Most Balanced Match Engine?

[dubbed5]

Hey guys. Please give me some recommendations; which FM has the most balanced match engine?

I'm a veteran FM player, played more than 1k hours with FM13, but skipped every game since then. I really like to play defensive tactics like catenaccio and slow tempo tiki-taka. I had huge successes with these kinds of tactics in older FMs, winning leagues with mid-level teams.

Wanted to get back into FM, so I bought FM24 and after ~150 hours of playing, I'm truly disappointed. Match engine is broken, it's all about high tempo and pressing, nothing else works.

For me, one of the most rewarding and addictive features in the older FMs was the tactical variety. That I could succeed with any kind of tactic if I had the right players. It was super addictive starting new saves and playing with different approaches, succeeding with many different tactical styles.

Which FM would you recommend for me? Many people seem to praise FM17 as one of the better match engines. Should I give that one a try, or it's also just about high tempo and pressing?

[Johnny Ace]

I'm not sure how far they go back on Steam, but may be worth checking out a few demos 

I always like FM17, I think FM15 was pretty decent too. They feel dated going back and playing those games now though 

[JimmysTheBestCop]

You can certainly play low tempo and not press at all. If I am an underdog I am not playing fast or pressing Man City or PSG or Barca. If I wanted try to keep close. But I'm also not going into a shell. 

You can have a sound defense. However I would say anything below balanced for mentality and your chances to win drop like a lead balloon. 

The other question is can you do it 100% of the time?

The weaker the team the more defensive they will play if you are also playing defensive well you are gonna draw. 

Now unless you built your team to be better then anyone. There has been times I called the dogs off and played super defensive as it might have been 5-0 already but then my team still scores 3 more. 

I've had success in low block but I was positive mentality. 

Maybe you should run some simulations in fm24 without actually playing a save first?

Then you can compare types of tactics and see the output for yourself. 

 

Take top mid bottom Prem team simulate the 1st season 20 times. 

 

Edited January 26 by JimmysTheBestCop

[alian62]

Why do people always say the game is broken when they themselves have issues. 

The game isn't broken.  It's perfectly playable.  

If it was broken no one would be playing it . 

[Marko1989]

I would agree about FM 2015. That was the FM I played the most. I don't remember anything overpowered. If I am not wrong, for example, in 2016 crossing was overpowered

What I like the most in FM 2015 is how players behave in certain roles and player traits. For example, inside forwards were really great. If you learn inside forward "get forward whenever possible" you can really see that in Match Engine. You pair him with false 9 and you can really see how that trait changes the game. 

And Barcelona tiki taka formation worked really well for me in that FM

Also, if you like to play in 2D, FM 2015 still has that nice looking 2D ME and not this abomination we have today

Edited January 26 by Marko1989

[Novem9]

8 часов назад, dubbed5 сказал:

Hey guys. Please give me some recommendations; which FM has the most balanced match engine?

I'm a veteran FM player, played more than 1k hours with FM13, but skipped every game since then. I really like to play defensive tactics like catenaccio and slow tempo tiki-taka. I had huge successes with these kinds of tactics in older FMs, winning leagues with mid-level teams.

Wanted to get back into FM, so I bought FM24 and after ~150 hours of playing, I'm truly disappointed. Match engine is broken, it's all about high tempo and pressing, nothing else works.

For me, one of the most rewarding and addictive features in the older FMs was the tactical variety. That I could succeed with any kind of tactic if I had the right players. It was super addictive starting new saves and playing with different approaches, succeeding with many different tactical styles.

Which FM would you recommend for me? Many people seem to praise FM17 as one of the better match engines. Should I give that one a try, or it's also just about high tempo and pressing?

I would like to point out that your text is almost unreadable in a dark theme.

On topic, all MEs have an imbalance. Considering that each new edition becomes a little deeper and more thoughtful, it makes more sense to play the latest version. I tried several times to return to previous versions after playing a new one - it’s almost impossible

[Litmanen 10]

FM 2013 in my opinion. FM 2009 was decent too. 

[Mikema26]

I've tried all releases more or less since CM back in the 90s. When it comes recent versions the only balanced match engine is that of FM21 (I still play that version today after noticing the mess that 2024 is). You can prolly find FM2021 cheap, somewhere around 10-15 quid. That's the only way to go (trust me and thank me later). Now, if u don't mind the more dated overall feel and the lack of some cool additions present in FM2021 u can also try FM2017 which is also balanced (although I've noticed that goals from direct free kicks are extremely rare in that one). Cheers

[Etebaer]

FM13 was the FM that hooked me for a long time after playing the late FM Online and a little FM11 until i started over with FM16 for other reasons than the ME (CaC it was what i liked).

Since then i have played every FM each following year and i feel FM13 still holds up itself (not visually but as whole game) while FM24 is the most entertaining 3D game and the ME we can only judge after the last patches and maybe the whole game with the realism mod form Daveincid that i also use.

If i had to go back to a specific FM version that would not be FM24 it would be FM13 for sure!

