Defence-First Football Tactics (UPDATED Feb 20, 2024).

[poma]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Tribulations and Joys of Basque Club Management - Developing my Defence-First 4-4-1-1 Tactic 

I gotta say that trying to implement a strict Basque-only policy at Real Sociedad has been nothing if not a challenge. Part of that probably had to do with the fact that from the start of the game the club has not really been planned in this way. At the start of my save in 2023, some of the key players, such as primary striker and most wide players, were not Basque. So it took me nearly 5 seasons to find/develop suitable Basque replacements. All while trying to settle on the best possible "Defence-First" tactic for my collection of local stars. And in 2027 year in-game I'm starting to think that we have made some progress in both areas. I really like the balanced tactics that I am seeing on the pitch, and I like my Basque players even more. Especially the newgens! 

Although I have to say it hurt alot to have to pass on this beautiful newgen. Trully a reincarnation of Courtois! Particularly when I could have had him for under 3 million. But alas he is not Basque 

As a consolation prize (and mostly to make myself feel better) I ended up buying this young keeper from Pamplona (so far they have been my best source of young Basque newgens in case you were wondering).

Inigo does not have quite as good current ability (CA) as Hoyenhall but looks like his long-term potential might be much better. And most importantly he is very determined to improve. Determination still makes a big difference in how well (and fast) a youngster can reach his full potential. Therefore, I cannot wait to see what Inigo's profile will look like in another two years of getting 2nd Division playing experience with our B Team. 

So far, despite a few temptations and close calls, I am sticking to my guns and and focusing on Basque players. And honestly I have been lucky in more ways than one in getting some exceptional youth players in such a short time with the club. But more on that later. The only exception to the rule would be any non-Basques coming through my own "Cantera" academy. 

 

Defending as 4-4-1-1, Attacking as 4-2-3-1

The tactical objective still remains the same. To create an effective fluid 4-4-2 tactic that is more focused on passing the ball around and attacking through intelligent movement. NOT through stifling the opponent via incessant high pressing or booting the ball long to the attackers. Neither are we after a possession-heavy Tiki-Taka approach. Instead I'm looking for a more nuanced formation that uses 4-4-2 as a basis for defence but then attacks in a different shape (4-2-3-1) that is more conductive to maintaining ball control, creating overloads and following it up with fast attacking transitions. I'm hoping that this attacking shape can help us to better break down stubborn defensive sides (which I have been facing more and more due to increasing club reputation). Such hybrid formation is meant to fit with the strengths of Real Sociedad squad. At the start of the game it is not a very physical squad. And 4 years later it's still very much the case. On the other hand, we are lucky to possess some very clinical attackers (and some fast ones) as well as some very technical and mentally-strong midfielders. Even then, we won't be breaking down opposition with pure Pace and Strength but with Teamwork, hard Work and precise Technique and Passing. We might have less chances than the typical "balls-to-the-wall" Gegenpress side but we are sure to make the best of the ones we do have. It's all part of my Pragmatic "Defence-First" approach to FM - clinical precision and solid defence over brute force aggressive attack.  

So definitely it takes a special sort of tactic to suit this kind of style. It took quite a bit of tactical tweaking and watching many matches almost in full to arrive at the tactic you see now. Although I really wouldn't recommend tweaking tactics too much during the season. But I am a tactical tinkerer through and through and always enjoy that aspect of the game the most. Even if it causes a bad drop in form during the middle of the season (which almost cost me my job last season had we not qualified for Champions League due to a late surge in form and thanks to an earlier version of the following tactic). So without further ado, meet my current iteration of 4-4-1-1.

 

 

1. Advanced Forward - in a more direct fast-transition/counter tactic, you cannot go wrong with a "spearhead" role like AF. And I especially love the more technical spearheads. A player that can stay high up and run off the shoulder of opposition defenders. But not quite in the one-dimensional Poacher fashion. If you are lucky to get a more creative technical player as your Advance Forward then this role can really come into its own. 

Chechu is turning into a tremendous player for Real Sociedad and with loads more untapped potential. Hard to believe that I only bought him for measly 750 000 euros from Gijon. Because of his attributes I give him individual instruction to "dribble more" and "take more risks". 

 

2. Winger is another key role in my tactic. Here I like to slot my other little lethal attacker in the making and current crown jewel in this Basque squad. The main requirements for this role are tons of speed and good attacking instincts. Although technical skills like Crossing and Dribbling help out too, especially if you intend to play same-side-foot player here. I instruct the role to cut inside so if you slot a player with the opposite dominant foot to the side, it's probably even better. The intention is for the role to initially stretch the play on that side and create nice overload with the fullback but then in the final third to cut inside and finish off any chances not taken by our striker.

Despite his tender age Cristian Villanueva is starting to look like a one of the best young graduates of Real Sociedad's "Cantera". His pacey counter-attacking runs and timely goals is probably what helped me keep my job last season when every point mattered in the tight contest for the last remaining Champions League place. Right now he is unfortunately out for a few weeks with minor injury but I intend to keep him in this side in every game if possible. The only individual instruction is "cut inside" to make his behavior less predictable and to better take advantage of his goal-scoring prowess. Little side note: Those who are interested in doing youth academy saves you probably noticed what I am doing with the nickname  I put "Y25" as short for "Class of 2025 grad". I am bit crazy that way as I like to track how many of my future stars will come from a specific intake. It's little details that like that keep you playing the same save well past the first 4-5 seasons. 

 

3. AMC Position. The club veteran and captain Mikel Oyarzabal is probably the best player for the AMC role. Just a simple generic Advance Midfielder role and for a good reason. I intend it to be an important link-up role between attack and midfield. And for that reason I don't need anything fancy or complicated. Not that it's a simple role to fill. If anything it's one of the demanding specialist roles in this tactic. Besides the obvious technical requirements (he needs both above average passing and finishing ability), mental attributes are key here. While Oyarzabal is a sort of deep/creative striker, he is even more valuable for his good Workrate and Teamwork to drop deeper to pick up the ball and help out the midfield in the press. You cannot afford to have a fancy Trequartista floating around here.  I like the AMA (A) because it starts positioned deeper than any other AMC role (besides the AM on Support) and still be available to launch forward to support counters and generally act like a Shadow Striker given the right individual instruction. And that is exactly why I give Oyarzabal these instructions: "get further forward", "move into channels", "roam from position" and "take more risks". Think of him as my deep-lying Shadow Striker. 

 

4. The other wide midfielder role is arguably the other specialist role in the formation. Wide Midfielder is very important to how this tactic works. In fact, the reason that I went with 4-4-1-1 is because of this role. WM role is one of my all-favourite FM roles and it only exists in flat formation in the midfield strata. I could have went with 4-2-3-1 with an advanced playmaker or even inverted winger (and I even tested that specific iteration of the tactic) but it simply didn't offer the same solid defensive shape, nor the same kind of transition from flat four banks defence to quick transition in attack. Some say that 4-4-1-1 is a poor man's 4-2-3-1. If anything I believe the opposite 4-2-3-1 is a poor interpretation of 4-4-1-1 because while it offers very similar attacking shape (which is very easy to create with 4-4-1-1) it is very hard to create the same solid defensive positioning that a good old 4-4-1-1 offers. Even if you play both wide players on support. This was actually possible back in the FM2014 days but that was because back then we could play Defensive Wingers in AMLR strata. Amazing right!?

Man, I miss those days so much. Sure the tactic creator and the match engine realism got much better over the years but we lost a few things in the process. It still boggles me to this day why we lost this DW role variation since FM14. 

Anyway, going back to FM24 and WM. The kind of player that is perfect here is basically a Roaming Playmaker type or a creative Box-to-Box Midfielder if you will (which is exactly what RPM is if you look at the role under the hood). He needs to be an all-rounder in terms of his physical, mental and technical attributes. When looking for a perfect player you should first ask yourself, would I be comfortable sticking him in my midfield, or would he be a liability there? If he is good enough to play as BBM then he should be good enough to play the WM role. And if he can cross the ball and pass it accurately then you got yourself a great candidate, like my Mendez here.

Mendez possess most of the qualities I look for in a great WM: great Stamina, Workrate, Teamwork, Passing, Off The Ball, Decisions, Composure, Anticipation. And decent Tackling and Positioning as well. As an added bonus he is left-footed playing on the right wing. Meaning that he will naturally tuck in and play narrower. From this position he can combine rather well with both central AM and AF, or form passing triangles with DLP and the right FB. And most importantly, when defending in our flat two banks of four shape, the WM acts as another hardworking midfielder which gives us a numerical advantage when combined with BWM and DLP. The Wide Midfielder role, unlike the more advance wide attacker roles, is more aggressive in following, pressing and tackling opponents.

The only individual instructions I currently use are" "cut inside with the ball" and "sit narrower". I might add others as I see fit. I am especially debating about "get further forward" but I have to watch a few more games this season to see if its really necessary. The beauty of WM(S) role is just how customizable it is. So many individual instructions can be added to make it play just how you want. Or you could choose not to add any at all just allow the player's own attributes and traits to dictate how plays and makes the role his own. 

Final note is that my current best WM is however not destined for much more time with the team. Mendez is not Basque so I will be letting him go when his contract expires next summer (unless a buyer comes knocking before). Luckily I already have the "heir apparent" for the WM role training in our "Jong Real Sociedad" team.

The youngster still has quite a way to go in his long-term development. But hopefully with playing experience in Spain's 2nd Division (our B Team got promoted last season!) he will be closer to prime time in another year or so. 

5. The very important Double Pivot in midfield. No 4-4-1-1 (or 4-2-3-1 for that matter) can function without a solid double pivot. All attacks have to be built on a strong foundation of defence, support and creativity in central midfield. I would say those are the three primary function of all Double Pivots (and in that specific order). My two Central Midfielders need to defend their space well, offer support to the more attacking runners around them and at least one of the two CMs needs to be more creative to add a bit more flair and unpredictability to our midfield whether through the occasional through ball or pin-point pass towards the attackers. I am not exactly looking for the next Pirlo here but a hard-working Paul Scholes will do. DLP is an important element in our pivot because he contributes to the overload on the right flank. Together with the rather creative WM and the charging FB, the DLP is instrumental in attracting the opposition to that side while giving more space for our left Winger and AF to find and exploit on the left flank and centrally. "Overload" concept is something I have been working on since my earliest days playing FM and I feel like its working especially well in this particular 4-4-1-1. Could be the tactic, or maybe the players 

In fact I currently I have two very young candidates for this deep creative role competing in the B Team. The 16 year old model citizen Daniel Sanz:

Or the even younger but very driven 15 year old Gaizka Bilbao, a San Sebastien native and graduate of our own "Cantera" academy just this past summer. Seeing his attribute profile I felt no qualms about throwing him right into 2nd Division in his first season (skipping the u19 team almost entirely). He is just that good! And already showing it in competing against players twice his age. 

