Most Balanced Match Engine?

[Rodrigogc]

6 minutos atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

Pace and acceleration ARE deadly in football and there are players who rely on to them to cover for lesser technique/mentals. That's why when you get someone like Vinicius or the real Ronaldo who has the whole package, it's insane. So FM is in the right area, it's just extreme.

And yes you are right IMO to bring it back to fatigue and also injuries. Real Ronaldo, Dembele, Walcott, also Michael Owen ... all very injury-prone. Nothing causes torn muscles and tendons liks sprinting flat out and turning at speed, especially when fatigued. FM is waaaaaay too forgiving here.

And injuries due to sprints should affect physicals a lot. Ronaldo in his prime was faster than a cannonball, his knee injuries drastically weakened his speed, but since he had it all he still got to perform at high level due to skills and technique. But his explosion had just gone, and he even got fat quickly. His case is insane, because his prime was when he was 20-21 years old, when most elite strikers reach their prime after 26. At 26 he was fat already. 

Owen's case was similar... Players who are extremely fast indeed should overperform, but there should a high risk with injuries as well. Very few high speed players keep their explosion for many years in a row. 

[wazzaflow10]

57 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Physicals having more influence is okay, but it seems like it should depend more on the player position. For instance, great DMs usually have great mentals, but those who lack the physicals should not suffer such a loss in performance due to that, in comparison with a winger who depends on physicals way more. Busquets has never been a physical player, had been for years the best DM in the world, but in FM he's always been average when playing, because the game could not simulate what he did properly. 

It has become too easy to sign great players in FM, because one starts seeing the obvious attributes that really matter. If you find a GK with great jumping reach, he will do well almost always. All the other positions, basically find players who are physical and that's it. Of course physicals are important for all positions, but football is more dynamic than that. There are countless  examples of great players who play well at high level without being fast or strong.

Are we calling average getting 7-7.1 ratings instead of 8/9s? Or are you saying he'd get 6-6.4s? I never played as Barca during the early 2010s

Busquets was never really a player to get a 10/10 match rating irl though. Same with Deschamps or Makalele. Those players never get credit but they're important to letting the star players function. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving those players above average but not great ratings. That's just the nature of the position, its an under appreciated role/duty.

Also its too easy to sign great players in FM because we know what the attributes are without question. The game would become significantly harder if those values were subjective based on factors like form, training, coach/scout opinion.

 

2 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Pace and acceleration ARE deadly in football and there are players who rely on to them to cover for lesser technique/mentals. That's who when you get someone like Vinicius or the real Ronaldo who has the whole package, it's insane. So FM is in the right area, it's just extreme.

Precisely this.

20/20 pace/acc like those players is impossible to deal with. That's what makes Adama Traore so difficult to deal with in real life too, plus the strength. His technique/descisions let him down obviously but you can see his impact instantly. I think we all kind of suffer from just viewing highlights sometimes with this game. The engine isn't going to show Traore dribbling down the wing and launching a cross into row z. If you watch a full match I'm sure it happens plenty and you'd be pulling your hair out just like every wolves manager for the past 5 years. He might do better in the game b/c of limitations in the engine dealing with pace but I don't think its far off.

9 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

And yes you are right IMO to bring it back to fatigue and also injuries. Real Ronaldo, Dembele, Walcott, also Michael Owen ... all very injury-prone. Nothing causes torn muscles and tendons liks sprinting flat out and turning at speed, especially when fatigued. FM is waaaaaay too forgiving here.

Its basically a given that Daveincid's injury mod is necessary to limit how much you can press in the game. Maybe not within the match but eventually the entire team will be jaded or injured if you don't let up. I might be one of the few but I have high hopes for the unity changeover that will hopefully simplify the code and make it easier to address some of the things we see in the game.

[wazzaflow10]

3 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

And injuries due to sprints should affect physicals a lot. Ronaldo in his prime was faster than a cannonball, his knee injuries drastically weakened his speed, but since he had it all he still got to perform at high level due to skills and technique. But his explosion had just gone, and he even got fat quickly. His case is insane, because his prime was when he was 20-21 years old, when most elite strikers reach their prime after 26. At 26 he was fat already. 

Owen's case was similar... Players who are extremely fast indeed should overperform, but there should a high risk with injuries as well. Very few high speed players keep their explosion for many years in a row. 

I spent the first half thinking you meant Cristiano and was like he's shredded at 40 what do you mean he got fat. Then it clicked. Shame on me lol.

[NineCloudNine]

17 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I spent the first half thinking you meant Cristiano and was like he's shredded at 40 what do you mean he got fat. Then it clicked. Shame on me lol.

The Real Ronaldo ! You have to be a certain age to get that !

[Rodrigogc]

Hahahaha. These days youngsters think Mbappe is fast like a lightning bolt, Ronaldo was as fast between 94~98 plus with higher technique and scoring ability. I'm Brazilian so there can be some sort of bias here, but he would've become the best striker of all time had he not been seriously injured. In 2002 WC he was fat already and gave us that trophy running like he was carrying a refrigerator on his back, imagine what he would have done with his barcelona/inter speed...

It's not a surprise he is the idol of most strikers that came after him, including Mbappe. 

[NineCloudNine]

6 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Hahahaha. These days youngsters think Mbappe is fast like a lightning bolt, Ronaldo was as fast between 94~98 plus with higher technique and scoring ability. I'm Brazilian so there can be some sort of bias here, but he would've become the best striker of all time had he not been seriously injured. In 2002 WC he was fat already and gave us that trophy running like he was carrying a refrigerator on his back, imagine what he would have done with his barcelona/inter speed...

I think anyone who saw him play before that first Inter knee injury would agree. I believe it's right that no-one has scored more top-flight goals by age 21 than him. Alessandro Nesta still has nightmares about the 1998 UEFA Cup Final.

His weight gain is down to hypothyroidism I believe.

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

I think anyone who saw him play before that first Inter knee injury would agree. I believe it's right that no-one has scored more top-flight goals by age 21 than him. Alessandro Nesta still has nightmares about the 1998 UEFA Cup Final.

His weight gain is down to hypothyroidism I believe.

Yeah, it was due to hypothyroidism. In 2002 he was already above weight. Still could run but nothing compared to what he did in the 90s. This is just something that could be added to FM as well, some sort of random stuff going on with players that would impair their potential, at least it would diminish the certainty you have after buying a wonderkid. Hypothyroidism is not an injury, it's a condition so it has nothing to do with football, but affected his professional carreer significantly.

So, the ultimate goal in FM when scouting would be finding a strong fast technical wonderkid who won't be affected by injuries or personality, and you would have the ultimate football player. But that should be rare. 

[wazzaflow10]

3 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

The Real Ronaldo ! You have to be a certain age to get that !

LOL that was before we started referring to him as the fat ronaldo. Just took me a minute to switch. I remember watching him dominate World Cup 98.

[wazzaflow10]

3 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Hahahaha. These days youngsters think Mbappe is fast like a lightning bolt, Ronaldo was as fast between 94~98 plus with higher technique and scoring ability. I'm Brazilian so there can be some sort of bias here, but he would've become the best striker of all time had he not been seriously injured. In 2002 WC he was fat already and gave us that trophy running like he was carrying a refrigerator on his back, imagine what he would have done with his barcelona/inter speed...

