The Thomas Tuchel Approach - A Tactical Project

[Gegenklaus]

Thomas Tuchel is one of these rather new managers I've grown quite a big fascination for. His first half season at Dortmund, the 2015-2016, stands out for me as a quite unique team with a very fascinating way of playing football. Tuchel's positional play got paired with Klopps intense counter pressing and together it produced something quite unique. Tuchel gave them a better positional sense on the field, a better pre determined structure where each player knew what half spaces and positions between the lines to occupy according to where the opposition and the ball was. Something they really lacked in the last days of Klopp. Instead of being direct and very vertical under Klopp, the passing under Tuchel got shortened a bit. A bigger focus came on retaining possession but for for possesions' sake. The real goal was to move the opposition by controlling the match through posession. A possesion side who constantly scanned the field for space. When it got applied best best it looked like this.

It was fast, positive football when applied best, but also quite clever in it's focus to lure the the opposition on one side of the pitch to create space somewhere else, then quickly spring the trap, launch the ball into that area and attack.

I have been trying for countless of days and hours to emulate Thomas Tuchel's footballing philosophy directly to Football Manager, but I find the play would often be way to forced and the many Team/Player-Instructions would drown even the most intelligent players. So I go for a new approach. You could say that I did something similar to Tuchel before he in 2015/2016 took over Dortmund. Like Tuchel took a sabbatical year to study how Guardialo sets his team up, I took some "time off" from the game to study a great community member who has been the biggest influence on. There is of course talk of @Özil-to-the-Arsenal's many threads on his Very Fluid playing style with Ajax and his vision to make a general playing style which can easily be applied in various formations. I thought then instead of trying to replicate Thomas Tuchels way – how the players exactly move and what roles they have played on the field and so on – I will instead take the essential philosophy of Tuchel and translate it into a overall style of play. So, lets narrow down what Tuchel essentially asks of his teams:

The research:
http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/09/15/team-analysis-tuchels-borussia-dortmund/ - and everything they have written about Tuchel. 
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/11/20/tuchels-play-with-fire-pays-off/
http://bundesligafanatic.com/tactical-analysis-tuchels-borussia-dortmund-finally-beat-bayern/

Tuchels Tactical Philosophy

The german managers stands, as I see it, on two great pillars:

The Counter Press:
- His team defends from the front and tries to win the ball back quickly after lost possession. Very much like the school of Klopp.
To give a better framework for this, the team is rather compact between the lines when the defense transitions happens, operating with a high defensive line to control and squeeze the space for the opposition to play in. 

Positional Play:
- Tuchel organises his team to facilitate certain and very specific overloads on certain areas of the pitch. The team is structured in passing triangles and diamonds so several passing options opens up – especially in the half spaces and between the lines.
- The goal of this is to make the team to be more able to control possesion, dictating the game and create space. One of the things that is so fascinating about Tuchel's approach is that in the 2015/2016 the team prefered to open up - through rather short diagonally and vertical passes - passing options rather than opening up dribbling routes. When this certain style peaks, it's like watching a german and more aggressive version of Pep's Barca. A fast one-two unit of players with an incredible high understanding of teamwork.
- They build out from the back often retaining the ball with clever passing, patiently trying to open up a route to attack.

So how do we apply this overall philosphy into Football Manager? 

This is where it gets extremely tricky. Because, simply, you can't. Not directly. At least not a 1:1 version. 

The pressing:
In Football Manager, you can tell your players how much they should press overall, but not when they should press. There isnt certain pressing triggers. We can however control the defensive line and we can take the essential of the philosophy of counter pressing:
- We want to put the opposition under huge pressure. Making it difficult for them to organise their own play, forcing them into stressed long balls. They should simply not be given time to breath.
- We want to squeeze the space they can play in by having a extremely high line - and to start our own closing down as soon as possible.

The possession play:
We got a lot of control of how a player should act on the field - generally. Do we want them to roam outside of their area? Should they defend? Should they attack? Should they support? What space should they hit, who stretches the field horizontally and vertically? We can all do this, but what we cant tell our players, is how to exactly operate according to firstly where the ball is and where the opposition is. We cant be so detailed. Instead we can focus – like with the counter press – on the essentials of this philosophy:
- I will use formations that naturally favours the creation of diamonds. We will change the formation and the movement inside the formations according to how the opposition play to take advantage of the opposition's formation's weaknesses in certain areas of the pitch. Like Tuchel does, I will not be afraid of changing formation from opponent to opponent. How do we do this? We give ourselves a set of rules to follow.

