Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[gggfunk]

1 hour ago, Zachary Whyte said:

Hello @gggfunk

Can you please create a support ticket with the link below.

https://fmofficial.support/Ticket

Thanks, but I already reinstalled the game and deleted all the files, including my saves. Will get back to you if the issue comes back.

[NineCloudNine]

40 minutes ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ahhh thats it must be my tactics ,after all these years i never knew that 

It’s great to hear you’ve got there in the end! 

[Jack Joyce]

3 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

With the NCB, we didn't lose our heavy possession numbers haha (also showing with the right set-up and in the right league, you can fully take control of possession in a nice set-up/system).

However, we can see a little drop, compared to our midfield, with the defence passing %. Partly down to the NCB?

 

Now, our BPD has attempted 102 passes. Is this further backing up the BPD tactical freedom claim? or even reduced tactical freedom for the NCB? Possibly both haha

but there is a significant drop in passes attempted with the NCB. He also has a lower passing %. Mostly because with the limited times he does receive the ball, he looks for that long pass as we are operating with a higher tempo. Get that ball from back to front quickly. 

I get that, maybe, the role itself should override instructions. So regardless, NCB is to hoof the ball. But I also believe you should be able to manage the frequency and balance the risk. One great way is to understand *better* the mentality/risk-taking

Don't get much time to respond to things on the forums recently - but just wanted to say this is a really interesting discussion so thanks for all your thoughts on the CB roles. It's great food for thought.

 

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ahhh thats it must be my tactics ,after all these years i never knew that 

Ahh that's it must be the game because I'm having an issue...

Yes. There is a tactical issue causing your world-class striker to not score goals.

If you can't get world-class strikers Haaland, Mbappe, Osimhen, Vlahovic...to score goals in FM24 then I don't think anyone here would disagree in saying that's an isolated thing.

[Ti Ago]

1 hora atrás, RDF Tactics disse:

Ahh that's it must be the game because I'm having an issue...

Yes. There is a tactical issue causing your world-class striker to not score goals.

If you can't get world-class strikers Haaland, Mbappe, Osimhen, Vlahovic...to score goals in FM24 then I don't think anyone here would disagree in saying that's an isolated thing.

My Emegha scored almost 50 and I'm not that good tactician. Just got a good cohesive team

Edited March 5 by Ti Ago

[XaW]

5 hours ago, Bielsa1975 said:

Ahhh thats it must be my tactics ,after all these years i never knew that 

Here is how my striker fared the first season and so far the new one in a higher tier.

So yes, it's your tactics.

You can open a post in here asking for help, and perhaps someone can guide and help you learn how to set up a tactic in FM that works as you want it to. It's never too late to learn! 

[kiingallen]

THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN. Done.

Spoiler

HOWWW?!

Edited March 6 by kiingallen

[zeza]

Em 29/02/2024 em 19:09, zeza disse:

So it seems like SI didn't fix Scouting at all, even with our 3 month thread explaining what was going on and what the problem was.

But all we got was answers like these ones: Congrats SI! 

: E

 

And we didn't even get a "Fixed" comment in the thread as Zachary did with a whole bunch of them, so it seems that they ignored it completely. 

No response at all. NICE

[skog]

Is this a bug? 

[NineCloudNine]

54 minutes ago, skog said:

Is this a bug? 

It's weird, but sorta makes sense - you did well and they are pleased, but you're not the best in the country so you failed the objective. Could do with some tidying up for sure - one of 351 little things (I've counted!) in the game which kinda work but could do with some polishing.

[skog]

7 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It's weird, but sorta makes sense - you did well and they are pleased, but you're not the best in the country so you failed the objective. Could do with some tidying up for sure - one of 351 little things (I've counted!) in the game which kinda work but could do with some polishing.

That was how I interpreted it, or at least how the optimist in me chose to interpret it. Thanks!

I'm now sat here trying to decide if 'reasonable' or 'fairly strong' for non-preferred foot is better...

[The About Average Jake]

2 hours ago, kiingallen said:

THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN. Done.

 

HOWWW?!

I think we've all experienced this in FM24. Within the code it's probably a foul and penalty kick but unfortunately the animations within the ME aren't always running in unison. 

 

It's extremely frustrating, but I've had it go my way before as well. 

[kiingallen]

2 minutes ago, The About Average Jake said:

I think we've all experienced this in FM24. Within the code it's probably a foul and penalty kick but unfortunately the animations within the ME aren't always running in unison. 

 

It's extremely frustrating, but I've had it go my way before as well. 

That far outside of the penalty area? And the fact that it was “checked” retrospectively and justified. It wasn’t even close. 
If that’s the “representation” of what’s happening “under the hood”, then it actually deems the ME pointless in my honest opinion. 
it’s not even close. 

