Still too easy?

[Mars_Blackmon]

Who said they were downloading tactics and restarting?

[GreenTriangle]

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Why don't you just leave anyone to play their game as they want? It's very narrow minded to ask other people to stop using almost every game mechanic available (and call it cheating), to make the game more difficult. 

We don't even know yet wether SI claims FM to be realistic or not. Being a Simulation =/= a realistic game. It just tells you, that there is a simulation of certain things behind the scenes and not just throwing a dice. Maybe the primary goal of SI is to create a game that is interesting for a very broad audience, which (who guessed it) is most likely interested in playing a video game rather than simulating real football. I mean, SI decided to release FM for consoles and mobiles. What do you expect?

Who doesn't let them play the way they want ? The problem is they use all the tools available in the game and say it's "too easy." Who forces them to transfer very good players? Don't tell me the game forces them to do that. Don't tell me they can't play if they don't transfer very good players. A very good (human) player does not need a collection of exceptional players or a very extensive scouting network.  Are we talking about a game? Yes, it's a game. Anyone can play however they want. But if a player has fun using all these tools available in the game, it does not mean that player is playing on a high level of difficulty. On the contrary, this level is low. Who said playing on a lower level of difficulty is forbidden or shameful? It's just a personal choice. But that doesn't mean the game would be "too easy."

Quote

Who said they were downloading tactics and restarting?

Who said this game can not be configured to be very difficult ... if someone really wants to do this ?

Quote

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Why are there so many Wonderkids? Why is there no mechanic to stop them to move to a low potential club? Why is there a scouting database, including all players? Why can you even see their attributes when scouted, shouldnt they always be hidden like "hidden attributes"? - Because SI wants the game to be (easy) that way.

Why do you think a human player is forced to use those wonderkids ? Why do you think a human player is forced to use an extensive scouting network ? Why do you think a human player is forced to "see" all those tributes ? It's a personal option. Maybe some people really likes to play on a lower difficulty. What did you say earlier?  "Why don't you just leave anyone to play their game as they want?". 

Edited May 10, 2021 by GreenTriangle

[Mars_Blackmon]

You’re arguments doesn’t make any sense. 
 

You’re generalizing play styles. I suggest that you read the thread from the beginning.

[CARRERA]

49 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Who said they were downloading tactics and restarting?

@Tyburnsaid that

8 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Who doesn't let them play the way they want ? The problem is they use all the tools available in the game and say it's "too easy."

Well, its a rhetorical question, as you obviously cant do anything about how someone plays the game anyway. But still, why cant someone complain about the game being too easy, just because he is using the features of the game in a non-exploit way? 

12 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Don't tell me the game forces them to do that. Don't tell me they can't play if they don't transfer very good players. A very good (human) player does not need a collection of exceptional players or a very extensive scouting network. 

Of course you dont have to, but why cant the game be challenging when playing with your favourite mbappe? Does PSG IRL win the CL every year just because they bought Neymar and Mbappe years ago? no - they obviously dont. What about scouting? Many people love scouting and like to explore new players. All this, transfers and scouting is part of a football manager immersion. So from my point view it is not acceptable to demand your (SI's) community to play without those features.

Therefore i said, that certain mechanics have to be available for FM as an option by default, like the "hidden attributes thing", or a more aggressive AI Transfermarket including your players insist on forcing the transfer, especially if you are a lower reputation/smaller club, and other stuff.

The point is: not the player has to be forced to restrict himself, but the game needs to offer options to restrict the player (or at least more than it has now)

And lets be honest, even if you restrict yourself by not looking up wonderkinds or buying the best player in the game, the game right now is still way too easy and you really have to do some super fancy stuff in lower leagues or whatever. 

[GreenTriangle]

37 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

But still, why cant someone complain about the game being too easy, just because he is using the features of the game in a non-exploit way?

So anyone who sees 50 pork steaks on a table ... will eat all 50 just because they're available to him? Or will he possibly eat one or two because he doesn't need more? It's not forbidden to eat 50 steaks ... but would you do it if they were yours?

37 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

The point is: not the player has to be forced to restrict himself, but the game needs to offer options to restrict the player (or at least more than it has now)

And lets be honest, even if you restrict yourself by not looking up wonderkinds or buying the best player in the game, the game right now is still way too easy and you really have to do some super fancy stuff in lower leagues or whatever. 

