a league environment very similar to that he had to face in Spain. He will also have players more capable of playing offensively - but, Bayern do need recruitment where they need a DM and someone to replace Upamecano who is an absolute liability to that team.

I'm afraid that's even more of a fantasy than your list of hopes for FM .

Aside from the discussion about his tactical acumen, his behaviour is toxic. He has fallen out with players, management and fans at his last five jobs. Bayern is massively ego-heavy and political. He'd clash with his bosses from day one and the players would not put up with his management style. The football world has moved on and Mourinho has been left behind.

None of which alters your original correct point that it should be possible to play defence-first football in FM, even if the realities of the modern game mean that this will always be a difficult path to tread.

[g1nh0]

33 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I'm afraid that's even more of a fantasy than your list of hopes for FM .

Aside from the discussion about his tactical acumen, his behaviour is toxic. He has fallen out with players, management and fans at his last five jobs. Bayern is massively ego-heavy and political. He'd clash with his bosses from day one and the players would not put up with his management style. The football world has moved on and Mourinho has been left behind.

None of which alters your original correct point that it should be possible to play defence-first football in FM, even if the realities of the modern game mean that this will always be a difficult path to tread.

Heh, and likewise I wouldn't have expected you to change a set opinion on Jose  He's marmite, to the point an opinion of him cannot ever change!

But for me, as a manager in order to implement your philosophy successfully, you need the right players and full backing from the board to bring those players in. Pep has it, Klopp has it, Carlo has it, Jose hasn't had it in ages - and that is a fact that can't be argued.

However I do agree football has moved on, and it is harder to implement his philosophy especially with the introduction of VAR which is more beneficial to the offensive team - so where before he was able to produce miracles with teams (Inter, Porto, Real toppling a prime Barca), now when it comes to the league, it is that much more difficult to play a more counter-attacking based style highly effectively on a consistent basis.

And so he would need to be more offensive than his usual default pragmatic stance - but he hasn't had the personnel to allow him to play a more offensive style which he's comfortable with - that being defenders he has confidence in. (And so perhaps that's something he would need to be more inclined to take risks with, altering a style with poor defenders at the back - or in Ange's case, dont play CBs, play full backs there instead lol.)

I still think with the right club behind him, and the right players / squad depth available (like all the top perceived managers have had now for donkeys years) he can do a really good job - because irrespective of his more recent jobs with inferior players and inadequate backing, he still keeps winning things. 

And that's why I do think Bayern would also be good from a tactical perspective, he will have to play more on the front foot more frequently. Bayern board can be demanding, but if they were to strike a deal saying "we'll back you in the market, if you play a style more associated with your stint at Real Madrid", then I think it could actually be a partnership that can work extremely well.

He'll also be able to get the most out of Harry Kane for a few years, and maybe get him a trophy which he won't be getting now this year lol

Edited February 17 by g1nh0

[NineCloudNine]

27 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Heh, and likewise I wouldn't have expected you to change a set opinion on Jose  He's marmite, to the point an opinion of him cannot ever change!

I'm managing Roma in FM at the moment, which ofc meant Mourinho got sacked to make way for me. I've made an enemy of him in the game and take every opportunity to wind him up and put him down. Needless to say he reacts to everything, which makes it all the more entertaining. He got the Napoli job in early 2024 and we've got quite the rivalry going now.

[g1nh0]

12 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I'm managing Roma in FM at the moment, which ofc meant Mourinho got sacked to make way for me. I've made an enemy of him in the game and take every opportunity to wind him up and put him down. Needless to say he reacts to everything, which makes it all the more entertaining. He got the Napoli job in early 2024 and we've got quite the rivalry going now.

Lol, sounds like your the perfect fellow rival for him  ... common Jose!

I haven't really got into a single player game tbh not recently anyway, mainly in part due to all the game issues which no more needs to be said about now. But I'm hoping in a few weeks I might be able to get something going again in the new patch. Not sure what club I will go for, but no chance of it being Roma now for obvious reasons!

Haven't been Newcastle yet....maybe the Toon, hoping they'll still have money available.

[Purple]

For me I found fm 2018 to be the most balanced out of the recent fms. I Also had success playing many different types of formations and tactical styles.

[Purple]

Also I believe the game became bloated outside of the ME after this version.

[akkm]

40 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Heh, and likewise I wouldn't have expected you to change a set opinion on Jose  He's marmite, to the point an opinion of him cannot ever change!

But for me, as a manager in order to implement your philosophy successfully, you need the right players and full backing from the board to bring those players in. Pep has it, Klopp has it, Carlo has it, Jose hasn't had it in ages - and that is a fact that can't be argued.

However I do agree football has moved on, and it is harder to implement his philosophy especially with the introduction of VAR which is more beneficial to the offensive team - so where before he was able to produce miracles with teams (Inter, Porto, Real toppling a prime Barca), now when it comes to the league, it is that much more difficult to play a more counter-attacking based style highly effectively on a consistent basis.

And so he would need to be more offensive than his usual default pragmatic stance - but he hasn't had the personnel to allow him to play a more offensive style which he's comfortable with - that being defenders he has confidence in. (And so perhaps that's something he would need to be more inclined to take risks with, altering a style with poor defenders at the back - or in Ange's case, dont play CBs, play full backs there instead lol.)

I still think with the right club behind him, and the right players / squad depth available (like all the top perceived managers have had now for donkeys years) he can do a really good job - because irrespective of his more recent jobs with inferior players and inadequate backing, he still keeps winning things. 

And that's why I do think Bayern would also be good from a tactical perspective, he will have to play more on the front foot more frequently. Bayern board can be demanding, but if they were to strike a deal saying "we'll back you in the market, if you play a style more associated with your stint at Real Madrid", then I think it could actually be a partnership that can work extremely well.

He'll also be able to get the most out of Harry Kane for a few years, and maybe get him a trophy which he won't be getting now this year lol

Some great posts @g1nh0

I actually think mourinho is a fraud but won't even get into that  as ultimately you're correct in what you said earlier that any manager is only as good as the players they have. One thing that doesn't help mourinho or anyone trying to implement cagey park the bus tactics is the level of defenders has declined over the years so he wouldn't have the personnel to implement what he wants as well as they would have done in the past. 

Yeah modern football has changed with more running/pressing and all that but that's displaced quality to an extent. Anyway, there's always been hard work, intensity and pressing but fitness/nutrition of modern players enables it to be tapped into more. Also drop off in player quality can make elements of it more effective.

