The absurdity of FM.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Role and duty selection is well balanced imho, maybe RPM is a little questionable but all alse looks fine. Contradiction? Dirct passing and lower tempo, wasting time? Nothing too important. Overkill? Maybe a little more pressing intensity but again hardly a reason why such tactics should allow 70 shots from opposition

You first need to understand what terms such as tactical balance, overkill, contradiction and the like actually mean. If you think that something is well-balanced and/or designed, that does not mean it really is.

One single tactical element can make a huge difference (either for the better or worse), let alone two or more. 

[Experienced Defender]

49 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies

Of all the three elements you listed here, the only regular part of defensive tactics is the low block. Which simply equals a low line of engagement. Therefore: a defensive tactic/style of play = low block = lower or much lower LOE.

All other elements - including the team mentality and number of attacking or any other duties - have nothing to do directly with defensive football (or a defensive style of football) and can vary from tactic to tactic. 

Which means that you can play defensive football under any mentality, including low ones such as defensive or cautious. But it does not mean that you must use a defensive (low) team mentality in order to play defensive football. The same applies to the number of different duties within the system.

If a tactic is poorly or insufficiently balanced in terms of roles and duties or contains contradiction or overkill, no team mentality is going to make it work. Even a well-designed tactic can fail if it's not suited/adapted to the team you manage, let alone a flawed one.

[Mitja]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You first need to understand what terms such as tactical balance, overkill, contradiction and the like actually mean. If you think that something is well-balanced and/or designed, that does not mean it really is.

One single tactical element can make a huge difference (either for the better or worse), let alone two or more. 

Oh please enlighten me what those terms meen. If a single element makes such huge difference and if presets are only a starting point then it looks even a qualified coach isn't really able to play the game without comming here for advice.  And he (or me) gets almost abused for what playing one notch loe too low? That role&duty selection is well balanced bigger problem could have been formation he used but nobody mentioned that.

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Anyway I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies.

What you fail to understand, is that Mentality does not define your playing style. One can create a perfectly sound defensive tactic on Standard, Positive or even Attacking Mentality, but by your definition, that wouldn't be a "proper defensive tactic", because you seem to only care about Mentality.

Mentality is a risk modifier. Nothing less, nothing more.

Imagine they were named differently:

• Very Defensive = Extremely low-risk
• Defensive = Very low-risk
• Cautious = Low-risk
• Balanced = Balanced
• Positive = High-risk
• Attacking = Very high-risk
• Very Attacking = Extremely high-risk

That's risk-taking overall, including marking, tackling, passing, dribbling and shooting.

Now imagine you ask your team to be very risk-averse with Defensive Mentality. By default, all Duties will be much less attacking than they would be on higher Mentalities.

Here's two examples:

• Defensive Mentality + Attack Duty = Positive individual Mentality
• Positive Mentality + Attack Duty = Very Attacking individual Mentality

You can Google for @fmFutbolManager's Mentality Calculator (not allowed to link 3rd-party websites) or go into your player's Individual Instructions to see how things change every time you change your Mentality, to see more examples.

That's why balancing Duties out isn't "putting everything in the middle". If you use a low-risk Mentality in combination with 10 Defend Duties, your team becomes so extremely risk-averse it's impossible to keep any of the ball, let alone create scoring opportunities. That's why you're trying to create some balance; no team can survive being under the cosh for 90 minutes straight.

Same principle applies to Instructions. Mentality already adjusts most of them by default, so naturally a Defensive Mentality may require different kind of Instructions than a Positive one.

For example, a very low-risk Mentality also adjusts your defensive line to be very low-risk. Now, if you then go and set it even lower, you're quite literally asking your team to camp on top of your goalie, meaning you're giving opposition all the initiative (hence Liverpool finishing the game with 70% of possession in OP's case).

Again, Mentality does not define your playing style. It's simply an overall risk modifier. If you start out with a very low-risk base, of course you should balance certain aspects of your tactic out, to create at least some kind of a way for your team to keep some of the ball or score a goal. And the opposite, a very high-risk base may require you to balance things out in the opposite way, to prevent your tactic being overly aggressive.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Zemahh

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, Mitja said:

If a single element makes such huge difference and if presets are only a starting point then it looks even a qualified coach isn't really able to play the game without comming here for advice

Being a qualified real-life coach does not automatically make a person qualified for a video game. The best coaches/managers in the world (Klopp, Pep, Simeono, Jose wtc.) would probably struggle if they were to play FM for the first time, just like any other person with little or no experience. You are comparing apples and oranges all the time. 