[NineCloudNine]

12 minutes ago, kiingallen said:

That far outside of the penalty area? And the fact that it was “checked” retrospectively and justified. It wasn’t even close. 
If that’s the “representation” of what’s happening “under the hood”, then it actually deems the ME pointless in my honest opinion. 
it’s not even close. 

It's more likely that the ME got it right but the ancient graphics engine got it wrong. Was there commentary or any press conference questions about it? Borderline decisions usually get noted by one or the other. If not, what you've seen is a graphics glitch. Or, just write it off as the sort of mistake every manager has to deal with sometimes IRL.

[kiingallen]

1 minute ago, NineCloudNine said:

It's more likely that the ME got it right but the ancient graphics engine got it wrong. Was there commentary or any press conference questions about it? Borderline decisions usually get noted by one or the other. If not, what you've seen is a graphics glitch. Or, just write it off as the sort of mistake every manager has to deal with sometimes IRL.

Just “saved & exit” - didn’t bother continuing further after that. I Weren’t really enjoying the game even before this, but after seeing that, just decided enough was enough for me personally and decided to hang up the tactics board on this game. 
 

[southside]

I usually scoff when people mention too many injuries, but ive started a man utd save after the update and something is definetly changed, my players are dropping like flies and a lot lf long term

[g1nh0]

37 minutes ago, kiingallen said:

Just “saved & exit” - didn’t bother continuing further after that. I Weren’t really enjoying the game even before this, but after seeing that, just decided enough was enough for me personally and decided to hang up the tactics board on this game. 
 

The trigger for me stopping with this year's game / ME was after running a test in neutralising a gegenpress 4231 system.

I was establishing a base on the latest patch to see if much changed, used Man City as the home team and Liverpool as the away. With equal settings given (player condition / an identical 4231 tactic / set pieces etc), after half a dozen tests, one scoreline was shockingly unrealistic.  Shame I didn't think about saving the pkm, but I had the same reaction - I just turned off the game and that was enough, as there's no way I can play a serious game on FM24 with the game churning out such rubbish.

The scoreline was Man City 10 - 0 Liverpool. (no red cards or anything like that) This suggests to me that there's definitely a major flaw with how this game is calculating things, because this is a scoreline you should never see if you were to run this infinite times with these two closely contested teams.

Edited March 5 by g1nh0

[Davienene]

6 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

The trigger for me stopping with this year's game / ME was after running a test in neutralising a gegenpress 4231 system.

I was establishing a base on the latest patch to see if much changed, used Man City as the home team and Liverpool as the away. With equal settings given (player condition / an identical 4231 tactic / set pieces etc), after half a dozen tests, one scoreline was shockingly unrealistic.  Shame I didn't think about saving the pkm, but I had the same reaction - I just turned off the game and that was enough, as there's no way I can play a serious game on FM24 with the game churning out such rubbish.

The scoreline was Man City 10 - 0 Liverpool. (no red cards or anything like that) This suggests to me that there's definitely a major flaw with how this game is calculating things, because this is a scoreline you should never see if you were to run this infinite times with these two closely contested teams.

I mean last season Lpool were struggling a bit like united at some point and won 7-0 against them, I think I understand what yous saying but i'd never say never in football

[g1nh0]

2 minutes ago, Davienene said:

I mean last season Lpool were struggling a bit like united at some point and won 7-0 against them, I think I understand what yous saying but i'd never say never in football

Oh I don't doubt you can get some high scoring games unexpected. But that's United, who are rubbish, and Man City who are not.

I would expect to see a 6-0 scoreline on the very odd occasion at worst. Not double figures to nil.

Edited March 5 by g1nh0

[Davienene]

4 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Oh I don't doubt you can get some high scoring games unexpected. But that's United, who are rubbish, and Man City who are not.

I would expect to see a 6-0 scoreline on the very odd occasion at worst. Not double figures to nil.

fair enough

[kiingallen]

5 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

Oh I don't doubt you can get some high scoring games unexpected. But that's United, who are rubbish, and Man City who are not.

I would expect to see a 6-0 scoreline on the very odd occasion at worst. Not double figures to nil.

10-0 is a very extreme scoreline considering I don’t think that’s ever happened in the premier division. And even more extreme at such a low number of rolls. Theres a lot of variables, but assuming you weren’t intentionally trying to “break” the game. 

[g1nh0]

1 minute ago, kiingallen said:

10-0 is a very extreme scoreline considering I don’t think that’s ever happened in the premier division. And even more extreme at such a low number of rolls. Theres a lot of variables, but assuming you weren’t intentionally trying to “break” the game. 

As I said, I was simply using a 4231 identical gegenpress tactic (both teams used the exact same one), to ascertain what sort of scorelines would be produced with two teams of pretty much identical quality and suitability to employ such a system. 