On gegen, taking it back to its most prominent proponent...I'm a Liverpool fan and they've been garbage in many games this year yet still churn out results so it's not the system of klopps that's ultimately producing results more the quality of the players at his disposal and more particularly the forwards. His system actually produces crappy performances regularly...yeah sure they work tremendously hard, press ferociously and all that but the amount of average to bad performances that result in wins shows the players he has keep bailing him/the system out. Even in klopps peak liverpool years they didn't play well plenty of times. Then the down years are farcical...without the ferocious press liverpool churn out abysmal performances and you can see some elements of what they're being coached outside of gegen is poor...some of the basics of liverpools play is dreadful in those down years. Take Newcastle...under howe last year did very well but intensity this season hasn't been same level and performances and results haven't been as good. So gegen isn't what many perceive it to be in real world football. 

FM's implementation of the inefficiencies of gegen is not done well. They don't simulate effect of fatigue in games, over a season or knock ons for other seasons. The intensity required and the resultant knock ons just aren't done well yet in FM. 

The other key piece is proper creative and technical elements of football aren't well simulated in FM so gegen isn't exposed as well as it should be and in general more possession based tactics lack the tools to open up and create in more varied ways. It's the biggest part missing this year. One of big things is teams/players cannot operate well in the top third or in tighter spaces compared to the real world and then the weighting of passes is generally off both of which make things too restrictive and can make for repeated patterns and a banal experience. 

Also re gegen in the real world isn't as prevalent as people think. Sure, teams run and press more, high & low but that doesn't necessarily constitute gegen. Lots of teams combine it with other elements of possession football. City are ultimately a possession team but combine it with situational variations of pressing/counter pressing and tempo and that's how football is. Unfortunately that isn't possible in FM's match engine the way City do it with on the ball. Some may think it is or recommend tactical forums etc but that’s just not the case.

This weak simulation of the on the ball passing and movement and it’s one of reasons FM engine is lacking.

Again back to the real world Klopps Liverpool have played Real Madrid on 4 occasions and been beaten or knocked out each time. So the ultimate gegenpressing machine isn’t as efficient as people perceive it to be. There’s a better way of playing as city’s template has proven as well. 

For sure modern football has more speed, pressing, more elements of transitions but the basics of passing and movement and creativity are never going away. 

Take Modric…a small statured man listed as 5.8 and less than 11 stone and not what would be drawn up as the archetypal athlete but in an era where physical elements, pressing, power etc have increased Modric has had little difficulty in navigating that and has arguably been even more effective through the years. For one thing I checked on his whoscored stats and his dispossessed per game stats have decreased after he turned 30…so in current era where pressing etc has supposedly made it harder to keep the ball he’s actually found it easier to retain possession. So that means it’s not as hard as people perceive it…if the player is good enough they can do it. Sure, Modric is a top player but he shouldn’t be finding it easier in his 30s especially if things have supposedly got harder…that’s not how things work lol. 

All of this with Modric simply passes the eye test…his movement around the pitch identifying small pockets of space and angles to give team mates options to pass to and positioning of his body to receive it, retain it and move it around is something lacking in many modern day players…it’s simple but incredibly effective game intelligence. More players exhibiting these skills would mean press breaking would be more effective than it currently is.

Another one is I’m watching City vs Chelsea match and FM isn’t simulating someone like Cole Palmer in terms of poise, movement and pass selection at all well meaning it’s almost pointless trying to set up certain ways to try and get quality creative and technical players to utilise their skillset which essentially means this year match engine is unbalanced and lacking in some basic fundamentals of football. It needs lots of work yet

 

[g1nh0]

5 minutes ago, akkm said:

Some great posts @g1nh0

I actually think mourinho is a fraud but won't even get into that  as ultimately you're correct in what you said earlier that any manager is only as good as the players they have. One thing that doesn't help mourinho or anyone trying to implement cagey park the bus tactics is the level of defenders has declined over the years so he wouldn't have the personnel to implement what he wants as well as they would have done in the past. 

Yeah modern football has changed with more running/pressing and all that but that's displaced quality to an extent. Anyway, there's always been hard work, intensity and pressing but fitness/nutrition of modern players enables it to be tapped into more. Also drop off in player quality can make elements of it more effective.

On gegen, taking it back to its most prominent proponent...I'm a Liverpool fan and they've been garbage in many games this year yet still churn out results so it's not the system of klopps that's ultimately producing results more the quality of the players at his disposal and more particularly the forwards. His system actually produces crappy performances regularly...yeah sure they work tremendously hard, press ferociously and all that but the amount of average to bad performances that result in wins shows the players he has keep bailing him/the system out. Even in klopps peak liverpool years they didn't play well plenty of times. Then the down years are farcical...without the ferocious press liverpool churn out abysmal performances and you can see some elements of what they're being coached outside of gegen is poor...some of the basics of liverpools play is dreadful in those down years. Take Newcastle...under howe last year did very well but intensity this season hasn't been same level and performances and results haven't been as good. So gegen isn't what many perceive it to be in real world football. 

FM's implementation of the inefficiencies of gegen is not done well. They don't simulate effect of fatigue in games, over a season or knock ons for other seasons. The intensity required and the resultant knock ons just aren't done well yet in FM. 

The other key piece is proper creative and technical elements of football aren't well simulated in FM so gegen isn't exposed as well as it should be and in general more possession based tactics lack the tools to open up and create in more varied ways. It's the biggest part missing this year. One of big things is teams/players cannot operate well in the top third or in tighter spaces compared to the real world and then the weighting of passes is generally off both of which make things too restrictive and can make for repeated patterns and a banal experience. 

Also re gegen in the real world isn't as prevalent as people think. Sure, teams run and press more, high & low but that doesn't necessarily constitute gegen. Lots of teams combine it with other elements of possession football. City are ultimately a possession team but combine it with situational variations of pressing/counter pressing and tempo and that's how football is. Unfortunately that isn't possible in FM's match engine the way City do it with on the ball. Some may think it is or recommend tactical forums etc but that’s just not the case.

This weak simulation of the on the ball passing and movement and it’s one of reasons FM engine is lacking.

Again back to the real world Klopps Liverpool have played Real Madrid on 4 occasions and been beaten or knocked out each time. So the ultimate gegenpressing machine isn’t as efficient as people perceive it to be. There’s a better way of playing as city’s template has proven as well. 

For sure modern football has more speed, pressing, more elements of transitions but the basics of passing and movement and creativity are never going away. 

