What changed since '18?

[Persephone]

Huge fan of the FM franchise, used to follow every update and used to buy and play every version (and sometimes returned to previous versions, cause I liked them better). Due to a personal crisis in my private life, I haven't been able to keep up with the FM versions.

In fact, I haven't bought a game since FM18. And I'm starting to believe that it's been so long, that it's time to buy a new version. Finally.

But looking up everything that changed since FM'18 is quite a task and surprisingly difficult to completely understand what was a revamp or completely different. Can someone give me a summary about what changed? Is it still the same game? ;)

[Maviarab]

Exactly the same as me, only I didn't buy on principle as nothing really changes, the same bugs exist, the same stuff that annoyed me for years and years still never gets addressed. I used to buy every year (from the very first Champ Man title), then every other year from around '14...then not since '18.   I asked a lot of questions and decided to finally get the new one (23) after such a long absence.  Other than the 'headline features' (lol)...no, nothing has really changed imo...sure match engine is slightly better but hell, they've had what...20 years to actually perfect it by now...and they haven't....

I installed '23 to be greeted by an ad-useage-permission screen which immediately almost made me refund it.  All the same things I referred to in my first sentence...still exist...more pointless fluff added (manager timeline), stuff added that isn't properly implemented, which is uneccessary, uneeded, not wanted nor asked for and all the same issues still apply and they have actually removed some useful things of the past (squad planner).  I'm investing time into it purely to get my money's worth, in the hope by the time the final update comes around (a joke in itself, again, 20 years to perfect the match engine) in March it might actually be a significant improvement, even if I did get it well under retail price.  Personally, stick with '18 which imo, was a pretty solid game and has hundreds upon hundreds of mods available for it already completed.  Typical FM fashion, you pay to beta test the game for them and then have to wait 4 months for them to actually release a proper finished title (though one can/could argue that is par for the course in the entire industry these days, hell, they will probably Kick Start FM25).

tldr:  Am I enjoying the game? As much as most other FM's of the past.  Would I recommend full price...hell no.  If you have a complete '18, '20, '22 with a great save going and all the working mods, edits etc you want....then may as well save your money.  Until they fix all the stuff that's needed fixing for the last 10+ years (and that's not even going into the whole graphics issue), I won't be buying it again anytime soon.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Maviarab

[alian62]

Why dont you just play the demo

[samuelawachie]

@Persephone How is the Merovingian doing? I can't believe I'm meeting someone from The Matrix at last.

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, Persephone said:

Huge fan of the FM franchise, used to follow every update and used to buy and play every version (and sometimes returned to previous versions, cause I liked them better). Due to a personal crisis in my private life, I haven't been able to keep up with the FM versions.

In fact, I haven't bought a game since FM18. And I'm starting to believe that it's been so long, that it's time to buy a new version. Finally.

But looking up everything that changed since FM'18 is quite a task and surprisingly difficult to completely understand what was a revamp or completely different. Can someone give me a summary about what changed? Is it still the same game?

Tactics: FM19 introduced "defensive lines" and "lines of engagement", also I think "counter press" and "regroup" as options. FM23 made some important tweaks as well - so a LOT on the tactics board

Data analysis: Is a big thing now. Your scouts reports on player data performance. Your data analysts give you specific info in simple to understand charts, on team and players.

Match Engine: With changes from FM19 and FM20 in tactics has been a bit of a rollercoaster and its took time, but at current state of play certainly at high levels its good. More scrappy / realistic midfield, players behave more in line with their roles and duties, feels more intuitive.

Those are the main 3 ones that spring to mind. No doubt I've missed something, and many other more subtle changes.

On the whole, it will feel very different and up to date compared to FM18 so I'd say go for it.