[Nick_CB]

This information is not true. The DLP does not go left to double pivot with the IWB. He is always looking to participate in a play and occupies space on the right and center.
With a DM I had success to form defensive double pivot with IWB

Edited March 6 by Nick_CB

[whatsupdoc]

We've been playing our 8 player network game with low crosses banned and focus out wide banned. It's made a huge difference in toning down the meta systems. Much more enjoyable. 

Also set pieces delegated.

Edited March 6 by whatsupdoc

[RDF Tactics]

8 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

Oh I don't doubt you can get some high scoring games unexpected. But that's United, who are rubbish, and Man City who are not.

I would expect to see a 6-0 scoreline on the very odd occasion at worst. Not double figures to nil.

Just playing devil's advocate (not against your post). I agree 10-0 is very extreme…

but what was the expectation from these tests? If you were to test something many times, you’d likely get an outlier and possibly an extreme result.

Just my opinion, I wouldn’t want FM to read a code on ME and be like “oh this would never happen IRL” because it’s supposed to be getting information from the game. Replicating IRL to a tee would never allow us to create stories. Some of us should never ever reach UCL with a national league side…etc etc. It has to create its own story so to speak. From those tests, one team rightly should have an off day…Though, again I agree, 10-0 is VERY an extreme result and the quality of the LFC players, that shouldn’t happen.

I’ll be totally honest with you, I’ve done many of seasons (1 season tactical tests/experiments) and I have never seen a 10-0 score line. Anyone getting discouraged from it, I personally wouldn’t because it’s highly unlikely you’ll see that result.

I think the highest scores I’ve seen is 7-2, which admittedly, I see too often. Especially in South Africa. It’s every other week. Or you’ll see Newcastle beat Brentford 7-2 one weekend.

Trying to get to the route of that “issue”, I personally find there's a lot to do with keepers  when I wake up properly, I will share some screenshots of xGA. In my league, only one or two teams are in positive out of 18 or so teams. So 16 teams aren’t performing well with xGA, and keepers are struggling to prevent goals.

Edit: I'm awake haha 

So here is the xG table in my current season in South Africa. Only 2 teams performing positively when it comes to xGA.

That then results in everyone but two over-performing their xG. There's only one team who are neutral and one team under-performing. 

Spoiler

 

Edited March 6 by RDF Tactics

[kiwityke1983]

4 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

This information is not true. The DLP does not go left to double pivot with the IWB. He is always looking to participate in a play and occupies space on the right and center.
With a DM I had success to form defensive double pivot with IWB

I think this is because the DLP is by design sucked towards the ball as a playmaker.

Probably better to change that role to a DMC or an Anchor if you want them to move acros.

That's my understanding anyway.

[XaW]

19 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

So here is the xG table in my current season in South Africa. Only 2 teams performing positively when it comes to xGA.

I experienced the exact same thing when I played in South Africa for many seasons, but I don't see the same in other leagues I've played. This is the current season in the 2nd tier of Norway for example.

Granted, we're only 10 matches into the season, but the trend so far is that it's mixed in a way that seems reasonable to me.

I have no idea why some leagues differ so much from the xGA when others are reasonable though...

[RDF Tactics]

And here are two other xG tables from other tactical saves I have. All the same/similar story in terms of many teams underperforming at preventing goals.

For small reference. Currently, in the EPL, 12 teams are over-performing their xGA and only 10 teams over-performing on their xG.

Last season in EPL ended with 14 teams over-performing their xGA.

So to me, goalkeepers aren't doing near well enough in preventing goals in Football Manager 2024.

- When watching (and I'm a goalkeeper haha), their reactions to things are very slow. Especially long-range drives - they're slow to react and often the ball creeps under the goalkeeper.

- Their reach seems to be not good enough, too. Almost like their arms are permanently bent and can't fully stretch out - results in shots that aren't well in the corner still going in.

- One thing we're told is do your best to not get beat at your near post. Keepers do get beaten there but 99% because of an very powerful shot almost impossible to save but in FM, keepers are beaten to easily at the near post.

- Sweeper actions. Teams playing a higher line with Sweeper Keeper can concede goals because Sweeper Keeping actions aren't visible in game. Long balls over the top are often met by an unchallenged forward who has time to slot the ball in. The keeper *should* be coming out. If not out of the box, then close the angle for the attacker. Shouldn't apply to every keeper of course, but we have "rushing out" attribute which seems to be pretty much pointless as we don't get sweeping actions.

- Not really Goalkeepers fault, but the distribution of defenders inside the box also effects the visions/sight of the goalkeeper. It's often crowded and the ball can find ways of travelling through bodies without keeper being able to react.

Over technical stuff (more animation stuff).

- Keepers are very flat-footed which doesn't look good on the keepers on the ME. Being on toes would look like my keeper is ready. Whether this has an effect on keepers struggling to go low from long-shots...no idea. But animation-wise, it can be better.