Take Modric…a small statured man listed as 5.8 and less than 11 stone and not what would be drawn up as the archetypal athlete but in an era where physical elements, pressing, power etc have increased Modric has had little difficulty in navigating that and has arguably been even more effective through the years. For one thing I checked on his whoscored stats and his dispossessed per game stats have decreased after he turned 30…so in current era where pressing etc has supposedly made it harder to keep the ball he’s actually found it easier to retain possession. So that means it’s not as hard as people perceive it…if the player is good enough they can do it. Sure, Modric is a top player but he shouldn’t be finding it easier in his 30s especially if things have supposedly got harder…that’s not how things work lol. 

All of this with Modric simply passes the eye test…his movement around the pitch identifying small pockets of space and angles to give team mates options to pass to and positioning of his body to receive it, retain it and move it around is something lacking in many modern day players…it’s simple but incredibly effective game intelligence. More players exhibiting these skills would mean press breaking would be more effective than it currently is.

Another one is I’m watching City vs Chelsea match and FM isn’t simulating someone like Cole Palmer in terms of poise, movement and pass selection at all well meaning it’s almost pointless trying to set up certain ways to try and get quality creative and technical players to utilise their skillset which essentially means this year match engine is unbalanced and lacking in some basic fundamentals of football. It needs lots of work yet

 

Great post too, and can't disagree with any of it - well apart from the fraud thing with JM  

But, you say fraud - he's probably the one manager that's proven it with different standards of football clubs especially at his peak and at an elite level. But he did have as you correctly point out, manage players in a period where players could, and enjoyed defending, but also where players had an attitude of doing their best for the club, their manager, and ultimately wanted success on the pitch.

Nowadays players don't have that care or ambition, and just look forward to their weekly pay cheque. And I think that attitude also can be pushed when it comes to actually playing football - players will probably enjoy playing more with the football, rather than playing without it. And that makes it hard to achieve prolonged / sustained success with a more pragmatic style compared to a Pep approach where players will enjoy playing with the football - but recognising in order to do that, they need to work very hard with the counter-press to regain the ball back as quickly as possible.

There should always be room for special players that can make the difference, and why I think in FM terms I'd really like those more exquisite roles to shine, with the players capable of performing it at the elite level - providing there is a tactical balance to allow it. Though, I do think it will always be tricky to derive everything from statistics. Because I guess the Spanish league being more Tiki Taka in style, will not be as intense as other leagues, in addition with Modric being at a club where inferior sides will setup more pragmatically.

I also think not everything can be derived from statistics, but sometimes you just need to watch the player and know - like Ronaldinho or Zidane, maybe not statistically the best, but I don't think anything else needs explaining with those fellas!

And it isn't always just managers being as good as their players, but an individual player may only ever be as good as his team too. Messi shone at Barca, but at PSG never really did it, despite being in a league vs worse sides.

So one could also make an argument as to why C Ronaldo is superior to Messi, as he can probably shine in any side, because he can probably play in more positions and different tactical systems compared to Messi.

But as with your posts clearly showing how the ME is lacking to reflect real life, I guess my expectations for at least this last patch and near future, would be to take steps to maximise the potential of what is currently available (which is simple concepts of football that can work well and in the correct game profile / situations), and what should next be prioritised to enable greater intricacies of tactics that rely much more open attributes being weighted / balanced much more accurately.

If that functions extremely well, you can set boundaries / requirements that will affect how effective a given tactical style is / or be suitable to be employed by the players in your squad and the attributes that they have, and relative to the competition they are in. It will also allow those more exquisite roles to work really well if the player has a super high ability to carry it out.

This also extends to fatigue management with gegenpressing, where again attributes will be a critical element to be able to find a more realistic balance / effects employing that system would have on injuries and fatigue throughout not just one season, but those thereafter as players will ultimately burnout if it is too intense for a substantial period of time.

But, hard to tell how close / far that away that will be. But for me, at this moment, the game has considerably regressed from FM23 with these very basic concepts that should be in place to mimic some degree of football realism.

Once that has been understood and executed to a good level, then I would like to think there would be an aim to then be more ambitious and work on the attribute side and try to push the game to a greater level.

[Rodrigogc]

 

 

I think these two black spaces are basically where FM has been lacking to focus on. We see little creative play going on in these spaces, and I'm not talking about assist coming from there, I'm talking about passing and involvement of players. Whenever I play and the ball enters the black space, usually what happens is the players will move the ball to wide areas and cross. Not that it doesn't happen IRL, but FM is almost certain it will happen. It makes the ME very dull and predictable, since wide play is OP and dumb players like Adama Traore and Dembele benefit from the imbalance of the ME. 

Edited February 17 by Rodrigogc

[akkm]

11 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Great post too, and can't disagree with any of it - well apart from the fraud thing with JM  

But, you say fraud - he's probably the one manager that's proven it with different standards of football clubs especially at his peak and at an elite level. But he did have as you correctly point out, manage players in a period where players could, and enjoyed defending, but also where players had an attitude of doing their best for the club, their manager, and ultimately wanted success on the pitch.

Nowadays players don't have that care or ambition, and just look forward to their weekly pay cheque. And I think that attitude also can be pushed when it comes to actually playing football - players will probably enjoy playing more with the football, rather than playing without it. And that makes it hard to achieve prolonged / sustained success with a more pragmatic style compared to a Pep approach where players will enjoy playing with the football - but recognising in order to do that, they need to work very hard with the counter-press to regain the ball back as quickly as possible.

There should always be room for special players that can make the difference, and why I think in FM terms I'd really like those more exquisite roles to shine, with the players capable of performing it at the elite level - providing there is a tactical balance to allow it. Though, I do think it will always be tricky to derive everything from statistics. Because I guess the Spanish league being more Tiki Taka in style, will not be as intense as other leagues, in addition with Modric being at a club where inferior sides will setup more pragmatically.

I also think not everything can be derived from statistics, but sometimes you just need to watch the player and know - like Ronaldinho or Zidane, maybe not statistically the best, but I don't think anything else needs explaining with those fellas!

And it isn't always just managers being as good as their players, but an individual player may only ever be as good as his team too. Messi shone at Barca, but at PSG never really did it, despite being in a league vs worse sides.

So one could also make an argument as to why C Ronaldo is superior to Messi, as he can probably shine in any side, because he can probably play in more positions and different tactical systems compared to Messi.

But as with your posts clearly showing how the ME is lacking to reflect real life, I guess my expectations for at least this last patch and near future, would be to take steps to maximise the potential of what is currently available (which is simple concepts of football that can work well and in the correct game profile / situations), and what should next be prioritised to enable greater intricacies of tactics that rely much more open attributes being weighted / balanced much more accurately.