Why ? Can't an experienced player refrain from using those tools ? Only a child can not refrain from eating excess candy. Don't you want to say that a good and experienced player is not able to control himself ?!? From what point of view is the game easy? No matter what kind of players you use and no matter what tactical configurations you use, is it just as easy ? 

45 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Of course you dont have to, but why cant the game be challenging when playing with your favourite mbappe? Does PSG IRL win the CL every year just because they bought Neymar and Mbappe years ago? no - they obviously dont.

I ask once again: no matter what players you use and no matter what tactical configuration you use, will you inevitably win Champions League very easily if you'll play with PSG?

[CARRERA]

42 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

So anyone who sees 50 pork steaks on a table ... will eat all 50 just because they're available to him? Or will he possibly eat one or two because he doesn't need more? It's not forbidden to eat 50 steaks ... but would you do it if they were yours?

That doesn't make sense at all and im not quite sure wether it makes sense to argue with you, as you obviously dont (want to) get the point. Its not like you buy 50 steaks, you buy just one. the iteration on this years football manager. But you are telling people to throw away 50% of it, for it being tasty and juicy. Having fun does not exclude having a challenge, vice versa. And as I already mentioned, unles you exploit the game, you can expect the game to be appropriately difficult or at least have some options to do so.

You also have to understand, that playing without transfers, without scouting, in a league you dont like, with a team you dont even know including players you dont even know, might not be fun for everyone. But they still can expect to an appropriate difficulty.

42 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Why ? Can't an experienced player refrain from using those tools ? Only a child can not refrain from eating excess candy. Don't you want to say that a good and experienced player is not able to control himself ?!?

Its not about if someone can "control himself", its about WHY would he? If you buy candy for 5 bucks, would you throw away half of them? NO you want to eat them, thats why you bought them.

42 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

I ask once again: no matter what players you use and no matter what tactical configuration you use, will you inevitably win Champions League very easily if you'll play with PSG?

I never played PSG, it was just an example. But i can tell you that im most likely getting bored within 3-5 Season at one team. Thats enough time to achieve a signifficant higher and unrealistic level with any team, depending on your starting point. And thats without hijacking wonderkids (i only buy what my scouts come up with), reloading the game, downloading tactics (i create my own), i even hand over staff, negotiations, media and training to my ass man. I dont use shouts or talk to players (unless i have to).

Please dont tell me this game is hard, even when restricting yourself. I already trew most of my candy away and only ate 1 steak. dont make me waste my last lollipop.

But lets leave it at that point, it doesnt lead to anything.

Edited May 10, 2021 by CARRERA

[GreenTriangle]

39 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Its not like you buy 50 steaks, you buy just one. the iteration on this years football manager. But you are telling people to throw away 50% of it, for it being tasty and juicy. Having fun does not exclude having a challenge, vice versa. And as I already mentioned, unles you exploit the game, you can expect the game to be appropriately difficult or at least have some options to do so.

You buy a game designed for countless categories of players, not for you personally. It contains tools that you may not need, but that others may need. Why do you think you should use absolutely what others use? Why not strictly select what you need? Is it too ... hard ?

The game contains those options you are talking about, only you think that if a tool is included in the game then ... you must use it. Nobody forces you to use it !

41 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

You also have to understand, that playing without transfers, without scouting, in a league you dont like, with a team you dont even know including players you dont even know, might not be fun for everyone. But they still can expect to an appropriate difficulty.

You do not understand. You can play with as many transfers as you want and with which players you want. You just don't need to exaggerate. You don't need to collect world class players or invent extraordinary tactical configurations. And if you do, then it's normal to get very good results ... but you have nothing to complain about. You yourself have chosen this path. It's not the game's fault.

45 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Its not about if someone can "control himself", its about WHY would he? If you buy candy for 5 bucks, would you throw away half of them? NO you want to eat them, thats why you bought them.

Why do you think a good player is - by definition - a person who has to "eat" everything he buys, whether he is hungry or not? A good player always knows how to select so as to obtain maximum satisfaction strictly based on his options. He doesn't need to use all the tools available in the game to get that satisfaction.

48 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

But i can tell you that im most likely getting bored within 3-5 Season at one team.