There is a good chance that I might be able to play both of them at the same time eventually (once Oyarzabal retires and the primary AMC spot opens up) but that's still quite a few years in the future and who knows how their development will go. That's the joy of youth development in FM24. 

Finally, to finish with the Double Pivot, a quick look at the other important side of it: Ball-Winning Midfielder. The true workhorse of the midfield duo. And who better embody this role than Real Sociedad's ever present Mikel Merino. He is definitely one of our most valuable player (you would not believe how many times I had to slap away those greedy Saudi clubs haha) and I could not ask for a better player for the BWM role. He might not be the best in the class for it but he is the best Basque in this role in 2028 and that is all that matters to me. 

Merino is Aggressive, Brave, Determined, good Teamplayer and an even better Hard Worker with good Stamina and Strength. He is also a very good Passer and above average Tackler. He has above average Jumping Reach. In other words, he fits the role of the ball-winner rather well. And a good pairing with a more creative Deep-Lying Playmaker. Win the ball quickly and pass it on to the more creative players and then join in the counter-attack if possible, "Hold Position" is the only individual instruction I set for this role. 

6. Ball-Playing Defender. I always like to have one in combination with a Sweeper Keeper. Even if I don't specifically instruct my players to "Play the Ball Out of Defence", I like to create a natural link between our keeper and defence. Because naturally the keeper will seek out our BPD (I even instruct him do so just to make sure). Then at the same time our Ball-Playing Defender has the added instruction to "dribble more" to bring the ball further forward towards the midfield. Our primary BPD is more than capable of doing this, even if he is getting a bit older and slower.

It's can be a rather risky strategy sometimes, but it's mostly beneficial because it minimizes on the number of times that we can lose the ball stupidly when the keeper just boots it long up the field to be intercepted by opposition midfielders. When we can progress the ball quickly via more technical and less direct route to our DLP there is a much better chance that we can hold on to it longer and actually do something dangerous with it.

 

7. Finally not much to say about the tactical instructions. I already mentioned all the individual instructions. The general team instructions I usually try to keep as minimal as needed to get my general tactical style across. So in this case I tried to included only the ones which would actually aid us in absorbing the opposition pressure during defending phase and to then transition fast into attacking phase. Most of this is conveyed through our choice of Team Mentality (Positive) and roles and duties (which I already mostly discussed). Furthermore, if you really like how this tactic looks then be sure to stay tuned for further updates coming to this thread. Or maybe if you just like to see more pics of newgens from our Real Sociedad's Cantera! I know you like those   And below this is the tactic download for those who want to test out the tactic. Word of caution: it is not meant to be a plug-and-win tactic as I really created it with my specific players in mind. But if you think your team has similar players to fit the roles then by all mean be my guest. And be sure to report back on your experience. Happy managing!  

 

TACTIC: DefenceFirst4-4-1-1.fmf

 

Job well done sir!

But the tactic shared is slightly different right?

[Duracellio]

15 horas atrás, RDF Tactics disse:

So this post has been a major influence in the tactic I'm creating next. As someone who prefers the more aggressive off-the-ball systems, I made it a mission a have something more reserved (not completely defensive).

I first created a 4-4-1-1 but my team often created weird off-the-ball shapes. As can see in the image below, my RM (Pipa) is in their LWBs world. We sort of know why this happens, least against a 3 atb formation. But this in turn, even against back 4 systems, made our tackle % really bad. Despite being top, dominating games, fewest conceded and few shots against, I just could not ignore this when watching. Talking about winning in the way you set out to, this was just a big bug of mine.

After reading this post when initially creating the tactic, I was also reading some IRL analysis of mid blocks in a 442/4411 and really wanted this narrow 442 shape that guides play nicely out wide. In a unit and shifting across as a team. My guiding play into wider areas whilst keeping the central compact and narrow is what I badly wanted as well as my rest attack idea.

After trying out many different roles and instructions to eliminate this, it just wouldn't happen. I had a theory that the switch I had to make was making a narrow formation so I have switched to a 4-2-2-2 and things are looking a LOT better. We finally have that defensive shape I was looking for. Now we have someone that resembles more of the compact 442. With team shifting across as we guide play out wide.

We now have the highest tackles won ratio in the league! Our OPPDA is top as well (which isn't exactly measure high press in FM). Including a lovely 11-0

 

I do like that aspect of meticulously watching your defensive patterns. Initially, I started with an Anchor over BWM as well as no counter-press but had counter on. After a few games, I felt the Anchor was actually quite determinantal (in this system, not generally) as he would stay in his position not looking to create space in front of our defence - but it also meant he didn't shift over as well as the BWM which was important in gaining possession. Creating that numerical advantage out in wider areas. But counter-press has also been helpful in this system, especially if we lose possession in the central areas where we're looking to play *for now*. We couldn't regroup into our positions quickly or well enough as their in advanced positions (I guess). Still not sure whether get stuck in or not. So currently using it in away games as I feel we're a bit drop off'ish.

 

Sorry for the large screenshots and message but was just sharing as the post initially inspired creating this system

Cheers for the share, sounds really interesting

Let me see if I got your post right first, so I can develop more about it.

You were trying to create a realistic way of defending on a 442/4411, which consists in keeping the two blocks of 4 compact either between them and also compact on the field, convering center areas. Having the winger playing an important rule when the opponent shifts the game from one side to the other, since he has to be convering the far center side, instead of just huging the line, Is that it?

 

[RDF Tactics]

13 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

Cheers for the share, sounds really interesting

Let me see if I got your post right first, so I can develop more about it.

You were trying to create a realistic way of defending on a 442/4411, which consists in keeping the two blocks of 4 compact either between them and also compact on the field, convering center areas. Having the winger playing an important rule when the opponent shifts the game from one side to the other, since he has to be convering the far center side, instead of just huging the line, Is that it?

 

exactly that. We did manage to get confirmation that especially against a back 3, your winger will look to mark the opposition wing-back. So regardless of me trying to be narrow etc, my winger will always mark the wing-back.

So this might actually be help for people creating a defensive tactic here. Can see against Napoli who playing a back 3, my two wingers are so wide marking their wing-backs. So we can't be narrow and compact to force play wide as my wingers are already wide so Napoli will look to play through the middle instead which I want the opposite

 

Others may have a solution against a back 4, but even against a back 4, my wingers we're never narrow soon enough. It got to a point I was tweaking so much that I was removing stuff that I did like just to be able to achieve a very narrow two-banks of 4 block. Against Fiorentina, my RB and RM are doubling up on their winger when it's exactly who we want them to play it to so we can trap them. But, we can't trap them wide when we're defending in that area. MY RB and RM should be closer to their RCB and RCM - then once the ball is played to the winger, that would be our trigger to press.

This has left a huge space in my right channels. Both though the RM and RCM and the RB and RCB.

In this image as well, we're covering the whole width of the pitch when we're supposed to be narrow

Of course, these things were repeated time and time rather than just being a moment of concentration loss. The 4222 box gives me also various defensive shapes, depending on the situation. When opposition build from the goalkeeper, it's a 4-2-2-2 which naturally narrow and forces wide. As we start to drop, we start falling into a 4-4-2

[Duracellio]

9 minutos atrás, RDF Tactics disse:

exactly that. We did manage to get confirmation that especially against a back 3, your winger will look to mark the opposition wing-back. So regardless of me trying to be narrow etc, my winger will always mark the wing-back.

So this might actually be help for people creating a defensive tactic here. Can see against Napoli who playing a back 3, my two wingers are so wide marking their wing-backs. So we can't be narrow and compact to force play wide as my wingers are already wide so Napoli will look to play through the middle instead which I want the opposite

 

Others may have a solution against a back 4, but even against a back 4, my wingers we're never narrow soon enough. It got to a point I was tweaking so much that I was removing stuff that I did like just to be able to achieve a very narrow two-banks of 4 block. Against Fiorentina, my RB and RM are doubling up on their winger when it's exactly who we want them to play it to so we can trap them. But, we can't trap them wide when we're defending in that area. MY RB and RM should be closer to their RCB and RCM - then once the ball is played to the winger, that would be our trigger to press.

This has left a huge space in my right channels. Both though the RM and RCM and the RB and RCB.

In this image as well, we're covering the whole width of the pitch when we're supposed to be narrow

Of course, these things were repeated time and time rather than just being a moment of concentration loss. The 4222 box gives me also various defensive shapes, depending on the situation. When opposition build from the goalkeeper, it's a 4-2-2-2 which naturally narrow and forces wide. As we start to drop, we start falling into a 4-4-2

Got it!

This post just called my attention because I found myself in the same very predicament when using a 442 (aside the poor defensive performance that the 2 strikers provide, defensively, but we'll come to that). 

I got to a point, and here I just see myself in your "frustration", that It wasn't about winning anymore, I just wanted to see "real" defensive positional football. So I can relate really well to this post.

I find your solution to populate the center of the pitch more like a last resort, if you allow me to say. By abandoning the 2 wide players, for the sake of defending narrow, you'll loose what the wide players gave you in this system, on the attack. I get it though, in the end you loose some to win some.

Has I imagine you've been playing a lot with this 4222 narrow. So how do you see your 2 AM's defending? Don't they neglect the pressure on FB's at times? Specially when those FB are really offensive. I noticed that sometimes they just let the opponent FB go all the way down the line because it wasn't they're natural area to defend/press or mark, they can only press or mark so far so they didn't really cover much the wide areas outside the box?  Do you usually see this behavior?

I'll share my temporary solution to this (as I'm still not 100% happy with it). The DW gave that balance between attacking down the flanks and defend really narrow! I don't know if you have tried it in your tests but it really works as i've just wrote. They tend to be way more offensive than one would have thought (as the name is literally "defensive" wingers) and when it comes to defend, they really narrow the pitch for the opponent. It was really a pleasure to see some realistic football.