They will be like this:
- We need an advantage of at least one man in central areas of the pitch, namely in the defense and midfield. Example: Against formations that has two strikers we will have 3 defenders (well hello there, Bielsa). Against formations with a central attacking midfielder we will have a DM to nullify that threat. But the main question I always should ask is this: 

How can we build from the back against the specific formation? If I manage to answer that correctly I have come far.

The key here is to adapt, but the overall playing style should stay the same.

The overall framework aka. the playing style

After all this writing and reading I will now try to create a framework which facilitates what I want.

Team Shape: Very Fluid:
Why? Very Fluid secures the team acts like one unit. Every player should be a part of the transitions. Is this exactly how Tuchel structure his team? No, maybe not. Its an endless debate of how guys like him and Guardiola and so on sets up his team in Football Manager terms. You could argue Tuchel prefers a Structured approach. He is telling his players exactly what he wants them to do. Meanwhile he gives certain player on the pitch creative freedom to move around. An example of this was the ARM (Auba, Mhiki and Reus) in the first season. They moved all over the place in offense to create overloads, while Kagawa came from deep and acted very much like the “Iniesta”, the most offensive of the creative quartet, Gundogan, Weigl and Hummels being the other three.

But as I stated before I can't tell my players in detail how to act under specific situations, like Tuchel and Guardiola does. Instead I want to create a framework of where free flowing, yet defensively compact, football with a high amount of creativity and movement. A framework that, like Tuchel, favours intelligence and technique over raw physique.

In other words; Julian Weigl > Sven Bender.

Team Instructions

Mentality: Standard 
- As Özil-to-the-Arsenal has championed, the Standard mentality balances out the mentalities in a Very Fluid shape. By choosing Standard I can still organise my team in to who is mainly in charge of defending, supporting and attacking while the team still acts like a unit . You could argue that Tuchel plays on the Control mentality, but after I - nearly - only been playing the game  on a high mentality I want to try out something new. This is our starting point in every match. We can always go higher or lower if the situation gets desperate (if we want the unit to act more aggressively or just park the bus).

Much Higher Defensive Line:
- As previously stated, we will defend from the front, squeeze the space the opposition can play in. This requires a high defensive line.

Closing Down Much More:
- Tuchel employs an intense kind of pressing – even though this changed a bit during his two seasons – but the kind of playing style I want is the pairing of the two pillars: The german aggressive counter press and the possesion based game.

Passing: Mixed
- You could argue that the passing directness should be shorter – and it is something I will evaluate further on – but for now I want a style that gives my intelligent players a frame to where they can decide for themselves. The best passing option will often (thanks to the formation(s) I choose) be shorter, but Tuchel's Dortmund was also famously known for their fast counters and at certain points very direct passing - when the situation was suited for it.

Play Out of Defense
- We want to build out from the back. This is where our possesion game starts. We want to be in control and not give away possesion by simply kicking the ball up the field. 

Work Ball Into Box
- I am having my doubts about this, as it might limit our directness when it comes to counter attacks, but Work Ball Into Box organises the team around the box and also reduces crosses attempted in to the box. Having players around the box also gives us a good chance to win the ball back high. It tells the players to be more patiently when looking for an opening and this is very much what Tuchel wants. Pass the ball around, move the opposition and attack the free space. Also Tuchel rarely tell his two very high wingbacks to cross the ball into the box, they often do a cutback. Their main objective is to stretch the opposition's defense, providing a wide passing option high up the pitch. They are often the first recievers when the switch of play happens after an overload on one side of the pitch.

Prevent Short GK Distribution
- We want to press the opposition high, disturbing their build up play. This team instructions should do that.

Dribble less
- Tuchel favours a pass before dribbling mentality. That players pass and move. Circulating the ball, instead of dribbling relentlessly. I am having my huge doubts of this as I have no experience using this. But as the tool tip states:
"Dribble Less instructs players to adopt a pass-first mentality rather than retain possession and dribble their way into attacking situations." 
I am really interested in hearing others what their experience is with this.