Yes, you got bored because you used all the tools that the game makes available to a player who wants to play on a low difficulty. Who is to blame for using them? What would you do if the game had degrees of difficulty? Would you play on the "very easy" difficulty just because "you bought the game and as long as this game includes this difficulty it will be normal for you to use it"?

51 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Please dont tell me this game is hard, even when restricting yourself. I already trew most of my candy away and only ate 1 steak. dont make me waste my last lollipop.

Please don't tell me this game is easy if you don't use all these tools. As an idea, what do you think about these dozens of parameters that characterize each player? Can we assume you have a built-in CPU that can perfectly predict the result of combining those parameters in a certain situation ?

52 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

But lets leave it at that point, it doesnt lead to anything.

I have a similar opinion. You just said (and repeated!) that you would have played on the easy difficulty if you had bought the game and it would have included this difficulty. Because you can't accept the idea of buying something and not using a part of what you bought. Right? you said it ! Is there anything else to say?

[glengarry224]

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

The point is: not the player has to be forced to restrict himself, but the game needs to offer options to restrict the player (or at least more than it has now)

 

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

But i can tell you that im most likely getting bored within 3-5 Season at one team. Thats enough time to achieve a signifficant higher and unrealistic level with any team, depending on your starting point.

Please dont tell me this game is hard, even when restricting yourself. I already trew most of my candy away and only ate 1 steak. dont make me waste my last lollipop.

Agree 100% with these points.  It happens to me over and over.  I quit my saves within 3-5 seasons. 

To me, there is a fundamental difference between setting up the game so that it's harder to win -- for example, using the editor to give my opponents more money, better coaching and better scouting -- versus stopping myself from doing good things for my team (i.e. dumping).  'Oh yeah, this young player is within my budget, fits my tactic and has a great personality, but I won't sign him just to make it harder to win.'  If you're playing chess against a weaker opponent, even a weak AI, are you going to 'not take her queen' just to increase the difficulty level?  Or play better opponents?  I have no interest in 'not trying to win'.  I can try to make up my own rules and use skins to increase difficulty but I'd prefer that SI insert a difficulty level.

Edited May 10, 2021 by glengarry224
bad grammar

[CARRERA]

14 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Yes, you got bored because you used all the tools that the game makes available to a player who wants to play on a low difficulty.

Read again, I already exclude major parts of the game and it still is not challenging.

14 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

As an idea, what do you think about these dozens of parameters that characterize each player? Can we assume you have a built-in CPU that can perfectly predict the result of combining those parameters in a certain situation ?

I don’t even understand what that means

14 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Is there anything else to say?

Yes, one last thing. How would you approach a difficult playing style at FM21. A playing style that still allows the player to fully immerse as a football manager at a first league team. Maybe I just didnt found the correct Formular yet.

Edited May 10, 2021 by CARRERA

[GreenTriangle]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Read again, I already exclude major parts of the game and it still is not challenging.

But it would certainly be "more challenging" if these restrictions would be imposed on you by the game itself, right ?

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

I don’t even understand what that means

I know. And that's why I wonder why you find the game so "easy".

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Yes, one last thing. How would you approach a difficult playing style at FM21. A playing style that still allows the player to fully immerse as a football manager at a first league team. Maybe I just didnt found the correct Formular yet.

More exactly ? What is missing (or what is too much) in such a way that immersion is not possible ? As an idea, how many minutes (on average) do you need to play a game ? What view mode do you use? 3D, 2D, only commentary ?

Edited May 11, 2021 by GreenTriangle

[Mars_Blackmon]

So green turtle expects me to not use the transfer market and only sign players from the youth academy to make the game more challenging. 
 

How ridiculous does that sound? You want a user to pretty much not use an important aspect of the game because the game makes it pretty easy to get good players. I don’t compute how that is the user’s fault.

[GreenTriangle]

Lol. Does using the transfer market necessarily involve collecting much better players than the other teams in the league have? And then what do you want? Do you want drastic restrictions on the possibility (for the human player) to transfer very good players ? Here's what your friend Carrera says :

Quote

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Maybe the primary goal of SI is to create a game that is interesting for a very broad audience, which (who guessed it) is most likely interested in playing a video game rather than simulating real football.

I hope you agree with him. So, you claim most FM players can't wait for these restrictions you want. Or ... maybe you don't really want such restrictions ? But what do you think will happen if Ai is "taught" to be very aggressive on the transfer market ?