Now with that out of the way, my current problem is the way the 2 strikers position themselves when the team is defending, they're just terrible, it's impossible to play with 2 strikers currently. In modern football, when playing in a 442 shape, that defends deep or in a middle block, those 2 strikers defend as CM's, pushing the opponent to wide areas of the pitch. I'm trying an assymetric SS PF/CF, but still not sure about it has I don't have enough of a sample to take conclusions out of it.

[josh.miller92]

45 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

exactly that. We did manage to get confirmation that especially against a back 3, your winger will look to mark the opposition wing-back. So regardless of me trying to be narrow etc, my winger will always mark the wing-back.

So this might actually be help for people creating a defensive tactic here. Can see against Napoli who playing a back 3, my two wingers are so wide marking their wing-backs. So we can't be narrow and compact to force play wide as my wingers are already wide so Napoli will look to play through the middle instead which I want the opposite

 

Others may have a solution against a back 4, but even against a back 4, my wingers we're never narrow soon enough. It got to a point I was tweaking so much that I was removing stuff that I did like just to be able to achieve a very narrow two-banks of 4 block. Against Fiorentina, my RB and RM are doubling up on their winger when it's exactly who we want them to play it to so we can trap them. But, we can't trap them wide when we're defending in that area. MY RB and RM should be closer to their RCB and RCM - then once the ball is played to the winger, that would be our trigger to press.

This has left a huge space in my right channels. Both though the RM and RCM and the RB and RCB.

In this image as well, we're covering the whole width of the pitch when we're supposed to be narrow

Of course, these things were repeated time and time rather than just being a moment of concentration loss. The 4222 box gives me also various defensive shapes, depending on the situation. When opposition build from the goalkeeper, it's a 4-2-2-2 which naturally narrow and forces wide. As we start to drop, we start falling into a 4-4-2

Yep this has always frustrated me immensely! Positionally this 4-2-2-2 looks okay, practically did it work on the defensive side ?

[RDF Tactics]

23 minutes ago, josh.miller92 said:

Yep this has always frustrated me immensely! Positionally this 4-2-2-2 looks okay, practically did it work on the defensive side ?

As with most of my tactics, the defensive side can be improved by what we do with the ball. I really like the set up if I'm honest, but it does require PACE up front and players than can keep the ball in central areas.

This is how we created majority of our chances. Lots of central play which 99% of the times leaves the full-back completely free. He goes forward, drive, cross and thats a way to create chances.

What does happen from time to time is being caught. Sometimes that Tielemans pass is cut out and straight away, our attacking 4 are out of the game. Because I'm using Positive mentality now, both my AMs have Very Attacking mentalities so they can be caught too high (the plan is always to keep the front two strikers high - they are my rest attack).

Ramsey is in a good position after linking up, Buendia is very high. Dropping mentality to balance still made the AMs have an Attacking mentality so just thought, may as well keep it on control as balanced didn't noticeably drop my AMs. Once against a top side away, I will try cautious. I have played Tottenham away, lost 1-0 but we were actually comfortable the majority of the game with a balanced mentality.

*edit - cautious drops them down to positive so it could actually be more detrimental with everyone else's mentality so low but attacking 4 is still positive and attacking so don't think I'll try Cautious*

 

Edited February 20 by RDF Tactics

[josh.miller92]

12 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

As with most of my tactics, the defensive side can be improved by what we do with the ball. I really like the set up if I'm honest, but it does require PACE up front and players than can keep the ball in central areas.

This is how we created majority of our chances. Lots of central play which 99% of the times leaves the full-back completely free. He goes forward, drive, cross and thats a way to create chances.

What does happen from time to time is being caught. Sometimes that Tielemans pass is cut out and straight away, our attacking 4 are out of the game. Because I'm using Positive mentality now, both my AMs have Very Attacking mentalities so they can be caught too high (the plan is always to keep the front two strikers high - they are my rest attack).

Ramsey is in a good position after linking up, Buendia is very high. Dropping mentality to balance still made the AMs have an Attacking mentality so just thought, may as well keep it on control as balanced didn't noticeably drop my AMs. Once against a top side away, I will try cautious. I have played Tottenham away, lost 1-0 but we were actually comfortable the majority of the game with a balanced mentality.

*edit - cautious drops them down to positive so it could actually be more detrimental with everyone else's mentality so low but attacking 4 is still positive and attacking so don't think I'll try Cautious*

 

I wonder at this point to defend narrow it’s worth just focusing on a 442 diamond and still push players out wide but then of course you’re moving away from original idea. At least this way your two wider midfielders can be support players and be more involved in the defense than the dual AMs.

[Novem9]

5 часов назад, gabbfx сказал:

where can i download this tactic? its amazing

I didn't share this as separate file, and deleted FM21 folder already. I wrote some thougths in this thread, but is absolutely not a plug'n'play tactic.

[RDF Tactics]

7 minutes ago, josh.miller92 said:

I wonder at this point to defend narrow it’s worth just focusing on a 442 diamond and still push players out wide but then of course you’re moving away from original idea. At least this way your two wider midfielders can be support players and be more involved in the defense than the dual AMs.

I do believe it's an instruction for your attackers rather than your whole team (or those at the start of your line engagement).

Force-wide worked for my strikers. They curve and bend their runs when engaging the CBs and that forces the CB wide. But that's where it breaks down because your 2nd line of pressure isn't looking to force wide. So, force wide seems like an instruction for your attackers and stop cross/allow cross is for your defending wide players but neither gets your team as one to position themselves either narrow or wide whichever you choose.

But yeah, at least this way I don't need an instruction and it happens naturally because of our shape. Then, with more often pressing, once the ball is wide our AMs go out wide.

Here, Ramsey (my LM) is doing exactly what I wanted my LMs to do in the 4411. Be narrow and inside, really forcing that pass wide. Zabaryni passes it to the winger and then all of a sudden, we create a numercal advantage when defending. You can say 3v1. My LB, my LM and the touchline.

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, poma said:

Job well done sir!

But the tactic shared is slightly different right?

Thank you sir How different? Different from the one I discussed in Valverde update? That's true. It is 4-4-1-1 afterall Or did you mean different from the screenshot I posted in this latest update?

Edited February 20 by crusadertsar

[poma]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thank you sir How different? Different from the one I discussed in Valverde update? That's true. It is 4-4-1-1 afterall Or did you mean different from the screenshot I posted in this latest update?

I meant some P'is in the text

[Duracellio]

@RDF Tactics In your tests, before you get to those 2 AM's combo, did you tried the defensive winger?

How does your AM's track back with the opponents FB?

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@crusadertsarI'm a bit confused, is this an update to the 4231 Athletic by Valverde? It looks like a 180º turn from what you hadI was excited about that build you had...you were onto something

Edited February 20 by Duracellio

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

@RDF Tactics In your tests, before you get to those 2 AM's combo, did you tried the defensive winger?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@crusadertsarI'm a bit confused, is this an update to the 4231 Athletic by Valverde? It looks like a 180º turn from what you hadI was excited about that build you had...you were onto something

Well I wouldn't say 180 turn. Did you even read the update? It plays the same as 4-2-3-1 in attacking phase due to mentalities and roles. But has the added benefit of a more solid defensive shape. That's the point of this thread afterall 

I experimented with both 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 over the length of the season and gotta say 4-4-1-1 version is way better. For my team at least. It leaks less goals and performs way better against elite teams in Champions League. 4-2-3-1 almost got me sacked in fact. Why don't yoy try it for yourself? 

Edited February 20 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

For those not sure where the new change of shape came from should check out my other thread 

 

We got a really great discussion going there about the defensive and attacking advantages of solid "two banks of four" formation. You could even view my 4-4-1-1 with Real Sociedad as heavily inspired by Liverpool tactics from 1980s. Especially if you view the role of Dalglish as more of an Advanced Midfielder. 

Edited February 20 by crusadertsar

[Duracellio]

2 minutos atrás, crusadertsar disse:

Well I wouldn't say 180 turn. Did you even read the update? It plays the same as 4-2-3-1 in attacking phase due to mentalities and roles. But has the added benefit of a more solid defensive shape. That's the point of this thread afterall 

I experimented with both 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 over the length of the season and gotta say 4-4-1-1 version is way better. It leaks less goals and performs way better against elite teams in Champions League. 4-2-3-1 almost got me sacked in fact. Why don't yoy try it for yourself? 

Of course I did, and it was a pleasant reading as always, congrats. How do you find the DLP playing the same in attacking  phase as an SV?

That's exactly why I was so curious about that build because I never found a way to make it work properly defensively and maybe you could've found something diferent but I guess you ended up with the same conclusion as I did.

I know that's the point of the thread and that's why I enjoy it so much

Don't get me wrong, I'm just gathering information since you're testing things out and since I trust your judgment on how things work in the game and translates from the real football from everything that I've been reading from you.

I try to learn as much as I can from everyone and yet still testing things on my own, of course. I think the perfect balance is somewhere in the middle.

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Duracellio said:

Of course I did, and it was a pleasant reading as always, congrats. How do you find the DLP playing the same in attacking  phase as an SV?

That's exactly why I was so curious about that build because I never found a way to make it work properly defensively and maybe you could've found something diferent but I guess you ended up with the same conclusion as I did.

I know that's the point of the thread and that's why I enjoy it so much

Don't get me wrong, I'm just gathering information since you're testing things out and since I trust your judgment on how things work in the game and translates from the real football from everything that I've been reading from you.

I try to learn as much as I can from everyone and yet still testing things on my own, of course. I think the perfect balance is somewhere in the middle.

Haha, I like SV a lot but I needed a solid double pivot in midfield and SV wouldn't do that for me, especially with new changes to it's behavior in FM24. With the BWM and DLP I get what I am looking for. The tactic is far from perfect. Still tweaking it. As a matter of fact I'm wondering whether I might need to change WM to attack duty or maybe add "get further forward" instruction. To better achieve 4-2-3-1 in attack.

[Duracellio]

1 hora atrás, crusadertsar disse:

Haha, I like SV a lot but I needed a solid double pivot in midfield and SV wouldn't do that for me, especially with new changes to it's behavior in FM24. With the BWM and DLP I get what I am looking for. The tactic is far from perfect. Still tweaking it. As a matter of fact I'm wondering whether I might need to change WM to attack duty or maybe add "get further forward" instruction. To better achieve 4-2-3-1 in attack.

That's why I said 180º (probably not the best expression, as some fundammentals still translates to the new system) because in the attacking phase it turns out to be quite diferent from the later one, specially because the role of that DLP playing completely diferent in this shape, when compared to the SV.