[wazzaflow10]

54 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

Since then i have played every FM each following year and i feel FM13 still holds up itself

I played 13 and thought the ball physics were way, way off. You'd have crazy banana ball effects or marble in a bathtub.

[Etebaer]

Well, Ball Physics were surely 2013 like and not the FM24 way although they are merely a visual anyway and i am sure displayed after the fact so i deem them not really concerning.

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, Etebaer said:

Well, Ball Physics were surely 2013 like and not the FM24 way although they are merely a visual anyway and i am sure displayed after the fact so i deem them not really concerning.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here to be honest.

[dubbed5]

20 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

However I would say anything below balanced for mentality and your chances to win drop like a lead balloon. 

Yes, in FM13 I LOVED playing with defensive tactics, with either "counter" or "defensive" mentality. But in FM24 I failed with all my saves trying to do that. Then I read around, and people say gegenpressing with balanced, positive or attacking mentality is the only way that really works.

I started a new save with FC Twente using the standard gegenpressing tactic, without changing anything. No new signings. In January, we were sitting 2nd in the league, 1 point below Feyenoord. We even beat Ajax, and only lost 0-1 to Feyenoord. In the European Conference League, we finished 1st place in the group. It was so easy that I stopped playing this save.

There is testing about mentalities on fm-arena, simulating thousands of matches in testing leagues, and it verifies this. Cautious, defensive, and very defensive mentalities unfortunately don't perform well in newer FMs.

[dubbed5]

I reinstalled FM13 and did a quick testing.

I picked the team predicted to finish 10th in the PL, Aston Villa.

I set up a simple 4-1-4-1 defensive tactic:
-Defensive mentality, rigid philosophy
-Deep defensive line, hold position, stand off (no pressing)
-More direct passing, slow tempo, counter attack on

 

Holidayed until end of the year, ticking on "use current tactic".
The team sat at a decent 7th place:

 

As you would expect from such a tactic, they had solid, reliable defense.
And they didn't score much (besides 2 lucky games against Reading and Q.P.R.).

 

FM13 felt like a tactical simulator, with balanced tactical styles. It was all logical.
Basically, ANY tactical style worked as long as you had the right players.
You could replicate almost any team's playing style.

I jumped back to FM24, using the same tactic with the 10th predicted PL team, West Ham.

 

Well, by the time I came back from my 6-month-long Hawaiian vacation, I was already sacked:

 

Notice zero clean sheets in the PL, often conceding 3-4 goals.

Okay, I decided to start a new save and test one of the official preset tactics.
These were made by SI games; surely they know what they are doing.
I picked the catenaccio, as I loved playing that style in FM13:

 

Logic would tell us that playing such a compact defensive formation, with defensive mentality will result in good defense.
Well, FM24 match engine disagrees:

 

Actually I was sacked earlier this time.
Look at those results, 0-4, 1-4, 0-4, 0-3. Oh my...

I was curious what happens if I use the mighty gegenpressing tactic with the same team:

 

Surprise, surprise, not only did I still have a job by the end of the year, but West Ham actually overachieved:

 

The funny thing is, even though playing a high tempo, high d-line attacking football as a mid-level team, they had a very solid defense:

 

Playing on defensive mentality and slow tempo is suicide in FM24.
Basically, sitting back and absorbing pressure doesn't work anymore.
The match engine is seriously unbalanced.
Use high tempo, pressing, balanced/positive/attacking mentality and you will overachieve.
Try anything else, and it's a struggle.

The guys at fm-arena did tons of testing, millions of simulated games in fair testing league.
The results are really eye-opening.

[Etebaer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb wazzaflow10:

I have no idea what you're trying to say here to be honest.

The FM13 Ball Physic that is displayed is merely a visual and not real physic so it does not matter to me as long the ME works well.

[dannyo666]

On 26/01/2024 at 15:27, Marko1989 said:

I would agree about FM 2015. That was the FM I played the most. I don't remember anything overpowered. If I am not wrong, for example, in 2016 crossing was overpowered

What I like the most in FM 2015 is how players behave in certain roles and player traits. For example, inside forwards were really great. If you learn inside forward "get forward whenever possible" you can really see that in Match Engine. You pair him with false 9 and you can really see how that trait changes the game. 

And Barcelona tiki taka formation worked really well for me in that FM

Also, if you like to play in 2D, FM 2015 still has that nice looking 2D ME and not this abomination we have today

Yeah im back on 15 with a nostalgia save but man is it good game nostalgia or not....Super ME...i play on 2d so dont care about graphics.....recently started getting crash dumps though and cannot figure it out...driving me mad as its a great save im playing

[silentwars]

It's like with direct football - it's very hard to make it work successfully on modern FM - certainly without a high press it's suicidal. 

How many times IRL do you see a club in relegation trouble hire a defensive direct manager and them have results. Yet try that on FM and you're asking for trouble. It would be nice if the tactical system was more balanced and not favoured towards high pressing & possession based football.  

