FM and apple silicon

[solounamigo]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Smurf:

Yeh but what spec is the Windows machine? How much did you pay for it?

It's a custom build tower:

i7 9700k, GTX 1080Ti, 32 GB DDR4 RAM, 1 TB SSD -> I payed about 1200 euros

Edited January 4, 2021 by solounamigo

[Smurf]

33 minutes ago, solounamigo said:

It's a custom build tower:

i9 9700k, GTX 1080Ti, 32 GB DDR4 RAM, 1 TB SSD -> I payed about 1200 euros

Think you mean i7 9700k. 

And on the benchmarking threads the i7 9700k is outperforming the M1 processor

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vp32qrHivL-_auW9D0pp-F7ZvrvQlqtBgfcSOL8n5I/edit#gid=1041602144

 

[solounamigo]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Smurf:

Think you mean i7 9700k. 

And on the benchmarking threads the i7 9700k is outperforming the M1 processor

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vp32qrHivL-_auW9D0pp-F7ZvrvQlqtBgfcSOL8n5I/edit#gid=1041602144

 

Thanks, exactly. Yeah, well.. custom tower builds are always better than laptops. until you need some mobility and battery life. The M1 is the first gen.. so I think there will be some surprises (yeah, as you already said some part of the surprise will be the price )

Edited January 4, 2021 by solounamigo

[Smurf]

1 minute ago, solounamigo said:

Thanks, exactly. Yeah, well.. custom tower builds are always better than laptops. until you need some mobility and battery life. The M1 is the first gen.. so I think there will be some surprises (yeah, as you already said some part of the surprise will be the price )

AMD and Intel have new lines coming out - and with Apple you seem to only get the choice of the M1 processor.

At least if I do Windows PC/Laptop I can choose the processor that suits me. 

 

But I guess this is where Apple is winning - it's not confusing, you the computer, it's the same performance regardless.
With so many Windows laptop/pc makers - the choices are far too many and it's confusing for the customers. 

But on the other side, the choices are there for a lower price PC if you want to go that way. 

Being portable with a computer isn't always about having the most processing power or even the most amount of battery life. 

Being portable for a lot of people mean they want something they can use for an hour or two on a commute, or something like that. 

 

 

[kevhamster]

On 03/01/2021 at 12:24, jessejesster said:

@SmurfThe screengrab doesn't do it justice but it looks wavy like a 90's sega genesis game, super old school and the opposite of hd.

You can get a Ryzen 5 based laptop priced at £500 to get medium to high graphics settings.

[kevhamster]

On 03/01/2021 at 12:24, jessejesster said:

@SmurfThe screengrab doesn't do it justice but it looks wavy like a 90's sega genesis game, super old school and the opposite of hd.

*accidental double post*

Edited January 4, 2021 by kevhamster

[jessejesster]

Asking for a friend, which Apple Silicon unit would you get between these two?

I love@Smurf and I know he will say neither, get a PC, but I'm asking the Apple enthusiasts here, not you.

[Smurf]

1 hour ago, jessejesster said:

Asking for a friend, which Apple Silicon unit would you get between these two?

I love@Smurf and I know he will say neither, get a PC, but I'm asking the Apple enthusiasts here, not you.

The mac mini has more ram, but you will need a screen and keyboard mouse etc.

Other than that, they are the same.

[armandolanda]

1 hour ago, jessejesster said:

Asking for a friend, which Apple Silicon unit would you get between these two?

 

That's impossible to answer without additional info.

All depends on what you want to do with it. If you only let it sit on your desk, I'd say go with a mini. If you want to use it as a portable device too, I'd say go for the MBP. I guess they're pretty comparable performance wise. And remember, they both are awesome pieces of hardware  

[jessejesster]

Thanks guys. I mean, clearly it's for FM hence why I think the extra RAM might be good @smurf @armandolanda

[Harper]

2 minutes ago, jessejesster said:

Thanks guys. I mean, clearly it's for FM hence why I think the extra RAM might be good @smurf @armandolanda

RAM doesn't provide a significant improvement for FM. 8GB would be enough for FM and simultaneous web browsing, unless he's a Chrome sociopath that keeps a boatload of tabs open.