 

14 minutes ago, Mitja said:

That role&duty selection is well balanced bigger problem could have been formation he used but nobody mentioned that

Well, given that you are such an "expert", why don't you simply show the OP how he should play and what his tactic should look like? 

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Being a qualified real-life coach does not automatically make a person qualified for a video game. The best coaches/managers in the world (Klopp, Pep, Simeono, Jose wtc.) would probably struggle if they were to play FM for the first time, just like any other person with little or no experience. You are comparing apples and oranges all the time. 

 

Well, given that you are such an "expert", why don't you simply show the OP how he should play and what his tactic should look like? 

Agreed aside from saying what according to him a proper Defensive tactic is and arguing with us, he didn't actually give any concrete advice to OP 

[Mitja]

21 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

What you fail to understand, is that Mentality does not define your playing style. One can create a perfectly sound defensive tactic on Standard, Positive or even Attacking Mentality, but by your definition, that wouldn't be a "proper defensive tactic", because you seem to only care about Mentality.

 

I'm perfectly awere of that fact I play FM since CM. I'm also awere every mentality is a setup of different instructions and paterrns. Why do you think all downloadable tactics use same principles (att mentality, all maxed out etc)? On the other hand great majority of tactics here are pretty much the same, There's very little variation, next to zero extreme tactical attempts. No talk of having plan b and c. And ''stupid'' AI has it all.

Another point I'm trying to make is that AI is able to use proper defensive tactics quite succeffuly I see it almost in every game. For me high risk mentality cannot be used in park the bus like tacics it doesn't make any sense also AI won't use high risk mentality when trying to employ park the bus like tactics. What is the point of having all those mentalities if you're only using one or two? A casual FM player who doesn't come here will also try to use low risk mentality when trying to play park the bus like tactics because that's in game description and in manual and because that seems logical from real life football logics perspective . You expect such tactics or presets to work half decently  not receive more than 70 shots in one game, much better to use one of those in download section and beat L'pool with it. 

[Mitja]

21 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Agreed aside from saying what according to him a proper Defensive tactic is and arguing with us, he didn't actually give any concrete advice to OP 

Better stay quiet than give advice like yours. Don't you think he was awere his tactics were overkill? lol it's obvious from his first post. But yeah one notch higher dude

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, Mitja said:

You expect such tactics or presets to work half decently  not receive more than 70 shots in one game, much better to use one of those in download section and beat L'pool with it. 

That's the problem and what people don't understand - they're not supposed to.

As I said above, they are nothing more than a starting point to help inexperienced managers understand some general principles.  From that perspective the presets do their job - they help you understand (for example) that defensive tactics need a deep formation and passive tactical settings.  If someone then uses those presets without adapting them for their players / opposition and lose or (worse) seeing that they aren't working and doing nothing to change, that isn't the preset's fault.

That isn't clear in game which is a problem and thus the whole concept of what the presets are for is misunderstood.

19 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Why do you think all downloadable tactics use same principles

Because they're easier to set up and more forgiving of different teams with different players.  Plus "exciting" attacking football is more popular.

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Of all the three elements you listed here, the only regular part of defensive tactics is the low block. Which simply equals a low line of engagement. Therefore: a defensive tactic/style of play = low block = lower or much lower LOE.

QQ for you ED.  Say you pick team mentality as Defend. And you can set your LOE options to:-

a) Lower LOE

b) Standard LOE

c) Higher LOE

Because your baseline was Defend have you still actually got a low LOE even with options b & c?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Robson 07

[Tsuru]

33 minutos atrás, herne79 disse:

As I said above, they are nothing more than a starting point to help inexperienced managers understand some general principles.  From that perspective the presets do their job - they help you understand (for example) that defensive tactics need a deep formation and passive tactical settings.  If someone then uses those presets without adapting them for their players / opposition and lose or (worse) seeing that they aren't working and doing nothing to change, that isn't the preset's fault.

That isn't clear in game which is a problem and thus the whole concept of what the presets are for is misunderstood.

Hi herne.