Edited January 28 by silentwars

[Ein]

Interesting. Which would you say is the latest FM version that still has a balanced ME?

[Rodrigogc]

I just downloaded FM2013 here and played a couple of matches. I'm astonished! I remember playing FM12 and FM15 a lot, but didn't remember the FM13 ME was so good. You can literally control everything, i switched playing styles within a game and watching the full match could really see them working properly. 

Think I'll give it a shot for a while, because the ME is basically all I care about playing FM. FM13 has got a lot of great middle pitch build up as well, with players retaining the ball instead of just hoofing it over as we often see in FM24.

[g1nh0]

30 minutes ago, Ein said:

Interesting. Which would you say is the latest FM version that still has a balanced ME?

Great post from dubbed5 above - I honestly can't remember when the ME has been balanced, not anytime recently anyway. Perhaps last patch of FM23 for me was the most balanced, to an extent but still a general lack of variety of tactical styles was viable as a whole.

Always left disappointed with each version, because pragmatic football is way too ineffective and gegenpress was always vastly overpowered. Possession football hasn't worked well either, apart from FM22 it was more viable. I had hoped this year's would have the best balance from what was advertised / being worked on. But I think this year's is the most imbalanced not only tactically but even with individual roles, with only one patch left to change it.

 

[Litmanen 10]

4 hours ago, dannyo666 said:

Yeah im back on 15 with a nostalgia save but man is it good game nostalgia or not....Super ME...i play on 2d so dont care about graphics.....recently started getting crash dumps though and cannot figure it out...driving me mad as its a great save im playing

Two big issues I remember in FM 2015 were dribbling and overlaps. I remember having Adama Traore in your team was something else. Constant long runs down the flank before putting in a perfect cross. I think his average dribbles per game were over 10. I also remember overlapping full-backs constantly being able to escape down the flank to put in free crosses. 

I think this was also the era when deep lying forwards were playing like deep lying playmaker and having 60+ pass attempts per game. Nothing as crazy as in FM 2017 for example but anyway. 

All these things have been balanced to the more recent versions of FM but still I'd say FM 2013 is by far the best in terms of balance. 

[Ein]

In FM20 I remember doing well both with a slow-tempo possession tactic (with Spurs, who had a technical but slow squad) and a direct fast-paced tactic (with Roma who were required to play direct by the board and had Dzeko as a TM). However, in both instances I employed a positive mentality. In fact, many successful defensive/pragmatic tactics posted here on the forum still use a normal/positive/attacking mentality (then adjust the player roles and TIs accordingly). So I suspect that, essentially, the mentality "slider" is broken.

Furthermore, the default tactical templates do not make sense. Defensive tactics like catenaccio have lower mentalities (which by default means less pressing, lower tempo, safer passing, etc) but on top of that still have all the TIs that do those things selected. Again, I suspect that mentality is a relic from past FM tactical systems that no longer works in the current system.

 

 

[Rodrigogc]

Actually Mentality these days means risk, meaning lower mentalities = less riks, higher mentality = more risk. If you set up a tactic with lower mentality and do not press, your team will become too passive and the game will punish you. I think in past FMs mentality did not mean risk at all.

Now, if you want to counter attack, you can set up a mid block and perhaps lower block, but probably a mentality like positive would work better, because when you get the ball your players will take risk to counter attack. Meanwhile, to have a more possession based style, probably a mentality like cautious combined with high pressing would suit better, because your team will press up the pitch but will not take much risks with the ball due to the lower mentality. (Probably Man City would play this way). 

I like how tactics work these days, my problem with the ME now is that it is not balanced, like people said - and I don't like the way the center of the pitch is not well explored, sometimes players seem to ignore they could pass the ball through the middle with the occasional threaded pass, and instead they bypass certain areas of the pitch to hoof the ball or cross. I played here a couple of matches in FM13 and there is good play from the flanks but also through the middle. 

 

Quality is bad, but this is something in FM13 that is just a beauty to watch:

 

 

Edited January 28 by Rodrigogc

[JimmysTheBestCop]

On 27/01/2024 at 00:50, dubbed5 said:

I reinstalled FM13 and did a quick testing.

I picked the team predicted to finish 10th in the PL, Aston Villa.

I set up a simple 4-1-4-1 defensive tactic:
-Defensive mentality, rigid philosophy
-Deep defensive line, hold position, stand off (no pressing)
-More direct passing, slow tempo, counter attack on

 

Holidayed until end of the year, ticking on "use current tactic".
The team sat at a decent 7th place:

 

As you would expect from such a tactic, they had solid, reliable defense.
And they didn't score much (besides 2 lucky games against Reading and Q.P.R.).

 

FM13 felt like a tactical simulator, with balanced tactical styles. It was all logical.
Basically, ANY tactical style worked as long as you had the right players.
You could replicate almost any team's playing style.

I jumped back to FM24, using the same tactic with the 10th predicted PL team, West Ham.