[kevhamster]

14 minutes ago, jessejesster said:

Thanks guys. I mean, clearly it's for FM hence why I think the extra RAM might be good @smurf @armandolanda

8GB is plenty for FM.

[craiigman]

12 hours ago, jessejesster said:

Asking for a friend, which Apple Silicon unit would you get between these two?

I love@Smurf and I know he will say neither, get a PC, but I'm asking the Apple enthusiasts here, not you.

I got the MacBook because I like to use it in bed, on the sofa, in the kitchen, all over the place. I don’t have a desk in house setup permanently, if I did I would have gone for the Mac Mini.

Other than that the performance is more or less the same, same internals, unless you are upgrading the RAM.

[Smurf]

10 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I got the MacBook because I like to use it in bed, on the sofa, in the kitchen, all over the place. I don’t have a desk in house setup permanently, if I did I would have gone for the Mac Mini.

Other than that the performance is more or less the same, same internals, unless you are upgrading the RAM.

The RAM of 8gb or 16gb is going to make minimal difference - it just means you can have more apps open - in terms of performance for FM it will be minimum. 

The limitation of RAM of 16gb is what would stop me getting it - as I use high end design apps, and require 32gb of RAM at least. 

*edit plus the design apps I use haven't been optimised for the M1 architecture.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Smurf

[kevhamster]

Thought this may be of interest.  Seems to just be rumours at the moment, but definitely on topic!

New more powerful variants of the M1 are apparently in the works.

https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/12-core-macbook-pro-3800060/

[jessejesster]

Great to know, thanks so much guys. Hopefully by the end of the month I can offer some benchmarking stats etc 

@Smurf, @craiigman, @kevhamster @harper

[Smurf]

4 hours ago, kevhamster said:

Thought this may be of interest.  Seems to just be rumours at the moment, but definitely on topic!

New more powerful variants of the M1 are apparently in the works.

https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/12-core-macbook-pro-3800060/

Doesn't surprise me. There will always be new tech in development. 

Apple get people into a trap of renewing their tech each year, "if you don't have the latest you're missing out" - and this is cohorted online by people who get the new tech and lambast others who didn't get it. It's a mean marketing game with Apple. 

I have a Galaxy S7 phone, and I got my wife the S20 (with an S21 to be reveiled in a week or two, so it's already nearly out of date).

But I used the S20 and whereas, it's nice, and sleek, my phone does all the exact same functions - or at least all the funcitons i need. 

I really got her the phone as I work from home these days and she commutes on the bus - which is working out great. So I bought her the new phone and some galaxy ear buds for the commute, as we used to drive up together, but it's cheaper to get the bus if it's just herself.

 

Moral of the story, i won't be upgrading my S7 until it literally won't start up, or I drop it and break something. The charging port already died, but I can still charge it wirelessly.

 

I'd hate to see all the people jumping on M1 1.0 and then a year later they dish out again for M1 2.0 - for the FOMO.

It's a dangerous game.  

And especicially just to play FM - as said by a few who got the M1 Apple Mac - a lot are only playing 5 or 6 leagues with a medium database, and laptop in the range of 600-800 would play that very comfortably, and the higher the price, the better the performance. 

 

Aside from those that want to travel/commute etc. the battery life is excellent and the performance is great. But I'd expect that after spending £999 on a base model. 

I'd say this is after giving Intel and AMD a slap up the backside now - and you can bet your bottom dollar that Apple have set a new bar of excellence and PC manufacturers and parts makers are going to be upping their game. 

 

 

 

 

[Harper]

 

4 hours ago, Smurf said:

I'd say this is after giving Intel and AMD a slap up the backside now - and you can bet your bottom dollar that Apple have set a new bar of excellence and PC manufacturers and parts makers are going to be upping their game. 

I bought a couple shares of AMD when it was around $10/share. Happy to see the competition!

The FOMO factor is real, but age has wisened me up a bit too. Funny how that works, FOMO was strong when the finances were strained, and fades as financial security grows.