It's not a surprise he is the idol of most strikers that came after him, including Mbappe. 

I don't think that biased at all. Injuries robbed him of so much. He spent the four years in between WC's on the trainers table it seemed. Miracle he managed to perform for Madrid but really fell off afterwards.

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

Yeah, it was due to hypothyroidism. In 2002 he was already above weight. Still could run but nothing compared to what he did in the 90s. This is just something that could be added to FM as well, some sort of random stuff going on with players that would impair their potential, at least it would diminish the certainty you have after buying a wonderkid. Hypothyroidism is not an injury, it's a condition so it has nothing to do with football, but affected his professional carreer significantly.

So, the ultimate goal in FM when scouting would be finding a strong fast technical wonderkid who won't be affected by injuries or personality, and you would have the ultimate football player. But that should be rare. 

 

I think they leave stuff out like this for legal reasons. Just like no real players have bad personalities. I think it kind of ruins the game in some way.

Edited February 9 by wazzaflow10

[Rodrigogc]

13 minutos atrás, wazzaflow10 disse:

I don't think that biased at all. Injuries robbed him of so much. He spent the four years in between WC's on the trainers table it seemed. Miracle he managed to perform for Madrid but really fell off afterwards.

I think they leave stuff out like this for legal reasons. Just like no real players have bad personalities. I think it kind of ruins the game in some way.

This era was filled with so many great strikers.. I wonder what FM would've been like in the late 90s~early2000s having to defend against those. I think that was the Strikers Era, I've never seen so many great strikers playing at the same time in my life. And I was born in 1975. Every national team had a great one

Brazil - Ronaldo, Romario

Argentina - Batistuta, Crespo

Netherlands - Van Nistelrooy, Makaay

England - Shearer, Owen

Germany - Klose, Bierhoff

Italy - Del Piero, Inzaghi

Spain - Raul, Morientes

France - Trezeguet, Henry

 

Jesus, the list goes on and on...

[wazzaflow10]

6 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

This era was filled with so many great strikers.. I wonder what FM would've been like in the late 90s~early2000s having to defend against those. I think that was the Strikers Era, I've never seen so many great strikers playing at the same time in my life. And I was born in 1975. Every national team had a great one

Brazil - Ronaldo, Romario

Argentina - Batistuta, Crespo

Netherlands - Van Nistelrooy, Makaay

England - Shearer, Owen

Germany - Klose, Bierhoff

Italy - Del Piero, Inzaghi

Spain - Raul, Morientes

France - Trezeguet, Henry

 

Jesus, the list goes on and on...

 

I mean there's CM 01/02 you could try out. little late since most of those players are kind at the peark or back end of their career. But you'll get to see some of the wonderkids from that era in an alternate reality. 20 year old ronaldinho to name one

[JimmysTheBestCop]

11 hours ago, CaptainSa said:

Those experiments tell you nothing except that if you put in unrealistic attributes you get unrealistic results.

Video games aren't realistic. Stop brining up real life football it's irrelevant. We are discussing how FM mechanics work and not how real world mechanics work. 

Is Haaland physical attributes unrealistic? He is basically 18 at everything. 

I'll bet my salary for a month you never deep dived and read FM arenas testing methodology their tests results or conclusions. Not to mention the extreme Chinese findings of 1ca players. 

Maybe you don't know about video games? That is how you test video games. Because when the public gets the games they will do anything they can to find loopholes, glitches, broken mechanics etc. They will run any game through extremes to test it every which way. 

If you think tests like that show nothing because of realism then again it's obvious you know nothing about video games. 

FM is a video game. It is not real world football. 

Look at these morale findings over 2800 matches for each morale

https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/

5 point difference from best to worst morale on the average of each morale tested at 2880 matches. 

And you are going to say it's balanced? Does it impact the match engine. Sure 5 point difference. But it's meaningless to even pay attention to it for so little gains in the majority of situations. 

Edited February 9 by JimmysTheBestCop

[Ein]

10 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

These days youngsters think Mbappe is fast like a lightning bolt, Ronaldo was as fast between 94~98 plus with higher technique and scoring ability.

Only 18 pace! :P

[Rodrigogc]

3 horas atrás, Ein disse:

Only 18 pace! :P

Heading 15 hahaha The only thing he could not do, his heading was actually very poor. Romario was way smaller than Ronaldo and was a far better header. Back in these days there were many players with many 20 attributes. I remember in FM06 Ibrahimovic had a lot of 19 and 20s. Insane how FM and its research has become better, even though we complain a lot.

[dannyo666]

14 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

This era was filled with so many great strikers.. I wonder what FM would've been like in the late 90s~early2000s having to defend against those. I think that was the Strikers Era, I've never seen so many great strikers playing at the same time in my life. And I was born in 1975. Every national team had a great one

Brazil - Ronaldo, Romario

Argentina - Batistuta, Crespo

Netherlands - Van Nistelrooy, Makaay

England - Shearer, Owen

Germany - Klose, Bierhoff

Italy - Del Piero, Inzaghi

Spain - Raul, Morientes

France - Trezeguet, Henry

 

Jesus, the list goes on and on...

I think the quality of player has gone down IRL over the last few years.....Its much more a team sport now....Individual's dont stick out as much...

[Rodrigogc]

37 minutos atrás, dannyo666 disse:

I think the quality of player has gone down IRL over the last few years.....Its much more a team sport now....Individual's dont stick out as much...

I don't think so. Players now are more agile, orient their body better on the ball, but defensive roles have improved too much to the point that attacking players seem more inefficient. There's less space as well, which benefits non-technical players. That seems contradictory but the less space the more physical players will stand out because lack of space means their technical flaws will not appear to the viewer. The talented players are being overpowered by strong physical players now. 

Zidane and Riquelme said they wouldn't stand a chance in today's football. And extremely technical players have been disappearing over Haalands and Mbappes, football machines. Messis, Neymars, Zidanes, players like that are fading while we see 18 years olds running 20km a game. 

The goalkeepers have become too agile to the point people think free kick takers have disappeared, central defenders are as fast as many wingers these days, full backs now are creative players and build up play through the middle..

Meanwhile the attacking positions have stayed basically the same, one change or another here and there, but nothing like the defensive ones. 

Not to mention that players take less risk today, relying on data to make decisions. You don't see many players shooting from outside the box because chances are they will miss or goalkeeper will save, so they keep passing the ball until space is allowed. Football back in the 80s and 90s and even 2000s, players made more mistakes because they took more risk, but then we would see many beautiful individual goals we don't see often these days. 

[dannyo666]

19 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

I don't think so. Players now are more agile, orient their body better on the ball, but defensive roles have improved too much to the point that attacking players seem more inefficient. There's less space as well, which benefits non-technical players. That seems contradictory but the less space the more physical players will stand out because lack of space means their technical flaws will not appear to the viewer. The talented players are being overpowered by strong physical players now. 

Zidane and Riquelme said they wouldn't stand a chance in today's football. And extremely technical players have been disappearing over Haalands and Mbappes, football machines. Messis, Neymars, Zidanes, players like that are fading while we see 18 years olds running 20km a game. 

The goalkeepers have become too agile to the point people think free kick takers have disappeared, central defenders are as fast as many wingers these days, full backs now are creative players and build up play through the middle..

Meanwhile the attacking positions have stayed basically the same, one change or another here and there, but nothing like the defensive ones. 