If that functions extremely well, you can set boundaries / requirements that will affect how effective a given tactical style is / or be suitable to be employed by the players in your squad and the attributes that they have, and relative to the competition they are in. It will also allow those more exquisite roles to work really well if the player has a super high ability to carry it out.

This also extends to fatigue management with gegenpressing, where again attributes will be a critical element to be able to find a more realistic balance / effects employing that system would have on injuries and fatigue throughout not just one season, but those thereafter as players will ultimately burnout if it is too intense for a substantial period of time.

But, hard to tell how close / far that away that will be. But for me, at this moment, the game has considerably regressed from FM23 with these very basic concepts that should be in place to mimic some degree of football realism.

Once that has been understood and executed to a good level, then I would like to think there would be an aim to then be more ambitious and work on the attribute side and try to push the game to a greater level.

Yeah I read before jose allude to changes in players' character over the years means they don't have the appetite to do certain things they used to. For sure modern players seeing others play more front foot football has affected jose's more recent teams as they get sick of playing the way jose wants them to and won't sustain the effort or concentration levels over time.

Agree on thinking outside stats which is why I mentioned the eye test re modric...and the others as you mention and many many more as well.

Re messi vs ronaldo...hard no there . Messi effectively switched off at club level after he left barca...plus his legs were really already gone and I feel he saved as much as he could of himself for one last hurrah at the world cup...which kinda worked out . One could argue ronaldo could shine in any side as a goalscorer...similar to how haaland could...but haaland is a donkey really lol. So I think a great goalscorer and a great player are 2 different things. Messi still did shine at psg just not as brightly as his peak....messi also shone at the world cup and the one they lost...where ronaldo didn't really shine at any world cup. Messi exhibited a much higher degree of quality than ronaldo ever did outside goalscoring measures...except perhaps heading/right foot . Also, messi could play up top, right wing, left wing, #10 and he could very easily have played in deeper positions than that...at his peak with fully functional legs he could have played in midfield and ran the show with consummate ease and been very creative. Ron was limited in terms of what he could do vs messi. 

In terms of different tactical systems though ron often needed more space to operate in than messi to shine. In premiership days under fergie English teams defending wasn't stellar (and at times stupidly high up the pitch lol) and plenty of ronaldo highlights were him running into big spaces. Similarly jose at madrid was happy to use him on the counter to score lots...as he needed the space to run into. Messi at barca invariably came up against deep lying defences which is harder yet messi did alright lol.

Also, ronaldo effectively did little to contribute besides scoring and making runs into certain paths and had others (like benzema) do a lot of his work and was carried more so this was more restrictive to how a team could play where messi (until his legs went) was more involved in build up play meaning more variation in attacking play was achievable. At man utd 2nd effort ron scored but the team became too one dimensional and easily stopped because of ronaldo.

Overall I do get your point though that a player wouldn't necessarily shine as bright in lesser teams surrounded by lesser players. Perhaps maradona and the real (brazilian) ronaldo shone bright no matter who they played with.

 

The rest re FM I wholeheartedly agree with you on what changes are required and at this stage just should happen. My feeling is they've moved on to next year though on the match engine but fingers crossed they will employ the strategy as you've described above as is it's time to get things in a better state 

 

[dannyfc]

15 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

 

 

I think these two black spaces are basically where FM has been lacking to focus on. We see little creative play going on in these spaces, and I'm not talking about assist coming from there, I'm talking about passing and involvement of players. Whenever I play and the ball enters the black space, usually what happens is the players will move the ball to wide areas and cross. Not that it doesn't happen IRL, but FM is almost certain it will happen. It makes the ME very dull and predictable, since wide play is OP and dumb players like Adama Traore and Dembele benefit from the imbalance of the ME. 

Fully agree - I think the game struggles to properly simulate close control in tight spaces which is why play often gets funneled wide where there's more space. 

Players are too risk adverse to holding on to the ball when play gets congested. It's largely why technically brilliant players are less effective than physical ones in the match engine. 

I'm sure it's got a lot worse since FM 19 but may be remembering the older versions through rose tinted glasses. 

[Muja]

Il 18/2/2024 in 12:46 , dannyfc ha scritto:

I'm sure it's got a lot worse since FM 19 but may be remembering the older versions through rose tinted glasses. 

Can confirm it's been getting worse since FM 2017.
FM19 and FM20 were the worst, FM23 was a bit better but then this year's edition is very very bad again. 
It's a real pity because overall FM24 is the best ME in recent years, if it wasn't for this problem it'd be the very best ever.

[Litmanen 10]

43 minutes ago, Muja said:

Can confirm it's been getting worse since FM 2017.
FM19 and FM20 were the worst, FM23 was a bit better but then this year's edition is very very bad again. 
It's a real pity because overall FM24 is the best ME in recent years, if it wasn't for this problem it'd be the very best ever.

Are you really telling us that FM 2017 had a good match engine? 

[Muja]

3 minuti fa, Litmanen 10 ha scritto:

Are you really telling us that FM 2017 had a good match engine? 

No, I was referring to the central final third problem.
Since FM17 that zone of the pitch has become more and more problematic. 

[dubbed5]

On 17/02/2024 at 12:25, g1nh0 said:

And to add to that, what compounds the misery with this year's game is gegenpressing plus two DM-S in every tactic. This literally combined together breaks the game, and has completely ruined my enjoyment of playing several tactics, especially playing online where nearly every player abuses this clear exploit of an ME which currently this year is not fit for purpose.

I downloaded one of those top tactics to check how it performs with Luton (predicted to finish 20th).

A crazy, reckless tactic that shouldn't work with the weakest team in the league.
Maximum intensity, ultra-hard pressing for 90 minutes.
Attacking mentality, a very high defensive line and hard tackling.

Match engine loves it though:

Jacob Brown scored more than Haaland and Ross Barkley is the league's best player.

 

Bell has the 2nd highest assist count. This maestro...

 

Setting up a similar tactic in FM 13 with the 20th predicted team.

 

Seems way more realistic.

 

Adopting a more cautious tactical approach, as opposed to an all-out attacking, high-pressing one, used to yield better results for underdog teams.

 

[g1nh0]

2 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

I downloaded one of those top tactics to check how it performs with Luton (predicted to finish 20th).

A crazy, reckless tactic that shouldn't work with the weakest team in the league.
Maximum intensity, ultra-hard pressing for 90 minutes.
Attacking mentality, a very high defensive line and hard tackling.