- (moving away from the point and just jotting ideas) Keepers with good communication should be seen organising defenders (shouting/pointing). Again, letting us now he's using that attribute.

- Quick feet/change of direction. Example, if a cross has looped over the keeper, often in FM they stay routed to that spot. Rather than organising their feet and re-positioning themselves to then deal with the next action rather than caught in no mans land.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[RDF Tactics]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

I experienced the exact same thing when I played in South Africa for many seasons, but I don't see the same in other leagues I've played. This is the current season in the 2nd tier of Norway for example.

Granted, we're only 10 matches into the season, but the trend so far is that it's mixed in a way that seems reasonable to me.

I have no idea why some leagues differ so much from the xGA when others are reasonable though...

I just posted two other xG tables from Championship and League Two and it's all the same for me.

This is in Italy, with two different teams (different saves). Really, there should only be a few overperforming their xG with the majority also overperforming their xGA

Only 6 teams in Serie A last season overperformed on their xG. So this, imo, is something they could look at. There's likely to be a lot more too it, but I've put it more simply down to the goalkeepers.

The average save % in Serie A last season IRL was 71%. In comparison, it's fairly similar but I think in FM the quality of chances is generally higher, for balance, the keeper can/should do better at preventing. 

Spoiler

Spoiler

I mentioned it earlier, about the crowded box. I see many instances, especially from throw-ins, where the keeper's view is constantly blocked. This image here, the xG actually isn't high but at the same time, there's no way you'd expect the keeper to save the ball going through 2/3 bodies.
 

Spoiler

Same game. Also from throw-in but for a different team. There tends to be players directly in front of the keeper's sight which would make these sort of chances VERY difficult to save.

Both images the keeper is flat-footed too (nothing to do with performance, just an animation thing I'd love to see added). 
But also mentioned about adjusting feet. Keeper could also adjust his feet to get a better sight. But again, for animations.

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

I just posted two other xG tables from Championship and League Two and it's all the same for me.

This is in Italy, with two different teams (different saves). Really, there should only be a few overperforming their xG with the majority also overperforming their xGA

Only 6 teams in Serie A last season overperformed on their xG. So this, imo, is something they could look at. There's likely to be a lot more too it, but I've put it more simply down to the goalkeepers.

The average save % in Serie A last season IRL was 71%. In comparison, it's fairly similar but I think in FM the quality of chances is generally higher, for balance, the keeper can/should do better at preventing. 

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

I mentioned it earlier, about the crowded box. I see many instances, especially from throw-ins, where the keeper's view is constantly blocked. This image here, the xG actually isn't high but at the same time, there's no way you'd expect the keeper to save the ball going through 2/3 bodies.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Same game. Also from throw-in but for a different team. There tends to be players directly in front of the keeper's sight which would make these sort of chances VERY difficult to save.

Both images the keeper is flat-footed too (nothing to do with performance, just an animation thing I'd love to see added). 
But also mentioned about adjusting feet. Keeper could also adjust his feet to get a better sight. But again, for animations.

Oh, I'm not saying there is an issue there, and all cases of it should be reported to SI for investigation. My point was that I see it in some leagues and not others (as I showed above), so I'm not entirely sure it's isolated to the match engine itself. It could be, and this is pure speculation from me, that how the manager preferene is set up in different countries (or leagues, really), can highlight or cover this depending on how you see it.

[RDF Tactics]

Here, we can see the keeper's position from when the cross came in...
 

Spoiler

Knowing the ball with be travelling past him, he does not attempt to sort his feet out and reorganise his body. Instead, stays rooted to the same spot. The striker now has an open goal. The keeper then attempts to save the ball from where he's standing, which, he's never ever going to get to.

Watching that as a keeper, admittedly, is hard - I almost want to put my kit on, jump in the Match Engine and put myself in goal  They just don't seem as reactive as strikers in terms of recognising situations, changing body angles, quick changes of movements etc.

Spoiler

 

 

[RDF Tactics]

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

Oh, I'm not saying there is an issue there, and all cases of it should be reported to SI for investigation. My point was that I see it in some leagues and not others (as I showed above), so I'm not entirely sure it's isolated to the match engine itself. It could be, and this is pure speculation from me, that how the manager preferene is set up in different countries (or leagues, really), can highlight or cover this depending on how you see it.

Different leagues for sure play a role. South Africa has some extreme results but I'm not sure if that's also down to the quality between certain teams. La Liga is where I started taking goalkeeper notes - managing Barca, we'd score certain goals that forced me to look at the opposition goalkeeper.

I have no idea if this is partly why some goals goal in Football Manager. No idea about coding etc.

But here's my player taking a long shot. The ball has now travelled and the keeper still isn't reacting or sorting his feet and hands out to save the shot. He's dead middle in the goal and not shifting over to the corner when the ball is going. The shot doesn't end right in the corner but because of late reaction, it goes straight passed him.