[jessejesster]

On 13/12/2020 at 12:22, анонимный said:

Yeah, will do. I'm gonna go so deep in investigating its' performance don't you worry haha. 

It left China last Wednesday, 9th of December. I'm hoping to have it mid-week or by Friday at the latest.

This goes for you and anyone else lurking this thread - feel free to let me know if anyone has any requests of what you would like me to check out in regards to FM21 and I'll do my best to post it all on here.

Any updates on how it's going for you?

[jessejesster]

That was a good investment @Harper, I hope it's soaring for you!

PS Finally ordered my M1 MacMini, hoping to have it in a couple weeks!

[jessejesster]

What happened to all the M1 Enthusiasts? Too busy with your saves? Take care.

[Harper]

On 19/01/2021 at 19:12, jessejesster said:

What happened to all the M1 Enthusiasts? Too busy with your saves? Take care.

The holidays and starting on a new team at work has killed my playing time at the moment.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Anyone else getting an immediate crash when opening up the game since the Latest update?

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 26/01/2021 at 19:38, Mars_Blackmon said:

Anyone else getting an immediate crash when opening up the game since the Latest update?

False alarm, it was a corrupt database causing the crash.

[Nyron]

Really wish I hadn't opened this thread. Massively jealous as my 2015 MBP sounds like a spaceship taking off and the heat burns my hands, but is otherwise fine for everything else I use bar FM.

 

I hate the Windows vs Apple arguments. I would never deny there are better specs out there for the same price, but I love Apple's ecosystem and I've found massive performance issues with every PC I've ever owned after 18-24 months. Its personal preference at the end of the day.

[rich))]

42 minutes ago, Nyron said:

Really wish I hadn't opened this thread. Massively jealous as my 2015 MBP sounds like a spaceship taking off and the heat burns my hands, but is otherwise fine for everything else I use bar FM.

 

I hate the Windows vs Apple arguments. I would never deny there are better specs out there for the same price, but I love Apple's ecosystem and I've found massive performance issues with every PC I've ever owned after 18-24 months. Its personal preference at the end of the day.

I’m in the same boat, got the same MBP as you and like you say the sound from the fans is ridiculously loud to the point I can’t really play FM if my girlfriend is trying to watch TV in the same room. 
 

I’ve seen people getting £500-700 on eBay for the spec I’ve got so tempted to cash in and upgrade but unsure whether to stick with Apple or go back to a ‘normal’ laptop. 

[Smurf]

23 hours ago, Nyron said:

Really wish I hadn't opened this thread. Massively jealous as my 2015 MBP sounds like a spaceship taking off and the heat burns my hands, but is otherwise fine for everything else I use bar FM.

I hate the Windows vs Apple arguments. I would never deny there are better specs out there for the same price, but I love Apple's ecosystem and I've found massive performance

issues with every PC I've ever owned after 18-24 months. Its personal preference at the end of the day.

Not surprising - it's quite old and probably entering it's EOL.

Apples ecosystem isn't a good enough reason for me to start telling people to spend their hard earned cash on a computer that they can buy for less than half the price.

That's my only argument.

22 hours ago, rich)) said:

I’m in the same boat, got the same MBP as you and like you say the sound from the fans is ridiculously loud to the point I can’t really play FM if my girlfriend is trying to watch TV in the same room. 
 

I’ve seen people getting £500-700 on eBay for the spec I’ve got so tempted to cash in and upgrade but unsure whether to stick with Apple or go back to a ‘normal’ laptop. 

It depends what you want.

The Mac Book with the M1 chip is only available in the 13 inch models - if you're happy with that screensize then go for it.

You can buy a better computer for the same price with a 15/17 inch screen - but it would be a 'normal laptop'.

The game runs just as well on both - and you can still browse the web, shop online, watch  Netflix/Youtube etc.

Another huge disadvantage of the M1 Macs is that there is no support for a dedicated graphics card - and you're locked into unupgrabable RAM - if you buy the 8gb RAM Macbook 13 inch - you're stuck with 8gb RAM as it can't be upgraded - same with 16gb it's locked in and can't be changed. 