Overall I agree with you, in 4231/4411 structure, you have an AM(A) and one of your FB bombing forward, so you will always need those two midfielders to be more of a pendulum, that supports every run and movement on the attack (FB(a) and sometimes the FB on support aswell, the 2 wingers, the AM and the CF) and you can't afford one of those two CM's to be a SV bombing forward aswell (you can in some desperate situations, but that's a diferent discussion).

I'm kind of "obssessed" with transitions as I tend to find them a fundamental part of every game when I look to "modern" football. Regardless of what style you want to play or which fundamentals your team have, more than ever, they play a huge part in every game, and with all the science and data involved in the sport, it's the little details that actually translates to a 1-0 winner sometimes and that's exactly what a "defence first football tactics" means, transitions, transitions and more transitions.

 

A couple of weeks earlier, when you tested a 4231, you played Brais Mendez as a DW. Eventually you end up tweaking him and now he's playing as a WM.

Which diferences do you see from a DW to a WM? For me the DW position himself narrower when the team is defending, but he hugs the line and is way more one-dimensional when he's attacking, while the WM defends wider but like to roam a bit more in the middle of the pitch while the team is attacking. Is this correct or am I missing something here?

Edited February 20 by Duracellio

[crusadertsar]

34 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

That's why I said 180º (probably not the best expression, as some fundammentals still translates to the new system) because in the attacking phase it turns out to be quite diferent from the later one, specially because the role of that DLP playing completely diferent in this shape, when compared to the SV.

Overall I agree with you, in 4231/4411 structure, you have an AM(A) and one of your FB bombing forward, so you will always need those two midfielders to be more of a pendulum, that supports every run and movement on the attack (FB(a) and sometimes the FB on support aswell, the 2 wingers, the AM and the CF) and you can't afford one of those two CM's to be a SV bombing forward aswell (you can in some desperate situations, but that's a diferent discussion).

I'm kind of "obssessed" with transitions as I tend to find them a fundamental part of every game when I look to "modern" football. Regardless of what style you want to play or which fundamentals your team have, more than ever, they play a huge part in every game, and with all the science and data involved in the sport, it's the little details that actually translates to a 1-0 winner sometimes and that's exactly what a "defence first football tactics" means, transitions, transitions and more transitions.

 

A couple of weeks earlier, when you tested a 4231, you played Brais Mendez as a DW. Eventually you end up tweaking him and now he's playing as a WM.

Which diferences do you see from a DW to a WM? For me the DW position himself narrower when the team is defending, but he hugs the line and is way more one-dimensional when he's attacking, while the WM defends wider but like to roam a bit more in the middle of the pitch while the team is attacking. Is this correct or am I missing something here?

Regarding the WM, the narrower positioning and roaming is exactly why I love the role and prefer it over DW. I need him to play as a sort of wide box to box midfielder with more liberty to go forward and support th AM in the middle. And that's exactly what Mendez does for me. He alone adds so much much to the system, I am kind of worried what will happen when I lose him next summer as his contract will expire. But luckily I acquired Aimar on relatively cheap (for 30 million when Pamplona got relegated last season). He is even more technical than Mendez. But unfortunately his Work Rate is not quite as good.

[Duracellio]

20 minutos atrás, crusadertsar disse:

Regarding the WM, the narrower positioning and roaming is exactly why I love the role and prefer it over DW. I need him to play as a sort of wide box to box midfielder with more liberty to go forward and support th AM in the middle. And that's exactly what Mendez does for me. He alone adds so much much to the system, I am kind of worried what will happen when I lose him next summer as his contract will expire. But luckily I acquired Aimar on relatively cheap (for 30 million when Pamplona got relegated last season). He is even more technical than Mendez. But unfortunately his Work Rate is not quite as good.

Yes I know, from your update you made it clear during the attacking phase, but what about the defensive phase, how does he behave? Does he stay constantly wide? And what about the AM on attack on a positive mentality? Does he support the midfield when you're out of possession?

Edited February 20 by Duracellio

[Cloud9]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

In fact I currently I have two very young candidates for this deep creative role competing in the B Team. The 16 year old model citizen Daniel Sanz:

What a find! Model Citizen, Evasive and Consistent at 16? I'll take one of those as well please 

Edited February 20 by Cloud9

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Duracellio said:

Yes I know, from your update you made it clear during the attacking phase, but what about the defensive phase, how does he behave? Does he stay constantly wide? And what about the AM on attack on a positive mentality? Does he support the midfield when you're out of possession?

That's one of the reasons I instruct Mendez to stay narrower, for his defensive positioning. At the same time as a WM he is more likely to cover the flank. Especially with "close down more" instruction active. Think of WM role as a wider BBM role. Adding "roam from position" instruction might also be a good idea.

Regarding the AMC, I am comfortable playing him on Attack duty just because it's Oyarzabal due to his high Workrate. He works his socks off in every single game. If it was any other player then I would probably switch to Support duty with more aggressive individual instructions to get forward when in possession. 

@Cloud9 I know right! He is a tremendous player  I take it "evasive" is a good thing? Nice!

Edited February 20 by crusadertsar

[Cloud9]

28 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That's one of the reasons I instruct Mendez to stay narrower, for his defensive positioning. At the same time as a WM he is more likely to cover the flank. Especially with "close down more" instruction active. Think of WM role as a wider BBM role. Adding "roam from position" instruction might also be a good idea.

Regarding the AMC, I am comfortable playing him on Attack duty just because it's Oyarzabal due to his high Workrate. He works his arse off in every single game. If it was any other player then I would probably switch to Support duty with more aggressive individual instructions to get forward when in possession. 

@Cloud9 I know right! He is a tremendous player  I take it "evasive" is a good thing? Nice!

Yea, it's fantastic. High Pressure + Professionalism on the player. I rate pressure quite a bit for defensive approaches, especially on player's like a DLP for a pivot. 

Only drawback is it's like being "balanced" for Controversy where it's capped at like 1-14 or so? For me that's a non issue though (especially if they happen to be a living saint like Sanz here). Also I say drawback a bit harshly, it's quite nice to have a trait that guarantees he doesn't have high controversy.

Edited February 20 by Cloud9

[Duracellio]

8 horas atrás, crusadertsar disse:

That's one of the reasons I instruct Mendez to stay narrower, for his defensive positioning. At the same time as a WM he is more likely to cover the flank. Especially with "close down more" instruction active. Think of WM role as a wider BBM role. Adding "roam from position" instruction might also be a good idea.

Regarding the AMC, I am comfortable playing him on Attack duty just because it's Oyarzabal due to his high Workrate. He works his socks off in every single game. If it was any other player then I would probably switch to Support duty with more aggressive individual instructions to get forward when in possession. 

@Cloud9 I know right! He is a tremendous player  I take it "evasive" is a good thing? Nice!

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It all makes more sense now. There's only this thing that confuses me, when you say you tick the option "stay narrower" doesn't that concern only the attacking phase? I mean "when the team have the ball"? Or does that also translates somehow when he is defending? Because if that's the case, it isn't described as so

[crusadertsar]

44 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It all makes more sense now. There's only this thing that confuses me, when you say you tick the option "stay narrower" doesn't that concern only the attacking phase? I mean "when the team have the ball"? Or does that also translates somehow when he is defending? Because if that's the case, it isn't described as so

It seems to affect the defensive positioning too by bringing him closer to DLP when we are out of possession. Anyway thats what I noticed in watching the games on full. It could be just that he doesn't get back into wider position as fast  after going inside. Sort of lingering there. If I have time I might try to show some examples from screenshots. 

Edited February 21 by crusadertsar

[Guest]

On 19/02/2024 at 08:29, RDF Tactics said:

So this post has been a major influence in the tactic I'm creating next. As someone who prefers the more aggressive off-the-ball systems, I made it a mission a have something more reserved (not completely defensive).

I first created a 4-4-1-1 but my team often created weird off-the-ball shapes. As can see in the image below, my RM (Pipa) is in their LWBs world. We sort of know why this happens, least against a 3 atb formation. But this in turn, even against back 4 systems, made our tackle % really bad. Despite being top, dominating games, fewest conceded and few shots against, I just could not ignore this when watching. Talking about winning in the way you set out to, this was just a big bug of mine.

After reading this post when initially creating the tactic, I was also reading some IRL analysis of mid blocks in a 442/4411 and really wanted this narrow 442 shape that guides play nicely out wide. In a unit and shifting across as a team. My guiding play into wider areas whilst keeping the central compact and narrow is what I badly wanted as well as my rest attack idea.

After trying out many different roles and instructions to eliminate this, it just wouldn't happen. I had a theory that the switch I had to make was making a narrow formation so I have switched to a 4-2-2-2 and things are looking a LOT better. We finally have that defensive shape I was looking for. Now we have someone that resembles more of the compact 442. With team shifting across as we guide play out wide.

We now have the highest tackles won ratio in the league! Our OPPDA is top as well (which isn't exactly measure high press in FM). Including a lovely 11-0

 

I do like that aspect of meticulously watching your defensive patterns. Initially, I started with an Anchor over BWM as well as no counter-press but had counter on. After a few games, I felt the Anchor was actually quite determinantal (in this system, not generally) as he would stay in his position not looking to create space in front of our defence - but it also meant he didn't shift over as well as the BWM which was important in gaining possession. Creating that numerical advantage out in wider areas. But counter-press has also been helpful in this system, especially if we lose possession in the central areas where we're looking to play *for now*. We couldn't regroup into our positions quickly or well enough as their in advanced positions (I guess). Still not sure whether get stuck in or not. So currently using it in away games as I feel we're a bit drop off'ish.

 

Sorry for the large screenshots and message but was just sharing as the post initially inspired creating this system

What skin are you using there? The little feet for the preferred foot look interesting lol.

[LUFCspeni]

I really enjoyed reading through this thread, kudos @crusadertsar! I've always been obsessed about the importance of defence in every sport I follow, not just football. However, when it comes to FM I've always been more interested in the squad building side and just chose some form of high-pressing system. This year though, I find myself frustrated at the amount of unrealistic scores, such as 4-3,  5-2 etc. Indeed, look across the most popular tactics and you will see a lot of teams winning leagues with a league-average defensive record, if not worse. If nothing else, I just want some more realistic scores.