Not to mention that players take less risk today, relying on data to make decisions. You don't see many players shooting from outside the box because chances are they will miss or goalkeeper will save, so they keep passing the ball until space is allowed. Football back in the 80s and 90s and even 2000s, players made more mistakes because they took more risk, but then we would see many beautiful individual goals we don't see often these days. 

Maybe im ol skool at this stage but man i miss some of those players.....every ""top league""" had so so many absolute gems....so many characters in the noughties....i think pep really changed the game-His model seems to be what every team looking for glory are trying or at least taking bits and implementing them into thier own systems....Its all peps fault

[Rodrigogc]

11 minutos atrás, dannyo666 disse:

Maybe im ol skool at this stage but man i miss some of those players.....every ""top league""" had so so many absolute gems....so many characters in the noughties....i think pep really changed the game-His model seems to be what every team looking for glory are trying or at least taking bits and implementing them into thier own systems....Its all peps fault

Yeah, Bielsa said that Pep "ruined" football. I think he is a genius, but I don't like watching his teams play. His model is based on controlling the randomness of football, which makes sense and work, but to me taking the randomness of the game ultimately takes the entertainment out of it. Many stars in the past would stand out because they could control the randomness in their own way, now we see teams doing it, so teams rely less on individuality, but I think everyone watches football to see players shining on their own way.  This is a very interesting discussion, because it seems to me that players play too similar these days because of the improvements of football. It's like producing players out of a factory, which I don't like. 

Up until the mid 2000s, we had a lot of 10s who would play completely different, it was a joy to watch. 

Ronaldinho - plasticity, street skills, flair

Zidane - elegance, first touch and control

Alex - technique, through passes, long shots

Riquelme - ball retention, street skills 

 

All of them number 10s, all of them different. 

[dannyo666]

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

Yeah, Bielsa said that Pep "ruined" football. I think he is a genius, but I don't like watching his teams play. His model is based on controlling the randomness of football, which makes sense and work, but to me taking the randomness of the game ultimately takes the entertainment out of it. Many stars in the past would stand out because they could control the randomness in their own way, now we see teams doing it, so teams rely less on individuality, but I think everyone watches football to see players shining on their own way.  This is a very interesting discussion, because it seems to me that players play too similar these days because of the improvements of football. It's like producing players out of a factory, which I don't like. 

Up until the mid 2000s, we had a lot of 10s who would play completely different, it was a joy to watch. 

Ronaldinho - plasticity, street skills, flair

Zidane - elegance, first touch and control

Alex - technique, through passes, long shots

Riquelme - ball retention, street skills 

 

All of them number 10s, all of them different. 

Ah stop,your turning me on with some of those names.....Rivaldo,nedved and the Pirlo the conductor in front of the back 4....

[wazzaflow10]

4 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Yeah, Bielsa said that Pep "ruined" football. I think he is a genius, but I don't like watching his teams play. His model is based on controlling the randomness of football, which makes sense and work, but to me taking the randomness of the game ultimately takes the entertainment out of it. Many stars in the past would stand out because they could control the randomness in their own way, now we see teams doing it, so teams rely less on individuality, but I think everyone watches football to see players shining on their own way.  This is a very interesting discussion, because it seems to me that players play too similar these days because of the improvements of football. It's like producing players out of a factory, which I don't like. 

Up until the mid 2000s, we had a lot of 10s who would play completely different, it was a joy to watch. 

Ronaldinho - plasticity, street skills, flair

Zidane - elegance, first touch and control

Alex - technique, through passes, long shots

Riquelme - ball retention, street skills 

 

All of them number 10s, all of them different. 

I remember reading something that all the technical number 10s have been disappearing due to the current pressing style. I think Ronaldinho, Zidane, Riquelme would be perfectly fine playing today given how good they were but you'd have to compensate elsewhere for their lack of outstanding physical attributes. Certainly couldn't have a more than one of them in a team.

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, wazzaflow10 disse:

I remember reading something that all the technical number 10s have been disappearing due to the current pressing style. I think Ronaldinho, Zidane, Riquelme would be perfectly fine playing today given how good they were but you'd have to compensate elsewhere for their lack of outstanding physical attributes. Certainly couldn't have a more than one of them in a team.

I  think the pressing style may have something to do with this, but these players were too technical. They grew up playing in terrible pitch conditions, and still had amazing first touch. I'm not sure of this but I think the terrible football fields of the past would force players to be more technical, because the ball bounced too much on the grass, players actually had to be very technical to play at high level. There are some exceptions today though, Florian Wirtz is a number 10 and next transfer window I'm sure he will be chased by bigger clubs. 

Ronaldinho and Zidane I think would cut through today's elite level, but i'm not sure about Riquelme. He was too classical and inconsistent, and it was part of his aura shifting from amazing performanes to bad ones. Ronaldinho at PSG was actually quite fast, he was the whole package back then. Zidane was not fast, but he was dynamic De Bruyne style. Watching these players felt like time would simply stop when they touch the ball, it was incredible.

[deco2609]

I really like the match engine from fm17. 

Maybe because it was the last FM on the old match engine (FM 18 was rebuilt in terms of 2D and 3D graphics).

Removing the ability to choose team fluidity regardless of roles was the final nail in the coffin 

[dannyo666]

15 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

I  think the pressing style may have something to do with this, but these players were too technical. They grew up playing in terrible pitch conditions, and still had amazing first touch. I'm not sure of this but I think the terrible football fields of the past would force players to be more technical, because the ball bounced too much on the grass, players actually had to be very technical to play at high level. There are some exceptions today though, Florian Wirtz is a number 10 and next transfer window I'm sure he will be chased by bigger clubs. 

Ronaldinho and Zidane I think would cut through today's elite level, but i'm not sure about Riquelme. He was too classical and inconsistent, and it was part of his aura shifting from amazing performanes to bad ones. Ronaldinho at PSG was actually quite fast, he was the whole package back then. Zidane was not fast, but he was dynamic De Bruyne style. Watching these players felt like time would simply stop when they touch the ball, it was incredible.

Ozil is the perfect example...after arsenal no one would take apunt on him and i dont blame them-He drove me insane walking around the pitch like its a sunday stroll but he was a baller when it was at his feet....he just refuses to track back-End of....pre 2010 a solution/exception could have been made but not now with all teams pressing.....

[Rodrigogc]

17 minutos atrás, dannyo666 disse:

Ozil is the perfect example...after arsenal no one would take apunt on him and i dont blame them-He drove me insane walking around the pitch like its a sunday stroll but he was a baller when it was at his feet....he just refuses to track back-End of....pre 2010 a solution/exception could have been made but not now with all teams pressing.....

 

Ozil was amazing. The issue to me is that people don't understand basic human nature. Ozil was a gifted player, every gifted will not track back and run like the  average player, simple as that. The problem is that he was not Messi, and today's football punish players like Ozil. Alex, who played for fenerbahce was similar to Ozil here in Brazil, people would call him lazy for not running like a headless chicken, but in Turkey he has a statue as the best Fenerbahçe player of all time. I think it is sad because today's football is eliminating the difference between players, Galacticos Real madrid had Zidane and Makelele, they did complete different things on the pitch. Nowadays a midfielder has to be a blend of these two, hence the "meta players". 