You can buy the MacMini - with the M1 chip - but same problems as the 13 inch model in terms of RAM and no support for dedicated graphics card - if you needed one - you can't have one - yet.

 

So it's up to you - if you want a 13 inch laptop - then the M1 chip is the best on the market.

If you want something larger go for the Mac Mini - but it's not portable.

Or go for the 15/17 inch laptop - with a similar processing effort - as much RAM as you want (16gb is plenty for most anyway - but an option for 32 is nice but not necessary unless you have specific requirements for more RAM) - and at least you can get a dedicated graphics card. 

All sounds good and clear and simple to me.

 

Nothing to do with ecosystems - or Apple vs Windows (I use both) - it's purely what suits you.

 

[jessejesster]

Hey guys, 3 or 4 days into my M1 MacMini lifestyle and wanted to check in.

Mostly, I just want to say how SEAMLESS the loading is. I've added more leagues than I can even think to click on just to see how it would go.

Saturday's do take about 2 minutes to load but otherwise, this thing flies. The fans have NEVER turned on. The Mini never gets hot. Never freezes. I advance time like a Time Operator.

HOWEVER, it is clear SI is not yet prepared for the M1. FM21 does crash.

When I was playing FM21 on my 2018 MBP the game crashed once in 2 months. On my M1 Mini it's already crashed 5 times in 3-4 days. Crashes that make you hit yourself for not saving.

Another HUGE issues is my facepacks have gone totally wonky. Sometimes all of the info will just disappear and I am left with empty pictures. I have to reset my config file and go through the same thing. This never happened on my intel based MBP. I think it's just another thing SI will have to sort out.

Also, the editor often doesn't work and I have to restart the game a few times before the editor comes back (I always play online and connected to steam so it's not an offline problem). Sometimes when I restart the game it messes up my facepacks which I highly value. So, a long way of saying it's not ideal for those who are really immersed in graphic folder additions (but it should be!).

@Smurf's point that holds water about the graphics card is true. Technically, the game does look better on my 2018 MBP with a great graphics card. But once the M2 or M3 introduce a better graphics card we won't have that problem. 

So, overall, it's amazing playing the game without my computer overheating, freezing during the ME, taking 10 minutes to advance a day etc. the M1 is a HUGE update for speed and overall computational processing. I would recommend it. It's also now on SI to sort some stuff out for future iterations and M1-M2 on FM22.

[Smurf]

12 minutes ago, jessejesster said:

 

@Smurf's point that holds water about the graphics card is true. Technically, the game does look better on my 2018 MBP with a great graphics card. But once the M2 or M3 introduce a better graphics card we won't have that problem. 

Good overview - and let me say it's mostly down to the processor - as other Macs would have had lower end intel chip - and those that had the higher end i7 or i9 it has been reported from the start that the performance is similar.

Anway - the thing about the graphics - it might be true - it might not. 

We'll have to wait and see. I'd say it's true.  But not really sure.

[Smurf]

2 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Good overview - and let me say it's mostly down to the processor - as other Macs would have had lower end intel chip - and those that had the higher end i7 or i9 it has been reported from the start that the performance is similar.

Anway - the thing about the graphics - it might be true - it might not. 

We'll have to wait and see. I'd say it's true.  But not really sure.

What I meant to say (sorry was short on time) but I think the M2 chip will have better graphics - but we'll have to wait and see - I'd imagine other integrated graphics are going to up their game too now.

It will be a never-ending battle.

[kevhamster]

40 minutes ago, Smurf said:

What I meant to say (sorry was short on time) but I think the M2 chip will have better graphics - but we'll have to wait and see - I'd imagine other integrated graphics are going to up their game too now.

It will be a never-ending battle.

I've heard good things about the new 11th gen Intel chips IGPU's - some articles have shown some impressive stuff, for example this: https://gizmodo.com/intels-11th-gen-processor-with-iris-xe-graphics-is-real-1845076046

Good to see Intel finally upping their game in this regard as they've been miles behind AMD for a good few years, and now Apple as well.