 

Thus, I have downloaded the Defence First 4-4-1-1 to have a play with. The main changes I have found beneficial are enabling low crosses. It makes sense to me, as the striker in this system is not a brute-force type of striker, and low crosses enable the high pace and off the ball to come into play. I have also lowered the midfield pivot into the DM strata, as I found I was conceding goals just in front of the defence, and the CB's were not stepping out to stop the shots. @crusadertsar I may have missed, but what was your reasoning behind having the pivot in the CM strata? 

[crusadertsar]

25 minutes ago, LUFCspeni said:

I really enjoyed reading through this thread, kudos @crusadertsar! I've always been obsessed about the importance of defence in every sport I follow, not just football. However, when it comes to FM I've always been more interested in the squad building side and just chose some form of high-pressing system. This year though, I find myself frustrated at the amount of unrealistic scores, such as 4-3,  5-2 etc. Indeed, look across the most popular tactics and you will see a lot of teams winning leagues with a league-average defensive record, if not worse. If nothing else, I just want some more realistic scores.

 

Thus, I have downloaded the Defence First 4-4-1-1 to have a play with. The main changes I have found beneficial are enabling low crosses. It makes sense to me, as the striker in this system is not a brute-force type of striker, and low crosses enable the high pace and off the ball to come into play. I have also lowered the midfield pivot into the DM strata, as I found I was conceding goals just in front of the defence, and the CB's were not stepping out to stop the shots. @crusadertsar I may have missed, but what was your reasoning behind having the pivot in the CM strata? 

I experimented with both and just found us more effective in breaking up those pesky parked buses when playing with CM pivot. I find myself facing more and more of them now. Dropping them down DM strata would definitely make sense for tougher games against superior opponents.

Regarding the low crosses, I did have it selected in the previous version of the tactic because Chechu is not the tallest guy but is rather fast. But then my main backup Sadiq came back from a loan this season and he is great at jumping so AI thought "mixed" would better benefit both of them.

Edited February 21 by crusadertsar

[kbogusz]

On 18/02/2024 at 14:40, crusadertsar said:

That sounds like a proper challenge  Good luck. And very good testing ground for counter-style system.

I actually didn't think about pitch dimensions but what you are saying is spot on. Long and narrow sounds like it would work better with the tactic.

Well, so far so good as we sit 2nd in the table just after half the season. We were expected to be a middle table team, so I'm very happy with the results. Offensively we are really effective with our counter-attacking football and I don't see any issues right now.

However, we are not the best defensively and having the tactic principles in mind - this is quite underwheling. Not that I worry much as like i said we are exceeding expectations, but you know how it works - I want to constantly progress and try to take my team to the next level. From what I have understood, you have gone from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-1-1 variant because it gave you that desired defensive solidity and probably that could help me too, but right now I don't have right players to switch the formation, besides I think it would be quite irrational looking at our results. So I have decided to stand by the 4-2-3-1 till the end of the season (unless some disaster happens).

Going to the point - we are rarely getting clean sheets, but my biggest disappointment is that we are 18th/20 in OPPDA. I understand that this isn't high-pressing tactic and I can't expect that we will dominate this stat, but still 18th is very low. Secondly - not that much of an issue but we have some pretty low tackles won % and that alone wouldn't worry me that much. BUT the most dissapointing fact is that our main 2 central defenders - Alex Galvez and Raul Navas (ex Sociedad player BTW) whose mental stats are the best of the team and both have a Tackling attribute of 14 (mind you it's only Spain 3rd tier) are effectively letting us down on that stat.

From what I understand, a tackle is "won" when your team effectively regain the possesion, so after the tackle there must be someone from your team to take the ball after the tackle was made. That's why I thought that maybe by pushing the line of the defence even more to "much higher up" while leaving the mid block, we could be more compact and the midfielders could help CBs regaining possesion after their tackles. Secondly, I though that switching from AP(A) to AM(S) with "Get further forward" (like you did in your next variation of the tactic) would help our low OPPDA stat a little bit as the role would demand much more from him in the defence. In fact I feel like AP is not performing that good anyways, so I'm more than curious to change the role to AM.

Do you think these 2 changes are the right direction or is there something else I could try?

Love the thread and your updates.

 

 

[OYTNANAK]

Hey everyone, I am currently on a new save with Everton. My goals of this save are:

- to be solid defensively

- to maximize set pieces by having tall, physical players across the team

- to maximize the newgens produced by my club that reinforce those two points mentioned above.

My question is: which Head of Youth Development should I get to maximize my chance to achieve those three goals (considering their coaching style, personality, etc)?

These are the candidates:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but coaching style or/and playing mentality of the HoYD matters right?

Thanks ahead!

Edit: I'm playing mid block 4-4-1-1 (with 2 CMs and 2 ML/MR).

Edited February 22 by OYTNANAK

[crusadertsar]

21 minutes ago, OYTNANAK said:

Hey everyone, I am currently on a new save with Everton. My goals of this save are:

- to be solid defensively

- to maximize set pieces by having tall, physical players across the team

- to maximize the newgens produced by my club that reinforce those two points mentioned above.

My question is: which Head of Youth Development should I get to maximize my chance to achieve those three goals (considering their coaching style, personality, etc)?

These are the candidates:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but coaching style or/and playing mentality of the HoYD matters right?

Thanks ahead!

Edit: I'm playing mid block 4-4-1-1 (with 2 CMs and 2 ML/MR).

I would get Filippo Galli. His favourite formation is 4-4-2 which is pretty close to 4-4-1-1. Also he is a Model Citizen. It's in my opinion the best personality that you could have for HoYD. Newgens who can inherit this personality are very prized. Finally, his attribute spread is the best out of all the choices you showed 

Edited February 22 by crusadertsar

[OYTNANAK]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

I would get Filippo Galli. His favourite formation is 4-4-2 which is pretty close to 4-4-1-1. Also he is a Model Citizen. It's in my opinion the best personality that you could have for HoYD. Newgens who can inherit this personality is very prized. Finally, his attribute spread is the best out of all the choices you showed 

Thanks for the answer! Filippo Galli was my first pick too. One more question just to confirm it: there is no way to possibly increase the physical aspects of the newgens coming through my intakes through the HoYD, right?

The corner kicks with this team has been very, very effective. I tweaked the attacking corner kicks a little bit to get more men crowding the far post and the result is 4 goals from corner kicks in 6 matches. My Everton side is currently leading in terms of most headers won and most headers won percentage.

It's still very hard to be solid defensively though as I have conceded 9 goals (3 from corner kicks, 1 from penalty kick).

[crusadertsar]

12 minutes ago, OYTNANAK said:

Thanks for the answer! Filippo Galli was my first pick too. One more question just to confirm it: there is no way to possibly increase the physical aspects of the newgens coming through my intakes through the HoYD, right?

The corner kicks with this team has been very, very effective. I tweaked the attacking corner kicks a little bit to get more men crowding the far post and the result is 4 goals from corner kicks in 6 matches. My Everton side is currently leading in terms of most headers won and most headers won percentage.

It's still very hard to be solid defensively though as I have conceded 9 goals (3 from corner kicks, 1 from penalty kick).

Current ability such as physical attributes of newgens is not really controlled by HoYD. For that you would need to increase your Junior Coaching.

[mikcheck]

@crusadertsar could you post match stats from some of your games? Thanks

[crusadertsar]

On 21/02/2024 at 17:02, kbogusz said:

Well, so far so good as we sit 2nd in the table just after half the season. We were expected to be a middle table team, so I'm very happy with the results. Offensively we are really effective with our counter-attacking football and I don't see any issues right now.

However, we are not the best defensively and having the tactic principles in mind - this is quite underwheling. Not that I worry much as like i said we are exceeding expectations, but you know how it works - I want to constantly progress and try to take my team to the next level. From what I have understood, you have gone from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-1-1 variant because it gave you that desired defensive solidity and probably that could help me too, but right now I don't have right players to switch the formation, besides I think it would be quite irrational looking at our results. So I have decided to stand by the 4-2-3-1 till the end of the season (unless some disaster happens).

Going to the point - we are rarely getting clean sheets, but my biggest disappointment is that we are 18th/20 in OPPDA. I understand that this isn't high-pressing tactic and I can't expect that we will dominate this stat, but still 18th is very low. Secondly - not that much of an issue but we have some pretty low tackles won % and that alone wouldn't worry me that much. BUT the most dissapointing fact is that our main 2 central defenders - Alex Galvez and Raul Navas (ex Sociedad player BTW) whose mental stats are the best of the team and both have a Tackling attribute of 14 (mind you it's only Spain 3rd tier) are effectively letting us down on that stat.

From what I understand, a tackle is "won" when your team effectively regain the possesion, so after the tackle there must be someone from your team to take the ball after the tackle was made. That's why I thought that maybe by pushing the line of the defence even more to "much higher up" while leaving the mid block, we could be more compact and the midfielders could help CBs regaining possesion after their tackles. Secondly, I though that switching from AP(A) to AM(S) with "Get further forward" (like you did in your next variation of the tactic) would help our low OPPDA stat a little bit as the role would demand much more from him in the defence. In fact I feel like AP is not performing that good anyways, so I'm more than curious to change the role to AM.

Do you think these 2 changes are the right direction or is there something else I could try?

Love the thread and your updates.

 

 

I think what you are doing makes sense. Compressing the defence is always a good thing in Defence-First systems. Meaning pushing the defensive line while at same time maintaining midblock or even lower line of engagement. At this point just test it out and see how you fare against tougher teams. Also, try to get defenders and midfielders with better mental attributes. If you remember back to the 1st page of this thread, I cannot stress how important those are. Good luck and don't give up! 

@mikcheck I'll try to play some more games and post something this weekend.

Edited February 23 by crusadertsar

[Litmanen 10]

This thread is simply brilliant. Worked as a huge inspiration for my Betis team when I was thinking about how I want to develop my tactical approach for season two. Instead of going with regular 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 DM I went back to my favorite formations from past editions of the game and instantly felt more at home with my tactical approach. 

[kbogusz]

13 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I think what you are doing makes sense. Compressing the defence is always a good thing in Defence-First systems. Meaning pushing the defensive line while at same time maintaining midblock or even lower line of engagement. At this point just test it out and see how you fare against tougher teams. Also, try to get defenders and midfielders with better mental attributes. If you remember back to the 1st page of this thread, I cannot stress how important those are. Good luck and don't give up! 

@mikcheck I'll try to play some more games and post something this weekend.