I like today's football speed, the matches are way more dynamic, teams way more organized, but I miss the individuality of the past. I watch Man City and feels like i'm watching 10 midfielders on the pitch + Haaland. 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

 

Ozil was amazing. The issue to me is that people don't understand basic human nature. Ozil was a gifted player, every gifted will not track back and run like the  average player, simple as that. The problem is that he was not Messi, and today's football punish players like Ozil. Alex, who played for fenerbahce was similar to Ozil here in Brazil, people would call him lazy for not running like a headless chicken, but in Turkey he has a statue as the best Fenerbahçe player of all time. I think it is sad because today's football is eliminating the difference between players, Galacticos Real madrid had Zidane and Makelele, they did complete different things on the pitch. Nowadays a midfielder has to be a blend of these two, hence the "meta players". 

I like today's football speed, the matches are way more dynamic, teams way more organized, but I miss the individuality of the past. I watch Man City and feels like i'm watching 10 midfielders on the pitch + Haaland. 

it'll circle around again. The game always fluctuates between mentalities. Diniz is the anti-Pep supposedly so he might bring a new wave of tactical instructions that break positional play's rigidity.

[Litmanen 10]

9 hours ago, deco2609 said:

I really like the match engine from fm17. 

Maybe because it was the last FM on the old match engine (FM 18 was rebuilt in terms of 2D and 3D graphics).

Removing the ability to choose team fluidity regardless of roles was the final nail in the coffin 

To be fair, FM 2017's match engine didn't make any sense at all. Midfield was totally lacking defending as wingers just remained wide. You could have a deep lying forward having 80+ pass attempts and 10+ key passes per game on that.

In short, this is the engine that had absolutely nothing to do with real football. 

[dubbed5]

On 09/02/2024 at 05:14, KlaaZ said:

To counter your point, I just became champions of Belgium and won the cup in my opening season with a team predicted to end in 15th place, with only one additional signing. I played a mid block 3-4-2-1 on balanced almost the entire time. 

So no, not everything else is a struggle.

Congrats. Few weeks ago I won the Eredivisie with Vitesse (predicted to finish 9th or 10th?) with minimal signings. I also used the balanced mentality often (had 2 tactics, an attacking and a balanced one). And I used high pressing and tempo, as that's what the game forces us to do if we want to overachieve.

Balanced, positive and attacking mentalities are all fine, and it seems like the defensive line instruction doesn't have much impact, according to FM Arena tests. Counter-pressing is also mostly cosmetic, with no noticeable difference between 'on' or 'off.'

However, high pressing and high tempo are the two most imbalanced and broken tactical instructions. You can even get away with using the underpowered defensive mentality as long as you maintain high pressing and high tempo. The difference is night and day.

Look at this, at first it might seem like a defensive tactic, but don't let the formation and mentality fool you.
It's actually just another gegenpressing approach, using high tempo and 'much more' pressing:

It performed reasonably well, not as good as when combined with a balanced, positive or attacking mentality, but still not bad:

Now, let's reload to pre-season and change only two things: set tempo to lower and pressing to less often:

Now it's a total disaster; notice by the end of November, West Ham is 18th:

Sacked, without even a 'Goodbye':

 

Btw, this guy whom I signed for dirt cheap in my Vitesse save turned out to be one of my key players for the season, averaging 7.47 in the league if I remember correctly:

Terrible mental and poor technical attributes? Who cares; look at that acceleration and pace – that's what the ME cares about the most.
Average stamina, and he gets spooked by his own shadow, but he can still press hard for 90 minutes every game.
It's crazy that players/teams with poor attributes can play like Man City or Liverpool, and you don't have to worry too much about fatigue or injuries either.

On the other hand, even with world-class defenders and midfielders, you still can't park the bus or play very defensively.

Just a tip for a more suitable title:

[dubbed5]

On 06/02/2024 at 00:05, NineCloudNine said:

It would be suicide in the real life modern game as well. Football in 2024 is not the same as 2013. Gegenpress wasn’t a thing then. Positional play was basic. Players are now fitter. Data analysis is light years ahead. FM is at least trying to reflect this change.

What FM gets wrong is letting players run gegenpress tactics with no consequences. IRL turning it all up to max will destroy your players by Christmas and you’ll get picked off by smart opponents exploiting space. FM is far too forgiving on injuries and player fatigue and the AI managers aren’t smart enough. But if SI did these things, the forum would light up with complaints from players who won’t accept that asking a midfielder to press for 90 mins, 40 times a season will destroy them, “because Rodri does it”.

Somebody mentioned that SI acknowledged gegenpressing is currently overpowered and promised they would balance it, which, unfortunately, never happened.

And just because it's a popular style nowadays doesn't mean they have to make it op.

In the early 2010s, Barcelona/Spain's tiki-taka craze was at its peak, yet they didn't make that tactical style op in older FMs.
I did some tiki-taka saves in FM 13, and it was actually one of the harder styles to pull off as you needed a very good squad with great mental and technical attributes.
It was all fine and realistic because you can't expect a 3rd division team to play like prime Barca, right?
If you had the right players, a slow-tempo tiki-taka worked well in FM 13, but it was a bad choice for a mid-level team or a lower-division team.

Gegenpressing is also a challenging tactical style; not every team can replicate Guardiola's or Klopp's formula.

However, in Gegenpress Manager 24, you can pick a random low division team and win trophies easily.
You can go all out attacking, press non-stop for 90+ minutes, and dominate even stronger teams. It's nonsense.

Besides, it's not some new holy grail tactic; we've seen very similar approaches in the past (Milan under Arrigo Sacchi, for example).

[Rodrigogc]

10 minutos atrás, dubbed5 disse:

Somebody mentioned that SI acknowledged gegenpressing is currently overpowered and promised they would balance it, which, unfortunately, never happened.

And just because it's a popular style nowadays doesn't mean they have to make it op.

In the early 2010s, Barcelona/Spain's tiki-taka craze was at its peak, yet they didn't make that tactical style op in older FMs.
I did some tiki-taka saves in FM 13, and it was actually one of the harder styles to pull off as you needed a very good squad with great mental and technical attributes.
It was all fine and realistic because you can't expect a 3rd division team to play like prime Barca, right?
If you had the right players, a slow-tempo tiki-taka worked well in FM 13, but it was a bad choice for a mid-level team or a lower-division team.

Gegenpressing is also a challenging tactical style; not every team can replicate Guardiola's or Klopp's formula.

However, in Gegenpress Manager 24, you can pick a random low division team and win trophies easily.
You can go all out attacking, press non-stop for 90+ minutes, and dominate even stronger teams. It's nonsense.

Besides, it's not some new holy grail tactic; we've seen very similar approaches in the past (Milan under Arrigo Sacchi, for example).

 

They literally said that "Gegenpress would be a thing of the past", and as we see it didn't turn out like that. SI is missing the point I suppose, because nobody wants it to be a thing of the past. People want it to be a realistic thing of the present. 

Overall, I'm yearning for a balanced ME and more realistic interactions. If they only could fix these things, this would be the best FM ever. 

Edited February 16 by Rodrigogc

[g1nh0]

4 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

Congrats. Few weeks ago I won the Eredivisie with Vitesse (predicted to finish 9th or 10th?) with minimal signings. I also used the balanced mentality often (had 2 tactics, an attacking and a balanced one). And I used high pressing and tempo, as that's what the game forces us to do if we want to overachieve.