 

[permanentquandary]

Another change is Mentoring. FM18 marked the end of the Tutoring era. No longer can one hoover up the world's elder high determination Model Professionals and set them to mould your wonderkids into refined upstanding characters. In those days, the worst that could happen is the tutoring gets cut short because the players fell out with one another. And in those days, you could tutor a kid in the U18s with a first team player. Now, you have to move the U18 player into the first team in order for them to be mentored. In those days, you could sign anyone solely for the purpose of being tutors, with the intention that they never kick a ball for you in matches. As long as they had a higher reputation and squad status and shared positional familiarity, the tutoring was good to go. Now, they won't be able to mentor anyone because their standing in the social hierarchy of the squad will be too low. The Hierarchy system will cause you to sell or release players purely because their personality and social status in the group is too weak or strong.

The criteria for transferring personalities in the new mentoring system is much higher and even less well explained. There's a lot of guesswork and it doesn't help that the UI for it is dreadful. The mentoring screen gives no indication of your individual personalities of every player in your team - you have to access the Squad panel and create a custom personality view for that - then flick between the two as you decide who to pick as mentors and who should be mentored by them. It's a disaster. You will be sat there flicking back and forth faffing about with that poxy Add Players drop down box for hours seeing whether or not the mentoring will be predicted to have any effect.

If your team is all Balanced personality, good luck seeing any major development in training until you replace the lot of them. FM18 was the last FM where that is not necessary.

All of this is why I stuck with FM18 after buying 19, 20, 21 and 22. The match engine for 18 was superior to 19 and 20 and it was also the last FM where you could configure Team Shape between the range of Highly Structured and Very Fluid.

Edited February 2, 2023 by permanentquandary

[Marko1989]

There is one more change, I don't know if it was mentioned in previous comments they are too long - Players value has changed.

So now instead of player having one value, like for example he is worth 10 millions, like on Transfermarkt

Players now have price range, like this: 


Which is stupid beyond belief, now when you go to player search screen you can see "not for sale" for some bad players, even we all know that all players in the world have their price and they are for sale.



I have no idea who thought this is logical. It can be useful since you know now immediately price range, but player should have his price, and price range for which he can be bought. Now you can't even sort players properly by price in players search screen because of that. They could do something like this, with both - 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Marko1989

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

Players now have price range, like this: 


Which is stupid beyond belief, now when you go to player search screen you can see "not for sale" for some bad players, even we all know that all players in the world have their price and they are for sale.

I have no idea who thought this is logical. It can be useful since you know now immediately price range, but player should have his price, and price range for which he can be bought. Now you can't even sort players properly by price in players search screen because of that. They could do something like this, with both - 

 

And it's usually hilariously wrong lol, especially if that 'value' comes from the agent.

[Marko1989]

13 minutes ago, Maviarab said:

And it's usually hilariously wrong lol, especially if that 'value' comes from the agent.

I didn't know it was wrong, I thought it is at least precise if they implemented it. I didn't buy FM 23, I bought FM 22 when that was implemented but I didn't play it long enough to see if those price ranges are correct, I just know I didn't like it, I am still playing FM 2021 where everything was normal. If those price ranges are wrong, then it is even worse than I thought

Edited February 2, 2023 by Marko1989

[sthptngomad76]

Think this covers your exact question

 

[gunnerfan]

Watched Z's video, and I was surprised that he didn't go into the subtle (yet substantive) changes in the match engine. It's not just that way in which player movements are represented; it's the manner in which the AI reacts to how the human player is playing and the adjustments made as the match progresses. It's the way the AI can and does take advantage of your defensive line being gassed or playing up too far (or both) with late goals. I also suspect (although I haven't seen this discussed anywhere on this forum) that the AI now has some capability to "scout" your team and take tactical advantage (as teams do IRL). For example, I went through a stretch where I was having difficulty against teams playing a particularly aggressive genepress. Next thing I knew, three out of four sides that had previously used other tactics against me switched to the gegenpress. Could be a coincidence, but if the AI can adjust mid-match, it's not unreasonable to think it could extend beyond that. And I think that is a major improvement.

Z also didn't mention how the new player roles post-FM18, and the reflection of those roles in matchplay, have improved the game. Because they have.