 

Well, by the time I came back from my 6-month-long Hawaiian vacation, I was already sacked:

 

Notice zero clean sheets in the PL, often conceding 3-4 goals.

Okay, I decided to start a new save and test one of the official preset tactics.
These were made by SI games; surely they know what they are doing.
I picked the catenaccio, as I loved playing that style in FM13:

 

Logic would tell us that playing such a compact defensive formation, with defensive mentality will result in good defense.
Well, FM24 match engine disagrees:

 

Actually I was sacked earlier this time.
Look at those results, 0-4, 1-4, 0-4, 0-3. Oh my...

I was curious what happens if I use the mighty gegenpressing tactic with the same team:

 

Surprise, surprise, not only did I still have a job by the end of the year, but West Ham actually overachieved:

 

The funny thing is, even though playing a high tempo, high d-line attacking football as a mid-level team, they had a very solid defense:

 

Playing on defensive mentality and slow tempo is suicide in FM24.
Basically, sitting back and absorbing pressure doesn't work anymore.
The match engine is seriously unbalanced.
Use high tempo, pressing, balanced/positive/attacking mentality and you will overachieve.
Try anything else, and it's a struggle.

The guys at fm-arena did tons of testing, millions of simulated games in fair testing league.
The results are really eye-opening.

I actually think both of the defensive tactics would work with the mentality set to balanced. 

I think you would still play strong defensive and score some. 

Once below balanced you have almost zero shot at getting any goals and if the formation and instructions are also defensive you will end up giving up 1 or 2 goals. Unless your players are all world class. 

Feel like running the same test with balanced? 

I do feel fm24 favors the attacking mentality regardless of formation and instructions though. But I think you can make balanced work

[Ein]

4 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Now, if you want to counter attack, you can set up a mid block and perhaps lower block, but probably a mentality like positive would work better, because when you get the ball your players will take risk to counter attack.

This is another thing I could never understand. Is counter attacking football enabled by risk-taking (positive or higher mentality) or by selecting counter in the 'in transition' tactical screen which triggers counter attacks in the right circumstances? Once again, mentality (risk) seems to be superfluous because everything it does can be defined from the in possession, in transition and out of possession tactical screens. Selecting counter, counterpress, pressing more, direct passing, roaming from position, higher tempo, etc, etc all involve an element of risk.

[Rodrigogc]

30 minutos atrás, Ein disse:

This is another thing I could never understand. Is counter attacking football enabled by risk-taking (positive or higher mentality) or by selecting counter in the 'in transition' tactical screen which triggers counter attacks in the right circumstances? Once again, mentality (risk) seems to be superfluous because everything it does can be defined from the in possession, in transition and out of possession tactical screens. Selecting counter, counterpress, pressing more, direct passing, roaming from position, higher tempo, etc, etc all involve an element of risk.

Yes, it is very confusing, even experienced players struggle to understand. When I want to counter attack I usually combine Opposition instructions to trigger press and get the ball in the block and positive mentality to get my players to take risk as soon as they tackle the opponent. The Counter button is something I never use, because it instructs 7 players to throw bodies forward and it leaves too much space behind. You can even counter attack with Hold Shape, if using the OI well + right players to do the task (some players to tackle, some to pass the ball and some to run fast into space). 

Old Man Phil, a youtuber I follow, says he never uses the Counter button as well, and he likes solid defensive teams, so he only toggles Hold Shape and still can counter attack. FM instructions works fine, but you have to understand how to combine them and the game is very confusing in that way, new players might have a hard time trying to figure it all out, maybe that's why SI created presets that makes for easy wins. 

I agree that mentality meaning risk is weird, because it has become counterintuitive. You select Cautious or Defensive as mentality,  and your team start passing the ball slowly, which is ideal for possession football. It became very confusing.The whole thing started after the Tactic creator was implemented to disable the exploit tactics, but I think SI made it all very confusing and can't redo it again in a better explanatory way, hence the presets. 

The Counter button is similar to the pressure slide, it instructs the team to do what is required is a sloppy way, press more in the TI = players leave their positions to press. Counter buttton = players leave their positions to throw themselves forward ASAP. If you want better control of your team's actions, you better use OI to press and mentality combined with the right players to counter attack. 

Man city for instance, they never press the opponent in a sloppy way, in FM it would mean high defensive line, high block, OI to trigger press, pressure slide in the TI probably default or less pressure, and Hold Shape button so that players never leave gaps in the formation. For new players this is all quite confusing. because intuitively if you want to press the opponent you select pressing more and an attacking mentality, and what will happen is your team will become a complete mess on the pitch, leaving gaps and space behind and conceding goals from that. In the other way, intuitively if you want to counter attack you would select a lower mentality, low block but what happens when you do this is your team becomes too passive and when players retrieve the ball they are too far away from the opponent's goal to start a counter attack, leaving time for the opposition to recompose. That's why catenaccio in FM never works, because it means defending all the time and inviting the opposition in a very passive way. 