Balanced, positive and attacking mentalities are all fine, and it seems like the defensive line instruction doesn't have much impact, according to FM Arena tests. Counter-pressing is also mostly cosmetic, with no noticeable difference between 'on' or 'off.'

However, high pressing and high tempo are the two most imbalanced and broken tactical instructions. You can even get away with using the underpowered defensive mentality as long as you maintain high pressing and high tempo. The difference is night and day.

Look at this, at first it might seem like a defensive tactic, but don't let the formation and mentality fool you.
It's actually just another gegenpressing approach, using high tempo and 'much more' pressing:

It performed reasonably well, not as good as when combined with a balanced, positive or attacking mentality, but still not bad:

Now, let's reload to pre-season and change only two things: set tempo to lower and pressing to less often:

Now it's a total disaster; notice by the end of November, West Ham is 18th:

Sacked, without even a 'Goodbye':

 

Btw, this guy whom I signed for dirt cheap in my Vitesse save turned out to be one of my key players for the season, averaging 7.47 in the league if I remember correctly:

Terrible mental and poor technical attributes? Who cares; look at that acceleration and pace – that's what the ME cares about the most.
Average stamina, and he gets spooked by his own shadow, but he can still press hard for 90 minutes every game.
It's crazy that players/teams with poor attributes can play like Man City or Liverpool, and you don't have to worry too much about fatigue or injuries either.

On the other hand, even with world-class defenders and midfielders, you still can't park the bus or play very defensively.

Just a tip for a more suitable title:

lol - should prob get a phat picture of Klopp with his beard on the front too

[dubbed5]

2 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

lol - should prob get a phat picture of Klopp with his beard on the front too

Great idea.
Or what about this one?

[g1nh0]

3 minutes ago, dubbed5 said:

Great idea.
Or what about this one?

Love it!

[Litmanen 10]

I found an interesting looking tactical channel on YouTube that I started to follow as the idea of the channel was to replicate successful real-life managers' style of plays. Lost my interest after a few videos when all of the tactics were full on pressing, high defensive line etc. 

I actually like my own gameplay though in this match engine. Never use high press and most of the times my team plays absolutely horribly bad. 

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

Now, let's reload to pre-season and change only two things: set tempo to lower and pressing to less often:

 

 

Here's the issue though, you're just completely sitting back not putting any pressure on anyone. Putting defensive mentality with low block with much lower defensive line and less often pressing is basically sitting on top of your keeper and never trying to escape. We're well past anti-football at this point so playing that for 90 minutes for numerous games is of course going to result in poor performance. It doesn't really serve as evidence that "everything is broken". Its what you would expect playing that way and if your expectations were to bravely fight against relegation you'd be doing a pretty decent job being in 18th.

[herne79]

3 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

Somebody mentioned that SI acknowledged gegenpressing is currently overpowered and promised they would balance it, which, unfortunately, never happened.

And just because it's a popular style nowadays doesn't mean they have to make it op.

In the early 2010s, Barcelona/Spain's tiki-taka craze was at its peak, yet they didn't make that tactical style op in older FMs.
I did some tiki-taka saves in FM 13, and it was actually one of the harder styles to pull off as you needed a very good squad with great mental and technical attributes.
It was all fine and realistic because you can't expect a 3rd division team to play like prime Barca, right?
If you had the right players, a slow-tempo tiki-taka worked well in FM 13, but it was a bad choice for a mid-level team or a lower-division team.

Gegenpressing is also a challenging tactical style; not every team can replicate Guardiola's or Klopp's formula.

However, in Gegenpress Manager 24, you can pick a random low division team and win trophies easily.
You can go all out attacking, press non-stop for 90+ minutes, and dominate even stronger teams. It's nonsense.

Besides, it's not some new holy grail tactic; we've seen very similar approaches in the past (Milan under Arrigo Sacchi, for example)

I’m not commenting on the current balance of the ME, nor what tactic may or may not be OP, but just to pick up on the point of lower level division teams being able to play like prime Barcelona or knock out gegenpress for 90 mins being nonsense.

It’s all relative to the level at which you are playing.  Naff Utd FC playing a possession based game do not play like prime Barcelona.  They play like Naff Utd FC.  If they have 65% possession it’s because of the relative level they are at.  Likewise Rubbish Town FC playing gegenpress aren’t playing gegenpress like Klopp’s Dortmund.  Them being able to do so for 90 mins is because their opposition is equally rubbish, so not as much effort is required.  It’s all relative .

[Kickballz]

On 16/02/2024 at 15:25, herne79 said:

I’m not commenting on the current balance of the ME, nor what tactic may or may not be OP, but just to pick up on the point of lower level division teams being able to play like prime Barcelona or knock out gegenpress for 90 mins being nonsense.

It’s all relative to the level at which you are playing.  Naff Utd FC playing a possession based game do not play like prime Barcelona.  They play like Naff Utd FC.  If they have 65% possession it’s because of the relative level they are at.  Likewise Rubbish Town FC playing gegenpress aren’t playing gegenpress like Klopp’s Dortmund.  Them being able to do so for 90 mins is because their opposition is equally rubbish, so not as much effort is required.  It’s all relative .

No lower league team would ever play remotely like that. They would be dead on their feet in 15 minutes. I watch my local team and the idea of them playing Gegenpress is laughable.

Edited February 21 by Kickballz

[akkm]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I’m not commenting on the current balance of the ME, nor what tactic may or may not be OP, but just to pick up on the point of lower level division teams being able to play like prime Barcelona or knock out gegenpress for 90 mins being nonsense.

It’s all relative to the level at which you are playing.  Naff Utd FC playing a possession based game do not play like prime Barcelona.  They play like Naff Utd FC.  If they have 65% possession it’s because of the relative level they are at.  Likewise Rubbish Town FC playing gegenpress aren’t playing gegenpress like Klopp’s Dortmund.  Them being able to do so for 90 mins is because their opposition is equally rubbish, so not as much effort is required.  It’s all relative .

what teams in the real world are playing gegenpress for 90 minutes

There are definitely more teams at lower levels playing good possession football...gateshead in non league under mike williamson was a great example. That is absolutely all relative and needs to be doable in fm as well as you can get enough good technical players with the right view of football who are well coached to do that at any level...relative to the opposition. It's when they start to play teams levels above that the possession football will become more difficult for the lower level team then

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, akkm said:

what teams in the real world are playing gegenpress for 90 minutes

Absolutely agree with what you said below but for the sake of discussion I only see games full of tempo, running, transitions be it EPL, Bundesliga, SA, La Liga, France even City sometimes play exciting football. I don't know if that is Gegenpress but football became very globalised before every league or nation even clubs had unique style. Very few teams still play slow possession football at least not when they need to score. And let's not forget that every team will play different style depending on opponents, result etc. 

But there are at least two core issues one being balancing what's the point of maxing everything it's like in formula one game you don't use brakes. Even best teams still use some counterbalance like lower tempo or gegenpress instead of super high press.  You shouldn't be able to use same intensity tactics in lower leagues etc. The other issue is that high intensity attacking tactics are op compared to defensive ones. And we know why is that so. 