Formations

Now I have the overall playing style set I need to apply it on the field. A couple of key points here:
- Tuchel often favours a deep lying creative midfielder that can rotate the ball, retain possesion and provide a screen for the defense (something very much needed when it comes to the central defenders, that Dortmund has (Sokratis 13 positioning, 12 for Bartra, yikes!). In many of his formations, being it the 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 3-1-4-2, he often gives two players the job of providing the width in the attack. This is often done through the two wingbacks that push forward and stays wide in most cases. In the 3-1-4-2, when playing with 3 central defenders the wingers/very aggressive wingbacks provides the width. 

The 4-1-4-1

Why? The 4-1-4-1 can be ever changing. It provides a strong midfield presence and with simple changes it can adept to certain opponents. Like; If the opposition fields a top heavy, aggressive pressing 4-2-3-1, the deep lying midfielder can turn into a Half Back, dropping in between the two central defenders to get a nummerical advance, while the two wingbacks push high up and help with the build up in the midfield, creating an overload on the wings. Against a 4-3-3, the space in front of the defense is rather free and the deep lying midfielder can turn into a more creative and supporting role, like a regista, where the play can be dictated from deep. The possibilities in this formation is, almost, endless.

The 3-4-3

 

Against formations, that has two strikers up front, we want to have a nummerical advantage. This formation can be changed too. For example if we face a formation, the 3-4-1-2, with two central strikers and a AM we can drop the holding central midfielder down to nullify the attacking midfielder, giving us a – again – 4v3 advantage, and our right AM down to midfield, give him a attack duty, so he starts a little deeper, but links and help with the midfield and our DM. You probably get the idea by now. Also, if I am up against a really aggressive 4-4-2, that is very direct and attack down the flanks, I could make the wingers more conversative and drop them down to the wingback strata. Making the distance they need to track back shorter. (This one is heavily inspired by Bophonets 3-4-3)

The top heavy 4-2-3-1

Lastly, against really defensive systems (if the oppositions report states that they line up in a 4-1-4-1 in a defensive mentality) we can make use of a plan B. This is against formations that only has 1 striker and that is not top heavy. Where we need a little bit faster transitions by having a lot of players already up front and to apply a really heavy metal style kind of pressing.

So what is left? Well, now I need to start playing. 

I want to say that this is the first time I ever try to do something like this. I might fail miserably, as I am no veteran. The goal with creating this is to get feedback. If I am wrong at something, please point it out. I am no Football Manager Veteran. Pretty far from it. I have played the game on and off for some years, but I usually just download some tactic and start pressing the space button. This last year has been different for me though. I have read a lot of the content this fantastic community creates, tried out some things myself and finally feel comfortable of putting myself out there. 

A speciel thanks should be given to my heavy influencers:
Cleon
Rashidi
Özil-to-the-Arsenal
Bophonet (who makes a fantastic effort to emulate real life tactics, you should check him out. He is italian, but if you cant speak that language (like me) we luckily have Google Translate)

 

PART TWO - The Evolution - getting closer to a playing style

 

How do you create a hybrid style of football which consist an extremely dynamic and fast possesion game? How do you get incredible fast counter attacking football that utilieses the incredible pace of front, yet having a (very, very) controlled and rehearsed build up? And most of all how do you translate that into the complex game that is Football Manager 2017?

Those are questions I have yet to answer but I am slowly getting there. The first season is over, and even though I experimented a lot – I moved up and down in shapes and mentalities and reguarly changed formations – it was an extremely succesfull one. When I first began this save with Dortmund it was with an overall ambition to within three years to dethrone Bayern and claiming the Bundesliga once again. This happened already in the first season.

We won the Bundesliga with 19 points. Only losing once, a 2-0 away defeat to Bayern, drawing 5 and winning 28. I won the DFB Pokal in a epic 2-1 victory over Bayern. In Champion's League we reached quarter finals after winning an easy group and beating Pep's Manchester City in the first knockout round. We drew Mourinho's Manchester United and beat them 2-0 at Old Trafford on two counters. Our high line and press was the key to the victory. Manchester United had very little space to play in and they rarely got to build an attack around our box. In the second leg, at home, we bagan by scoring to 1-0, then they scored on a screamer to 1-1. Before the half we managed to get it to 2-1 through. With 20 minutes to go Manchester United put the pedal down and began an extreme front press. They succeded. Our two young centerbacks, Rugani and Laporte, began looking “very nervous” and it spread to the rest of the team. I panicked myself, lowered our defensive line a bit – to slightly higher – but we couldn't get a foothold in the game. They 2-2, and a nervous breakdown began. Then 3-2. And in the 86^th minute they made it to 4-2. A disappointing, complete breakdown.