I don´t want to be so off topic but as you mentioned here, I think the templates are bad designed also as starting points and don´t do their job. Why? Because even if a player sees a Catenaccio preset and tries to create something based on it he will probably start being too passive, and there is a great chance of frustration and anger. And if he tries a very aggressive style based for example on vertical tiki taka, maybe it will be over aggresive and he will concede too many goals and his team will not play well. Also the suggestions of roles and combinations are very awful and counterproductive, they give us bad insights about those combinations. Even as starting points they confuse much more than help. 

For you to have an idea: I have read about roles and duties combinations before migrating to FM 20 and when I saw the ones at the templates I thought everything I read was completely wrong. I was so confused because the game looked like something completely different from what I have done, until I saw those combinations simply didn´t work - even as starting points.

I cannot see on the templates any principles you and others have explained lots of times here - balance, defensive compactness, good selection of roles and duties, the use of line of engagement/defensive line as ways to define style of play etc. And those principles are very valuable and they helped me playing the game and having fun, because when I was trying the templates - even as starting points - it was a 100% frustration for me. And yes, those principles are the real starting points for playing FM and having fun, I would really like them to be somehow in the game and I simply cannot see. 

I would just like to show a different point of view about this, thank you very much for making clear what is the real purpose of the templates and that they are not really supertactics.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

QQ for you ED.  Say you pick team mentality as Defend. And you can set your LOE options to:-

a) Lower LOE

b) Standard LOE

c) Higher LOE

Because your baseline was Defend have you still actually got a low LOE even with options b & c?

Depends on a number of factors:

- what style of football I want to play (because picking the defensive mentality does not automatically mean that I want to play a defensive/defense-minded style)

- which (type of) formation I use (top-heavy, bottom-heavy, balanced)

- my team's strengths, weaknesses, overall quality and reputation

etc.

But the most important thing for me is the setup of roles and duties. That's what I set up first and always in direct relation to my intended style of play.

And I never use any tactical element - be it role or instruction or mentality (as a "super-instruction" of sort) - just for the sake of it. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

I'm perfectly awere of that fact I play FM since CM. I'm also awere every mentality is a setup of different instructions and paterrns. Why do you think all downloadable tactics use same principles (att mentality, all maxed out etc)? On the other hand great majority of tactics here are pretty much the same, There's very little variation, next to zero extreme tactical attempts. No talk of having plan b and c. And ''stupid'' AI has it all.

I cannot speak to what the downloadable tactic section is like, as I've no interest in that area but in this section there's a number of cracking threads with a good variety, including a number on defensive counter attacking football.

Perhaps I've misinterpreted what you mean here though.

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

I cannot speak to what the downloadable tactic section is like, as I've no interest in that area but in this section there's a number of cracking threads with a good variety, including a number on defensive counter attacking football.

Perhaps I've misinterpreted what you mean here though.

Exactly. @Mitja @dolph11 For example this thread is one of the more recent ones that gives a great idea of how to play good defensive football in FM21. There are many others if you search too

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Robson 07]

Thanks for reply @Experienced Defender but can I redress the question.

- Team mentality has been set to Defend.

- Out of possession instructions are untouched.  So both DL and LOE are standard.  

- Do I have a low block?  Y/N

-----

Then same question as above except DL and LOE  is now higher.

Do we have a low block (thanks to Defend Mentality); or a mid-block; or a high-block?

[Kuchiki]

17 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Thanks for reply @Experienced Defender but can I redress the question.

- Team mentality has been set to Defend.

- Out of possession instructions are untouched.  So both DL and LOE are standard.  

- Do I have a low block?  Y/N

-----

Then same question as above except DL and LOE  is now higher.

Do we have a low block (thanks to Defend Mentality); or a mid-block; or a high-block?

I think the problem with what you are asking is you're not taking into account the formation or roles, you can play a 22123 with 3 attack duty pressing forwards and attack duty inside forwards which may have higher pressing than say your central defenders resulting in the team engaging too soon which could impact what kind of block you wish to play.

[herne79]

46 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Hi herne.

I don´t want to be so off topic but as you mentioned here, I think the templates are bad designed also as starting points and don´t do their job. Why? Because even if a player sees a Catenaccio preset and tries to create something based on it he will probably start being too passive, and there is a great chance of frustration and anger. And if he tries a very aggressive style based for example on vertical tiki taka, maybe it will be over aggresive and he will concede too many goals and his team will not play well. Also the suggestions of roles and combinations are very awful and counterproductive, they give us bad insights about those combinations. Even as starting points they confuse much more than help. 