Match engine loves it though:

Jacob Brown scored more than Haaland and Ross Barkley is the league's best player.

 

Bell has the 2nd highest assist count. This maestro...

 

Setting up a similar tactic in FM 13 with the 20th predicted team.

 

Seems way more realistic.

 

Adopting a more cautious tactical approach, as opposed to an all-out attacking, high-pressing one, used to yield better results for underdog teams.

 

Oh my, how far the engine has declined! I'm guessing as well, as you would expect from this tactic and roles, there would be a lack of goals with a lack of a naturally more creative DM role, and no Trequartista to roam to compensate in the FM13 test?

The fact Jacob Brown is currently the top scorer in the recent test is an absolute joke, very good example of what's wrong - and yes, this is one of the current main tactics that is being abused by everybody in the current patch and is at the moment the tactical genius "I win" button lol.

Something has gone very wrong as you're right, the results do seem much more what I would expect from your tests and a cautious approach on the older FM13 version being useable for this profile club. Great example.

[dubbed5]

On 17/02/2024 at 18:28, g1nh0 said:

What clubs has Mourinho been at since Klopp started winning trophies? He's been at teams far inferior to Liverpool and had no backing in the transfer market (not at least with him getting his prime targets). He's also lately not had one season at Roma without an injury crisis that lasts under half a season. And yet he's still got them to two Euro finals with one victory.

As a manager, you're only as good as your team at the end of the day. Klopp when he first came in at Pool was struggling in mid-table, until he was backed and brought in world class players. Pep had a tough first season at City, they then splashed the cash each year and we all know the rest. 

 

Very true. How would Klopp's gegenpressing perform if he's managing a team like Luton or Sheffield, without the luxury of one of the strongest squads in the league?

Many people seem to have forgotten that he didn't bring immediate success to Liverpool.

2015/16 - 8th (21 points behind Leicester)
2016/17 - 4th (17 points behind Conte's Chelsea)
2017/18 - 4th (25 points behind City; Mourinho did better with Man Utd, finishing 2nd)

It took Klopp 3 years to put together a real title challenger team.
Let's look at some of the most important signings:

2016 - Mané (€41), Wijnaldum (€27.5m)
2017 - Salah (€42m), Oxlade-Chamberlain (€38m), van Dijk (€84m - joined 2018 Jan)
2018 - Alisson (€62m), Keita (€60m), Fabinho (€45m), Shaqiri (€14.7m)

After spending €400m+ in 3 years, Klopp started to win trophies:

2019 - Champions League
2020 - Premier League

[whatsupdoc]

Personally I don't believe the "Mourinho has fallen behind the times tactically" narrative. His tactics were never what won him trophies. 

What has changed drastically is his ability to relate to players and the media. 15-20 years ago, both loved him. Now both quickly come to despise him wherever he goes. 

He's on a quest / warpath centered on "correct" behaviour from both and it very quickly turns toxic.

Edited February 20 by whatsupdoc

[Davienene]

19 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Personally I don't believe the "Mourinho has fallen behind the times tactically" narrative. His tactics were never what won him trophies. 

What has changed drastically is his ability to relate to players and the media. 15-20 years ago, both loved him. Now both quickly come to despise him wherever he goes. 

He's on a quest / warpath centered on "correct" behaviour from both and it very quickly turns toxic.

Yes plus his tactics are mostly based on containing the opposition.I believe he could still do a job in the one off games,knockout stages etc but over a 38 game period you need a playing style and habits for your players.

[NineCloudNine]

30 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Personally I don't believe the "Mourinho has fallen behind the times tactically" narrative. His tactics were never what won him trophies. 

What has changed drastically is his ability to relate to players and the media. 15-20 years ago, both loved him. Now both quickly come to despise him wherever he goes. 

He's on a quest / warpath centered on "correct" behaviour from both and it very quickly turns toxic.

As this thread’s resident Mourinho-hater, I agree with this analysis. He seems to go looking for fights. That worked when he was a brash upstart taking on the old-school (Ferguson, Wenger) but everyone is just tired of it now. I think it is a shame because in fact he WAS tactically innovative once, able to nullify tiki-taka (Inter), create an impregnable defence (Chelsea) or score record numbers of goals (Madrid). 

[g1nh0]

I think as well that to a large extent, Mourinho has always relied on having top quality players at the final third end of the pitch to be a difference maker in games, along with having a really solid backline to not just keep teams out, but create the foundation of being able to create those higher quality chances on the break knowing he would have clinical players in that final third.

It's just harder to implement that nowadays. But a side like Bayern with those match winners I think is the sort of profile club that he can still do a very good job at.

I mean, where would Klopp and Pep be without all of their star studded front lines and midfield? They would suffer the same problem breaking low block teams down without that quality available to do so.

Edited February 20 by g1nh0

[dubbed5]

On 17/02/2024 at 17:39, NineCloudNine said:

What SI have not done is to reflect the downsides of gegenpressing on injuries and fatigue. A combination of physical attributes being overwhelmingly dominant and deliberately reduced injury rates means there are no consequences to all-in pressing in FM, whereas in real life teams trying that would be exhausted by Christmas and have half the squad out injured.

Very good point, I fully agree.

It's a tough and demanding style, both physically and mentally.
You need stamina, fitness, concentration, and tactical understanding.
Playing like this requires a great team and lots of practice.
Fatigue and injuries are big issues during the season.

Press too much, and you're out of position, giving the opposition a chance to exploit.
It needs to be executed properly to avoid leaving the team vulnerable to counter-attacks.
It can be very effective, but it's tricky, risky tactic, and has its own downsides.

However, in FM24 we don't have any of these drawbacks.
It's the holy grail that works for any team, even relegation sides.

 

"FM24’s ME reflects that tactical dominance, which is in one way a shame but in another at least true to real life."

I disagree with this. I don't see that tactical dominance in real life.

For example, as @akkm pointed out, when Klopp's Pool faced Real Madrid, they lost every single time.
Liverpool's success was also greatly propelled by substantial spending.
Before signing world-class players, they finished around 4th or worse, with a big gap of around 20 points behind the champion team.

 

"Football in 2024 is not the same as 2013. Gegenpress wasn’t a thing then."

Klopp won the Bundesliga with Dortmund in 2011 and 2012.
That's when gegenpressing became a buzzword.

[TheVerySpecialOne]

8 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

I downloaded one of those top tactics to check how it performs with Luton (predicted to finish 20th).