[CARRERA]

4 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

More exactly ? What is missing (or what is too much) in such a way that immersion is not possible ?

There is nothing missing at the game, I was just interested in how you would set up „a hard game“ when looking to play with a first league Team without loosing that immersion. What would you restrict yourself from and how would you handle certain things?

4 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

As an idea, how many minutes (on average) do you need to play a game ? What view mode do you use? 3D, 2D, only commentary ?

Im playing 3D on extended or comprehensive highlights. But I can’t see how that does affect difficulty in any way. 

1 hour ago, GreenTriangle said:

So, you claim most FM players can't wait for these restrictions you want. Or ... maybe you don't really want such restrictions ?

Nobody said to restrict all players by default. Some people just would like to have certain options available to increase their games difficulty, what’s wrong about that? 

[twattyatkins]

I'm about 2 games away from being sacked as Spennymoor Town manager 4 months into the game.

No it's not too easy.

[SCCP1910]

On 08/05/2021 at 17:40, hefewe1zen said:

I don't use any tools, neither any downloaded tactics. I haven't reloaded a single time this season. It's not that overpowering, 4th and 4th in my first two seasons, promoted via playoffs but League One is much easier for some reason.

 

Tbh, that's entirely realistic, Luton and Burton managed to get double promotions from L2 to the Championship in recent years.

[SCCP1910]

On 09/05/2021 at 15:01, laurentius82 said:

There is a solution to the game being too easy. It's called The Many Steves Challenge:

Enjoying my save a lot, it's actually a challenge to get promoted from the Vanarama North when you're only allowed to have people called Steve at your club.  Still we are overperforming though and looks like we'll finally be able to get promoted in the 3rd season.

Missed a golden opportunity to start at Stevenage...

[laurentius82]

1 hour ago, SCCP1910 said:

Missed a golden opportunity to start at Stevenage...

Steve FC is based in Stevenage of course. Moneybags Stevenage FC are our bitter rivals.

[Platinum]

5 hours ago, SCCP1910 said:

Tbh, that's entirely realistic, Luton and Burton managed to get double promotions from L2 to the Championship in recent years.

Lot's of people forget this, quite a few clubs have done this.

[FrazT]

OK, Guys

This thread has been open for 4 and a half months and has been slowly going round in circles for some time now and veering well off topic.

Please therefore keep it tightly on topic or the thread will be closed and we can all move on.

[Outrospective]

On 10/05/2021 at 10:52, Travis Bickle said:

To be honest, for anyone who finds the game easy, I recommend starting unemployed.

I think it's the only 'realistic' way to start the game. You can pick your own coaching badges/reputation depending on what kind of team you want to start with, but it forces you out of your comfort zone, often into leagues and clubs you are unfamiliar with. 

Starting say Semi-Pro with a UEFA A Licence (the minimum you need to manage lower leagues iirc) forces you into jobs you won't get everything your way, and will really have to micromanage morale also trusting your scouts/DoF for signings. 

Worth considering imo. 

This. Although judging by the reddit, people generally do not know that there are other leagues but English ones.

[laurentius82]

6 hours ago, FrazT said:

OK, Guys

This thread has been open for 4 and a half months and has been slowly going round in circles for some time now and veering well off topic.

Please therefore keep it tightly on topic or the thread will be closed and we can all move on.

There is a reason this thread is going on and on. This is the most glaring issue in the game and it needs to be discussed and addressed. 

[laurentius82]

On 10/05/2021 at 23:59, CARRERA said:

@Tyburnsaid that

Of course you dont have to, but why cant the game be challenging when playing with your favourite mbappe? Does PSG IRL win the CL every year just because they bought Neymar and Mbappe years ago? no - they obviously dont. What about scouting? Many people love scouting and like to explore new players. All this, transfers and scouting is part of a football manager immersion. So from my point view it is not acceptable to demand your (SI's) community to play without those features.

Therefore i said, that certain mechanics have to be available for FM as an option by default, like the "hidden attributes thing", or a more aggressive AI Transfermarket including your players insist on forcing the transfer, especially if you are a lower reputation/smaller club, and other stuff.

The point is: not the player has to be forced to restrict himself, but the game needs to offer options to restrict the player (or at least more than it has now)

And lets be honest, even if you restrict yourself by not looking up wonderkinds or buying the best player in the game, the game right now is still way too easy and you really have to do some super fancy stuff in lower leagues or whatever. 