For you to have an idea: I have read about roles and duties combinations before migrating to FM 20 and when I saw the ones at the templates I thought everything I read was completely wrong. I was so confused because the game looked like something completely different from what I have done, until I saw those combinations simply didn´t work - even as starting points.

I cannot see on the templates any principles you and others have explained lots of times here - balance, defensive compactness, good selection of roles and duties, the use of line of engagement/defensive line as ways to define style of play etc. And those principles are very valuable and they helped me playing the game and having fun, because when I was trying the templates - even as starting points - it was a 100% frustration for me. And yes, those principles are the real starting points for playing FM and having fun, I would really like them to be somehow in the game and I simply cannot see. 

I would just like to show a different point of view about this, thank you very much for making clear what is the real purpose of the templates and that they are not really supertactics.

Yeh I understand completely .

And here's the thing, when you say:

Quote

Because even if a player sees a Catenaccio preset and tries to create something based on it he will probably start being too passive, and there is a great chance of frustration and anger. And if he tries a very aggressive style based for example on vertical tiki taka, maybe it will be over aggresive and he will concede too many goals and his team will not play well.

that's the point.  "Start being too passive; "maybe it will be over aggressive" - the key is to then recognise that and adjust accordingly.  Not easy for an inexperienced manager to do of course, but that's a different topic really.

However this isn't made clear in game.  In game these presets tend to get seen as the finished article and it isn't made clear they're not.  So absolutely it can lead to frustration because the communication of this could be improved.

Could the presets themselves be improved as starting points?  Read through these comments and you'd think so, some comments are even quite scathing of them.  Perhaps there is room for improvement or even simplification of them, but there is also a degree of not really understanding their use which can result in such comments too.

One thing I will add.  Advice in this forum tends to differ fairly substantially from how things are designed in game and also if you head into the downloads section.  That doesn't make this forum any more correct than elsewhere.  It's just a different perspective.  So yes, if it were me at SI designing these presets I'd probably go a different way but that doesn't make me right and the existing presets wrong.

[Mitja]

38 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Exactly. @Mitja @dolph11 For example this thread is one of the more recent ones that gives a great idea of how to play good defensive football in FM21. There are many others if you search too

You just don't give up ha? That's not defensive football lol just because he used lower loe and ticked counter. That's attacking football with mid block. And it proves what I'm saying that there is no proper defensive tactic on this forum yet. But AI is doing it all the time which meens it can be done.

[CARRERA]

4 hours ago, Mitja said:

Why is then playing highest block on att mentality not a problem? There are countless real life teams parking the bus infront of penalty area and very few pressing like City. 

Anyway I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies. But everybody is full of advice. And most of advice is: play balanced put everything in middle. 

Well, usually when defending super aggressively and all the way up the pitch, quick transitions would really hurt as almost noone is left for defense. At least thats what might happen in real life. in FM though, this is one of the main problem why its so easy, the AI simply often is too passiv and not trying to exploit your weakness. If you look through the forums or other platforms you can see people beating top sides with their just promoted clubs because they can exploit the weakness of high aggressive teams with quick transitioning tactics without beeing too exposed themselves.

The AI simply doesnt react well when there is need for beeing more aggressive and direct and neither they react well when they need take a few steps back to not being caught on the break.

After all its a game and the tactic creation can be quite satisfying. Though the same feature is as badly explained ingame as it ever could be.

[Experienced Defender]

57 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Thanks for reply @Experienced Defender but can I redress the question.

- Team mentality has been set to Defend.

- Out of possession instructions are untouched.  So both DL and LOE are standard.  

- Do I have a low block?  Y/N

You essentially have something between a medium and low block (medium low block, if you will). 

 

59 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Then same question as above except DL and LOE  is now higher.

Do we have a low block (thanks to Defend Mentality); or a mid-block; or a high-block?

By the same token, you now have something between a high and medium block. 

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Mitja said:

That's not defensive football lol just because he used lower loe and ticked counter. That's attacking football with mid block

No it's not. As soon as the LOE is set to lower, it is defensive football in terms of the core playing style. Whether a tactic is well or poorly designed is a different question. But the core style of play is defensive. 

Now, apart from that... 