He did mention--twice--the elimination of the percentage measure of players' condition in favor of the heart icon. As if it were a good thing. I disagree. Each heart icon setting reflects a range of condition, and one is left to guess where on the scale it falls. I prefer the percentages, and was thrilled to see the the Flut skin shows both.

All in all, I do like FM23 better than FM18.

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

On 03/02/2023 at 08:00, gunnerfan said:

one is left to guess where on the scale it falls.

This is absolutely not true. The heart corresponds to a level of conditioning that you can see before matches and during half time of you have a sports scientist on staff. You don’t have to guess anything, you just don’t get a number, which is more realistic. 

[gunnerfan]

1 hour ago, bielsadidnothingwrong said:

This is absolutely not true. The heart corresponds to a level of conditioning that you can see before matches and during half time of you have a sports scientist on staff. You don’t have to guess anything, you just don’t get a number, which is more realistic. 

I know what it represents. And I disagree, it's not more realistic. IRL, you would know when a player was tiring by the physical cues he gives on the pitch (bending over, catching his breath, etc). Since there is no way to accurately represent this in the game, the percentages allow you to gauge to a greater degree when a player is tiring and to what degree.

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, bielsadidnothingwrong said:

This is absolutely not true. The heart corresponds to a level of conditioning that you can see before matches and during half time of you have a sports scientist on staff. You don’t have to guess anything, you just don’t get a number, which is more realistic. 

How is a heart with degrees of colour more realistic than anything else lol?  As gunnerfan said, if you want 'realism' there would be no indicator at all...just 'worded cues' to say x was doing Y which would gibve you an indication.  So if we are having helpful graphical 'aids' (because, it's a game), it a was move backwards.  Thankfully the skin I use has both.

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, Maviarab said:

if you want 'realism'

It baffles me sometimes when people want something to be implemented in the game they throw in the realism card and as soon as there is something they don't like, they use the card of "it's still a games so it has to be fun"

I would be very curious to see what people would say if they were asked to quantify how much realism and how much "fun" stuff they would want in the game

[Supermercado99]

I've been playing pretty much non-stop since CM93/94 and while I got bored with managing I've realised how relaxing it is to stay unemployed, follow league news, and pick a team to follow through the news like a supporter while the game world unfolds on its own. I haven't bothered with the new version because it doesn't seem like there's anything for my (admittedly obscure) style of play other than the updated database.

Does anyone know if there are improvements to the football world immersion from FM22? I put in a bunch of bug reports (e.g. league social feed didn't send news when clubs moved into new stadiums/went into administration even if you have all the options ticked) and suggestions but all for minor stuff (extra options for news feed customisation/better AI manager hiring) so as much as I think the changes would be good for all players they're so minor in the grand scheme of things that I doubt there have been any changes that would justify upgrading. 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Supermercado99

[rp1966]

14 hours ago, DarJ said:

It baffles me sometimes when people want something to be implemented in the game they throw in the realism card and as soon as there is something they don't like, they use the card of "it's still a games so it has to be fun"

I would be very curious to see what people would say if they were asked to quantify how much realism and how much "fun" stuff they would want in the game

I'll take you up on that - in terms of the football stuff (tactics, transfers, ME) 75:25  realism to fun (you still want to be able to take a club from non-league to the champions league within a reasonable number of seasons that people are willing to play)
On the management stuff - press conferences, player interaction , what a manager can or cannot do in relation to the club - 40:60 realism to fun.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by rp1966

[DarJ]

36 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

I'll take you up on that - in terms of the football stuff (tactics, transfers, ME) 75:25  realism to fun (you still want to be able to take a club from non-league to the champions league within a reasonable number of seasons that people are willing to play)
On the management stuff - press conferences, player interaction , what a manager can or cannot do in relation to the club - 40:60 realism to fun.

 

 

I can agree with that. Maybe I’ll go 80:20 on the first part

[Yuko]

On 02/02/2023 at 15:42, Persephone said:

Can someone give me a summary about what changed? Is it still the same game?

 

The UI and UX is much worse and the editor has more bugs. That I can say with certainty.