Anyway, we gave one of the best teams in the world a good fight, and good knocked out solely on away goals. This was only our second defeat of the entire season. 

Here are some highlights, told in pictures:

 

The Philosophy - redefined

I did some more reading both in terms of FM guides on having a high block. I tried to boil down Tuchel's philosophy further to make it easier to apply. So here we go – again:

• High and intense pressing

• Very structured and controlled build up

  • Central defenders fan out. Wingbacks push high up. Deep-lying midfielder drops deep, sometimes between the centerbacks, but mostly between the space of opposition's attackers and midfield. The deep-lying midfielder's main job is to distribute the ball further up the pitch, intitiating attacks and being a constant passing outlet for ball retention. The striker stretches the opposition's defense vertically, making space behind for the two wide attackers and central midfield attacker to surge into. Wingbacks stays wide all the time, stretching the defense horizontally and making the pitch as big as possible. The build up is mainly done by shorter passing.

• Counter Attacks

  • Two attackers usually stay high to be able to counter. This is done with direct and immense speed.

• Central domination

  • Tuchel wants to dominate central areas of the pitch which is why he has used a great many formations to gain a nummerical advantage centrally.

• Fluidity

  • Tuchel's lets players roam and swift positions to achieve free flowing football throughout all phases. It isn't total football though but it is down that road.

• The deep-lying midfielder

  • Both at Mainz and Dortmund Thomas Tuchel always used a deep-lying midfielder who dictates the build up from deep and is used for ball retention. This role was usually entrusted to young players such as Julian Weigl and Johannes Geis.

Translated into Football Manager

• Mentality: Attacking/Control

  • To really replicate Tuchels famously high press I am forced into two things:

    • A high mentality which urges my players to get deeper into oppositions half.

    • A top heavy formation consisting of at least 2 high attackers.

    • With attacking/control I get a natural high line, higher tempo, more width and players with higher mentalities throughout the team.

• Shape: Fluid

  • Tuchel's Dortmund are compact and encourage a lot of movement to achieve free flowing football, giving intelligent players a good opportunity to express themselves. Combined with a higher mentality such as control and attacking the team will try to achieve the positive attacking football that Tuchel's stands for. The cleverness of it will come in the structure of the team: Formation and player duties and roles.

• Team Instructions

  • Much Higher Defensive Line

    • Placing one or two midfielder's in front of the defense pushes the d-line slightly down. To negate that, to compress the space opposition can play in and to make sure our closing down begins deep into opposition's half, we push the d-line as high up as possible. I actually rarely changed this throughout the season as I usually saw the rewards of it was higher than the risk we took.

• Use Offside Trap

  • Links very well with the high d-line and also helps compress the space opposition can play in. At the end of the season I collected some good experience with this.

• Prevent Short GK Distribution

  • Places players deeper into opposition's half to prevent them building from the back. Links with the high d-line, closing down much more and offside trap to compress space.

• Lower Tempo (When on Attacking Mentality)

  • We want to play with a little more patience and ask our players to take some more time on the ball. This is to replicate the patience Dortmund also played with under Tuchel. The tempo is still pretty fast though.

• Play out of defense

  • Urges our players to perform the controlled build up, Tuchel is famous for.

• Close down much more

  • Yeah, you guessed it. The pressing needs to be as intense as possible.

 

The New 4-1-4-1

GK - Sweeper Keeper (S): Distribute to Centre Backs, Roll It Out (makes the CD's fan out)
CD – Ball Playing Defender (D): Close Down Much Less
CD – Ball Playing Defender (D): Close Down Much Less
DR – Wing-Back (S): Stay Wider, Pass It Shorter
DL – Wing-Back (S): Stay Wider, Pass It Shorter
DML – Deep Lying Playmaker (D): Close Down Much Less
DMR – Segundo Volante (S): Get Further Forward, Move Into Channels
CM – Central Midfielder (A): Roam From Position, Move Into Channels
AMR – Inside Forward (S): Roam From Position, Sit Narrower
AML – Inside Forward (S): Roam From Position, Sit Narrower
STC – Advanced Forward: N/A

The theory behind player roles and duties

This formation is loosely inspired by Tuchel's own 4-2-3-1:

The key to this systems are the defensive midfielders. One stays deep, holding the midfield, one starts deep, helps with the build and support the attack. Wing Backs push high up. Central midfielder links up with midfielder and joins the fron three. The Inside Forwards starts wide – making the pitch as big as possible - but surge into space in front of opposition's defense. Advanced Forward stretches the opposition's defense vertically, making space for the Inside Forwards and the central midfielder.