Edited January 28 by Rodrigogc

[Kickballz]

Interesting to hear so many match engines mentioned. I actually fired up and old save with fm17 recently and it was ...ok.

But I really don't think it is better than fm 24. In fact I don't think fm24 is better than fm 22, which for me is still the best match engine.

 

[Skora11]

How many successful teams play a defensive style these days IRL? 

If you look at just about every top team in world football they play a high press style. 

[Ein]

18 minutes ago, Skora11 said:

How many successful teams play a defensive style these days IRL? 

If you look at just about every top team in world football they play a high press style. 

Most top teams will play an attacking/high press style* because they can afford to buy the best players but it's still possible to do well/overachieve with defensive/counter attacking tactics. West Ham are a case in point. The OP's point is that it no longer seems possible to do well with a defensive tactic, as West Ham are doing IRL, in contract to an offensive tactic like gegenpress. 

*The claim is in itself arguable. We've had winners of European competitions (West Ham, Roma), winners of the Serie A (Conte's Inter), winners of La Liga (Atletico). Juventus are currently second with below average possession and progressive passes, etc.

[dannyo666]

18 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Actually Mentality these days means risk, meaning lower mentalities = less riks, higher mentality = more risk. If you set up a tactic with lower mentality and do not press, your team will become too passive and the game will punish you. I think in past FMs mentality did not mean risk at all.

Now, if you want to counter attack, you can set up a mid block and perhaps lower block, but probably a mentality like positive would work better, because when you get the ball your players will take risk to counter attack. Meanwhile, to have a more possession based style, probably a mentality like cautious combined with high pressing would suit better, because your team will press up the pitch but will not take much risks with the ball due to the lower mentality. (Probably Man City would play this way). 

I like how tactics work these days, my problem with the ME now is that it is not balanced, like people said - and I don't like the way the center of the pitch is not well explored, sometimes players seem to ignore they could pass the ball through the middle with the occasional threaded pass, and instead they bypass certain areas of the pitch to hoof the ball or cross. I played here a couple of matches in FM13 and there is good play from the flanks but also through the middle. 

 

Quality is bad, but this is something in FM13 that is just a beauty to watch:

 

 

Im getting this on 15-Im blown away....the old match engines are so much better.....Instructions carried out to a tee.....bizarre.....may have a look at 13 next as i had a sweet save there aswel

[g1nh0]

2 minutes ago, Ein said:

Most top teams will play an attacking/high press style* because they can afford to buy the best players but it's still possible to do well/overachieve with defensive/counter attacking tactics. West Ham are a case in point. The OP's point is that it no longer seems possible to do well with a defensive tactic, as West Ham are doing IRL, in contract to an offensive tactic like gegenpress. 

*The claim is in itself arguable. We've had winners of European competitions (West Ham, Roma), winners of the Serie A (Conte's Inter), winners of La Liga (Atletico). Juventus are currently second with below average possession and progressive passes, etc.

Exactly the above. Pragmatic football against superior teams can still be very effective and especially in Europe & in bigger one off games, and it should be the go to approach if you are an inferior team, unless you have a team that isn't geared to defend that well.

But in FM irrespective of your sides capabilities to defend, you get spanked if you try that approach at least in this year's version.

Don't forget Real's UCL win vs Liverpool too. If you have the right players and defenders to play it, it should be feasible to use.

[Skora11]

14 minutes ago, Ein said:

Most top teams will play an attacking/high press style* because they can afford to buy the best players but it's still possible to do well/overachieve with defensive/counter attacking tactics. West Ham are a case in point. The OP's point is that it no longer seems possible to do well with a defensive tactic, as West Ham are doing IRL, in contract to an offensive tactic like gegenpress. 

*The claim is in itself arguable. We've had winners of European competitions (West Ham, Roma), winners of the Serie A (Conte's Inter), winners of La Liga (Atletico). Juventus are currently second with below average possession and progressive passes, etc.

The teams you have mentioned might set up in a more defensive minded formation but there is no way you can say Conte's or Simeone's teams don't do a hell of a lot of pressing. 

[Rodrigogc]

59 minutos atrás, g1nh0 disse:

Exactly the above. Pragmatic football against superior teams can still be very effective and especially in Europe & in bigger one off games, and it should be the go to approach if you are an inferior team, unless you have a team that isn't geared to defend that well.

But in FM irrespective of your sides capabilities to defend, you get spanked if you try that approach at least in this year's version.

Don't forget Real's UCL win vs Liverpool too. If you have the right players and defenders to play it, it should be feasible to use.

Not only that, gegenpressing seems to work irrespective of your side capabilities to attack as well, which is bizarre because it should require very specific players to work since it exhaust players mentally and physically. The inbalance is huge, no matter how well your players defend, playing defensively you will concede and no matter how well your players attack, playing offensively you will score.

It's like: To setup an offensive tactic is easy and you don't need proper players to achieve success, to setup a defensive tactic is hard and even with the proper players to play this style it won't work most of the time.