The game is pretty much the same, some new minor additions, but it's still the same concept where you cannot really do much tactically outside of the options provided. 

 

And the database I guess is different obviously. Lots of great players now were predicted to be scrubs then and vice versa  

[Brother Ben]

On 05/02/2023 at 06:32, Supermercado99 said:

I've been playing pretty much non-stop since CM93/94 and while I got bored with managing I've realised how relaxing it is to stay unemployed, follow league news, and pick a team to follow through the news like a supporter while the game world unfolds on its own. I haven't bothered with the new version because it doesn't seem like there's anything for my (admittedly obscure) style of play other than the updated database.

I love it  

Do you view games too?  This could definetely make a good premise for a blog 

[Supermercado99]

8 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

I love it  

Do you view games too?  This could definetely make a good premise for a blog 

Only when the team I follow is in a major cup game or playoff. Otherwise I just like watching the world go by. Hello midlife crisis.

[Cobblers]

On 04/02/2023 at 16:58, bielsadidnothingwrong said:

This is absolutely not true. The heart corresponds to a level of conditioning that you can see before matches and during half time of you have a sports scientist on staff. You don’t have to guess anything, you just don’t get a number, which is more realistic. 

I agree. The heart is a good feature and one I find makes it more obvious as to where a player is at rather than giving a simple percentage.

Percentage is also too easy to manage, and the manager can know "don't play below 80%. Now it adds an element of risk.

[Cobblers]

On 02/02/2023 at 13:54, Maviarab said:

 

I installed '23 to be greeted by an ad-useage-permission screen which immediately almost made me refund it.  

Isn't this related to adverts within matches? Or have I not read the small print properly? 

 

 

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, Cobblers said:

Isn't this related to adverts within matches? Or have I not read the small print properly? 

 

 

For the targeted ads which under UK law they have to warn you about and allow you to opt out of.  So sure, you can opt out, but should never be there in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

[gunnerfan]

I opt out. It only takes a moment. 

[Cobblers]

I don't mind the adverts. Surprised we don't see major product suppliers setup and add their finances to SI in order to get on the advertising boards.

Thousands of eyes spread over thousand of hours = a big impact to advertising. 

[DarJ]

getting mad about the ads thing is silly because they have always been there is just that now they are required to tell you, previously they could do it without telling you 

[Maviarab]

22 minutes ago, DarJ said:

getting mad about the ads thing is silly because they have always been there is just that now they are required to tell you, previously they could do it without telling you 

Last time I played targeted ads were NOT there actually.... 

Personally, I'll die on this hill that 'targeted ads' have no place in a game, expecially a predominantly single player one and I sure as hell shouldn't have to 'opt out or accept' before I can even start the damn game.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Maviarab

[Cloud9]

On 03/02/2023 at 08:00, gunnerfan said:

Watched Z's video, and I was surprised that he didn't go into the subtle (yet substantive) changes in the match engine. It's not just that way in which player movements are represented; it's the manner in which the AI reacts to how the human player is playing and the adjustments made as the match progresses. It's the way the AI can and does take advantage of your defensive line being gassed or playing up too far (or both) with late goals. I also suspect (although I haven't seen this discussed anywhere on this forum) that the AI now has some capability to "scout" your team and take tactical advantage (as teams do IRL). For example, I went through a stretch where I was having difficulty against teams playing a particularly aggressive genepress. Next thing I knew, three out of four sides that had previously used other tactics against me switched to the gegenpress. Could be a coincidence, but if the AI can adjust mid-match, it's not unreasonable to think it could extend beyond that. And I think that is a major improvement.

Z also didn't mention how the new player roles post-FM18, and the reflection of those roles in matchplay, have improved the game. Because they have.

He did mention--twice--the elimination of the percentage measure of players' condition in favor of the heart icon. As if it were a good thing. I disagree. Each heart icon setting reflects a range of condition, and one is left to guess where on the scale it falls. I prefer the percentages, and was thrilled to see the the Flut skin shows both.

All in all, I do like FM23 better than FM18.