The controlled Build Up

We just won the ball back deep, Rajkovic, the goal keeper, distributes to Laporte who has several passing options. We have created an overload centrally to counter Schalke's high press. This is early in the build up, but the two wing backs push up and stays wide, making it harder to press. The two central defenders fan out – I would like them to be at the two upper corners in the penalty area, but my God it is hard to achieve. Our two DMs, Weigl and Dahoud, comes deep to help in the build up, placing themselves between Schalke's attackers and midfield. What I like most about this build up is the overall diamond. Front four has perfect space between them. The striker pushes Schalke's defense down. The two wide attackers operates both in the half space, close enough to the central attacking midfield who occupies Schalke's midfield, and stretches Schalke's midfield, forcing them into making a choice later on and create an overload. Like Guardiola, Tuchel instruct his players to operate between the lines of the opposition. I am no great tactical analyst, but I really like what I see here. We stretch Schalke's press. We can build centrally: Laporte can pass to Rugani (number 6) who with a fast pass can pass to Dahoud (number 8) or if Schalke's nummber 11 choice to block that passing lane, he can pass it wide to Rode (number 18) who can relatively easy pass it down wide to Reus (number 11). This is actually the move that happened, and with just 5-6 passes we constructed a attack from deep.

This tactic is ever changing though. I have flirted with the idea to put the two wingbacks up in the wingback strata to force a bigger split between the two central defenders. And then put the two Inside Forwards into the AM strata. So, lots to do in the coming season.

Also, I want to focus on getting the other formations right. The 4-2-3-1 seems to work great against incredible defensive systems. But I have yet to use a formation with 3 central defenders. That's for season 2 though.

Please comment with your thoughts. Am I on the right track? Do you have any suggestions? Please, let me know. :-)

[BillHoudini24]

Excellent write up, will follow your progress. I always liked two kinds of football, Guardiola/Cruyff style and Klopp/Tuchel. I'm trying to get close to that style, currently trying with Zulte Waregem. Good luck and keep us updated!

[Lobaeux4]

I’ll be following this post, great start to it.  I’m managing in Serie A on FM18, but may try to adapt to a Tuchel type style in my second year, if I last at AC Milan.  

 

Here’s a post I did a while back on Tuchel’s Dortmund.

 

[Gegenklaus]

36 minutes ago, BillHoudini24 said:

Excellent write up, will follow your progress. I always liked two kinds of football, Guardiola/Cruyff style and Klopp/Tuchel. I'm trying to get close to that style, currently trying with Zulte Waregem. Good luck and keep us updated!

Thanks, a lot man. Yeah, the hybrid - at least in the 2015/2016-season - of Tuchels play, Klopps intense counterpress and direct stile - paired with Guardiola's positional play was really interesting. 

6 minutes ago, Lobaeux4 said:

I’ll be following this post, great start to it.  I’m managing in Serie A on FM18, but may try to adapt to a Tuchel type style in my second year, if I last at AC Milan.  

 

Here’s a post I did a while back on Tuchel’s Dortmund.

 

Oh man, Lobaeux, I don't know how many times I have been reading that thread. You did some really interesting work. I could easily have posted that thread under "Research" menu.

[Lobaeux4]

Cool.  I’m glad someone’s going to do this with FM18, can’t wait to see how it develops. 

[BrickCommo23]

Great work. I am trying to create something similar at Arsenal but not quite working. Looking forward to seeing how you get on!!

[Ji-Sung Park]

This is some great stuff, I will be watching this space. 

This years ME has some through balls from deep, so a high d-line like this will be interesting to watch in that regard. 

[Gegenklaus]

On 19/11/2017 at 00:58, BrickCommo23 said:

Great work. I am trying to create something similar at Arsenal but not quite working. Looking forward to seeing how you get on!!