Thanks, appreciate that you confirm that my thinking is right. I'll try even higher line of defence. I see one risk as my CBs are really slow, but like you said no other way than testing it really! As for the attributes importance - I'm very aware of that and as we are a middle-table team and don't have the best quality, many shortcomings may be due to that fact alone. Managed to get a very good BWM on loan in the winter so hopefully he'll improve our defending.

FInances are looking better and better every month so I expect to strengten the team in the summer and sign some players with right attributes for this style of play. I'm very excited for the future mainly because of this thread. Feel that I am getting better as a manager tactically too.

[crusadertsar]

On 23/02/2024 at 13:50, kbogusz said:

Thanks, appreciate that you confirm that my thinking is right. I'll try even higher line of defence. I see one risk as my CBs are really slow, but like you said no other way than testing it really! As for the attributes importance - I'm very aware of that and as we are a middle-table team and don't have the best quality, many shortcomings may be due to that fact alone. Managed to get a very good BWM on loan in the winter so hopefully he'll improve our defending.

FInances are looking better and better every month so I expect to strengten the team in the summer and sign some players with right attributes for this style of play. I'm very excited for the future mainly because of this thread. Feel that I am getting better as a manager tactically too.

Getting rid of slow defenders is usually the first priority I tackle when I promote a team up. In top divisions with fast, technical attackers nothing will hurt your defense more than slow CBs. Even if you tell your team to play with lower defensive line.

[kbogusz]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Getting rid of slow defenders is usually the first priority I tackle when I promote a team up. In top divisions with fast, technical attackers nothing will hurt your defense more than slow CBs. Even if you tell your team to play with lower defensive line.

Well we made it through the playoffs, but it hardly was an "defence-first football":

Fun fact: we were winning 5-0 after 22 mins in 1st leg...

Anyways, we managed to get promoted. Our wage budget is now 2x higher and we have nearly 1 mil euro in transfer budget. So I'll switch the tactic to 4-4-1-1 now and hopefully build some really good team (with faster CBs) and show some really defensively solid football. We have to, because La Liga 2 is a lot higher level than 3rd tier.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb crusadertsar:

Getting rid of slow defenders is usually the first priority I tackle when I promote a team up. In top divisions with fast, technical attackers nothing will hurt your defense more than slow CBs. Even if you tell your team to play with lower defensive line.

Well I know exactly what you mean, I don’t get any fast ones for years in my Youth Challenge plus through coming DM are dwarfs. 

[Tsuru]

Hi @crusadertsar. This thread is quality! 

I used it as an inspiration for my own tactic, which I started to test in my YC in Serbia. This is the current version - my GK also distributes to FBs and CDs, this option is not available in Rate my Tactic.
 

 

The left fullback has "Get Further Forward" and the DM-Su has "Hold Position" as PIs. I also started to use a Shadow Striker as my strikers are struggling here and I don´t have any good boys to be my spearhead - yet. So the idea for now is to make my CAMs as my main goalscorers. I also tried to use my best players in their preferred roles/duties to emphasize our best virtues.

I am still testing and tweaking, however looking at it, the tactic seems to be too crowded in the middle. Also I don´t know if I need a IF-Su with an overlapping fullback in the right as I already have an attacking pair in the middle. I will try an IW-Su/W-Su with an underlapping instruction in the right, I think it will be a nice combination and it will create some good variations here. And also maybe  add "Overlap Left" so the left FB can work more closely with our playmaker.

The first tests were good as I said, I will keep working and testing and I will come back here when the tactic is more mature and consolidated.

Thank you!

Edited March 1 by Tsuru

[crusadertsar]

On 01/03/2024 at 11:07, Tsuru said:

Hi @crusadertsar. This thread is quality! 

I used it as an inspiration for my own tactic, which I started to test in my YC in Serbia. This is the current version - my GK also distributes to FBs and CDs, this option is not available in Rate my Tactic.
 

 

The left fullback has "Get Further Forward" and the DM-Su has "Hold Position" as PIs. I also started to use a Shadow Striker as my strikers are struggling here and I don´t have any good boys to be my spearhead - yet. So the idea for now is to make my CAMs as my main goalscorers. I also tried to use my best players in their preferred roles/duties to emphasize our best virtues.

I am still testing and tweaking, however looking at it, the tactic seems to be too crowded in the middle. Also I don´t know if I need a IF-Su with an overlapping fullback in the right as I already have an attacking pair in the middle. I will try an IW-Su/W-Su with an underlapping instruction in the right, I think it will be a nice combination and it will create some good variations here. And also maybe  add "Overlap Left" so the left FB can work more closely with our playmaker.

The first tests were good as I said, I will keep working and testing and I will come back here when the tactic is more mature and consolidated.

Thank you!

Thanks, I'm glad you are enjoying the thread

Shadow Striker is one of my favourite roles in FM and in every version of the game I usually try to create a tactic to get the best out of it. It's fun and challenging/frustrating at the same time. Frustration often comes from the fact that you need a specific type of player to excell in this role. A mix of great mentals of a midfielder with attacking technical instinct of a striker and not to mention relatively good acceleration/pace. Bayern's Muller used to be my go-to player for this role but he is starting to lose his legs due to age. In FM24, Aston Villa's Ollie Watkins looks like he might be almost perfect for this role. Exceptional workrate married to great finishing, off the ball and physical attributes.

I think you are right about the tactic getting too overloaded in the middle. To create more space for your SS you will need to play wider. Use W(S) on one flank and then another supporting role like IW(s) or even WM(S) on the other flank. Then at least one fullback/wingback to also provide width. The trick is also not to take away from from your Shadow Striker's limelight by using IF. I would really focus on overloading the opposition down the middle via SS and maybe another central attack like SV(A) but if you do that make sure to have an inverted wingback tuck inside to cover for the Segundo Volante who will move into AM strata due to Positional Play. 

Edited March 3 by crusadertsar

[Tsuru]

Em 02/03/2024 em 23:53, crusadertsar disse:

Thanks, I'm glad you are enjoying the thread

Shadow Striker is one of my favourite roles in FM and in every version of the game I usually try to create a tactic to get the best out of it. It's fun and challenging/frustrating at the same time. Frustration often comes from the fact that you need a specific type of player to excell in this role. A mix of great mentals of a midfielder with attacking technical instinct of a striker and not to mention relatively good acceleration/pace. Bayern's Muller used to be my go-to player for this role but he is starting to lose his legs due to age. In FM24, Aston Villa's Ollie Watkins looks like he might be almost perfect for this role. Exceptional workrate married to great finishing, off the ball and physical attributes.

I think you are right about the tactic getting too overloaded in the middle. To create more space for your SS you will need to play wider. Use W(S) on one flank and then another supporting role like IW(s) or even WM(S) on the other flank. Then at least one fullback/wingback to also provide width. The trick is also not to take away from from your Shadow Striker's limelight by using IF. I would really focus on overloading the opposition down the middle via SS and maybe another central attack like SV(A) but if you do that make sure to have an inverted wingback tuck inside to cover for the Segundo Volante who will move into AM strata due to Positional Play. 

Thank you so much for your feedback. As I have been playing a Youth Challenge the key point here will be to develop/build my own Shadow Strikers, based in youngsters that have this profile, either if they come from the advanced midfielder or striker positions. The thing that helps me is that it is in Serbia, so I hope to get nice prospects very soon 

This save was migrated from FM 23, so you can imagine that things were a little bit different. On the left I am using a Fullback on Support with Get Further Forward, backed up by a DM on Support with "Hold Position" and a IW-S ahead of them. I experimented a "Overlap Left" instruction but it cut off some of our speed and made the IW very slow on transitions so I removed it. While on the right side I have a Fullback on Support with "Cut Inside with ball" and instructions to tuck inside. This is because my best fullback is a natural WB and could struggle as a traditional IWB. The idea is that he moves into the space vacated by a Segundo Volante-At, and ahead of them I have a Winger on Support giving us some width and speed in the flank. 

The first test was good. After I removed the Overlap instruction the IW-S carried the ball through the left flank and crossed it to the W-S, which served the right FB to score our winning goal. Also the Segundo Volante almost scored the third goal a little bit later. The team played well, I think we need more time for tactical familiarity and for the players to get used to it, in general it seems very promising.

I will sure come back to give you a more detailed feedback as soon as I have it. Thank you!

[crusadertsar]

Shadow Strikers, Positional Play, and Versatility of 4-2-3-1

Shadow Striker Role

I was recently inspired to integrate a Shadow Striker into my tactic (thanks to @Tsuru). But it's a tricky role to get to work in FM24 and one that invariably requires some specific conditions in order to thrive. 

Firstly, it required a switch to a more top-heavy formation. 4-4-1-1 > 4-2-3-1. With a Shadow Striker, any formation could work but to get the best results you need to bring your AMC strata closer to the opposition. You don't necessarily need to switch to an all out high-pressing gegenpress 4-2-3-1 but getting at least 4 of your attackers closer to the opposition defence will help in both creating overloads and opening spaces for your Shadow Striker to operate in. Mid-block could still work for an exceptionally pacey shadow striker but I would advise against it. 

Secondly, having roles that cater to the Shadow Striker's movement really helps. Shadow Striker operates primarily through the middle channel and for him to be effective he needs both wide attackers providing width (at least most of the time) and a central striker who is both mobile and intelligent enough to draw opposition defenders out of position and provide support to his Shadow Striker partner. Inside Forwards are not suited as early on they will try to attack the same spaces as SS and will take the limelight away from your SS. Similarly IW, even with stay wider instruction, might still congest your central space. Winger, on the other hand, especially one that operates on the side opposite from his dominant foot, fits well with SS movement. He will cut in, but much later during attacking phase, after the shadow striker made his own move.

Some argue for the merits of pairing Targetman-type forward with a Shadow Striker. But I don't believe he is mobile enough for what SS needs. False 9 has traditionally been paired with SS for best results. Yet one does not necessarily need a striker that drops very deep to make space for SS. Mobile strikers like Advanced Forward or Complete Forward can both work very well in occupying opposition defenders and creating space for the AMC to operate in. Advanced Forward will push the defenders back and dribble to the flanks at times which will open channels for your SS. CF will act similarly but will also hold up the ball and provide more traditional support at times. If you have the right player then pairing CF with SS is an ideal combination. Otherwise AF is my next best choice. 