A crazy, reckless tactic that shouldn't work with the weakest team in the league.
Maximum intensity, ultra-hard pressing for 90 minutes.
Attacking mentality, a very high defensive line and hard tackling.

Match engine loves it though:

Jacob Brown scored more than Haaland and Ross Barkley is the league's best player.

 

Bell has the 2nd highest assist count. This maestro...

 

Setting up a similar tactic in FM 13 with the 20th predicted team.

 

Seems way more realistic.

 

Adopting a more cautious tactical approach, as opposed to an all-out attacking, high-pressing one, used to yield better results for underdog teams.

 

 

Damn I need to get this game, looks challenging. And then people say fm 24 is the best ever.

[Ein]

Is it possible to buy old FM games? They aren't sold on Steam and the only sites that I could find seem dodgy. I'm specifically looking to buy FM18 which is the last edition before the switch to the new tactical creator.

[sthptngomad76]

45 minutes ago, Ein said:

Is it possible to buy old FM games? They aren't sold on Steam and the only sites that I could find seem dodgy. I'm specifically looking to buy FM18 which is the last edition before the switch to the new tactical creator.

Fm 18 is notoriously difficult to get hold of from my experience. To be fair that one had its own issues. I’ve had success finding older versions like 16 on ebay personally

[João14]

17 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

I downloaded one of those top tactics to check how it performs with Luton (predicted to finish 20th).

A crazy, reckless tactic that shouldn't work with the weakest team in the league.
Maximum intensity, ultra-hard pressing for 90 minutes.
Attacking mentality, a very high defensive line and hard tackling.

Match engine loves it though:

Jacob Brown scored more than Haaland and Ross Barkley is the league's best player.

 

Bell has the 2nd highest assist count. This maestro...

 

Setting up a similar tactic in FM 13 with the 20th predicted team.

 

Seems way more realistic.

 

Adopting a more cautious tactical approach, as opposed to an all-out attacking, high-pressing one, used to yield better results for underdog teams.

 

Why are you comparing sliders to the instructions on FM24? How is this even a test? Nothing in the screens shares a similarity because it has been said a lot in the forums that sliders are not comparable to the new set of instructions. FM13 is a much more simple ME with a lot less possible outcomes, yet, if you find it so good you're always free do play it again.

No one would be able to compete with the tactic you have on FM13. The fact it does perform shows how much the game has evolved and how teams and users should be punished by not pressing and giving the ball to the opposition. This is a real representation of football nowadays, if you have a problem with it you should watch another sport probably. Even defence-first managers don't give up on pressing and have a lot of attitude when they have the ball, all the tactics here supposedly defensive do not show this.

Also a lot of you guys here seems to misunderstand the mentalities (team + player) what's the point of having TM on Defensive and having 4 players on Attack? What's the point? @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has a great thread on Twitter about this. 

 

[g1nh0]

50 minutes ago, João14 said:

Why are you comparing sliders to the instructions on FM24? How is this even a test? Nothing in the screens shares a similarity because it has been said a lot in the forums that sliders are not comparable to the new set of instructions. FM13 is a much more simple ME with a lot less possible outcomes, yet, if you find it so good you're always free do play it again.

No one would be able to compete with the tactic you have on FM13. The fact it does perform shows how much the game has evolved and how teams and users should be punished by not pressing and giving the ball to the opposition. This is a real representation of football nowadays, if you have a problem with it you should watch another sport probably. Even defence-first managers don't give up on pressing and have a lot of attitude when they have the ball, all the tactics here supposedly defensive do not show this.

Also a lot of you guys here seems to misunderstand the mentalities (team + player) what's the point of having TM on Defensive and having 4 players on Attack? What's the point? @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has a great thread on Twitter about this. 

 

Lol, this post a joke?

[Etebaer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Ein:

Is it possible to buy old FM games? They aren't sold on Steam and the only sites that I could find seem dodgy. I'm specifically looking to buy FM18 which is the last edition before the switch to the new tactical creator.

It seems there are 2 Shops that pretend to have keys available but its almost full price.

[Arijit]

3 hours ago, Ein said:

Is it possible to buy old FM games? They aren't sold on Steam and the only sites that I could find seem dodgy. I'm specifically looking to buy FM18 which is the last edition before the switch to the new tactical creator.

If you are in US, amazon.com has physical disc for FM2016, FM2018, FM2019 and FM2022 I believe. Sold by 3rd party sellers but shipped from Amazon, so you are covered if they are not working. All you will need the serial number to register with Steam.

Also try eBay for any unopened copy from the past.

[dubbed5]

4 hours ago, João14 said:

Why are you comparing sliders to the instructions on FM24? How is this even a test? Nothing in the screens shares a similarity because it has been said a lot in the forums that sliders are not comparable to the new set of instructions. FM13 is a much more simple ME with a lot less possible outcomes, yet, if you find it so good you're always free do play it again.

No one would be able to compete with the tactic you have on FM13. The fact it does perform shows how much the game has evolved and how teams and users should be punished by not pressing and giving the ball to the opposition. This is a real representation of football nowadays, if you have a problem with it you should watch another sport probably. Even defence-first managers don't give up on pressing and have a lot of attitude when they have the ball, all the tactics here supposedly defensive do not show this.

Also a lot of you guys here seems to misunderstand the mentalities (team + player) what's the point of having TM on Defensive and having 4 players on Attack? What's the point? @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has a great thread on Twitter about this. 

 

 

Of course you can compare. It's not like they totally rebuilt the engine from scratch, they just changed the menu from sliders to a more realistic text-based system.

High-tempo pressing has been around for a long time. Klopp was influenced by managers like Ralf Rangnick and Arrigo Sacchi.
Gegenpressing became very popular after Dortmund won the Bundesliga in 2011 and 2012.

That time, Pep's Barca was also well-known for their high pressing.

Is it more popular nowadays than 10 years ago? Yep.
Is it some magic op formula, like it is in FM24? Nope.

Even SI acknowledged that gegenpressing is op, but still haven't balanced things out.

Btw the new patch will come in a few weeks, right?

[João14]

3 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

 

Of course you can compare. It's not like they totally rebuilt the engine from scratch, they just changed the menu from sliders to a more realistic text-based system.

High-tempo pressing has been around for a long time. Klopp was influenced by managers like Ralf Rangnick and Arrigo Sacchi.
Gegenpressing became very popular after Dortmund won the Bundesliga in 2011 and 2012.

That time, Pep's Barca was also well-known for their high pressing.

Is it more popular nowadays than 10 years ago? Yep.
Is it some magic op formula, like it is in FM24? Nope.