[dubbed5]

11 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Here's the issue though, you're just completely sitting back not putting any pressure on anyone. Putting defensive mentality with low block with much lower defensive line and less often pressing is basically sitting on top of your keeper and never trying to escape. We're well past anti-football at this point so playing that for 90 minutes for numerous games is of course going to result in poor performance. It doesn't really serve as evidence that "everything is broken". Its what you would expect playing that way and if your expectations were to bravely fight against relegation you'd be doing a pretty decent job being in 18th.

Some people look at it in black and white, that you either press like Liverpool or stand still and do nothing.

Football is not like that. Of course, all of the teams press.
Even Mourinho's teams do press. But differently, and not as much as Klopp's teams.

For example, Simeone's Atletico Madrid is known for their disciplined and organized defensive structure.
They do press, but their approach is not as immediate or intense as gegenpressing.
They prioritize defensive shape and defend in a more compact and structured manner.
They force opponents into less dangerous areas and then capitalize on turnovers.
It's very different than the immediate, all-out press seen in gegenpressing.
 

 

No, I'm not saying that I wanna park the bus in every single game for 90 mins.
Nobody does that, not even Mourinho.
But I do want a balanced ME where I can play defensive when I want to.
And it's a fact that modern FMs favor gegenpressing.

Also, someone earlier said that playing defensive in modern football would be suicide.
This is just simply not true. Tell that to Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, or Conte...
Mourinho won way more trophies than Klopp.

Football is so complex; it's not just about scoring goals and chasing the ball. We have FIFA for that...

Edited February 17 by dubbed5

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, dubbed5 said:

Some people look at it in black and white, that you either press like Liverpool or stand still and do nothing.

Football is not like that. Of course, all of the teams press.
Even Mourinho's teams do press. But differently, and not as much as Klopp's teams.

For example, Simeone's Atletico Madrid is known for their disciplined and organized defensive structure.
They do press, but their approach is not as immediate or intense as gegenpressing.
They prioritize defensive shape and defend in a more compact and structured manner.
They force opponents into less dangerous areas and then capitalize on turnovers.
It's very different than the immediate, all-out press seen in gegenpressing.
 

 

No, I'm not saying that I wanna park the bus in every single game for 90 mins.
Nobody does that, not even Mourinho.
But I do want a balanced ME where I can play defensive when I want to.
And it's a fact that modern FMs favor gegenpressing.

Also, someone earlier said that playing defensive in modern football would be suicide.
This is just simply not true. Tell that to Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, or Conte...
Mourinho won way more trophies than Klopp.

Football is so complex; it's not just about scoring goals and chasing the ball. We have FIFA for that...

Exactly this, been my biggest gripe and regression compared to FM23's last patch. In difficult games vs harder sides or in the big european games, you could play more pragmatic and make it difficult for superior teams to yourself. Or as a team expected to get relegated, you could play smarter and bring home some good results every so often.

This year, you can't do any of that at all, and so there is no room to have a tactical triumph in the game - because OP gegenpressing vs any other setup will win every time. And this is why the ME is so much worse this year.

And this is why this game should be called gegenpressing manager 2024, as that would reflect this game on the tin and "this is the way" to get consistent results in the game.

Edited February 17 by g1nh0

[g1nh0]

And to add to that, what compounds the misery with this year's game is gegenpressing plus two DM-S in every tactic. This literally combined together breaks the game, and has completely ruined my enjoyment of playing several tactics, especially playing online where nearly every player abuses this clear exploit of an ME which currently this year is not fit for purpose.

Edited February 17 by g1nh0

[NineCloudNine]

7 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

Also, someone earlier said that playing defensive in modern football would be suicide.

This is just simply not true. Tell that to Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, or Conte...
Mourinho won way more trophies than Klopp

It’s interesting to watch on forums how words get subtly changed . It was a post of mine you are referring to and I didn’t say that “playing defensive in modern football would be suicide”. I was responding to a poster who had gone back to FM13 and been successful with a defensive mentality, low tempo, sit- back-and-absorb-pressure tactic. He said that such a tactic would be “suicide” in FM24 and I replied that it would be suicide in real football too because the game has changed so much since then.

That isn’t the same as saying that “playing defensive in modern football” would fail. Clearly, it is a valid approach. But defensive football in 2023-4 is not the same as defensive football in 2013 (which was the comparison point). Mourinho’s tactics don’t work any more. How many trophies has he won since Klopp started winning trophies?

The all-encompassing rise of pressing and positional play has sucked a lot of the tactical variation out of modern football. There are few genuine clashes of styles, just clashes of tactical tinkering on themes of pressing and covering space. FM24’s ME reflects that tactical dominance, which is in one way a shame but in another at least true to real life.

What SI have not done is to reflect the downsides of gegenpressing on injuries and fatigue. A combination of physical attributes being overwhelmingly dominant and deliberately reduced injury rates means there are no consequences to all-in pressing in FM, whereas in real life teams trying that would be exhausted by Christmas and have half the squad out injured.

The tactical presets and instructions have also not been updated. They include historic styles that no team plays any more. Mentality remains the most confusing and counter-intuitive concept in the game.

So I don’t think the dominance of gegenpressing in FM24 is a ME problem. I think it’s a problem of SI deciding not to include the downsides to playing that way, while leaving in outdated tactical styles and inaccurate descriptions.

Changing the ME is difficult. Tweaking injury rates is not. There’s a mod for it that only uses the free editor. I have some sympathy with SI’s desire to avoid a tsunami of complaints from players who lose half their squad, but I personally think that would be preferable to the current tsunami of complaints about one style of football obliterating all others.

Edited February 17 by NineCloudNine

[g1nh0]

23 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It’s interesting to watch on forums how words get subtly changed . It was a post of mine you are referring to and I didn’t say that “playing defensive in modern football would be suicide”. I was responding to a poster who had gone back to FM13 and been successful with a defensive mentality, low tempo, sit- back-and-absorb-pressure tactic. He said that such a tactic would be “suicide” in FM24 and I replied that it would be suicide in real football too because the game has changed so much since then.

That isn’t the same as saying that “playing defensive in modern football” would fail. Clearly, it is a valid approach. But defensive football in 2023-4 is not the same as defensive football in 2013 (which was the comparison point). Mourinho’s tactics don’t work any more. How many trophies has he won since Klopp started winning trophies?

The all-encompassing rise of pressing and positional play has sucked a lot of the tactical variation out of modern football. There are few genuine clashes of styles, just clashes of tactical tinkering on themes of pressing and covering space. FM24’s ME reflects that tactical dominance, which is in one way a shame but in another at least true to real life.

What SI have not done is to reflect the downsides of gegenpressing on injuries and fatigue. A combination of physical attributes being overwhelmingly dominant and deliberately reduced injury rates means there are no consequences to all-in pressing in FM, whereas in real life teams trying that would be exhausted by Christmas and have half the squad out injured.

The tactical presets and instructions have also not been updated. They include historic styles that no team plays any more. Mentality remains the most confusing and counter-intuitive concept in the game.

So I don’t think the dominance of gegenpressing in FM24 is a ME problem. I think it’s a problem of SI deciding not to include the downsides to playing that way, while leaving in outdated tactical styles and inaccurate descriptions.

Changing the ME is difficult. Tweaking injury rates is not. There’s a mod for it that only uses the free editor. I have some sympathy with SI’s desire to avoid a tsunami of complaints from players who lose half their squad, but I personally think that would be preferable to the current tsunami of complaints about one style of football obliterating all others.