20 minutes ago, Mitja said:

You just don't give up ha? That's not defensive football lol just because he used lower loe and ticked counter. That's attacking football with mid block. And it proves what I'm saying that there is no proper defensive tactic on this forum yet. But AI is doing it all the time which meens it can be done

Since the beginning of your participation in this thread:

- not a single one of your comments have been constructive

- you have been consistently imputing to people things they did not say at all

- every single altercation between you and another person was started/instigated by a hostile or trolling comment coming from you

- in a number of your posts, you were acting as though you are the OP's "personal lawyer"

- you have constantly been ignoring all well-intended posts by people trying to help you understand things better and instead relentlessly insisted on your biased presumptions.

NOTE: I have been patient with you up to this point only because I was hoping that you were going to learn something and start being constructive, but obviously to no avail. Therefore, enough is enough. If you make just one more comment along the same lines, I'll have no choice but to take official action. So please take this as my last unofficial warning.

[Kcinnay]

My two cents as someone who's a real life football coach and a CM/FM player for 20 years now: the whole 'attacking/defensive' debate is pointless. There's a defensive phase, an attacking phase, there are two transition phases and there are multiple sorts of set pieces. Even a passive side has to attack and can be quite spectacular in their direct attacks. So called 'attacking teams' with lots of possession and slow, short passes in their attacking phase use that as a defensive tool, "resting with the ball", as José Mourinho called it 15 years ago. Defending in a low block doesn't make you a 'defensive' side. In Belgium, one of the most spectacular teams at the moment, KV Oostende, defends aggressively, hunts in packs, is considered as one of the most entertaining - if not thé most - entertaining team in the league, but would be considered as a defensive team by that standard. Those are lame labels.

That aside: it would be nice if the tactics forum would be a little more openminded, like it used to be. Of course, tactics need some balance, but more than that, they need to have a clear vision. Agressive defending isn't 'wrong' per se - it can be a choice, a choice that can work in real football and in FM. The same goes for passive defending, ultra-direct football, very low possession football. It would be nice if there'd be more space for talking about creating a tactical vision, less stigmatisation about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Your team doesn't need to be moderately compact vertically, your team doesn't need to be moderate in risk taking, in formation choice. It's all a matter of context, of vision, of perspective. The official advices in this forum are often too dogmatic to my liking nowadays, pushing everyone to some sort of mainstream playing style, and that's... boring?

And it has been said before in this topic, but: succesfull (smaller) AI teams tend to use those passive mentalities and so-called overkill settings with some sort of success. The playing style templates aren't optimized, but it's not like they can't work. Better labels will need to be used for mentality, greater diversity in set pieces and defending - it's for example very difficult to play an aggressive ball-oriented press where you defend zonally and attack the ball with multiple players at a time - and maybe a step back in the player role dogma's, because they don't match the way you coach real players. I get it, it's a handy tool for the AI, but in football logic, you're more inclined to give your central midfielder specific - or general - tasks, instead of thinking whether he's a defensive, roaming or advanced playmaker - or maybe a mezzalla? FM is a video game, but it would be better if it were easier to implement football logic - instead of gaming logic and dogmatic tendencies.

Some thoughts were slightly off topic, I know, but are they really? - in a topic about the alleged absurdity of FM?

[dolph11]

7 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Defending in a low block can absolutely work in the game too. The tactic just needs to be well designed, among other things and if you were going to set up a low block system it would like quite a bit different from the preset (certainly if your goal is to recreate Wolves for example).

Please, I'm intrigued, tell me how this formation would differ from Wolves over the previous two seasons, as I can guarantee you, on paper, it wouldn't differ much. Especially in the defensive strata!

[dolph11]

We are talking SEVENTY shots here people. I'm not talking about a defeat. In my opinion, no formation/style should allow that, especially one that isn't horrifically unbalanced. 

[CARRERA]

3 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

one that isn't horrifically unbalanced.

you still dont respect the limits within the match engine. as mentioned earlier, this might look well suited on paper, but isnt translating as that into the match engine. One would argue about the match engine is not replicating well whats introduced by the tactics creator, or maybe the whole mentality system isnt designed/explained well. im all in for that. but still: that match engine is what it is - a video game with its limits.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

7 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Please, I'm intrigued, tell me how this formation would differ from Wolves over the previous two seasons, as I can guarantee you, on paper, it wouldn't differ much. Especially in the defensive strata!

To be clear, I'm talking about the tactical instructions not the formation. The formation itself has never been the issue here, really.

[dolph11]

7 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

you still dont respect the limits within the match engine. as mentioned earlier, this might look well suited on paper, but isnt translating as that into the match engine. One would argue about the match engine is not replicating well whats introduced by the tactics creator, or maybe the whole mentality system isnt designed/explained well. im all in for that. but still: that match engine is what it is - a video game with its limits.