Spoiler

As the ball and keeper meet (sort of), the keeper is now nowhere near it. It's a very saveable shot - weren't in the corner or too powerful. He was just late to react but also his arms not stretched.

Stays rooted to the same spot and doesn't sort his feet to shift over to both save the ball and see the ball (though he had full sight).

The height of the ball makes it more of a shot he should be saving. Weren't in the top corner or bottom corner. It's a perfect height for keepers but due to bad positioning, it'll go in.

Maybe it's just a visual representation thing - as commentary also says he rifled a low shot but it's fairly high-mid.

Spoiler

 

[kiwityke1983]

Only 4 teams in the EPL in real life are underscoring XG.

So it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

[g1nh0]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

Just playing devil's advocate (not against your post). I agree 10-0 is very extreme…

but what was the expectation from these tests? If you were to test something many times, you’d likely get an outlier and possibly an extreme result.

Just my opinion, I wouldn’t want FM to read a code on ME and be like “oh this would never happen IRL” because it’s supposed to be getting information from the game. Replicating IRL to a tee would never allow us to create stories. Some of us should never ever reach UCL with a national league side…etc etc. It has to create its own story so to speak. From those tests, one team rightly should have an off day…Though, again I agree, 10-0 is VERY an extreme result and the quality of the LFC players, that shouldn’t happen.

I’ll be totally honest with you, I’ve done many of seasons (1 season tactical tests/experiments) and I have never seen a 10-0 score line. Anyone getting discouraged from it, I personally wouldn’t because it’s highly unlikely you’ll see that result.

I think the highest scores I’ve seen is 7-2, which admittedly, I see too often. Especially in South Africa. It’s every other week. Or you’ll see Newcastle beat Brentford 7-2 one weekend.

Trying to get to the route of that “issue”, I personally find there's a lot to do with keepers  when I wake up properly, I will share some screenshots of xGA. In my league, only one or two teams are in positive out of 18 or so teams. So 16 teams aren’t performing well with xGA, and keepers are struggling to prevent goals.

Edit: I'm awake haha 

So here is the xG table in my current season in South Africa. Only 2 teams performing positively when it comes to xGA.

That then results in everyone but two over-performing their xG. There's only one team who are neutral and one team under-performing. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

As above, I was looking to gauge how the engine was generating results, whilst looking to try and create an approach to try and nullify a 4231 gegenpress system on this year's version (given it has been so overpowered). So to get a baseline as to how the identical tactic and approach would function, these two teams seemed highly suitable using City at the home side, with Liverpool as the away (and probably more suited to employing this system).

With the squad's very even I was expecting ofc the home side to have an advantage and not lose the majority of these games. (City actually won every one of the games comfortable which I also wasn't most amused with - in addition to this 10-0 heavy scoreline).

At that point, I'd then have a baseline to then adjust the approach as the away team, to see whether the exact same formation applied would be an effective way of neutralising the home side's aggressive approach at home (I would usually use a 433 to do this). I had already seen some huge scorelines on the old patch with sides playing each other using the same 4231 identical formation, so I wanted to see if anything had actually changed at all (SI don't always disclose ME changes I believe in patch notes).

I had hoped there may have been some improvement on the defensive side of the game (recall you making a  post emphasising this side of the ME really needs working on, which I fully agreed with), but sadly it seems to have gotten worse, just by the simple fact that imo, such a scoreline of double figures shouldn't ever happen with these two closely matched teams, and in any one single simulation. So I immediately came to the conclusion that no improvements had been attempted to be made at all from the last patch as shown in their notes, and so I've decided that I won't waste my time further playing this particular version of FM as I simply wouldn't enjoy playing on an engine that can simulate such a result.

A shame i didn't save a pkm and that I just turned the game off immediately, as that would have been good for reference. I was simply annoyed that a game I've loved for many year's that after showing signs of real improvement last year on the realism front, for me this year it has taken a significant backwards step.

And in order for this game to actually move forwards, totally agree the whole defensive aspect of this game MUST be worked on, both on improving the realism front and to be able to implement more defensive strategies effectively.

I still just don't understand how it has gone backwards from last year tbh, because from the large game time I had on the last patch of that, it was the most realistic and challenging version that was recently made. But I can only assume the development of positional play being implemented into this year's game has simply made implementing defending effectively harder to compensate, at least on a consistent and reliable basis where such unrealistic scores shouldn't be feasible to be generated, at least in this profile of a game as exampled above.

Edited March 6 by g1nh0

[Zoolok42]

14 hours ago, XaW said:

Here is how my striker fared the first season and so far the new one in a higher tier.

So yes, it's your tactics.

You can open a post in here asking for help, and perhaps someone can guide and help you learn how to set up a tactic in FM that works as you want it to. It's never too late to learn! 