[jessejesster]

I'm totally amazed by how far tech has come in the 2 years since I got my MBP. The M1 is blowing me away and as @Smurfsaid, the graphics are only going to get better.

It's an exciting future for FM players and hopefully we can expect PES 2013 style ME graphics in the next few years here hahahaha.

[CoffeeFueledCurmudgeon]

35 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

I've heard good things about the new 11th gen Intel chips IGPU's - some articles have shown some impressive stuff, for example this: https://gizmodo.com/intels-11th-gen-processor-with-iris-xe-graphics-is-real-1845076046

Good to see Intel finally upping their game in this regard as they've been miles behind AMD for a good few years, and now Apple as well.

The Iris XE is more than enough for FM, it's perfect in fact for most of the 13" devices.

There's a lot to come there though, graphics on chips have been stagnant for a while, with promise of more to come. Looks like we are seeing the 'more' at last with the incoming Intel/AMD/ARM/Apple chips.

[Harper]

1 hour ago, jessejesster said:

Crashes that make you hit yourself for not saving.

Set auto-save to save after matches.

I haven't experienced many crashes. I think the last crashes I experienced were immediately after the BigSur 11.1; just updated to BigSur 11.2 but haven't played yet.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Harper

[kevhamster]

6 minutes ago, Harper said:

Set auto-save to save after matches.

I haven't experienced many crashes. I think the last crashes I experienced were immediately after the BigSur 11.1; just updated to BigSur 11.2 but haven't played yet.

I play on a Windows machine and honestly don't recall any crashes in the recent past.  I think my last crash dump was playing FM12.

[Harper]

1 minute ago, kevhamster said:

I play on a Windows machine and honestly don't recall any crashes in the recent past.  I think my last crash dump was playing FM12.

I experienced a few on my Windows machine with FM20; usually had to do with a graphics card if I remember correctly.

[Harper]

20 minutes ago, Harper said:

Set auto-save to save after matches.

I haven't experienced many crashes. I think the last crashes I experienced were immediately after the BigSur 11.1; just updated to BigSur 11.2 but haven't played yet.

 

12 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

I play on a Windows machine and honestly don't recall any crashes in the recent past.  I think my last crash dump was playing FM12.

Might also have occurred when I had my MB connected to an external monitor, then unplugged and the game window reorganizing to the resolution of the laptop window. It's been a month since I played, so fuzzy memory.

My Mac FM folder doesn't have any crash dumps in it.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Harper

[jessejesster]

Crashes happen most often while watching highlights for me @Harper

[jwa2626]

Hi all, I have an M1 Mac Mini and I suffer almost hourly crashes playing FM20. 
 

I have saved lots of crash reports; is there a FM developer on this thread who could take a look at this for me?

 

it’s so frustrating because it runs like an absolute dream, until it suddenly crashes! 

[kevhamster]

15 hours ago, jwa2626 said:

Hi all, I have an M1 Mac Mini and I suffer almost hourly crashes playing FM20. 
 

I have saved lots of crash reports; is there a FM developer on this thread who could take a look at this for me?

 

it’s so frustrating because it runs like an absolute dream, until it suddenly crashes! 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/819-crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

[Icondacarver]

Another M1 user, great battery life with fm. It is unreal how many 3d matches you can get through and see the battery is still at 50%

Not heard my fans yet on FM20 or FM21 but like others I do get the Kernel error crash about once a day on FM21. I save religiously after every great moment and less religiously when in a bad run of form (its not cheating if I have to replay a loss because my laptop crashed )

Hopefully FM find a solution as that is the only thing crashing my laptop

[kevhamster]

6 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

Another M1 user, great battery life with fm. It is unreal how many 3d matches you can get through and see the battery is still at 50%

Not heard my fans yet on FM20 or FM21 but like others I do get the Kernel error crash about once a day on FM21. I save religiously after every great moment and less religiously when in a bad run of form (its not cheating if I have to replay a loss because my laptop crashed )

Hopefully FM find a solution as that is the only thing crashing my laptop

https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/819-crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

Post details on crashes there.  The more data they have, the more likely they'll be able to find a fix for it.