The way to play FM now is: Managing big teams = press

Managing mid table teams= press, you might get wins against big teams

Managing weak teams = you better press or you will concede and might win some matches against stronger teams.

 

So, always press.

Edited January 29 by Rodrigogc

[NineCloudNine]

55 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Not only that, gegenpressing seems to work irrespective of your side capabilities to attack as well, which is bizarre because it should require very specific players to work since it exhaust players mentally and physically.

If SI were to implement accurate fatigue and injury rates from always-on gegenpressing, these forums would light up with complaints. Even now there are regular complaint threads from players who have exhausted their lower division team and think this is unrealistic because “look at Rodri IRL”. 

Ironically one way to reduce the efficacy of pressing is to use a realism mod with increased injuries. Then your players (and those of the AI) will break down if asked to full-on press all the time.

SI are between a rock and a hard place here.

Edited January 29 by NineCloudNine

[Ein]

3 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

If SI were to implement accurate fatigue and injury rates from always-on gegenpressing, these forums would light up with complaints. Even now there are regular complaint threads from players who have exhausted their lower division team and think this is unrealistic because “look at Rodri IRL”. 

I think they should focus on fixing the current balance problem instead of worrying about what might happen if they solve it or getting caught up in all sorts of hypothetical arguments that people could come up with. The priority should be on dealing with the existing imbalance rather than getting sidetracked by potential objections or imagined consequences. The supposed expectation that a lower division team ought to play like elite clubs is ridiculous and is not something that we as end users should cater to or worry about.

[NineCloudNine]

53 minutes ago, Ein said:

I think they should focus on fixing the current balance problem instead of worrying about what might happen if they solve it or getting caught up in all sorts of hypothetical arguments that people could come up with. The priority should be on dealing with the existing imbalance rather than getting sidetracked by potential objections or imagined consequences. The supposed expectation that a lower division team ought to play like elite clubs is ridiculous and is not something that we as end users should cater to or worry about.

I don’t think it’s hypothetical, it’s previous experience of player reactions. SI will also have structured testing and feedback which gives them a good balanced view of what players want and like.

My preference for realism is the same as yours. But I do understand the balancing act SI have here.

Edited January 29 by NineCloudNine

[g1nh0]

2 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Not only that, gegenpressing seems to work irrespective of your side capabilities to attack as well, which is bizarre because it should require very specific players to work since it exhaust players mentally and physically. The inbalance is huge, no matter how well your players defend, playing defensively you will concede and no matter how well your players attack, playing offensively you will score.

It's like: To setup an offensive tactic is easy and you don't need proper players to achieve success, to setup a defensive tactic is hard and even with the proper players to play this style it won't work most of the time.

The way to play FM now is: Managing big teams = press

Managing mid table teams= press, you might get wins against big teams

Managing weak teams = you better press or you will concede and might win some matches against stronger teams.

 

So, always press.

Indeed, and what's worst for me this year it's that its more prominent than before - I don't get what SI have been doing the whole year when backend of last year's was considerably better.

What's even worse is now with the OP gegenpress, just add in two DMs on support duty into any tactic and then you're onto a real winner lol.

Current state of the ME balance both tactically and with roles is a poor joke.

[wazzaflow10]

31 minutes ago, Ein said:

I think they should focus on fixing the current balance problem instead of worrying about what might happen if they solve it or getting caught up in all sorts of hypothetical arguments that people could come up with. The priority should be on dealing with the existing imbalance rather than getting sidetracked by potential objections or imagined consequences. The supposed expectation that a lower division team ought to play like elite clubs is ridiculous and is not something that we as end users should cater to or worry about.

The only evidence we have of imbalance is a select few people who don't seem to know how to set up defensive tactics in 24. The game is much more complicated than FM13 in terms of instructions and where players can go. Coupled with there's now team cohesion and tactical familiarity that didn't exist until a few years ago.

In this engine, you can't just pick a defensive formation and mentality not take into account how the other team is playing. The way players can rotate positions (IWB, IFB, LIB etc) mean you have to figure out your defensive shape and who marks who in defence. Playing defensively requires much more organization and if your team has poor concentration, positioning, and anticipation you're probably in for a bad time.

Its not really a secret as to why pressing works so well. Teams at the top have been trending and building towards that direction for years. Players have been training and developed to fit into that mold. Trying to make them play the complete opposite way is of course going to cause worse results in the short term. Trying to do nothing but park the bus for an entire season is obviously going to make you perform worse than trying to be proactive with and without the ball.

The last bit of it is some basic human psychology. Are we all really going to sit and watch match after match of a video game where most of our actions are defensive? Where we're barely hanging onto a 1-0 draw or hope to survive vs endless attacks? People are going to gravitate towards their team having the majority of highlights where there is something positive (like a shot or goal). So its no wonder many of the tactics that are put out are ultra aggressive that rack up 30 shots and score 5 goals are posted everywhere. I'm sure if there was the same focus someone could make a diablo tactic that would consistently reverse FM the game.