Even SI acknowledged that gegenpressing is op, but still haven't balanced things out.

Btw the new patch will come in a few weeks, right?

My post has nothing to do with gegenpressing, I was talking about the Defensive tactic you posted there. Most of the “defensive” tactics posted just give up the ball every time they can, and as such they are penalized by it. While I can agree gegenpressing is indeed OP (which I never said it wasn’t) those “defensive” tactics just aren’t up to date.

 

also highlighted that the players mentality play a part besides team mentality

[g1nh0]

I knew exactly what was being implied.

Imagine you have a team of 40 year olds utilising an aggressive high line gegenpressing system with no pace, no stamina, work-rate - key attributes for gegenpressing, vs a team of an experienced defence that can play narrow and are good in the air, have a hard working midfield with stamina and can cover the ground, and fast clinical strikers up top but playing counter / defensive football, the team of 40 year olds would still be far superior because they are employing a gegenpressing and the pragmatic system irrespective of having players suited to that style, should be punished and still lose.

This is how the game currently functions with gegenpressing as the "I win" tactic.

Gegenpressing should function well and over the course of a league season, perform better than a defensive tactic in comparison, but only with the right players with a good ability to play it. And there most definitely should be room for managers wanting to employ a more defensive game in correct profile of a game. (which currently isn't possible)

Thus, a pragmatic approach with capable players, should be at an increased chance of getting a result vs a superior side - and gegenpressing should be much less effective against a team playing the exact same way who have far superior players, or not function well at all if the players aren't suited to employing gegenpressing.

And yes, the patch shouldn't arrive later than 2nd week of March hopefully.

[Litmanen 10]

I see many good and easily understandable points in the message above. 

Representation of attributes definitely is the biggest problem with the match engine. I mean: you can heavily rely on crossing even if you have three 5-foot attacking players attacking the box. They will get you the job done. You can also rely a lot on wing play, even if you have players that can't cross the ball, don't know how to dribble or have good attributes for off the ball movement. This is mainly because as far as I remember, FM has always had this railway for attacking players to run with the ball that the defensive players are not able to defend. It is better nowadays and I don't feel that the wide players are as easy to get to perform as they were in some earlier versions of the game but basically automatically effective wide play is still very much a thing. 

For me it tells a lot about SI's point of view if the response of a Conference level team being able to play tiki-taka type of football to a perfection is that: even local players in the park can control the ball perfectly, so there is no issue here. This was a couple years ago when I did this for a full season with Ebbsfleet United. 70% possession and about 3 goals per game. 

[sthptngomad76]

A lot of chat about the patch "fixing" OP gegenpressing. As much as I pray I'm wrong, I have an inkling that SI themselves don't know how to fix it, and we'll be left with a game very similar to what we have right now come March. Counterpress, high defensive lines, aggressive tackling (& it being very successful with teams that really won't be able to pull it off IRL) has been the plug and play meta since at least FM 20- SI themselves have made noises about making it a thing of the past in 22, and yet here we are again. I have no experience in coding, but is it possible that code can become so complex over many iterations that even developers may not how to correct it? Question more so for those in the know of software development.

Edited February 21 by sthptngomad76

[Mitja]

Considering the state of defending it seems unlikely gegenpress is op because of closing down or counterpress being that important here. I agree everything that's been said about fatigue and injuries. But this is core issue here it's higher mentality + tempo + high d-line (since you want to defend as far as possible from your area).  On the other hand defensive mentalities are actually control possession.

[dannyfc]

4 hours ago, sthptngomad76 said:

A lot of chat about the patch "fixing" OP gegenpressing. As much as I pray I'm wrong, I have an inkling that SI themselves don't know how to fix it, and we'll be left with a game very similar to what we have right now come March. Counterpress, high defensive lines, aggressive tackling (& it being very successful with teams that really won't be able to pull it off IRL) has been the plug and play meta since at least FM 20- SI themselves have made noises about making it a thing of the past in 22, and yet here we are again. I have no experience in coding, but is it possible that code can become so complex over many iterations that even developers may not how to correct it? Question more so for those in the know of software development.

To be fair to SI, I don't think it's a case of 'fixing' it but rather trying to replicate a simulation of real life football is just an absurdly difficult task so there will always be limitations. If you watch any other football game try to simulate AI vs AI it doesn't even remotely look like football. Even beyond football genres, there isn't a single game that has AI sophisticated enough to convincingly emulate human behaviour. 

I think the challenge is to properly replicate final third play you need to simulate creative decision making and sensible risk taking. That's a hell of lot harder to code then wing-play, which is simply showing a faster player beating his man down the line then a forward with higher anticipation getting to the cross ahead of his marker. 

There was a big overhaul in FM 13 that introduced physical presence to the game to prevent players ghosting through one another. Fingers crossed FM 25 yields another leap forward with something similarly impactful. 

 

Edited February 21 by dannyfc

[wazzaflow10]

Part of the idea that high lines and intense pressing is OP seems to be in part of the really poor distribution of every keeper. Every punt, long hoof never seems to be near a player on his own team. There's the odd occasion where everyone falls asleep and it actually goes over the top but other than asking a keeper to do anything other than distribute to CB or FBs is almost an automatic giveaway. The crazy part to me is teams playing with a lone tall striker and keepers repeatedly trying to ask 5 foot tall wingers to compete in aerial duels. Keepers shouldn't be Xabi Alonso but the combination of decision making and seemingly untargeted hoofs I think plays into the problem. 

 

[dubbed5]

20 hours ago, João14 said:

My post has nothing to do with gegenpressing, I was talking about the Defensive tactic you posted there. Most of the “defensive” tactics posted just give up the ball every time they can, and as such they are penalized by it. While I can agree gegenpressing is indeed OP (which I never said it wasn’t) those “defensive” tactics just aren’t up to date.

 

also highlighted that the players mentality play a part besides team mentality

 

Irl teams employ low block often, for example when facing stronger opponents, securing a lead, or managing fatigue by dropping deeper and applying less pressing.
It provides a compact and solid defensive structure that's hard to break down.
Sometime even top teams like Real Madrid sit deeper and play more cautious.

In FM, it's kind of upside down. See this FM Arena testing:

Play a low block, and you will concede like crazy.
Even a standard block is considerably worse than a high block.
You must crank up that trigger press to "much more often."
It's unrealistic and boring, as you don't have any tactical freedom.