[Harper]

I've been playing more heavily for the first time in a month. Haven't had any crashes and have run through roughly two months in game.

Settings are Extended Highlights, 2D Classic View (Director Replay), All graphics settings are on High, except Anti-Aliasing (Medium).

I'll play a couple matches with a 3D view and see if I get any crashes.

[jwa2626]

On 09/02/2021 at 14:51, kevhamster said:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/819-crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

Thanks - I've now submitted the crash logs to support. 

[jwa2626]

20 hours ago, jwa2626 said:

Thanks - I've now submitted the crash logs to support. 

They didn't even bother looking at the crash logs I sent them and instead send me a stock response. Thats pretty poor, IMO. 

"Thank you for contacting SEGA Customer Support.

ARM Macs won’t be natively supported but games will potentially run using Apple’s built-in emulation for Intel-based apps and games.

We’re following developments closely and are looking to have devices internally to test on, however we don’t currently release ARM specific versions of FM21 and it is not officially supported at this time.

What we would suggest for anyone wanting to try the game, is to download the free Demo available via both Epic and Steam and seeing how it runs, then making their own mind up on whether to purchase. 


Best Regards,

Anna
SEGA Customer Support"

[shubharora734]

The M1 chip is a beast - so this processor is good too - i3-10320 - it certainly has similar specs to the M1. -however if you spent more you can get a better processor.

I'm only doing it for comparison - not to convince anyone one way or the other - if you want to buy Apple then go ahead. hellodear.in

 

Regards, teatv

[kevhamster]

2 hours ago, jwa2626 said:

They didn't even bother looking at the crash logs I sent them and instead send me a stock response. Thats pretty poor, IMO. 

"Thank you for contacting SEGA Customer Support.

ARM Macs won’t be natively supported but games will potentially run using Apple’s built-in emulation for Intel-based apps and games.

We’re following developments closely and are looking to have devices internally to test on, however we don’t currently release ARM specific versions of FM21 and it is not officially supported at this time.

What we would suggest for anyone wanting to try the game, is to download the free Demo available via both Epic and Steam and seeing how it runs, then making their own mind up on whether to purchase. 


Best Regards,

Anna
SEGA Customer Support"

To be fair, if they're not planning on releasing ARM specific versions of the game, reviewing the crash logs probably make no sense and is just a waste of their time.  I didn't know what their stance on this was, and at least we now know.

They've stated that it's running through emulation and technically not supported at this time. 

But, in putting this info up, you've given people extra food for thought in terms of making a decision to purchase or not and people will now know it's very much a case of buyer beware at this point.

[Neil Brock]

5 hours ago, jwa2626 said:

They didn't even bother looking at the crash logs I sent them and instead send me a stock response. Thats pretty poor, IMO. 

"Thank you for contacting SEGA Customer Support.

ARM Macs won’t be natively supported but games will potentially run using Apple’s built-in emulation for Intel-based apps and games.

We’re following developments closely and are looking to have devices internally to test on, however we don’t currently release ARM specific versions of FM21 and it is not officially supported at this time.

What we would suggest for anyone wanting to try the game, is to download the free Demo available via both Epic and Steam and seeing how it runs, then making their own mind up on whether to purchase. 


Best Regards,

Anna
SEGA Customer Support"

Yeah sorry you got this - will chase it up. Whilst the game isn't officially supported we'd definitely want to check out the crash logs and see what we can find out. 

[Harper]

FWIW, I have played through three games not using the 2D Classic engine and have not had any crashes, yet. I did have the machine connected to an external monitor, and continued to play without incident after disconnecting and going mobile.

 Was simultaneously streaming video and had the Mac Twitter app open.

For those of you with crashes, are you running other applications while you're playing?

[jwa2626]

18 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Yeah sorry you got this - will chase it up. Whilst the game isn't officially supported we'd definitely want to check out the crash logs and see what we can find out. 

Thank you Lucas; I've now DM'd you.