Exactly this. I really fail to understand what is the point of playing at all if you can't look for the best available transfers and compose the best possible the tactics for your team just in order not overpower the poor AI. Transfers and tactics is (at least to me) what the whole game is about. What there be left to play? Might just as well call it Football Mismanager then.

[XaW]

There is one key aspect that most people seem to be missing, this is not only a game for hard core tactical geniuses who can beat the game blindfolded in a drunken stupor. It's also a game for the masses who like to take on their favourite team and win some matches and be happy.

Have you guys seen all the "the AI are cheating"-, and "my tactic works, why do I lose"-threads popping up around the place? The reason for that is because the game is too complicated, or they are misunderstanding, or that they just want an easier game where they can win a couple of matches and have fun. Not everyone thinks of a major challenge when they want something "fun".

So SI have to cater to all these types of users in a base game and the balance in itself is pretty good. The issue is when someone thinks it's too easy while at the same time uses all the resources they can find online. Such as tactics, shortlists, guides, etc. That's like saying a puzzle game is too easy when you are sitting with the walkthrough next to you! Of course you can make the game easy by doing that, and that's why limiting yourself is part of making it more challenging. There are millions of ways to make single player games easier, and there is a reason why strategy guides and walkthroughs are out there, it's because someone just want to play it without the challenge.

All of that is easy to forget for us here at the forum, since most of us have a much higher interest in the game than the average user. And that's also why you see people in here suggesting ways of limiting yourself when playing, simply to challenge yourself in ways you haven't. That's the whole reason why many games have community initiated challenge runs, speed runs, or in any way beat the game without using X. It's all about replayability when you really like the game, but the base game is too easy.

Those are just a few of my points in the whole debate about the game being too hard or too easy.

[laurentius82]

20 minutes ago, XaW said:

There is one key aspect that most people seem to be missing, this is not only a game for hard core tactical geniuses who can beat the game blindfolded in a drunken stupor. It's also a game for the masses who like to take on their favourite team and win some matches and be happy.

Have you guys seen all the "the AI are cheating"-, and "my tactic works, why do I lose"-threads popping up around the place? The reason for that is because the game is too complicated, or they are misunderstanding, or that they just want an easier game where they can win a couple of matches and have fun. Not everyone thinks of a major challenge when they want something "fun".

So SI have to cater to all these types of users in a base game and the balance in itself is pretty good. The issue is when someone thinks it's too easy while at the same time uses all the resources they can find online. Such as tactics, shortlists, guides, etc. That's like saying a puzzle game is too easy when you are sitting with the walkthrough next to you! Of course you can make the game easy by doing that, and that's why limiting yourself is part of making it more challenging. There are millions of ways to make single player games easier, and there is a reason why strategy guides and walkthroughs are out there, it's because someone just want to play it without the challenge.

All of that is easy to forget for us here at the forum, since most of us have a much higher interest in the game than the average user. And that's also why you see people in here suggesting ways of limiting yourself when playing, simply to challenge yourself in ways you haven't. That's the whole reason why many games have community initiated challenge runs, speed runs, or in any way beat the game without using X. It's all about replayability when you really like the game, but the base game is too easy.

Those are just a few of my points in the whole debate about the game being too hard or too easy.

That is all true, although I'd still say the game is too easy even for the more casual gamer, not just tactical geniuses (which I certainly don't count myself as),  especially if they start with a big team. I also think SI should provide more within-game options to make the game harder/easier, so that the only option isn't to deliberately make only bad transfers and tactics.  

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

There is one key aspect that most people seem to be missing, this is not only a game for hard core tactical geniuses who can beat the game blindfolded in a drunken stupor. It's also a game for the masses who like to take on their favourite team and win some matches and be happy.

Have you guys seen all the "the AI are cheating"-, and "my tactic works, why do I lose"-threads popping up around the place? The reason for that is because the game is too complicated, or they are misunderstanding, or that they just want an easier game where they can win a couple of matches and have fun. Not everyone thinks of a major challenge when they want something "fun".

So SI have to cater to all these types of users in a base game and the balance in itself is pretty good. The issue is when someone thinks it's too easy while at the same time uses all the resources they can find online. Such as tactics, shortlists, guides, etc. That's like saying a puzzle game is too easy when you are sitting with the walkthrough next to you! Of course you can make the game easy by doing that, and that's why limiting yourself is part of making it more challenging. There are millions of ways to make single player games easier, and there is a reason why strategy guides and walkthroughs are out there, it's because someone just want to play it without the challenge.