What clubs has Mourinho been at since Klopp started winning trophies? He's been at teams far inferior to Liverpool and had no backing in the transfer market (not at least with him getting his prime targets). He's also lately not had one season at Roma without an injury crisis that lasts under half a season. And yet he's still got them to two Euro finals with one victory.

As a manager, you're only as good as your team at the end of the day. Klopp when he first came in at Pool was struggling in mid-table, until he was backed and brought in world class players. Pep had a tough first season at City, they then splashed the cash each year and we all know the rest. 

So yes, gegenpressing being OP'd is still a problem. As a philosophy for doing well in the league consistently, then yes that is fine it is a highly positive / aggressive approach which, "providing" you have players suited to play the system effectively,  it should indeed give you a good league performance. (although attributes don't actually matter in this year's FM - that's another issue in itself).

But when you have specific game profile of matches (one off big clashes / European games / or far inferior to the opposition you are playing), where it is smarter to play more pragmatic, and players can motivate themselves easier for more one off games, then this ME is a HUGE problem.

I'm sure I've seen examples already given with clubs still winning trophies by playing cautious football in games (Roma ofc 2 euro finals, WHU, Real Madrid, Inter reaching a UCL final), and you'll also see some of the smaller sides be able to take points off, or beat superior teams in league games by not playing dumb and going "toe to toe" playing the same approach.

And when you add in the fact, this is supposed to be a game as well then I think to make it more enjoyable for a variety number of players, you should be able to succeed use more than one tactical philosophy that can work well - and also have the ability to use more than the bog standard roles to a good effect (such as enganche, trequartista etc).

At the moment, you cannot use anything other than gegenpressing, and you cannot use any more exquisite roles - which makes the game a snoozefest, and it seems a bit pointless having these roles in the game if they aren't feasible to be used.

So for me, this game:

-really needs a balancing act with being able to successfully use different tactical philosophies to a good level

-correct the OP roles / exploits that are more prominent in this year's game (x2 DM-s and generally anything illogical when it comes to role choice that works), which at this moment is ruining the game, especially in non single player games

-be able to play more pragmatically in certain profile games with a better degree of success, and be able to exploit teams that gegenpress with a higher line especially whose squads do not have the attributes to play gegenpress effectively. (like you could last year's FM)

-still be able to use more roles that perhaps are redundant in the modern day to a good level of success, so there is a purpose for them being in the game

Appreciate it may not be the easiest task to achieve everything - but the most important aspects do need to be ironed out for this last patch, and SI should strive to try and achieve the above, and I think naturally this would actually please the majority of players because you can then do / create so much more when playing football manager.

[Rodrigogc]

41 minutos atrás, g1nh0 disse:

 

At the moment, you cannot use anything other than gegenpressing, and you cannot use any more exquisite roles - which makes the game a snoozefest, and it seems a bit pointless having these roles in the game if they aren't feasible to be used.

 

This is one hell of a bizarre thing. Each position has at least 4 available roles, yet I (and I believe lots of people) only use the same ones knowing that some will just not work. I believe, in total, there must be 45~55 roles available and I can bet most people don't even use 20 of them. 

Edited February 17 by Rodrigogc

[NineCloudNine]

30 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

So for me, this game:

-really needs a balancing act with being able to successfully use different tactical philosophies to a good level

-correct the OP roles / exploits that are more prominent in this year's game (x2 DM-s and generally anything illogical when it comes to role choice that works), which at this moment is ruining the game, especially in non single player games

-be able to play more pragmatically in certain profile games with a better degree of success, and be able to exploit teams that gegenpress with a higher line especially whose squads do not have the attributes to play gegenpress effectively. (like you could last year's FM)

-still be able to use more roles that perhaps are redundant in the modern day to a good level of success, so there is a purpose for them being in the game

If you are expecting any of this to happen in the upcoming patch/update then you are in for a crushing disappointment.

I particularly enjoyed the suggestion that "roles that perhaps are redundant the in modern day" should be made relevant in a game which is intended to be a reflection of...modern day football. There are no Enganches (for example) in modern football. Such roles and styles like Catenaccio are in the game as historical relics. I wish that wasn't the case because as mentioned above I think modern football lacks variety and flavour. But it is and it's right for SI to reflect this.

Your wishlist goes beyond the dominance of gegenpressing in FM24. You don't just want FM to be different, you want football to be different. Or at least, for FM to give you the ability to play in a world where football is different. I respect that, but your quest is doomed to fail.

The simpler task of reining in gegenpressing in FM would be achieved by implementing realistic injury and fatigue rates. The problem isn't that gegenpressing is OP in itself, it's that FM allows any team to gegenpress with no negative consequences.

[g1nh0]

54 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

If you are expecting any of this to happen in the upcoming patch/update then you are in for a crushing disappointment.

I particularly enjoyed the suggestion that "roles that perhaps are redundant the in modern day" should be made relevant in a game which is intended to be a reflection of...modern day football. There are no Enganches (for example) in modern football. Such roles and styles like Catenaccio are in the game as historical relics. I wish that wasn't the case because as mentioned above I think modern football lacks variety and flavour. But it is and it's right for SI to reflect this.

Your wishlist goes beyond the dominance of gegenpressing in FM24. You don't just want FM to be different, you want football to be different. Or at least, for FM to give you the ability to play in a world where football is different. I respect that, but your quest is doomed to fail.

The simpler task of reining in gegenpressing in FM would be achieved by implementing realistic injury and fatigue rates. The problem isn't that gegenpressing is OP in itself, it's that FM allows any team to gegenpress with no negative consequences.

That's what I want - but yes, I don't expect, not in FM 24 at least.

And the main reason for that, is because at a fundamental level the game is flawed. Because the only way this can truly happen to a good level, is if attributes matter - and the fact there is also an imbalance of how attributes impact the individual player, along with tactics, means it makes it extremely hard to have those required intricacies to bring about, at least my wishes of redundant roles to be effective, providing you have that profile of a player that can truly make those roles shine.

However, the fact FM 23 was considerably better than this FM 24 engine for having a greater ME balance, to me would suggest the last patch is very do-able to make more pragmatic setups work to a better extent in certain games, and naturally reduce the effectiveness of gegenpressing to at least, a better than level it currently is. 

Naturally, this would allow more tactical styles to work, along with improving the level of difficulty of this game too, which due to how overpowered gegenpressing is, has made it way to easy.

I also think any exploit roles should be attended to top priority, and that is something that must be balanced out, which I'm sure if SI are willing to put time to fix to a good level, they would. All these are not unreasonable requests, and are ones that based from last year's game, I would expect to see in a polished version of Fm24.

Anything less, would be a huge huge disappointment considering all the promises made for this year's game.

Edited February 17 by g1nh0

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

What clubs has Mourinho been at since Klopp started winning trophies? He's been at teams far inferior to Liverpool and had no backing in the transfer market (not at least with him getting his prime targets). He's also lately not had one season at Roma without an injury crisis that lasts under half a season. And yet he's still got them to two Euro finals with one victory.

As a manager, you're only as good as your team at the end of the day. Klopp when he first came in at Pool was struggling in mid-table, until he was backed and brought in world class players. Pep had a tough first season at City, they then splashed the cash each year and we all know the rest. 

