My Fluid Counter-Attack: 0.53 AG per game, 0.43 in second season

[Novem9]

Let me show my last ingame experience

At first thank you for all members who answered for me directly and for other members and I can use search to read this  You are the best!

Finally I play in my favourite style  and this is looks exactly as I wanted 

Before we start a little feedback. Spartak Moscow (prediction is 5, board requires for Conf. League, players agreed for EL) has a very rich owner without any patience. Just few managers who was in Spartak in last 20 years - Nevio Scala, Michael Laudrup, Valery Karpin, Unai Emery, Murat Yakin, Dmitriy Alenichev, Massimo Carrera, Domenico Tedesko. There are 15 managers for 17 years. As a result - Spartak no plays in Eurocups and has young squad without a real reserve. + Russian stupid limit for 8 foreign players only  So I have a money and have no real opportunity to make my first XI better 

My main tactic is 4231. I switched LOE to -1 or 0 or +1 in context of situation, but it a counter attack anyway.
Even if my LOE +1 its meaning that my defensive part have a few seconds more to hold positions.

I could be wrong, but looks like low LOE is not neccesary for counter attacks. Default lines + TI influence and you will have potential space for quick attacks:

 

 

I dont use regroup because dont see a necessity. My team is fine in rollback without this option 

One thing which I started to use during season is blocking of opposite playmaker. Usually it happens for DLP. 4231 is very good for this because no matter DLP is DM/CM zone or left/right side - CAM always a shadow of playmaker + we have W and IW and CM for better blocking.

My CM is marking opposite DLP

 

My CAM is marking opposite DLP:

 

My AF is marking opposite DLP:

 

My favourite example is game vs Sochi. But before I show this, I need to present you my plan B.
As I said my reserve is low. So when my key player Zobnin asked for a transfer and few injures were happened I need to switch my team for another plan.

This is 433 and it was created by influence of epic game Chelsea 4-2 Barcelona in season 04/05

 

This is the same switch for LOE depends of context and the same situations for counter attacks.

 

A problem in case of playmaker blocking - no CAM. But there are could be another blocking of DLP. In 4231 case I block DLP directly. In 433 it could be blocked his decisions.
So lets return for Sochi.

My scout reports that C. Noboa is DLP role. I noticed that other roles are linked for DLP and depend of him. I really wanted to use 4231, but double CAM of Sochi confused me, so my choice was 433.
Also you need to know that Noboa is pretty smart player, but even younger he never was a quick

 

So what we need:

1. Have a pressure (mental) for Noboa for he takes hurried decisions
2. Have an 'aura' around him for no chance for profitable passing

 

 

But the better vision of results are clear analysis

Noboa passing forward:

 

Noboa passing backwards

 

Noboa passing sideways

 

Game's Result

Mischief Managed!

 

About sad moments. My worst game

At first, it was my first opponent with 442. I tried to block their DLP (Wendell) but it was a fault. The best thing could be a clear counter game from deep positions. I tried to disable their mind-engine but in fact they was total in their attacks so I just have no resources to disable ALL options which they found. Anyway all 3 goals were scored from corners/fk crossing.

 

In second game I take into account my experience and also I switched my mentality for BALANCED. Why? Zenit players are better of mine. Positive mentality was a reason why I lose a ball after passing (riskly mentality), so I did. Revenge was sweet  

 

Unfortunatelly I didn't win the league. But I dont worry about this.

First issue was happened in start. I just collibrate my tactic, checked PF and TM roles for attack.
-6 points after 0-0 in a row

But really what I can did more? Thanks for my players poor finishing 

      

 

But I could be a champion until pre-last matchday. We won 1-0 and opposite player use long shot in second half and 1-1. I had a lot of injures and my plan was ruined, feeble reason, but it was.

Anyway, I have a ticket for ChL, a chance to build a team as I want. And as a disciple of Defensive Art of Football, I'm happy that my team missed just 16 goals in 30 games.

 

My 3 attacking players in top10 of goalscoarers

 

Never liked a lot of YC, probably my resulst were better if I used balanced get stuck in, but I didn't

 

No comments

 

 

After halfseason my goals difference was +18, after full season is +40. I guess this is a true road  

 

BONUS. I had 5 CM and two of them were injured. My next game was Tambov away (low team) so I didnt change tactic for 442 and used a young player from reserve team.
It was his first game and check what he created

 

 

In the end, thank you for your attention! Sorry for my English, grammar especially
I want to say again, thank you all for wasting your time to take an answers in tactical forum. Without your help I just couldn't create a tactics which I want to see.
This is amazing community and I have a pleasure to be a little part of this  

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Edited January 4, 2021 by Novem9

[Robson 07]

Gets a thumbs up from me. 