How do you know it's not your tactics, meaning how do you know you aren't really using an exploit by accident, instead of having a working tactic? I am not pointing fingers, but I was always curious about these "it's your tactics" arguments in a game that is known to have tactical exploits against AI.

[XaW]

Just now, Zoolok42 said:

How do you know it's not your tactics, meaning how do you know you aren't really using an exploit by accident, instead of having a working tactic? I am not pointing fingers, but I was always curious about these "it's your tactics" arguments in a game that is known to have tactical exploits against AI.

Well, I've been using the same tactic (with small variations) since FM17, and I don't do anything crazy with it. I have 1 PI and only a few TIs. I've posted it on various places here on the forums earlier (including the linked thread back in FM17) so you could probably find it if you want to try it. But I tweak it ever so slightly to fit the players every game, and I also change it up in every game to fit the ebb and flow of it.

That said, I can't know for sure I don't exploit something, but if I am, it's accidental as well as strange that something very basic would be able to do so. I mean, this isn't exactly a crazy setup in any way, and I doubt I'm the only one trying something like this.

[RDF Tactics]

2 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Only 4 teams in the EPL in real life are underscoring XG.

So it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

We're looking at xGA. In FM, in the Leeds shot, you can see all but 2 teams are underperforming their xGA.

And the point is that it's a similar story everywhere. You pointed out one league when I posted various. Clearly, there are more goals in the Championship. But unreasonable when it's a similar story in every league. 

[RDF Tactics]

23 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Only 4 teams in the EPL in real life are underscoring XG.

So it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

8 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

We're looking at xGA. In FM, in the Leeds shot, you can see all but 2 teams are underperforming their xGA.

And the point is that it's a similar story everywhere. You pointed out one league when I posted various. Clearly, there are more goals in the Championship. But unreasonable when it's a similar story in every league. 

Example being...

Two separate Serie A saves. In terms of teams underperforming xGA, the two are similar. Double digits in terms of positive xGA. Half, or less, are in positive on FM in both saves.

I'm not going down the route "but IRL this and that". It's just a reference. My observation which then falls down to keepers rather than claiming xG is broken. But also take not of the difference between some teams xGA and how many they are underperforming by.

Maybe people are in agreement keepers can improve a lot. Or maybe thats just me lol.

Edited March 6 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

20 minutes ago, g1nh0 said:

As above, I was looking to gauge how the engine was generating results, whilst looking to try and create an approach to try and nullify a 4231 gegenpress system on this year's version (given it has been so overpowered). So to get a baseline as to how the identical tactic and approach would function, these two teams seemed highly suitable using City at the home side, with Liverpool as the away (and probably more suited to employing this system).

With the squad's very even I was expecting ofc the home side to have an advantage and not lose the majority of these games. (City actually won every one of the games comfortable which I also wasn't most amused with - in addition to this 10-0 heavy scoreline).

At that point, I'd then have a baseline to then adjust the approach as the away team, to see whether the exact same formation applied would be an effective way of neutralising the home side's aggressive approach at home (I would usually use a 433 to do this). I had already seen some huge scorelines on the old patch with sides playing each other using the same 4231 identical formation, so I wanted to see if anything had actually changed at all (SI don't always disclose ME changes I believe in patch notes).

I had hoped there may have been some improvement on the defensive side of the game (recall you making a  post emphasising this side of the ME really needs working on, which I fully agreed with), but sadly it seems to have gotten worse, just by the simple fact that imo, such a scoreline of double figures shouldn't ever happen with these two closely matched teams, and in any one single simulation. So I immediately came to the conclusion that no improvements had been attempted to be made at all from the last patch as shown in their notes, and so I've decided that I won't waste my time further playing this particular version of FM as I simply wouldn't enjoy playing on an engine that can simulate such a result.

A shame i didn't save a pkm and that I just turned the game off immediately, as that would have been good for reference. I was simply annoyed that a game I've loved for many year's that after showing signs of real improvement last year on the realism front, for me this year it has taken a significant backwards step.

And in order for this game to actually move forwards, totally agree the whole defensive aspect of this game MUST be worked on, both on improving the realism front and to be able to implement more defensive strategies effectively.

I still just don't understand how it has gone backwards from last year tbh, because from the large game time I had on the last patch of that, it was the most realistic and challenging version that was recently made. But I can only assume the development of positional play being implemented into this year's game has simply made implementing defending effectively harder to compensate, at least on a consistent and reliable basis where such unrealistic scores shouldn't be feasible to be generated, at least in this profile of a game as exampled above.