All of that is easy to forget for us here at the forum, since most of us have a much higher interest in the game than the average user. And that's also why you see people in here suggesting ways of limiting yourself when playing, simply to challenge yourself in ways you haven't. That's the whole reason why many games have community initiated challenge runs, speed runs, or in any way beat the game without using X. It's all about replayability when you really like the game, but the base game is too easy.

Those are just a few of my points in the whole debate about the game being too hard or too easy.

The problem is though is that you can have that success with doing the very minimal. You don’t need any of that nor do you even have to dive into any analysis in the game to figure out what’s wrong with your tactic currently. 
 

Sure there are people who just suck at making a tactic or those guys who come on here to complain after losing 3 games at straight. I don’t thing I’ve ever seen multiple threads about someone complains that they can’t win at all. It’s always “I had more shots and got cheated” on this specific game. Meanwhile the person in question is leading the league in points.

 

I’m confident that the casual guys who want instant success are those guys who download tactics or get them from youtube. I’m not sure if people who wants a challenge are actually doing that. That would be a contradiction. It would be like reading a strategy guide while saying the game isn’t challenging.

 

There is a reason people are saying that the game have meaningless fluff, it’s because you can pretty much ignore 50% of it. 

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, laurentius82 said:

I also think SI should provide more within-game options to make the game harder/easier, so that the only option isn't to deliberately make only bad transfers and tactics.

Yeah it’s all about this. the Game might be balanced for a broad audience and that is totally fine as it allows SI to further develop the game and make it even better. 

But some ingame options would be really nice.

[Tyburn]

The game has always had the ability to be modded and skinned. It also has vast amounts of options that the user can impose on themselves. I don’t see SI wanting to add “difficulty” options when the very active community can do it for them, leaving them to concentrate on the HUGE amount of other elements that make up the game.

A more challenging and dynamic option for AI settings would be welcomed by me however, as that is simply something none of us can alter at present. Although the complexity of this wish strikes me as being something highly unlikely to be implemented any time soon.

[Mars_Blackmon]

21 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

The game has always had the ability to be modded and skinned. It also has vast amounts of options that the user can impose on themselves. I don’t see SI wanting to add “difficulty” options when the very active community can do it for them, leaving them to concentrate on the HUGE amount of other elements that make up the game.

A more challenging and dynamic option for AI settings would be welcomed by me however, as that is simply something none of us can alter at present. Although the complexity of this wish strikes me as being something highly unlikely to be implemented any time soon.

Not everyone knows how to mod and skin. Some users just want the ability to hop on to the game and just enjoy it, not wait for another user to create something months later.

 

SI created the in game editor to cut out the 3rd party so why can’t they add simple options like “increased injury frequency” to cut out the need for a 3rd party mod?

 

not to mention that the pre game editor was terrible this year…

[XaW]

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The problem is though is that you can have that success with doing the very minimal. You don’t need any of that nor do you even have to dive into any analysis in the game to figure out what’s wrong with your tactic currently. 

Sure there are people who just suck at making a tactic or those guys who come on here to complain after losing 3 games at straight. I don’t thing I’ve ever seen multiple threads about someone complains that they can’t win at all. It’s always “I had more shots and got cheated” on this specific game. Meanwhile the person in question is leading the league in points.

I’m confident that the casual guys who want instant success are those guys who download tactics or get them from youtube. I’m not sure if people who wants a challenge are actually doing that. That would be a contradiction. It would be like reading a strategy guide while saying the game isn’t challenging.

There is a reason people are saying that the game have meaningless fluff, it’s because you can pretty much ignore 50% of it. 

The reason you don't see much of that here in GD is because we mods do our job!

On a more serious note, there are loads of threads all the time regarding this, but most are referred to the tactics section to get help there. So if you are in doubt have a look in the discussion part of it. I've even seen threads where people complain about losing with downloaded tactics as that should be impossible... never expect everyone on the internet to make sense!

The question remains though, how do SI make the game harder for those who want and still keep it fun for those who already find it challenging? And at a cost that will give enough return on the investment? I don't know, but if you have any clear ideas, I'd say to suggest them in the correct sub forum for it since I would like to see ways of making the game harder.