[TIR669]

Interesting read and very solid results.

I'm curious about marking the DLP/AP - do you set it as PI for the player in your team that's closest to DLP/AP (mark specific player)? Do you add TM Always to that opposing player? Is it a combination of both?

[Novem9]

2 минуты назад, TIR669 сказал:

Interesting read and very solid results.

I'm curious about marking the DLP/AP - do you set it as PI for the player in your team that's closest to DLP/AP (mark specific player)? Do you add TM Always to that opposing player? Is it a combination of both?

It was individual for every case. I never used pre-game OI forsure because there are no info about PM roles.
Usually this is OI during game. Rarely I did use PI marking, but it was mainly for cases where I already won and need to waste a time for finish. But I like OI more because I need a few players who will be open for counter, so PI marking is a 'mutual disabling' , exchange of chess pieces  

Concerning PI marking, it was sometimes for my FB more for closer players for their positions

Also I still dont check one case. I use tight marking as TI and I suspect this is could be an influence for OI marking. As I has a tight marking for ALL players, so DLP marking is not so priority as it could be.
But I was no ready to use marking for OI only, mb it will be in next seasons.

[Novem9]

Few changes happen in second season. At first I sold my vice captain Samuel Gigot which moved for Burnley (11 mln euro)
But I bought a young quick player which looks very good in my tactic, for first games at least."

I wanted to buy more players, but as I said before - stupid foreign limit blocked any chance for a big changes. But honestly - my rep and league rep are not attracted a good players, just 1-2 foreign which I probably bought if have a slots.
Second positive - few young players which I started to use in main team in prev season are better now. So I even have a real reserve, rotation opportunity 

What about tactic, as you remember both my formations had DLP role. Funny thing, because this happened just because it was the promise for Youssef Aït Bennasser which I bought from Monaco. For now I sent him for Nice's loan and promise is done anyway, so I changed DLP for CM. This is good thing because this is not a good idea to use DLP for opposite marking  

Btw, my current main formation is 433. And second, very importang change - balanced mentality. I inspired this idea after won 2-0 Zenit. Positive mentality gave me best team of the league by created chances, but I didnt win the title. 

 

I still play in this funny game to isolate opposite playmaker, but less often

 

This is the picture which I want to see. 5 players are focused for counter attacks. 1 player (CM) is a support in all sences. 4 players are focused for defence at first

 

First months I used CM with PI 'hold position' but I deleted this later. It was idea to CM not go into box area , but he still did. But looked like this PI created some troubles for my defensive shape.

 

 

I tried to find a system in choosing of LOE. And it looks like no system exist  LOE -1 (or 0, or+1) could work for any team and this is no a clear correlation between opposite formation, or opposite club reputation, etc. This is a sum of many factors, and opposite tactic (TI) is hidden, so every game I need to watch and analyze. This is not bad for me, just to clarification, because it was a big question for me and some other members about LOE. This is not an arcade with a true answers  every case is unique.

Unfortunatelly I realized this after I lose qualification for ChL Group Stage. I won 1-0 Sporting Lisboa at home.

Just 2 pictures from away game. And little note - I won first game in usin LOE -1, but Sporting was careful in first game (and they were close to paid for this!) so I believed my LOE -1 will be a perfect plan for second game too.

1) First goal, long shot. My LOE was -1 and this was a free space to land airplane  

 

2) Second goal, very similar situation. Sporting used very uncomfortable formation for me - 4312 without wing midfields. The same situations didnt exist usually, but there are I had a skilled opposite side which used my mistakes effective

It would be very interesting to check my tactic with the best teams, but we'll have to postpone it for next season. Hopefully

 

In general balanced mentality works better that I expected. I need to analyze what went wrong in Ufa away and this game spoils the overall impression  Btw, exactly after Ufa I deleted 'hold position' for CM. Will see for changes.

My agenda is FBs. My FB(d) had cautious mentality in positive. For now I use FB(s) (balanced mentality) + hold position. And my right flank looks unreliable in defence.
So I will be think about this role and LB role too, just by chance, since I started  

 

If you have any minds and ideas about tactic and roles, feel free to say this  Thank you for attention!