So yes, gegenpressing being OP'd is still a problem. As a philosophy for doing well in the league consistently, then yes that is fine it is a highly positive / aggressive approach which, "providing" you have players suited to play the system effectively,  it should indeed give you a good league performance. (although attributes don't actually matter in this year's FM - that's another issue in itself).

But when you have specific game profile of matches (one off big clashes / European games / or far inferior to the opposition you are playing), where it is smarter to play more pragmatic, and players can motivate themselves easier for more one off games, then this ME is a HUGE problem.

I'm sure I've seen examples already given with clubs still winning trophies by playing cautious football in games (Roma ofc 2 euro finals, WHU, Real Madrid, Inter reaching a UCL final), and you'll also see some of the smaller sides be able to take points off, or beat superior teams in league games by not playing dumb and going "toe to toe" playing the same approach.

And when you add in the fact, this is supposed to be a game as well then I think to make it more enjoyable for a variety number of players, you should be able to succeed use more than one tactical philosophy that can work well - and also have the ability to use more than the bog standard roles to a good effect (such as enganche, trequartista etc).

At the moment, you cannot use anything other than gegenpressing, and you cannot use any more exquisite roles - which makes the game a snoozefest, and it seems a bit pointless having these roles in the game if they aren't feasible to be used.

So for me, this game:

-really needs a balancing act with being able to successfully use different tactical philosophies to a good level

-correct the OP roles / exploits that are more prominent in this year's game (x2 DM-s and generally anything illogical when it comes to role choice that works), which at this moment is ruining the game, especially in non single player games

-be able to play more pragmatically in certain profile games with a better degree of success, and be able to exploit teams that gegenpress with a higher line especially whose squads do not have the attributes to play gegenpress effectively. (like you could last year's FM)

-still be able to use more roles that perhaps are redundant in the modern day to a good level of success, so there is a purpose for them being in the game

Appreciate it may not be the easiest task to achieve everything - but the most important aspects do need to be ironed out for this last patch, and SI should strive to try and achieve the above, and I think naturally this would actually please the majority of players because you can then do / create so much more when playing football manager.

But you sound like Mourinho never had a plan b when he needs to score. I admit I don't watch Roma too much but I was watching them against Inter the other day for last half an hour and it was them who were playing on front foot. Fast attacking modern football. I don't know how he approaches home games or against poor teams but this is just a thing of preference and like any other team he will have attacking style tactic and defensive one. While I agree with most of what you said about gegenpress and defending deep in ME, modern football is all about fast tempo, finding space and transitions be it counterattacking or attacking style. The only other style I can think of, the control possession is not so popular anymore because of the reasons I mentioned before. Today you can only afford to play such way if you have the right players.

[wazzaflow10]

11 hours ago, dubbed5 said:

Some people look at it in black and white, that you either press like Liverpool or stand still and do nothing.

Football is not like that. Of course, all of the teams press.
Even Mourinho's teams do press. But differently, and not as much as Klopp's teams.

For example, Simeone's Atletico Madrid is known for their disciplined and organized defensive structure.
They do press, but their approach is not as immediate or intense as gegenpressing.
They prioritize defensive shape and defend in a more compact and structured manner.
They force opponents into less dangerous areas and then capitalize on turnovers.
It's very different than the immediate, all-out press seen in gegenpressing.
 

 

No, I'm not saying that I wanna park the bus in every single game for 90 mins.
Nobody does that, not even Mourinho.
But I do want a balanced ME where I can play defensive when I want to.
And it's a fact that modern FMs favor gegenpressing.

Also, someone earlier said that playing defensive in modern football would be suicide.
This is just simply not true. Tell that to Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, or Conte...
Mourinho won way more trophies than Klopp.

Football is so complex; it's not just about scoring goals and chasing the ball. We have FIFA for that...

But that last tactic isn't doing any pressing by virtue of you selecting much less pressing. You've basically told them to never challenge man on the ball with those instructions.

So it's not even a Mourinho or Simeone. There's plenty of variations of those in the tactics forums though if you wanted to play that way.

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

But you sound like Mourinho never had a plan b when he needs to score. I admit I don't watch Roma too much but I was watching them against Inter the other day for last half an hour and it was them who were playing on front foot. Fast attacking modern football. I don't know how he approaches home games or against poor teams but this is just a thing of preference and like any other team he will have attacking style tactic and defensive one. While I agree with most of what you said about gegenpress and defending deep in ME, modern football is all about fast tempo, finding space and transitions be it counterattacking or attacking style. The only other style I can think of, the control possession is not so popular anymore because of the reasons I mentioned before. Today you can only afford to play such way if you have the right players.

Oh no, he's always had another plan. Jose has always been misunderstood. He works out his tactical plans based on the players he has at his disposal. Just naturally, he is more pragmatic by default.

For instance at Inter, in his first season he recognised he didn't have the personnel to be durable enough to be more aggressive when they needed to push for a goal. Without having a quick enough back line, he would obviously play a safer first mentality.

Second season, he was able to get from his demand a pacey centre-back in Lucio, which was key to give him the ability to play a higher line when needing to be more aggressive with getting a goal - and of course with having that extra tool in his armoury, we all know what he achieved.

With Real Madrid, he had the players to let them be more expressive, but they would also be smart when they needed to be and hit teams on the counter at lightning pace.

When you look at his most recent clubs, they've lacked pace at the back nor had an ability to be able to play out comfortably from the back. So rather than take risks playing a high line and be continually exposed (such as relying on Dier in a high line - whom big Anj has refused to play in his v high line system for this very reason), he would look to play a more counter-attacking style.

It was a similar story with United too, where the players they had were more effective playing counter-direct football as playing more offensively would leave too many holes defensively, such as their slow back line with Smalling and Phil Jones, or players that won't track back like Pogba.

--

And yes, football has been ruined in the modern day - I'm just saying that it would be nice from a gaming perspective, to allow roles in the game to still thrive in the right team environment, and work well.

For instance the Trequartista role, someone like Ozil would be perfect for it. As a player he lacked work-rate and stamina to be effective in the modern day, and I would expect that reflected in football manager. He also wasn't at perhaps that real top tier player level to be relied upon to be a match winner for his team on a regular basis.

But if you have a world-class player amongst your ranks that is a match winner (A Zidane or Ronaldinho), or someone like Ozil but with a greater work-rate to fall back into positions where a Trequartista can be useful from a defensive perspective, then such a tactic implementing one should work - and work well, providing there is balance to the tactic with players behind him that can cover that creative roaming role effectively.

But without attributes working properly to allow certain players to thrive in these more specialist roles, this can't be implemented anytime soon.

[NineCloudNine]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

But you sound like Mourinho never had a plan b when he needs to score. I admit I don't watch Roma too much but I was watching them against Inter the other day for last half an hour and it was them who were playing on front foot. Fast attacking modern football. I don't know how he approaches home games or against poor teams but this is just a thing of preference and like any other team he will have attacking style tactic and defensive one.

Mourinho was fired by Roma a few weeks ago and has been replaced by Danielle De Rossi, who has immediately increased the tempo and attacking intent of the team. That's what you saw against Inter.

It is correct that while at Roma Mourinho was restricted by severe financial limitations and was overly dependent on injury-prone players like Dybala. However, he also perseveres with very negative tactics which don't bring results and eventually alienates the fans even before he starts to bring the toxic behaviour. He's at least a decade past his time.