I think City winning 10 out of 10 is a problem in itself. Unless LFC really dislike a 4-2-3-1 which I can see being the case haha

And trust me, you're not alone in the disappointment with FM24. I think as a consumer, I'm at a point of high expectations (mostly put on because of SI themselves). With positional play, I was extremely excited and I still like it now, but it made me more sceptical about the defensive side of things. In FM23 for example, I found the off-the-ball marking not ideal. So, then adding positional play on top, I was wondering how teams off the ball would deal with such movements. "how will my CM deal with tracking a B2B back who then joins their AMC to make 2 AMs".

So with FM24, it has just been a year, so far, of tactical experiments etc. This upsets me as I love to play saves (I'd be lying if I said I don't enjoy creating tactics, though), stream my saves and stuff but as a content creator, I struggle to stream and create content on FM this year because no saves really grips me for multiple reasons. I tried a long term save with a Level 12 side and by 3 seasons, I was done with it (could be partly down to how I play the game anyway). I feel left in the dark with many things too - especially when it comes to data in game so even tutorial/guide videos become increasingly more difficult to do without giving out misinformation. I have already because FM doesn't explain certain metrics so I took my own idea which turned out to be wrong.

Stripping back that expectation though, FM is still very much a playable game. FM24 is the best one yet for some. Miles, in my opinion, didn't help with his "most polished version". And then with the promise of better communication. That got my hopes up and it didn't HAVE to be completely true. But I do feel (just my opinion), it's not close to the most polished. And certain things should've been communicated (after making the promise). Some mentioned it was for marketing - but when you're extremely passionate about a product, you'll believe in it regardless.

One thing about this forum, it's filled with passionate FM players.

[g1nh0]

9 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

I think City winning 10 out of 10 is a problem in itself. Unless LFC really dislike a 4-2-3-1 which I can see being the case haha

And trust me, you're not alone in the disappointment with FM24. I think as a consumer, I'm at a point of high expectations (mostly put on because of SI themselves). With positional play, I was extremely excited and I still like it now, but it made me more sceptical about the defensive side of things. In FM23 for example, I found the off-the-ball marking not ideal. So, then adding positional play on top, I was wondering how teams off the ball would deal with such movements. "how will my CM deal with tracking a B2B back who then joins their AMC to make 2 AMs".

So with FM24, it has just been a year, so far, of tactical experiments etc. This upsets me as I love to play saves (I'd be lying if I said I don't enjoy creating tactics, though), stream my saves and stuff but as a content creator, I struggle to stream and create content on FM this year because no saves really grips me for multiple reasons. I tried a long term save with a Level 12 side and by 3 seasons, I was done with it (could be partly down to how I play the game anyway). I feel left in the dark with many things too - especially when it comes to data in game so even tutorial/guide videos become increasingly more difficult to do without giving out misinformation. I have already because FM doesn't explain certain metrics so I took my own idea which turned out to be wrong.

Stripping back that expectation though, FM is still very much a playable game. FM24 is the best one yet for some. Miles, in my opinion, didn't help with his "most polished version". And then with the promise of better communication. That got my hopes up and it didn't HAVE to be completely true. But I do feel (just my opinion), it's not close to the most polished. And certain things should've been communicated (after making the promise). Some mentioned it was for marketing - but when you're extremely passionate about a product, you'll believe in it regardless.

One thing about this forum, it's filled with passionate FM players.

I'm very similar as well tbh, most of my enjoyment comes from tactics and having a good degree of challenge in a save, but for me a high degree of realism is a very important element for me to get immersed into the game. 

Yes I guess it is playable - but probably for those players where this realism isn't so important, but what is more important is being able to fulfill their own save fantasy. (Which this year's game given it's lack of both difficulty and realism, gives the perfect conditions). In the same way, for someone in my boat, it's probably the most frustrating version of FM in an extremely long time. That especially when naturally, in this respect you expect a progression and not a regression.

The only hope one can have, is that it is a one off case of this year's being a step back, to make two steps forward where the next logical step to improve the ME is to actually focus on the defensive side, which would definitely increase the chances of resolving more of the major flaws that currently exist.

But sadly I just can't see this happening for next year's game, especially where set pieces need a good amount of attending to as well since it's new introduction. But perhaps in a couple of years time I would hope there would be a good improvement (which is why I won't invest in next year's game, but fingers crossed FM26 may deliver a better overall experience and likely be a more polished version of FM25).

[Zoolok42]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Well, I've been using the same tactic (with small variations) since FM17, and I don't do anything crazy with it. I have 1 PI and only a few TIs. I've posted it on various places here on the forums earlier (including the linked thread back in FM17) so you could probably find it if you want to try it. But I tweak it ever so slightly to fit the players every game, and I also change it up in every game to fit the ebb and flow of it.