So, FM says that if you are an underdog and want to minimize the risk of conceding, you must play like this:

 

 

[Mitja]

13 hours ago, dannyfc said:

I think the challenge is to properly replicate final third play you need to simulate creative decision making and sensible risk taking. That's a hell of lot harder to code then wing-play, which is simply showing a faster player beating his man down the line then a forward with higher anticipation getting to the cross ahead of his marker. 

FM 21 had decent amount of creativity, one-passing around penalty area, short through balls problem was when ball was played on flanks to fullbacks trying to cross like there's no tomorrow. Too many attacking actions would finish because senseless decisions to cross rather than keeping the ball. I've seen games with hundred crosses AI Liverpool was champion there. What about cutting inside? In previous FMs there were no problems here then suddenly players couldn't cut inside. It's a basic behaviour you take the ball to the side of your stronger foot. What I want to say is that the code was there and then it disappeared. Another example defensive on is fullbacks' pressing. In FM 17 they would step up from the line to engage into pressing wingers depending on instructions. i don't know if it has been fixed but it was gone at least until 21. I'm not sure about simulation it's about coding if behaviour x can be coded why y can't? It's even more strange that some things were there and now they're gone.

[akkm]

8 hours ago, Mitja said:

FM 21 had decent amount of creativity, one-passing around penalty area, short through balls problem was when ball was played on flanks to fullbacks trying to cross like there's no tomorrow. Too many attacking actions would finish because senseless decisions to cross rather than keeping the ball. I've seen games with hundred crosses AI Liverpool was champion there. What about cutting inside? In previous FMs there were no problems here then suddenly players couldn't cut inside. It's a basic behaviour you take the ball to the side of your stronger foot. What I want to say is that the code was there and then it disappeared. Another example defensive on is fullbacks' pressing. In FM 17 they would step up from the line to engage into pressing wingers depending on instructions. i don't know if it has been fixed but it was gone at least until 21. I'm not sure about simulation it's about coding if behaviour x can be coded why y can't? It's even more strange that some things were there and now they're gone.

Yeah that's the concern...those elements of creativity were there in FM21 and FM22 but are gone since. Yes FM22 had a massive thing with crosses being blocked...could have been a reaction to crossing issue you describe for FM21 but centrally and in the top third there was still some good creative passing and decision making. 

Since trying to introduce the chaos element/better pressing the creative elements have taken a big hit...can the engine not cope with that or is the view of football in SI just not able to see it. Are SI consciously taking out those creative elements or do they not see they're missing...not entirely sure which one it is. All I can say for sure is creative elements are sorely missing completely undermining the quality and legitimacy of the simulation as it limits the ways to play, build up, create and score.  Play then gets funneled into a smaller number of more rudimentary ways to do that. It just means more repeated patterns then and a less enjoyable and less realistic experience

[rrreee3]

On 26/01/2024 at 14:20, dubbed5 said:

Hey guys. Please give me some recommendations; which FM has the most balanced match engine?

I'm a veteran FM player, played more than 1k hours with FM13, but skipped every game since then. I really like to play defensive tactics like catenaccio and slow tempo tiki-taka. I had huge successes with these kinds of tactics in older FMs, winning leagues with mid-level teams.

Wanted to get back into FM, so I bought FM24 and after ~150 hours of playing, I'm truly disappointed. Match engine is broken, it's all about high tempo and pressing, nothing else works.

For me, one of the most rewarding and addictive features in the older FMs was the tactical variety. That I could succeed with any kind of tactic if I had the right players. It was super addictive starting new saves and playing with different approaches, succeeding with many different tactical styles.

Which FM would you recommend for me? Many people seem to praise FM17 as one of the better match engines. Should I give that one a try, or it's also just about high tempo and pressing?

Personally, FM15 is still the best ME so far. Complaints about ME are rare for FM15, if there's even any. FM20 is also not bad, just slightly worse than FM15 but still good overall. 

[dubbed5]

1 hour ago, rrreee3 said:

Personally, FM15 is still the best ME so far. Complaints about ME are rare for FM15, if there's even any. FM20 is also not bad, just slightly worse than FM15 but still good overall. 

Thanks for the recommendations, guys. Getting older FMs is so tough. I wish I could buy them on Steam. There are shady marketplaces like G2A selling Steam keys, but the prices can be outrageous. A global Steam key for FM 15 is $300+. Who would pay that much?

Edited February 23 by dubbed5

[sthptngomad76]

3 hours ago, rrreee3 said:

Personally, FM15 is still the best ME so far. Complaints about ME are rare for FM15, if there's even any. FM20 is also not bad, just slightly worse than FM15 but still good overall. 

I actually went back to 20 recently in an effort to find something different to what I’m experiencing with 24, and it’s exactly the same- can finish top two with a team predicted to be in the relegation places, with the same strategy. 
FM 15 I agree with though.

[rrreee3]

49 minutes ago, sthptngomad76 said:

I actually went back to 20 recently in an effort to find something different to what I’m experiencing with 24, and it’s exactly the same- can finish top two with a team predicted to be in the relegation places, with the same strategy. 
FM 15 I agree with though.

I actually think FM24's ME isn't as bad as ppl make it to be. Yeah there's issues, but the criticisms and slanders in general overblow the negatives. Also i'm waiting for the final major patch (should be 24.4.x at summer) before passing judgement on the ME

Edited February 23 by rrreee3

[Litmanen 10]

For me FM 2015 is actually one of the worst. This was a very dribbling dominated engine where pacey wingers worked like freight trains and were simply unstoppable. Also this version had really clear small team syndrome where the smaller sides playing away from home against larger sides didn't even try to play football but instead just hoofed the ball straight to opposition when having a good chance to counter. This version had plenty of games where big teams were massing 30-40 shots per game against 0 from the opposition. 

[Rookie FM]

I know lots of work to do the testing Match Engine from FM 05 TO FM 24 to see which one is most balance Match Engine as only way to do that is get up to 10 Games on each FM Series such as Attacking or Defending Mentality then we all can compare it as it would interesting to see it .

Everyone know that FM 13 is most balance Match Engine there is due proof of picture above on someone post it

[Muja]

2 ore fa, Rookie FM ha scritto:

I know lots of work to do the testing Match Engine from FM 05 TO FM 24 to see which one is most balance Match Engine as only way to do that is get up to 10 Games on each FM Series such as Attacking or Defending Mentality then we all can compare it as it would interesting to see it .

Everyone know that FM 13 is most balance Match Engine there is due proof of picture above on someone post it

The conversation had derailed a bit earlier... Anyway, I provided the most comprehensive answer I could to the original question in this post here.