 

p.s. after Ufa away defeat I delete tight marking from TI. It will be marking for OI only in next games

Edited January 1, 2021 by Novem9

[kingjericho]

Keep up the good work 

[ta11zx]

Can I use this as a plug and play? 

 

I want to play this tactic on a 442 but I'm not sure how to set up the roles. 

 

I have been trying to find a defensive tactic for ages but with no success.  This is why your post drew my attention. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ta11zx

[frukox]

6 hours ago, ta11zx said:

Can I use this as a plug and play? 

 

I want to play this tactic on a 442 but I'm not sure how to set up the roles. 

 

I have been trying to find a defensive tactic for ages but with no success.  This is why your post drew my attention. 

Those kind of tactics are in the Tactic Sharing Forum. You can take a look at them there.https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/67-tactics-sharing-centre-uploaddownload/

Edited January 2, 2021 by frukox

[Novem9]

9 часов назад, ta11zx сказал:

Can I use this as a plug and play? 

 

I dont think so. P'n'p tactics are usually extra agressive and this is why you can use them in any team and in any context (and still it couldn't be working for specific teams/matches)
As I wrote above, I have some little changes during almost every game. OI, LOE, duties, small things, but I do. And small things are influential too. And tactic is adapted for current players for sure.

 

9 часов назад, ta11zx сказал:

I want to play this tactic on a 442 but I'm not sure how to set up the roles. 

 

I used 442 in this save twice. But both cases were for 15-20 minutes during match in injuries issue.
First time it was a fail (LOE -1) and the second it was better. I used DL=0 and LOE=+1. I dont remember used or not regroup option, but it was an idea that 2 strikers AF+PF(s) are blocking opposite team while other team move for defensive shape.

Probably it worked for specific opponent only, but tactic worked because I watched to the field and corrected TI. FM21 is good for this.
Theory is important, but in the end you need take decisions in a real time. Example - many members write about they like to play DL+1 and LOE=0, but I tried to play in this many times and looks like I just dont understand this. So I play in styles which I feel, like this one fluid counter. 

 

9 часов назад, ta11zx сказал:

I have been trying to find a defensive tactic for ages but with no success.  This is why your post drew my attention. 

You are always could ask in this forum about your tactic and search for questions (TI options for example) which already asked/answered. This is much more useful than try to find solution just by yourself, especially if you have no understanding of some things 

 

Cheers!

Edited January 2, 2021 by Novem9

[Novem9]

I finished second season. And spoiler - yes, I did it! But first things first.

All games until winter break I played by tactic above. It was good, pretty solid. My AF is scored many many goals, but it was a feeling that I could more. Especially because I had a real stimulus represented by Dinamo Moscow 

Half-season positions:

It was a simple group stage of EL, actually it could be a little kind of sensation with Spurs at home. But Spurs away destroyed me, no chances.

 

 

Next alarm for changes was in winter friendly games, but I ignored them. I played vs RBL in EL, big opponent, I was scared and tried to win by change my tactic. RBL played 5212 so I used 4231 double DM and... lose 3-0 away  No chances for comeback. Next game and I lose 2-3 in Russian Cup, Rubin away. TIME FOR CHANGES

 

• As before I change LOE depending on game's context
• TI which I used sometimes - Tighter Marking, Get stuck in (very careful, actually I have no red cards in this season ), More urgent (vs small opponents where this is no possible to play in counter attacks, rarely option), shoot on sight (rarely)
• I wrote about FB and changes there are. So I still play 
  so it could be better to use Ayrton as FB(s), not FB(a), this is more productive to use him in stages 1 and 2, not 3. + he use crosses too in support duty. The same things, risk is lower, profit 
  RB is FB(d) because other part of right flank is attacking anyway. 
• AnchorMan -> DM. A is good role, I tried to reproduce Makelele in Chelsea. But at first he played more agressive too, and second, I avoided DM when I used positive mentality, but in balanced this is fine. More life in the area
• CM(a) -> MEZ. I'm proud this switch  CM(a) was helpful sometimes, but I used him more for marking opposite DLP ^_^ 
  Mez is very interfering role for opposite team. One of my favouirite for any style

At first, opposite DM/CM(d)/BWM is losing position to marking him or MEZ is free. His positions are very promising to make direct passing in box area.

 

 

Yes, I have a point of dependence, because MEZ is very effective to busting attacks, but at first - try to block him, at second - I play fluid counter - I just use direct passing and what you will do?