Nice, man. Feel free to post your thoughts and your approach here. The goal of this thread is I want as much inspiration as I Can.

 

On 19/11/2017 at 11:10, Ji-Sung Park said:

This is some great stuff, I will be watching this space. 

This years ME has some through balls from deep, so a high d-line like this will be interesting to watch in that regard. 

Thanks. Yeah, you are right. It is a clear vulnerability - those deep balls over my entire organisation can be hurtful - I am seeing this already. The big vulnerability is I commit a lot of players forward - an extreme amount, so counter attacks can turn out to be a problem. It's a risk/reward thing really. I've played some games now, but want to play some more before I go deep into the analysis.

[Mitja]

very nice read. how's the transition working on standard/v. fluid? my guess is it's a little too cautius and slow for such a modern tactics? 

[Ellandroadhero]

Nice thread. Interesting that you’ve gone for the standard mentality. I’m using Very Fluid with my Milan team using 3 different formations; 442 diamond, 352 and 433 and I think I’ll try it with standard. I’m normally using control, but i think somebody above mentioned that attacking mentality is meaning that attacks are being rushed and petering our with long shots before players have made it up to support. I’m looking forward to learning how you find the tactic plays out. 

[Gegenklaus]

Just now, Mitja said:

very nice read. how's the transition working on standard/v. fluid? my guess is it's a little too cautius and slow for such a modern tactics? 

It's a mix, from what I've seen so far. The system advice intelligent players to make the decision on wether to hold on to the ball or launch an attack. A lot of the goals so far has been through a very quick attack. Example: We get the ball on the midfield, my four attacking players - the two wingers, the central midfielder and striker - launches attacks with very direct and vertical passes. These mostly happens in the left and right half space, where the inside forwards finds space, while the attacking midfielder either links play or launches forward. I find that at times these transitions are incredible fast, but also very considered. I think it is down to players like Reus, Auba, Yarmolenko and Kagawa/Götze all are excellent of the ball. Pair this with the second supporting midfielder, Dahoud, who at times acts like a quarterback. 

[Gegenklaus]

6 minutes ago, Ellandroadhero said:

Nice thread. Interesting that you’ve gone for the standard mentality. I’m using Very Fluid with my Milan team using 3 different formations; 442 diamond, 352 and 433 and I think I’ll try it with standard. I’m normally using control, but i think somebody above mentioned that attacking mentality is meaning that attacks are being rushed and petering our with long shots before players have made it up to support. I’m looking forward to learning how you find the tactic plays out. 

Thats exactly what I have experienced with using Attacking and Control mentalities. During FM 17, I saw a lot of @Rashidi's videos, and he mentioned that mentality are simply a risk factor. I also played with Dortmund then and fell in love with the counter mentality because the attacks werent so rushed, but more well thought. Standard seems to make an incredible balance. I often see very considered and clever ball movement, it gets passed around and then - suddenly, I see a vertical pass - mainly from Dahoud in central midfield - between the lines, finding one of the front players who have taken advantage of the attackers movement. Boom! Goal! To be honest this style of play is very entertaining to watch, and I reckon it goes hand in hand with the dribble less instruction. It seems like players are more encouraged to move and pass. All with the simple goal to move and destabilize the opposition's defense. I need to play more games though, but I like what I see so far.

[Margent2]

very much looking forward to seeing the outcome here. great work

[jimbobBRFC]

Great work  Really looking forward to how this progress'. Always loved Tuchels work furthering Dortmund after Klopp, so may borrow a couple of your tactical bits and pieces for my own tactics.

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Thats exactly what I have experienced with using Attacking and Control mentalities. During FM 17, I saw a lot of @Rashidi's videos, and he mentioned that mentality are simply a risk factor. I also played with Dortmund then and fell in love with the counter mentality because the attacks werent so rushed, but more well thought. Standard seems to make an incredible balance. I often see very considered and clever ball movement, it gets passed around and then - suddenly, I see a vertical pass - mainly from Dahoud in central midfield - between the lines, finding one of the front players who have taken advantage of the attackers movement. Boom! Goal! To be honest this style of play is very entertaining to watch, and I reckon it goes hand in hand with the dribble less instruction. It seems like players are more encouraged to move and pass. All with the simple goal to move and destabilize the opposition's defense. I need to play more games though, but I like what I see so far.

with very fluid you say to your team to play on it's own decision and flair. when coupled with standard mentality team plays their natural game on little safer side. if you try the same tacics on flexible the team would look unrecognisble and probably uneffective, at list for my liking.  but the effect standard/v. fluid creates is more attacking football.  also pass into space is a must for me on lower mentalities and higher tempo too of course. I just love attacking and overload mentalities I guess.