Another thing to note in the tactic above, is that I went with a central alignment for both striker and shadow striker. Some might suggest that offsetting the SS is preferable, and it works in some situations, but I have my reason. When you offset (play one more to the right/left and the other in the opposite direction) then you invariably limit their runs to only use that specific channel (either left or right depending of their offset side). This will make your attacking movement much more predictable and easier for AI to block. On the other hand, central vertical alignment will allow both players more freedom of movement to choose which channel to attack. This off course only works when you choose a striker with "move into channels" hardcoded instruction (such as CF or AF). And another reason why I would not pair a static striker like TF or Poacher with a Shadow Striker. 

Positional Play's Versatility

As many of you know already know, this year’s match engine had some rather significant changes in how some roles behave and move when out-of-possession (defending) versus in-possession (during attacking phase). Specifically, there are now roles in FM that actively change position from one strata to another. This is designed to accommodate changing tactical shapes: one for defending and one for attacking. One of the central tenets of Juego Posicional (Positional Play).
In short to accommodate Positional Play, the following roles behave like this:

Inverted Fullback - moves from FB to CD.
Inverted Wingback - from FB or WB to DM.
Libero - from CD to DM/
Halfback (from DM to CD) – when offset (not central) then he will still cause the two CBs to go wider.
Segundo Volante – from DM to AM.
Roaming Playmaker – from DM or CM to AM.
Box to Box Midfielder – from CM to AM.
CM (A) – from CM to AM.

Due to these Positional Play changes, possession-heavy styles of football has become more effective than ever. When I use some of these "positional play-inclined" roles in my tactic, then I will get the following shape during possession.

 

A staggered front five (or 4-1 if you will) supported by 3-2 in defence and midfield. A very solid attacking 3-2-4-1 shape, especially in regards to maintaining possession and central build-up. Despite his deep starting position, the Segundo Volante will move up next to your Shadow Striker (due to his hidden positional play coding) while the SS will drift more right and therefore will be ideally positioned to attack the right channel 

Note how the Libero moves up to form a defensive double pivot with my DM(S). While at the same time a Back-Three is formed with the two Inverted Fullbacks and Ball-Playing Centreback. There is definitely some Match Engine "magic" at play here because in all of my experiments with creating a Back Three in possession, the only role combination that created an ideal spread of the three defenders has been the one with two IFDs and Libero BPD combination in the back. As you can see in the heatmap of the image below.

The back three spread to provide us with nice rest defence while the Libero moves up into staggered pivot position with the DM. It does not mean that he always stays back. In fact, in almost regista-like fashion your libero will pop up further upfield to help recycle possession and to support your forwards with pinpoint passes. Not surprisinly, you will need a very good player for the libero role. I am currently using a retrained Defensive Midfielder Mikel Merino who fits the deep defensive playmaker role perfectly.

When I tested this with one Inverted Wingback(S), BPD(D), CD(D) and IFB, the three in back of BPD, CD and Inverted Defensive Fullback would not form the nice spread out defensive trio even as the Inverted Wingback and DM(S) formed the double pivot ahead of them. The IFB, Libero, BPD(D) (or CD if you don't have the right player) IFD combination is really ideal when trying to create a 3-2 build-up shape. It also happens to be very defensively solid. These are my statistics this season (while using the above 4-2-3-1 for majority of the games).

The 2027-28 season has certainly had the best start so far due to this 4-2-3-1 tactic. Only 13 goals conceded in 21 League games. And our 19 y.o wonderkid Chechu made the role of Shadow Striker into his own with 10 goals scored so far. As an example, this was a game where he scored a hat-trick and we absolutely dominated the opposition as you can see in the match stats.

 

The nice 3-2 in the back attack shape ensures that our ball progression goes mainly through the middle to feed the Shadow Striker. This is just fine when facing most of the opposition which is equal or slightly better than us. But in some matches we happen to be up against a parked bus where the inferior opposition already congests the middle of the field in hopes of stopping our advance. In such cases I make a little change to the tactic to make it play completely different and make us into a more direct wide threat.

Note, that in this case, I always play a right Winger with a dominant left foot to make him naturally cut inside late in our attack and make more space for our attacking wingback. At the same time our Half-back will drop back to form a back three again with the IFB and BPD. 

Edited March 10 by crusadertsar

[bosque]

Wow, your ideas looks almost exactly like what I'm doing but with a 4-3-3. Even with the WB(a) when facing a parked bus and going 3-1-5-1.

Edited March 11 by bosque

[TheMartello]

50 minutes ago, bosque said:

Wow, your ideas looks almost exactly like what I'm doing but with a 4-3-3. Even with the WB(a) when facing a parked bus and going 3-1-5-1.

Can you share yours too?

[crusadertsar]

5 hours ago, bosque said:

Wow, your ideas looks almost exactly like what I'm doing but with a 4-3-3. Even with the WB(a) when facing a parked bus and going 3-1-5-1.

Something like this then?

Honestly, I was really tempted to go back to 433 because of this set-up. It's another one where 3-2-4-1 in possession can be created super easily. So either from 4-2-3-1 or 433 you could transition into the overpowered 3-2-4-1 attacking shape. In the end I stuck with 4-2-3-1 just because its a tad more versatile in my opinion. To go from narrow attack to wider (with wingback on right) it just takes fewer adjustments to the overall tactic. In 4-2-3-1 all I do is change the roles of the DM (to HB) and right IFB to Wingback (A) or Fullback (A). And besides I have too many good attacking midfield players to know what to do with  But both formations are great when it comes to Positional Play. 

Edited March 12 by crusadertsar

[bosque]

4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Something like this then?

Honestly, I was really tempted to go back to 433 because of this set-up. It's another one where 3-2-4-1 in possession can be created super easily. So either from 4-2-3-1 or 433 you could transition into the overpowered 3-2-4-1 attacking shape. In the end I stuck with 4-2-3-1 just because its a tad more versatile in my opinion. To go from narrow attack to wider (with wingback on right) it just takes fewer adjustments to the overall tactic. In 4-2-3-1 all I do is change the roles of the DM (to HB) and right IFB to Wingback (A) or Fullback (A). And besides I have too many good attacking midfield players to know what to do with  But both formations are great when it comes to Positional Play. 

@TheMartello

It looks like this:

But depending on the opposition, sometimes I end up using this:

Spoiler

I was using the 4231 before this, but I changed to the 433 because I found we were too slow and predictable during build-up. My hypothesis was that it is because we lacked 1 player during build-up (the AM).

- I'm happy with the IF + IW on the flanks because I like the "minimum width" concept (they are wide because of the positional play feature). But I may try the "wrong-footed" wingers in the future.

- I was using an AF before; I started using the DLFa just for experimental purposes  And I like it. He does a good mix of dropping back for build-up and runs in behind. I really like it when he drops and both IF and APa (and sometimes IWs) attack the space.

- I did not find trouble with the back 3 shape using the IWBs. Can't understand why it was odd for you.

Edited March 12 by bosque

[poma]

On 10/03/2024 at 16:45, crusadertsar said:

Shadow Strikers, Positional Play, and Versatility of 4-2-3-1

Shadow Striker Role

I was recently inspired to integrate a Shadow Striker into my tactic (thanks to @Tsuru). But it's a tricky role to get to work in FM24 and one that invariably requires some specific conditions in order to thrive. 

Firstly, it required a switch to a more top-heavy formation. 4-4-1-1 > 4-2-3-1. With a Shadow Striker, any formation could work but to get the best results you need to bring your AMC strata closer to the opposition. You don't necessarily need to switch to an all out high-pressing gegenpress 4-2-3-1 but getting at least 4 of your attackers closer to the opposition defence will help in both creating overloads and opening spaces for your Shadow Striker to operate in. Mid-block could still work for an exceptionally pacey shadow striker but I would advise against it. 

Secondly, having roles that cater to the Shadow Striker's movement really helps. Shadow Striker operates primarily through the middle channel and for him to be effective he needs both wide attackers providing width (at least most of the time) and a central striker who is both mobile and intelligent enough to draw opposition defenders out of position and provide support to his Shadow Striker partner. Inside Forwards are not suited as early on they will try to attack the same spaces as SS and will take the limelight away from your SS. Similarly IW, even with stay wider instruction, might still congest your central space. Winger, on the other hand, especially one that operates on the side opposite from his dominant foot, fits well with SS movement. He will cut in, but much later during attacking phase, after the shadow striker made his own move.

Some argue for the merits of pairing Targetman-type forward with a Shadow Striker. But I don't believe he is mobile enough for what SS needs. False 9 has traditionally been paired with SS for best results. Yet one does not necessarily need a striker that drops very deep to make space for SS. Mobile strikers like Advanced Forward or Complete Forward can both work very well in occupying opposition defenders and creating space for the AMC to operate in. Advanced Forward will push the defenders back and dribble to the flanks at times which will open channels for your SS. CF will act similarly but will also hold up the ball and provide more traditional support at times. If you have the right player then pairing CF with SS is an ideal combination. Otherwise AF is my next best choice. 

Another thing to note in the tactic above, is that I went with a central alignment for both striker and shadow striker. Some might suggest that offsetting the SS is preferable, and it works in some situations, but I have my reason. When you offset (play one more to the right/left and the other in the opposite direction) then you invariably limit their runs to only use that specific channel (either left or right depending of their offset side). This will make your attacking movement much more predictable and easier for AI to block. On the other hand, central vertical alignment will allow both players more freedom of movement to choose which channel to attack. This off course only works when you choose a striker with "move into channels" hardcoded instruction (such as CF or AF). And another reason why I would not pair a static striker like TF or Poacher with a Shadow Striker. 

Positional Play's Versatility

As many of you know already know, this year’s match engine had some rather significant changes in how some roles behave and move when out-of-possession (defending) versus in-possession (during attacking phase). Specifically, there are now roles in FM that actively change position from one strata to another. This is designed to accommodate changing tactical shapes: one for defending and one for attacking. One of the central tenets of Juego Posicional (Positional Play).
In short to accommodate Positional Play, the following roles behave like this:

Inverted Fullback - moves from FB to CD.
Inverted Wingback - from FB or WB to DM.
Libero - from CD to DM/
Halfback (from DM to CD) – when offset (not central) then he will still cause the two CBs to go wider.
Segundo Volante – from DM to AM.
Roaming Playmaker – from DM or CM to AM.
Box to Box Midfielder – from CM to AM.
CM (A) – from CM to AM.

Due to these Positional Play changes, possession-heavy styles of football has become more effective than ever. When I use some of these "positional play-inclined" roles in my tactic, then I will get the following shape during possession.