[wazzaflow10]

13 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Indeed, and what's worst for me this year it's that its more prominent than before - I don't get what SI have been doing the whole year when backend of last year's was considerably better.

No it wasn't. There was a huge issue with away teams not scoring enough goals AND centerbacks being completely fatigued by halftime just to start. Even SI came out and admitted FM23 was bad.

[g1nh0]

Yes it was, how can you tell me this year's game is more challenging and more tactically flexible when last year's you could use several different mentalities effectively, play more pragmatic football, counter attack, and high line gegenpress systems could actually be exploited?

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

Yes it was, how can you tell me this year's game is more challenging and more tactically flexible when last year's you could use several different mentalities effectively, play more pragmatic football, counter attack, and high line gegenpress systems could actually be exploited?

Because I've won games using mid blocks on balanced/cautious mentality. And lost to teams that sit back while i'm pressing. Counter attacking could be a bit more direct at times but it's not some impossible task.

You need to have the right players performing the right roles just like in real life. There's a reason why so many teams press. There's a shortage of press resistant players. Pressing players with low composure will result in more poor decisions which result in mistakes and goals. Sounds like you're ignoring a key attribute for escaping a press and getting punished.

Have a read in the tactics forum:

 

[Ein]

4 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

In this engine, you can't just pick a defensive formation and mentality not take into account how the other team is playing.

It's still unbalanced if you can't just pick a defensive formation without taking into account the multitude of factors you mention but then you can just pick up an attacking formation like gegenpress and overachieve by default.

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Have a read in the tactics forum:

Balanced mentality, mid block, high defensive line, press more, just 2 defensive duties. As I wrote earlier, even the purportedly defensive tactics that are posted on the forum are designed to be fairly offensive. That is more or less how I like to play and I don't consider it particularly defensive. I still get above average possession and certainly do not achieve these types of wins:

4 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

The last bit of it is some basic human psychology. Are we all really going to sit and watch match after match of a video game where most of our actions are defensive? Where we're barely hanging onto a 1-0 draw or hope to survive vs endless attacks?

That's mostly a caricatural description of defensive football though. Like in various styles of martial arts, defensive football is about using the opponent's initiative against him to create chances and deliver blows. The above example shows this clearly well with the defensive side still decisively dominating in terms of xG despite the lower number of shots and much lower possession numbers.

Edited January 29 by Ein

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Because I've won games using mid blocks on balanced/cautious mentality. And lost to teams that sit back while i'm pressing. Counter attacking could be a bit more direct at times but it's not some impossible task.

You need to have the right players performing the right roles just like in real life. There's a reason why so many teams press. There's a shortage of press resistant players. Pressing players with low composure will result in more poor decisions which result in mistakes and goals. Sounds like you're ignoring a key attribute for escaping a press and getting punished.

Have a read in the tactics forum:

 

So have I.

Last year, trying to play gegenpress vs superior teams, would not work well and you would get found out. This year, it's a complete cakewalk.

Also last year, I came 2nd GAE first season no transfers, using positive, balanced, cautious, defensive, and v defensive mentalities using all throughout the course of the season and thoughout indidividual games. This year, all you need to do is gegenpress without doing any changes and you can massively overachieve, way more than last year playing the same overly aggressive way with a high line.

That's why everyone this year is finding the game 100 times easier than last year.

[alian62]

1 hour ago, g1nh0 said:

So have I.

Last year, trying to play gegenpress vs superior teams, would not work well and you would get found out. This year, it's a complete cakewalk.

Also last year, I came 2nd GAE first season no transfers, using positive, balanced, cautious, defensive, and v defensive mentalities using all throughout the course of the season and thoughout indidividual games. This year, all you need to do is gegenpress without doing any changes and you can massively overachieve, way more than last year playing the same overly aggressive way with a high line.

That's why everyone this year is finding the game 100 times easier than last year.

Everyone ? You can easily make the game harder but people choose to take the easy path.  

[g1nh0]

7 minutes ago, alian62 said:

Everyone ? You can easily make the game harder but people choose to take the easy path.  

You shouldn't need to avoid certain tactical styles or avoid using certain player roles to make the game harder.

[alian62]

56 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

You shouldn't need to avoid certain tactical styles or avoid using certain player roles to make the game harder.

Never said you did 

[Litmanen 10]

I think that in bigger picture one of the main problems with the current match engine is how attacking style of plays pan out. I've seen plenty of YouTubers using very top heavy systems and overachieving with those. Sure, they usually concede a lot but still there is more benefit than loss with these kind of style of plays as they score so many goals. 

If you compare this to real-life, going to an away game against Real Madrid, Manchester City, Liverpool, Bayern etc. should be a suicide with this kind of style of play and even smaller sides should be able to hit you more than you are able to score if you are overly attacking. Otherwise for example Villas Boas' Chelsea career would have been a whole different story than it was. 