That's exactly the point of my post!

 

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Please, I'm intrigued, tell me how this formation would differ from Wolves over the previous two seasons

FYI, formation and tactic are not the same thing. You can create a number of different tactics within any formation. 

[dolph11]

5 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

To be clear, I'm talking about the tactical instructions not the formation. The formation itself has never been the issue here, really.

I'm on about the instructions. Tell me, how did Wolves defend differently over the previous two seasons? It was extremely passive and more about denying space positionally than trying to win the ball back. We had no BWM and only one career CB (Willy Boly). I really don't know how you see that Wolves defended anything other than passively. 

[Experienced Defender]

Wolves don't defend either too passively or too aggressively. They defend intelligently. 

20 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

We are talking SEVENTY shots here people

Given how extremely passive your tactic was - with virtually no resistance at all - it would have been no surprise if there had been 100  shots. But never mind.

[dolph11]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Wolves don't defend either too passively or too aggressively. They defend intelligently. 

Given how extremely passive your tactic was - with virtually no resistance at all - it would have been no surprise if there had been 100  shots. But never mind.

Oh come on now, you're not being realistic here. Wolves, over the previous two seasons defended passively and intelligently. This is my point, you can use the formation from the template and not face 70 shots. Let's be real here. That tactic and the instructions are misleading. 

[Mitja]

25 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

We are talking SEVENTY shots here people. I'm not talking about a defeat. In my opinion, no formation/style should allow that, especially one that isn't horrifically unbalanced. 

I don't think this is only about preset you used. Imho you used real life football logics and followed what game description says. I'm sure if you played highest block on att mentality there would be less Liverpoool shots. And that is where real issue stands. Like in real life deep block defending should be much easier than high press. 

41 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:

Agressive defending isn't 'wrong' per se - it can be a choice, a choice that can work in real football and in FM. The same goes for passive defending, ultra-direct football, very low possession football. It would be nice if there'd be more space for talking about creating a tactical vision, less stigmatisation about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Your team doesn't need to be moderately compact vertically, your team doesn't need to be moderate in risk taking, in formation choice. It's all a matter of context, of vision, of perspective. The official advices in this forum are often too dogmatic to my liking nowadays, pushing everyone to some sort of mainstream playing style, and that's... boring?

This.

[herne79]

37 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

We are talking SEVENTY shots here people. I'm not talking about a defeat. In my opinion, no formation/style should allow that, especially one that isn't horrifically unbalanced. 

No manager would allow it either.  They'd see it happening and change their approach.

So when you saw it happening during the match why didn't you change things?

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

 This is my point, you can use the formation from the template and not face 70 shots. Let's be real here. That tactic and the instructions are misleading

I was the first to say that preset tactics are poorly designed (and misleading, if you will). I never use them, precisely because of the amount of overkill they contain. 

[dolph11]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No manager would allow it either.  They'd see it happening and change their approach.

So when you saw it happening during the match why didn't you change things?

Because it was more of an experiment. I feel like people are misunderstanding the point of my post. It isn't that I lost, it's the absurdity of it. Those instructions, on the face of it, should not have been as easily penetrated as it was. Quite simple really. Do you not think the templates and logic of it need more clarity?

Edited May 3, 2021 by dolph11

[NotSoSpecialOne]

If I were forced to keep the Defensive Mentality that the preset has and only make two changes to the set up as a whole then I'd toss out Be More Disciplined and move Lower Defensive Line up to Standard (it remains a low block by virtue of the mentality).

Given the initial context Polish Club vs Liverpool and the sheer gulf in quality that entails, I'd scrap the preset entirely and start from scratch but that's personal preference.

 

[herne79]

1 minute ago, dolph11 said:

Because it was more of an experiment. I feel like people are misunderstanding the point of my post. It isn't that I lost, it's the absurdity of it. Those instructions, on the face of it, should not have been as easily penetrated as it was. Quite simple really. Do you not think the templates and logic of it need more clarity?

Re-read my previous posts.  Those presets are not tactics to just use out of the box.  They are a starting point, something to change and adapt as circumstances require.

That's what needs more clarity in game.  There may or may not be a need to change the presets to something "better" but if you use them in unintended ways (which as I said before isn't your fault) and fail to adapt to the situation, the preset is not the only thing at fault.