 

A staggered front five (or 4-1 if you will) supported by 3-2 in defence and midfield. A very solid attacking 3-2-4-1 shape, especially in regards to maintaining possession and central build-up. Despite his deep starting position, the Segundo Volante will move up next to your Shadow Striker (due to his hidden positional play coding) while the SS will drift more right and therefore will be ideally positioned to attack the right channel 

Note how the Libero moves up to form a defensive double pivot with my DM(S). While at the same time a Back-Three is formed with the two Inverted Fullbacks and Ball-Playing Centreback. There is definitely some Match Engine "magic" at play here because in all of my experiments with creating a Back Three in possession, the only role combination that created an ideal spread of the three defenders has been the one with two IFDs and Libero BPD combination in the back. As you can see in the heatmap of the image below.

The back three spread to provide us with nice rest defence while the Libero moves up into staggered pivot position with the DM. It does not mean that he always stays back. In fact, in almost regista-like fashion your libero will pop up further upfield to help recycle possession and to support your forwards with pinpoint passes. Not surprisinly, you will need a very good player for the libero role. I am currently using a retrained Defensive Midfielder Mikel Merino who fits the deep defensive playmaker role perfectly.

When I tested this with one Inverted Wingback(S), BPD(D), CD(D) and IFB, the three in back of BPD, CD and Inverted Defensive Fullback would not form the nice spread out defensive trio even as the Inverted Wingback and DM(S) formed the double pivot ahead of them. The IFB, Libero, BPD(D) (or CD if you don't have the right player) IFD combination is really ideal when trying to create a 3-2 build-up shape. It also happens to be very defensively solid. These are my statistics this season (while using the above 4-2-3-1 for majority of the games).

The 2027-28 season has certainly had the best start so far due to this 4-2-3-1 tactic. Only 13 goals conceded in 21 League games. And our 19 y.o wonderkid Chechu made the role of Shadow Striker into his own with 10 goals scored so far. As an example, this was a game where he scored a hat-trick and we absolutely dominated the opposition as you can see in the match stats.

 

The nice 3-2 in the back attack shape ensures that our ball progression goes mainly through the middle to feed the Shadow Striker. This is just fine when facing most of the opposition which is equal or slightly better than us. But in some matches we happen to be up against a parked bus where the inferior opposition already congests the middle of the field in hopes of stopping our advance. In such cases I make a little change to the tactic to make it play completely different and make us into a more direct wide threat.

Note, that in this case, I always play a right Winger with a dominant left foot to make him naturally cut inside late in our attack and make more space for our attacking wingback. At the same time our Half-back will drop back to form a back three again with the IFB and BPD. 

Have you used any Pi's?

[Jack722]

On 19/11/2023 at 14:31, crusadertsar said:

Thanks for following mate. Indeed striking the right balance between conceding fewest goals and actually being clinical in the offensive phase can be tricky. Unlike with more aggressive attacking styles where your team is always pushing into the opposition half, you will have far less chances. So this only puts even more stress on setting up the attacking portion of the tactic and the roles just right. You have to have the right players and they have to be doing the right thing. I don't think my tactic is perfect but we seem to be doing more things right then wrong.

Currently sitting in 4th in beginning of March. And it looks like its going to be a pretty close title race. I'm not stressing to win it in our 1st season but it would be a nice surprise. It will certainly be an interesting showdown in the last month and a half between Real Madrid, Barcelona and Villareal (surprise!). I also hope that Athletic Bilbao gets in there too. The more Basque clubs in Europe next year the better . On the other hand Athletico Madrid have bombed the season completely sitting in 12 spot. The level of competition and quality from other teams is exactly why I find LaLiga to be my favourite league in football (and it has been for quite a while now). And every year there always seems to be some surprise factor like Villareal this season. 

Also as seen in the screenshot above, our attacking is not that shabby for a defensive-focused style. Sitting in 3rd position (behind Real Madrid and Villareal) in numbers of goals scored. So far La Real scored 50 goals (16 coming from our Pressing Forward Sadiq, 10 from AMC Oyarzabal, 7 and 5 from wingers Brais Mendez and Barrenetxea respectively). Mendez has been absolutely key in his right wing position, also assisting on 11 assists. So the team's offensive contribution is pretty much split realistically between the 4 attacking players. My players are playing as to be expected by their roles. Those with attack duties are scoring more while support duties are supporting. Oyarzabal is a bit of an outlier with his offensive contribution but I actually planned for his role to act as a sort of secondary supporting striker for us. I even added "get further forward" instruction to make sure he gets more involved in attacking phase later in the buildup. I like a good old Shadow Striker role but find it a bit too aggressive for my set up, preferring my AMC to also drop deeper and help out the midfielders. I might consider adding "comes deep to get the ball" but I suspect I would need a faster player than Oyarzabal to get the full benefit from it. With his Acceleration I don't think Mikel would be able to keep up in both midfield and attack. So I will keep him as is for now. He seems to be doing just fine. 

Tactically, I like to keep things as simple as possible with few team instructions and a couple more player instructions to influence player behavior under the hood. I was actually inspired a lot by a recent excellent comment written by @herne79 in which he described how his West Ham team plays. Unfortunately it disappeared since because its thread was deleted. I sort of see Real Sociedad as a similar team to West Ham in terms of being too good for mid-table but not quite good enough to be a regular in the top 5 of the league. But this type of fluid counter-attacking approach could work very well with both teams. 

Now to explain a little my choice of roles and some of the instructions. I tried to keep all the roles different (because I believe tactical variety is key when it comes to roles). The two fullbacks actually play very differently. I used to use wingback on the left flank but since found a simple fullback with "get further forward" instruction to give more balance to our defence. You could get a similar effect by using a player with "get further" trait there. On the right flank, I use a fullback with increased mentality (due to "underlap right" instruction) to a similar effect but less adventurous than my left fullback which is just the way I like it. I want balance in our attack. On the right side we have a more adventurous Segundo Volante (I am currently testing "get further forward" instruction with young Benat Turrientes in that role because he has much better acceleration and pace than Merino). While on the left flank we have a more attacking Inverted Winger so it made sense to switch from Wingback to fullback there. While at same time "get further" instruction ensures that the fullback will still overlap our winger when opportunity presents itself. 
I got to say that I really love the Defensive Winger role in this setup. I was rather surprised with the output that we received from Brais Mendez in that role but on second thought he does seem very suitable to it. 

Some of the other individual instructions I used so far:

• "Roam from position" for my AMC - I don't use a playmaker in this role to avoid him getting marked excessively but he still attracts opposition DMs from time to time so roaming helps alot in that respect. He also gets "Get further forward" but I explained that one already.
• The only other role with a few individual instructions is my left DM. I tell him to "Dribble Less", "Shoot Less Often" and "Hold Position". I could use Ballwinning Midfielder in this position to mimic the same behavior but I don't really want my player going too heavy on the tackling. He is one of the hidden playmakers in my tactic (as I usually play Zubimendi or Merino there) and I don't want him to amass yellow cards and risk being thrown out of the game. In general, the goal of the tactic is to be very disciplined and limit number of yellows. As you can see from one of the screens above, we are currently sitting with 14 total yellow cards which is the best in the league.
• My left fullback - "Get Further Forward" - already explained. 

And now a few more defensive statistics. I don't want to continue bragging but just feel like its relevant here since the objective of the tactic is defensive performance afterall 

In March we remain best team in terms of goals conceded (24 for whole season). As you can see from image above there is quite a divide between Real Sociedad and the rest of the league in that respect. 

La Real is also tied with Athletic Bilbao (Yay!!) and Barcelona for the number of clean sheets (12) which is a statistic that I am even more proud off. A lot of this probably has to do with the performances of our primary keeper. Remiro is quite good although definitely not a world-class keeper like ones that Barcelona and Real Madrid have. However he is very reliable and rarely gets injured which helps alot.

 

Here are some of our recent performances. Love seeing all those clean sheets  An interesting fact is that all of our goals seem to come in the 2nd half. But realizing that our overall tactical intensity is relatively low it's not all that surprising. Keeping my players fresh and performing at the top of their abilities during the match is part of the master plan. So by minute 55 when the AI is tired from running around and pressing everywhere my players are still in the green and ready to pounce on any scoring chances.

So that's it for now! In a future mini-update I would love to share some of the nice clinical goals I have been seeing with this system and some of the heat maps of player positioning perhaps. There is definitely a lot that I am loving with this campaign and many more things I am looking forward to sharing, especially our youth intakes which I've always found to be exciting with Real Sociedad in my previous saves.

Below is the preview of the 1st intake coming in only a few weeks now. Very excited to see what it brings! 5-star golden generation is good indication of what to expect but I am also thrilled to be getting some excellent midfielders and defensive midfielders it seems. And probably a decent centreback or two. Which is exactly what we need in the future. 

Agur! And thanks for following along with me on this journey everyone!

 

Sorry but this is definitely not a defence first tactic. It's just not an overly attacking / possession focused tactic that we see everyone use on Football Manager. It would be interesting to see you use some of the lower mentalities and reduced pressing instructions, as well as some of the more defensive roles like No nonsence centre back.

[crusadertsar]

16 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Sorry but this is definitely not a defence first tactic. It's just not an overly attacking / possession focused tactic that we see everyone use on Football Manager. It would be interesting to see you use some of the lower mentalities and reduced pressing instructions, as well as some of the more defensive roles like No nonsence centre back.

Hate to break your bubble but using lower mentalities does not instantly mean "defensive" tactic. I could play truly defensive football with attacking team mentality and lowest defensive line and lowest line of engagement for example. And 5-6 of my players staying back to create some truly scary Catenaccio system. And depending on my role set up I could make it into a parked bus tactic. But I choose not to. Because my intention is not to park the bus, it's to play balanced style of football where I limit number of conceded goals as much as possible. Hence "Defence-First", not "anti-football" parked bus football. And why would I use NCB when my CBs are very technical and more suited to BPD or Libero role? Again my intention is to show that "Defence-First football can be beautiful clinical style of football without degenerating into Route One Pulisball. So I think you misunderstood the intention of this thread. 

Sign of a good defensively-responsible tactic are the results, not a specific choice of roles or mentalities. Although some combinations of the two tend to help with defence more than others. The reason why lower mentalities can be conductive to defence is because they equate less risk. But it's not a magic button where you set everything to lowest risk possible and creates a super great defensive tactic. In fact such a tactic would probably be terrible because you would be too passive, give up all the space to AI in front of your goal and "die by thousand cuts" or shots in this case 

Edited March 17 by crusadertsar