[Rodrigogc]

2 horas atrás, Litmanen 10 disse:

I think that in bigger picture one of the main problems with the current match engine is how attacking style of plays pan out. I've seen plenty of YouTubers using very top heavy systems and overachieving with those. Sure, they usually concede a lot but still there is more benefit than loss with these kind of style of plays as they score so many goals. 

If you compare this to real-life, going to an away game against Real Madrid, Manchester City, Liverpool, Bayern etc. should be a suicide with this kind of style of play and even smaller sides should be able to hit you more than you are able to score if you are overly attacking. Otherwise for example Villas Boas' Chelsea career would have been a whole different story than it was. 

 

That is the whole point about the imbalance. I mean, I play football occasionally, attacking is way harder than defending, why is it different in the game ? Has any of the people in SI staff ever played football ? It is pretty simple, to attack you need technique, flair, composure, decision making, familiarity with the other players ... on the final third, as say Guardiola, you need the most technical and unpredictable players, because the manager can only get the players around the opponent's area, but if they can't create for themselves, there is nothing the manager can do. IRL we often see struggling teams stuffing their own penalty area with players to defend against big teams, and it is really hard to break these systems, see how hard Spain tried to break Morocco's defense in the WC but they lacked dribbling and unpredictable players, all they could do is pass the ball around without creating any chances. In FM they would have found an easy cross and goal.

There is a reason why less technical players usually become defensive players, and the reason is that defending is easier than attacking, simple as that. You just need good physical condition and concentration. The highest paid footballers in the world are those who attack and score goals and provide assists, because it is not easy to break a defense in football. A football match these days lasts more than 100 minutes. We often see many goals, but we also often see 0-0 matches, 1-0... The last team in the league table can simply stuff 10 players around the penalty area and it will not be easy for a real madrid to break it, but probably they will since they have players like Vinicius Junior who has the flair to break compact defenses, but players like that are hard to find, that's why he is in Real Madrid. In FM you find a winger with good physicals and he will rule the league. I play Fulham, Adama Traore is unstoppable here. Too easy.

You defend in FM and you are dead, even though it is way easier to find players with good physical and mentals to defend than it is to find technical players to attack. Isn't it a contradiction ?

Edited January 30 by Rodrigogc

[dunk105]

IMO FM24 is the best so far.

As a dominant team I find it far less frustrating trying to break down low blocks, mainly due to this no longer resulting in spammed crosses no matter what your setup was.

Conversely I can effectively play a low block myself and win tough away games on the counter. One thing that really  turned this for me was realising that playing with a low block doesnt mean you drop off, in fact you want your players to press as this is key in getting counters going.

[dunk105]

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

 

That is the whole point about the imbalance. I mean, I play football occasionally, attacking is way harder than defending, why is it different in the game ? Has any of the people in SI staff ever played football ? It is pretty simple, to attack you need technique, flair, composure, decision making, familiarity with the other players ... on the final third, as say Guardiola, you need the most technical and unpredictable players, because the manager can only get the players around the opponent's area, but if they can't create for themselves, there is nothing the manager can do. IRL we often see struggling teams stuffing their own penalty area with players to defend against big teams, and it is really hard to break these systems, see how hard Spain tried to break Morocco's defense in the WC but they lacked dribbling and unpredictable players, all they could do is pass the ball around without creating any chances. In FM they would have found an easy cross and goal.

There is a reason why less technical players usually become defensive players, and the reason is that defending is easier than attacking, simple as that. You just need good physical condition and concentration. The highest paid footballers in the world are those who attack and score goals and provide assists, because it is not easy to break a defense in football. A football match these days lasts more than 100 minutes. We often see many goals, but we also often see 0-0 matches, 1-0... The last team in the league table can simply stuff 10 players around the penalty area and it will not be easy for a real madrid to break it, but probably they will since they have players like Vinicius Junior who has the flair to break compact defenses, but players like that are hard to find, that's why he is in Real Madrid. In FM you find a winger with good physicals and he will rule the league. I play Fulham, Adama Traore is unstoppable here. Too easy.

You defend in FM and you are dead, even though it is way easier to find players with good physical and mentals to defend than it is to find technical players to attack. Isn't it a contradiction ?

Depends on your defensive setup.

If you play defensively and don't have a plan for the counter then of course eventually the AI will get through as there is no relief from the pressure, but if (as mentioned above) you press effectively from a low compact block then you will counter effectively.

Reading around and watching various videos had me realising that high pressing intensity doesn't just go with a high line and high press has got me FMing the AI.

A 433 low block with much higher pressing and drop off, focus on both wings, 2 WB/S, DLP/S, 2 MEZ/S, 2 IF/A and a PF utterly destroys elite AI teams away from home, particularly ones playing 4231 or 3ATB. The plan here being that we regroup, but press deep then my DLP has a 4 wide runners to find on the counter, instantly overloading either wing and then 5 players (opposite wingback, opposite IF, 2 Mezzalas, PF) arriving in and around the area for the cross / pullback.