[laurentius82]

18 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

The game has always had the ability to be modded and skinned. It also has vast amounts of options that the user can impose on themselves. 

Self-imposed restrictions just aren't good enough, because we have to eliminate precisely the factors that are at the core of what makes this game enjoyable. If we can't do transfers and we can't do tactics, what is left?

[Tyburn]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not everyone knows how to mod and skin. Some users just want the ability to hop on to the game and just enjoy it, not wait for another user to create something months later.

True. Although seeing as the game has always been designed this way, why would SI include these 'time consuming options to implement' as vanilla? They WANT us to create our OWN versions of the game.

[Mars_Blackmon]

23 minutes ago, XaW said:

The reason you don't see much of that here in GD is because we mods do our job!

On a more serious note, there are loads of threads all the time regarding this, but most are referred to the tactics section to get help there. So if you are in doubt have a look in the discussion part of it. I've even seen threads where people complain about losing with downloaded tactics as that should be impossible... never expect everyone on the internet to make sense!

The question remains though, how do SI make the game harder for those who want and still keep it fun for those who already find it challenging? And at a cost that will give enough return on the investment? I don't know, but if you have any clear ideas, I'd say to suggest them in the correct sub forum for it since I would like to see ways of making the game harder.

But that’s tactical problems though. Over the last decade SI have made an effort to make tactic creations easier and easier and that’s fine. It’s also not really the problem with the game though. For starters, SI can make the game more challenging by making attributes matter more. Plug and play tactics are ok but you shouldn’t be able to put a circle into a square peg and get it to work. That’s where attributes come in at.

 

also fixing some of the match engine exploits especially the ones that are used unintentionally as some would like to call it.

[Tyburn]

32 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Self-imposed restrictions just aren't good enough, because we have to eliminate precisely the factors that are at the core of what makes this game enjoyable. If we can't do transfers and we can't do tactics, what is left?

I've personally made a ton of restrictions this year to make the game more challenging, as is our choice. It's helped a bit, but the AI will always be the AI unfortunately. Tactics I continue to experiement and have good fun with. I've limited myself with transfers in the sense that I only have what my scouts bring me. Not actually a restriction at all.

It is impossible for the game to cater for everyone. Which is why SI continue to allow us to create our own version of it.

[Mars_Blackmon]

57 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

True. Although seeing as the game has always been designed this way, why would SI include these 'time consuming options to implement' as vanilla? They WANT us to create our OWN versions of the game.

So are you suggesting that FM is a sandbox rather than a simulation of being a football manager?

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

So are you suggesting that FM is a sandbox rather than a simulation of being a football manager?

I'm suggesting the game has the tools to go someway to making of it what you will.

[GreenTriangle]

2 hours ago, laurentius82 said:

Self-imposed restrictions just aren't good enough, because we have to eliminate precisely the factors that are at the core of what makes this game enjoyable. If we can't do transfers and we can't do tactics, what is left?

So, for you, "a more difficult game" means "I want to to be able to make any kind of transfers, no matter how unrealistic it would be" and "I want to be able to use any kind of tactical configurations, no matter how unrealistic it would be" . Right ? lol.

[GreenTriangle]

2 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not everyone knows how to mod and skin.

A lot of players know how to use something like this. A lot ! You admit you don't know. And because you don't know ... the game is "too easy". lol

Quote

2 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

not wait for another user to create something months later.

Why don't you create something like that? Ah, I forgot, you don't know ... ! And the game is "too easy".

Quote

3 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

You don’t need any of that nor do you even have to dive into any analysis in the game to figure out what’s wrong with your tactic currently.

Interestingly, in my game I really need that analysis. What game are you playing ? Definitely not FM.

Edited May 12, 2021 by GreenTriangle

[Mars_Blackmon]

16 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

A lot of players know how to use something like this. A lot ! You admit you don't know. And because you don't know ... the game is "too easy". lol

Why don't you create something like that? Ah, I forgot, you don't know ... ! And the game is "too easy".

Interestingly, in my game I really need that analysis. What game are you playing ? Definitely not FM.

You don’t make any sense.

[XaW]

Yeah, as @FrazT said earlier, this thread has run it's course now, so I'm locking it.

If you have any suggestion as to how to improve the game then please add it the suggestions forum, thanks.