[Jonny2J]

Great read this, can't wait to see your progression.

[Fieldsy]

How have you found having wtbib? Does it slow the attack down too much, letting defenders regroup easily?

[davehibb]

@Gegenklaus great thread 

I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on and your analysis and any tweaks you might make.

I used Bophonet's Tuchel system almost exclusively in my FM17 saves and on the whole I thought they worked very well, so if his work along with the other guys you mentioned here are your inspiration, I'm sure you'll come up with something amazing.

[Piaz88]

Great thread but you really should use an offside trap if you push it up higher.

[nick1408]

8 hours ago, Piaz88 said:

Great thread but you really should use an offside trap if you push it up higher.

Why’s that?

[BrickCommo23]

A little update from me playing as Arsenal.

First game, away to PAOK Salonika in the Europa League. We won 2-0 but with a long range strike and scramble from a corner. Possession was 50/50 but no CCC's created.

Next up, Liverpool away. Battered and 3-0 down inside first 30 mimutes. At half time I did go for an aggressive team talk but more importantly (hopefully in light of this thread) I removed dribble less (I have Zivkovic, Bellerin and Berardi so it's probably not playing to my strengths) but more importantly added 'pass into space'. 

Ended 3-2 and although we lost, created 2 CCCs and 5 half chances. I don't think that would be solely down to the half time team talk.

Might be something to keep in mind.

Cheers

[Gegenklaus]

16 hours ago, davehibb said:

@Gegenklaus great thread 

I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on and your analysis and any tweaks you might make.

I used Bophonet's Tuchel system almost exclusively in my FM17 saves and on the whole I thought they worked very well, so if his work along with the other guys you mentioned here are your inspiration, I'm sure you'll come up with something amazing.

Bophonets tactics are amazing - and he probably gets a lot closer than I ever will. Dont expect something amazing, haha. I'm a newbie when it comes to creating tactics and also to analyse them. Thanks, though. I love the support.

 

1 hour ago, BrickCommo23 said:

A little update from me playing as Arsenal.

First game, away to PAOK Salonika in the Europa League. We won 2-0 but with a long range strike and scramble from a corner. Possession was 50/50 but no CCC's created.

Next up, Liverpool away. Battered and 3-0 down inside first 30 mimutes. At half time I did go for an aggressive team talk but more importantly (hopefully in light of this thread) I removed dribble less (I have Zivkovic, Bellerin and Berardi so it's probably not playing to my strengths) but more importantly added 'pass into space'. 

Ended 3-2 and although we lost, created 2 CCCs and 5 half chances. I don't think that would be solely down to the half time team talk.

Might be something to keep in mind.

Cheers

Nice to hear. Thanks for the feedback. How have you set your team up? 

I've yet to fully analyse the impact, and after reading a lot more about Tuchel and seeing highlights from the 2015-2016-season Im inclined to remove it. Reus, Gundogan and Mhiki all dribbled a lot. Especially Gundogan, charging up the field like a marauder. 

[BrickCommo23]

6 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Bophonets tactics are amazing - and he probably gets a lot closer than I ever will. Dont expect something amazing, haha. I'm a newbie when it comes to creating tactics and also to analyse them. Thanks, though. I love the support.

 

Nice to hear. Thanks for the feedback. How have you set your team up? 

I've yet to fully analyse the impact, and after reading a lot more about Tuchel and seeing highlights from the 2015-2016-season Im inclined to remove it. Reus, Gundogan and Mhiki all dribbled a lot. Especially Gundogan, charging up the field like a marauder. 

I am using a 41221 (ie DM, MC, MC, AMR, AML) at the moment as suits my players.

Towards the end I also moved Ozil over to AMR a wide playmaker and also worked nicely. 

As another thought, if we really want to aggressively press then it might be worth adding 'Tight Marking' too.

[Gegenklaus]

3 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

I am using a 41221 (ie DM, MC, MC, AMR, AML) at the moment as suits my players.