[CARRERA]

maybe the unclarity of how things exactly work is part of the game and more likely a feature as it keeps people playing, looking up the communities, looking for tactics, for guides?!  JK, but i thought we did already agree on the presets being poorly designed, descriptions are misleading (especially the mentalities) or unclear overall. And whatever is intended with the presets, i bet almost everyone looking for a more "arcade playstyle" is understanding them as plug and play tactics. And YES eventhough FM is a "simulation" game, there should be plug and play presets for people who just want to turn on the game, play a few matches and enjoy the 3D or transfer market rather then tinkering around with their tactics all day.

 

[jascko]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The best coaches/managers in the world (Klopp, Pep, Simeono, Jose wtc.) would probably struggle if they were to play FM for the first time, just like any other person with little or no experience.

This sentence mainly explains the problem with FM. And if I have understood the topic starter correctly, this is exactly what he is struggling to understand. Because if qualified real time coaches and managers do not understand FM, and thus fail to set up usefull tactics based on basic principles of football and tactical understanding, then FM has failed.

How in the heavens name can anyone who is playing this game for the first time know that you need team instruction combinations such as short passing, low crosses, and narrow width just to be able to get cut-back crosses? Only those who have played this game for thousands of hours, read all the topics on the forum and watched countless youtube clips of Rashidi knows such things.

I understand very well the frustration of the topic starter.

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Those presets are not tactics to just use out of the box.  They are a starting point, something to change and adapt as circumstances require

People won staright promotions with out of the box Gegenpress.  

[dolph11]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Re-read my previous posts.  Those presets are not tactics to just use out of the box.  They are a starting point, something to change and adapt as circumstances require.

That's what needs more clarity in game.  There may or may not be a need to change the presets to something "better" but if you use them in unintended ways (which as I said before isn't your fault) and fail to adapt to the situation, the preset is not the only thing at fault.

Ok, let's break it down a little. As a starter, that preset tactic is not far from what I would look at in real life. Defend deep, don't engage too much in order to keep shape and not become open. Does that make sense?

 

So, it's not working, it now becomes a lottery. Close down more? With a Catenaccio style? Trying to fortify the goal? Makes no sense! Raise the defensive line? In a Catenaccio? Trying to allow as little space as possible? Makes no sense! I don't see where I could have won without choosing options that absolutely go against the descriptions given.

[Experienced Defender]

12 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

eventhough FM is a "simulation" game, there should be plug and play presets for people who just want to turn on the game, play a few matches and enjoy the 3D or transfer market rather then tinkering around with their tactics all day

But there already are plenty of plug'n'play tactics available for download for people who don't want - or don't know how - to create and tweak theirs own. The entire section exists in the forum that is full of such tactics, so everybody is free to use them if they want. 

[CARRERA]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

But there already are plenty of plug'n'play tactics available for download for people who don't want - or don't know how - to create and tweak theirs own. The entire section exists in the forum that is full of such tactics, so everybody is free to use them if they want. 

Yeah, but thats why i said with a wink, that it might be a feature theres no plug n play tactic provided by SI as they want people to join fm communities. But if you are not that kind of person who is looking up stuff in the internet you are somehow let down while it would be easy for SI to provide at least some kind of proper tactic. Or if they want to involve the communty more they could provide community tactics with a straight link to, i dodnt know, the forums, the workshop, some community site or whatever. 

I mean, FM is also available for mobiles as well as consoles. I dont know if these kind of people want to look through a forum or community page.

The tactics provided dont even have to be very complex like tiki-taka, gegenpress or cattenaccio or whatever. just some basic tactics, like a balanced one, a more attacking minded and a rather cautious.

Edited May 3, 2021 by CARRERA

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

The tactics provided dont even have to be very complex like tiki-taka, gegenpress or cattenaccio or whatever. just some basic tactics, like a balanced one, a more attacking minded and a rather cautious

Well, I agree with that, but then you are not actually talking about plug'n'play tactics. Because PnP tactics are neither basic/simple nor balanced, but the exact opposite (totally senseless and with even more overkill than FM presets  )

[herne79]

25 minutes ago, Mitja said:

People won staright promotions with out of the box Gegenpress.  

Which is also "absurd", to keep it on topic .

21 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Ok, let's break it down a little. As a starter, that preset tactic is not far from what I would look at in real life. Defend deep, don't engage too much in order to keep shape and not become open. Does that make sense?