 

When you focus attention for my MEZ, your attention is lower in some other areas

 

And MEZ is more useful from deeper positions than CM(a)

 

Already classic goal by the third partner

 

Well, you take the point  

Urunov stats for prev and current season. Not sure about possibility to check only second half of season

 

Updated tactic at work (RBL home and later) :

 

And, second attempt only, but the champion!

 

Difference (prev season - current season)

• Goals for 56-60
• Goals away 16-13
• Points 66-75

I have 0 draws (have no idea how it possible) and 5 loses, and 2 of them - clear managers (TI) fails. Learn by proccess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I have 13 AG in 30 games - 0.43 per game! Honestly this was a more important for me than points 

Two my players are best strikers

 

Exactly what I wanted - less chances, but more % finishing of them. I guess positive mentality had a burst which I really dont need, balanced mentality is mix of speed and smart, in this specific case at least

 

Possession btw

 

Raise a glass for counter football  

Thank you for attention and for your comments, its very inspires  

Edited January 2, 2021 by Novem9

[Riziger]

Good read, I'm playing at much lower level but will use some of your ideas

[afailed10]

Excellent stuff once again, building on last year's 442! 

Em 03/01/2021 em 03:38, Riziger disse:

Good read, I'm playing at much lower level but will use some of your ideas

I'm also more into this style of play but I found it too difficult while managing in the 4th division. It just pays off to be more proactive and get the ball to stay in the opposition half since mistakes happen very often.

You need good mental attributes to pull this off effectively and good forwards to be dangerous on their own.

[Novem9]

1 час назад, afailed10 сказал:

Excellent stuff once again, building on last year's 442! 

 

not sure that understood this

 

1 час назад, afailed10 сказал:

I'm also more into this style of play but I found it too difficult while managing in the 4th division. It just pays off to be more proactive and get the ball to stay in the opposition half since mistakes happen very often.

 

I have save by Perugia in 3th Italian division, there are players have a troubles to passing for closer players. So yes, own players are bad, but opposite not better, so..

[afailed10]

36 minutos atrás, Novem9 disse:

 

not sure that understood this

 

I have save by Perugia in 3th Italian division, there are players have a troubles to passing for closer players. So yes, own players are bad, but opposite not better, so..

The Lobanovsky 442 direct counter thread isn't yours? my apologies then. It was my favorite tactical thread of last year. 

Regarding the lower league suitability yes, you have a point but i wasn't successful and buying players wasn't an option. Sometimes I'd suffer a goal from a corner and i had difficulties recovering a goal down. I was also suffering a lot lf balls over the top in a default dline and balanced mentality. Getting lower than that gave them too much initiative and eventually conceded goals. As i said, my players are very poor, so it's better to be solid in the middle and keep pressure on the opposition. 

[Novem9]

1 час назад, afailed10 сказал:

I was also suffering a lot lf balls over the top in a default dline and balanced mentality

Tbh searching of relevant mentality is the worst part for me  My fm-life would be simpler if we have just one mentality and deep PI
I check cautious mentality + more urgent and both lines are deeper and this is so not obvious

[Novem9]

I think to start a new save for new experiements. I'm interested to check pragmatic styles with 3CB, 442, etc.

Save by Spartak started to be a routine, national league is 8 place by UEFA rating and I can't improve my squad despite my balance is 140 mln euro. Maybe I will play few seasons more later, but until 21.3 I want to continue research some things  

One question was opened and it was very interesting for me. And I decided to share answer in this thread too, I believe few members will be curious to see too. Even if no, it will be look more finished anyway.

Question is - 'How it feels in Champions League?' Answer - pretty spry  

 

Another note which I want to share for discussion - attributes. I was sceptical about this, like 'if tactic is good, it must works anyway!'. 

But I have a new CB (Roman) in 3th season. Lets compare him with CB (Filip) which I bought season before:

I marked by red line attributes which better for Roman and which as I can see, are important in cases when opposite team have attack after attack. Uremovic is good for more balanced games, where defence could to catch breath.

It always could be placebo factor, but I started to believe (just after watch many games with them in pragmatic style) that looks like even 1 point for an attribute has a difference, sometimes smaller, sometimes key importance. So this is really interesting to collect suitable players. I was worried about Roman's decision is 10, but so far this is enough for his duties.

 

Cheers!

Edited January 4, 2021 by Novem9