That said, I can't know for sure I don't exploit something, but if I am, it's accidental as well as strange that something very basic would be able to do so. I mean, this isn't exactly a crazy setup in any way, and I doubt I'm the only one trying something like this.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The point I tried to make is that "it's your tactics" is not a valid argument in a game that has tactical exploits because AI can't handle it. The thing is, issues with tactics go both ways, so someone can setup a perfectly valid tactic and then fail in the game because the "exploit" is working against them in this case, if you know what I mean? It's not always the case, but I don't think anyone can guarantee that it can be completely disregarded either.

[XaW]

13 minutes ago, Zoolok42 said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The point I tried to make is that "it's your tactics" is not a valid argument in a game that has tactical exploits because AI can't handle it. The thing is, issues with tactics go both ways, so someone can setup a perfectly valid tactic and then fail in the game because the "exploit" is working against them in this case, if you know what I mean? It's not always the case, but I don't think anyone can guarantee that it can be completely disregarded either.

Of course no one can guarantee it, outside SI of course. But the managers in game have a limited set of instructions and setups they use, and SI have run enough tests to know that the AI don't exploit. If a player has created a tactic that creates something that the AI exploits, then I'd say that tactic is not structurally sound in general. I mean, you and I can create tactics that don't work and we will lose to worse teams, but that doesn't mean the AI is exploiting it, that just means you have made a poor tactic. And if that happens, you can change it into something that works. The AI can't change into something outside the parameters the game has set for it, so human managers can sometimes exploit it and the AI will be helpless to stop it.

If you have an example of a "perfectly valid" tactic not working (ie losing consistently to teams that are worse) while using suitable players, etc, then I would report that to SI as a possible bug in the bug tracker. Of course, there is a sort of theoretical discussion of what a "perfectly valid" tactic even is. You might have created something you think is valid, but perhaps you have misunderstood what a role or instruction do, so it isn't valid even if you think so. And that's why the "it's your tactics" thing comes about, since quite frankly a lot of these arguments are followed with a tactic that is very poor. And if you complain about the game while having a lunatic tactic, what else can be said than "it's your tactic"? And I don't mean YOU here, but the general "you" of whoever makes the claim, just to be clear.

This do link back to what was said before about a glossary/manual/tutorial/etc that helps the user understand how things work could hopefully help users create sound tactics and remove part of this, if the user is willing to learn, that is.

[NineCloudNine]

The word “exploit” is being used in different ways here.

In normal language it means “take advantage of”, which can be completely legitimate like “exploiting” the space behind your aggressive WBs.

In gaming language it means finding a way to circumvent or overcome game dynamics in a way not intended or anticipated. This isn’t the same as a bug, which is a programming error.

AI managers definitely “exploit” tactical weaknesses but do not discover or use “exploits”.

The grey area arises when some normal game dynamics are so much more powerful than others that their use by either player or AI confers an unreasonable advantage over other systems. I think that’s what posters are getting at when suggesting that the use of gegenpress by AI managers is so powerful that normal “it’s your tactics” advice to players doesn’t always apply, or at least can be insufficient.

Edited March 6 by NineCloudNine

[RDF Tactics]

Crazy because I was literally about to ask what does “exploit” mean in a gaming sense haha 

i was going to say that us and AI should always be looking to exploit. It’s part of football and to win games but obviously, has two different meanings when it comes to gaming/football manager.
 

So I’m guessing an exploit in this convo would be exploiting a tactical fault AI can’t fix? Like the transfer bug, people exploited it. 

[chris72]

will there be another update for match engine? I can no longer play the game the way it is  

[XaW]

Just now, chris72 said:

will there be another update for match engine? I can no longer play the game the way it is  

No one knows. What are your issues with the match engine that makes it so you can't play? I tried to look for bug reports from you, but couldn't see any, so there is no way to know what issues you have.

[chris72]

9 minutes ago, XaW said:

No one knows. What are your issues with the match engine that makes it so you can't play? I tried to look for bug reports from you, but couldn't see any, so there is no way to know what issues you have.

The match engine is very boring and needs to be improved its got worse since last update. everything seems slow and predictable

[LucasBR]

I have a few complaints about the match engine but that’s not the biggest games problem in my opinion

Broken interactions have been happening for a LONG time and we don’t see any movement to change that, only vague promises.

I’m really frustrated to play the game and have to deal with players demanding exorbitant amount of money and a new deal after just one freaking season at the cluB, that includes also youngsters that I place on my squad because I wanted them to train with ‘em complaining with me because I haven’t given the specific player a new contract

For my experience that’s quite game-breaking, I’m not going to mention other things like scouting and international management because some of that can be easily overcome by using others shortlist for example.

 

[andu1]

Wouldnt it be better to have defensive and attacking formations rather than have roles that move to other positions? Or at least have the tactic screen show the positions your players will occupy with certain roles.

I hope that FM 25 revamps the tactical UI screen entirely... Its too old school, and frankly .. ugly

[tropicsafc]

Loads of people moaning about the match engine since the last update. It was untouched wasn't it?