 

So, it's not working, it now becomes a lottery. Close down more? With a Catenaccio style? Trying to fortify the goal? Makes no sense! Raise the defensive line? In a Catenaccio? Trying to allow as little space as possible? Makes no sense! I don't see where I could have won without choosing options that absolutely go against the descriptions given.

I agree, it doesn't seem to make sense.  Just as doing nothing when something obviously isn't working also makes no sense.  But then again would relieving some pressure by not being quite so passive really go against the spirit of the system?  You also need to consider your players and your opponents because you'll get into a downward spiral: constant pressure, defenders wilt creating more pressure; opponents apply pressure, they get more and more confident; you play worse and worse, they play better and better.  

I'll also add I think it's extremely badly labelled as "Catenaccio" as Catenaccio isn't possible to recreate in FM - you can't even have the right formation.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Which is also "absurd", to keep it on topic .

I agree, it doesn't seem to make sense.  Just as doing nothing when something obviously isn't working also makes no sense.  But then again would relieving some pressure by not being quite so passive really go against the spirit of the system?  You also need to consider your players and your opponents because you'll get into a downward spiral: constant pressure, defenders wilt creating more pressure; opponents apply pressure, they get more and more confident; you play worse and worse, they play better and better.  

I'll also add I think it's extremely badly labelled as "Catenaccio" as Catenaccio isn't possible to recreate in FM - you can't even have the right formation.

And if anything to be pedantic according to Helenio Herrera, you know the guy who popularized Catenaccio, it's not even supposed to be purely defensive tactic but rather an ultra clicinal, counterattacking strategy. There is huge difference between park the bus and Catenaccio. And in the game that preset looks more like park the bus rather than Catenaccio. But that has been the problem for a long time. Catenaccio has always been misunderstood.

Edited May 3, 2021 by crusadertsar

[CARRERA]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, I agree with that, but then you are not actually talking about plug'n'play tactics. Because PnP tactics are neither basic/simple nor balanced, but the exact opposite (totally senseless and with even more overkill than FM presets  )

Well, I really dont agree on the PnP part. You can create a very basic tactic without being too fancy in terms of roles and instructions, which can work quite well for any team. They simply dont replicate a very specific style, as they are "basic". Im not talking about tactics which make you win the championship by any means no matter whats your team.

[dolph11]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Which is also "absurd", to keep it on topic .

I agree, it doesn't seem to make sense.  Just as doing nothing when something obviously isn't working also makes no sense.  But then again would relieving some pressure by not being quite so passive really go against the spirit of the system?  You also need to consider your players and your opponents because you'll get into a downward spiral: constant pressure, defenders wilt creating more pressure; opponents apply pressure, they get more and more confident; you play worse and worse, they play better and better.  

I'll also add I think it's extremely badly labelled as "Catenaccio" as Catenaccio isn't possible to recreate in FM - you can't even have the right formation.

I think we are kind of in agreement somewhere along the lines here without it being obvious. But, imagine in real life, Widzew Lodz v Liverpool, there's no way you'd want to engage anything more than passively. Keep the lines and very few passing lanes open. That's what Catenaccio is and it's exactly what it should do if it says it in the preset. It does the complete opposite. Due to this, it leads to much confusion regarding tactics.

[dolph11]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

And if anything to be pedantic according Helenio Herrera, you know the guy who popularized Catenaccio, it's not even supposed to be defesive tactic but rather an ultra clicinal, counterattacking strategy. There is huge difference between park the bus and Catenaccio. And in the game that preset looks more like park the bus rather than Catenaccio. But that has been the problem for a long time. Catenaccio has always been misunderstood.

Catenaccio was totally reliant upon tactically incredible defensive structure and usually a lone-striker who was there as THE outlet. It's one of the reasons the original Ronaldo was so amazing he was able to be so successful in that system, a system in which Dennis Bergkamp, for example (an outstanding player), wasn't quite as successful and left for England. But, make no mistake about it, it was built on defensive solidity.

Edited May 3, 2021 by dolph11

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Catenaccio was totally reliant upon tactically incredible defensive structure and usually a lone-striker who was there as THE outlet. It's one of the reasons the original Ronaldo was so amazing he was able to be so successful in that system, a system in which Dennis Bergkamp, for example (an outstanding player), wasn't quite as successful and left for England. But, make no mistake about it, it was built on defensive solidity.

But it's not the same as park the bus like the preset makes our to be. That was my point.