I saw that video too, and while some of the points are valid, there's a pretty clear direction it wants to point you in so I'd take it with a grain of salt. 

Z has been pushing for graphics changes from SI and the channel stopped production on most fm23 content. There have been a lot of ME changes and the data hub implementation is huge but it's not for everyone. FM23 is the first FM I've played where I can set up defensively and have it be effective, it's also the first FM where the players make realistic mistakes like a poor first touch which I enjoy.

I think if you're not a fan of an actual club IRL (you get bit by the bug and it's terrible for the rest of your life), the changes to FM will feel a bit hollow. As a simulator for up to date real life football? Incredible. Without that element it's a game with flaws that could wear thin pretty quickly. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Cloud9

[Steve1977beyond]

I brought FM21 and FM22, but weirdly, I just prefer FM18. Reason for this is mostly in that FM18 I was playing the Touch mode and so there is far less clicking.

But more important than that, everything related to the tactic is on one screen, whereas in the versions after, it's on 3. You don't know what you're doing half the time and some of the instructions directly contradict each other. i.e. lets say you want to play a low block, you still get option of Advanced Forwards, Poachers etc. Should be defensive forward and defensive target man only surely.

Basically from FM20 they just introduced too many variables to the tactics when there was simply no need. Plus, although you can delegate lots of roles, those incessant ones about training updates are so tiresome beyond belief.

I really want to get into the new ones because they are ultra slick, but they're just not fun for me.

[gunnerfan]

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I think if you're not a fan of an actual club IRL (you get bit by the bug and it's terrible for the rest of your life)... 

I know what you mean. Years ago, I was coaching my son's intramural team and I read Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch and have been an Arsenal fan ever since, in good times and in bad, in sickness and... well, you know. Oddly enough, though, playing FM all these years, I have found that managing a random team in a journeyman save sometimes results in an attachment forming to the club. I have adopted Celta di Vigo, Lazio, Santos, and Shamrock Rovers that way. My wofe can always tell when another hook has sunk in when a new shirt or replica jersey arrives.

[Caketiger]

6 hours ago, Steve1977beyond said:

I brought FM21 and FM22, but weirdly, I just prefer FM18. Reason for this is mostly in that FM18 I was playing the Touch mode and so there is far less clicking.

But more important than that, everything related to the tactic is on one screen, whereas in the versions after, it's on 3. You don't know what you're doing half the time and some of the instructions directly contradict each other. i.e. lets say you want to play a low block, you still get option of Advanced Forwards, Poachers etc. Should be defensive forward and defensive target man only surely.

Basically from FM20 they just introduced too many variables to the tactics when there was simply no need. Plus, although you can delegate lots of roles, those incessant ones about training updates are so tiresome beyond belief.

I really want to get into the new ones because they are ultra slick, but they're just not fun for me.

Agree about the quality of FM18 Touch. It was perfect for old schoolers like me who wanted to watch matches in 2D with highlights in 3D. I don't need the immersion of the full-fat game, just a few hours of game time every week. There is not really an equivalent version of FM23 for the type of player I was. 

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

On 07/02/2023 at 11:23, Cobblers said:

Percentage is also too easy to manage, and the manager can know "don't play below 80%.

Agreed. And it also does well to supplement the ability to look at a person physically and recognize their levels of tiredness in a way that feels sensible. 

[Cloud9]

18 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

I know what you mean. Years ago, I was coaching my son's intramural team and I read Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch and have been an Arsenal fan ever since, in good times and in bad, in sickness and... well, you know. Oddly enough, though, playing FM all these years, I have found that managing a random team in a journeyman save sometimes results in an attachment forming to the club. I have adopted Celta di Vigo, Lazio, Santos, and Shamrock Rovers that way. My wofe can always tell when another hook has sunk in when a new shirt or replica jersey arrives.

That's awesome, Fever Pitch is a great read.

And yea! FM is a great way to get invested in a team, difficult to manage the team you support with the player's you're already attached to (mostly because you have to move them on to progress). FM is super for that team building and getting hooked