Towards the end I also moved Ozil over to AMR a wide playmaker and also worked nicely. 

As another thought, if we really want to aggressively press then it might be worth adding 'Tight Marking' too.

Yep, I've noticed the same. The pressing can at times look a little lame.  

Also, the high press in opponents final third needs a top heavy formation to work - if we wanna disturb there build up. Im actually thinking of redoing my post. Also change the mentality.

[Lobaeux4]

Not only that, it’s dependent on specific personnel too.  I tried a gegenpressing style tactic at Dortmund in FM17, that didn’t translate so well into the Premier League with Chelsea.  I thought it would work great, but didn’t.  At least not as well as it worked in Dortmund.  I’m figuring there are a lot of factors why, personnel being one of them. 

[Gegenklaus]

 

43 minutes ago, Lobaeux4 said:

Not only that, it’s dependent on specific personnel too.  I tried a gegenpressing style tactic at Dortmund in FM17, that didn’t translate so well into the Premier League with Chelsea.  I thought it would work great, but didn’t.  At least not as well as it worked in Dortmund.  I’m figuring there are a lot of factors why, personnel being one of them. 

Yeah, attributes is really important here, I reckon. Work rate, aggression and most of all anticipation. 

[ifoundthatessence]

Gegenklaus - i'm just trying to prepare a Mauricio Sarri tactic - i don't know too much about Tuchel, it would appear the two play similar systems. 

The issue i have is with the Sarri defensive line, if you play Standard mentality your defence is nowhere near high enough up the pitch. Napoli literally camp on the half way line during their games, so I've set to attacking mentality. Then tried to negate some of the effect of having this mentality by setting to retain possession and no risky passes, slowing down the tempo, this is beginning to work i think. 

Do you have any thought on this ? 

 

[Gegenklaus]

On 25/11/2017 at 17:51, ifoundthatessence said:

Gegenklaus - i'm just trying to prepare a Mauricio Sarri tactic - i don't know too much about Tuchel, it would appear the two play similar systems. 

The issue i have is with the Sarri defensive line, if you play Standard mentality your defence is nowhere near high enough up the pitch. Napoli literally camp on the half way line during their games, so I've set to attacking mentality. Then tried to negate some of the effect of having this mentality by setting to retain possession and no risky passes, slowing down the tempo, this is beginning to work i think. 

Do you have any thought on this ? 

 

I have myself upped the mentality to control for two reasons; Getting a higher natural defensive line and more aggressive closing down. I even went attacking for 5 games straight with good results, But the play was too impatient for the style I want to create. 

@Ji-Sung Park did a great job replicating Sarri's tactic. He went fluid, making the team a little more compact than on flexible and encourage players to play broadly in most phases. He went control But put the tempo Down to Lower to replicate the patience Napoli plays with when building. Ive tried the tactic myself and I loved the outcome. The team would often strike lightning fast, first being patient and then explode. 

[Gegenklaus]

Original post updated!

Done one season now. 

[jc577]

14 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Original post updated!

Done one season now. 

Good work again mate, i didn’t want it to end! Looking forward to season 2 

[cez]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Original post updated!

Done one season now. 

the updated version of 4231 or more like a 42121 looks very similar to what Spalletti uses at Inter, and is something I want to replicate in my Inter save, so will definitely check it out later on, thanks for the tip!

[nick1408]

9 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Original post updated!

Done one season now. 

Why did you use two ball playing midfielders then ask them to play out of defence?  Their more risky passes PI will prevent them from playing out of defence.

[Gegenklaus]

10 hours ago, nick1408 said:

Why did you use two ball playing midfielders then ask them to play out of defence?  Their more risky passes PI will prevent them from playing out of defence.

Good question. In Laporte and Rugani I got two very good technical defenders with decent vision (12) and good passing ability. If they have an oppertunity to get the ball faster up to the advanced trio up front I want to encourage them to do that. I often see, especially Laporte, them pass the ball straight into midfield, a pass that bypass the opposition's attackers. And I dont see the one thing exclude the other.

It might help the possesion game turning them into central defenders, and I will test it out in the second season.

[Ellandroadhero]

This is brilliant!

[Lobaeux4]

Interesting change to the formation.  Did I miss who you plan to use as the Segundo Volante?

[davehibb]

@Gegenklaus

Great update and fantastic to see the system working well.

Who are the main scorers and assisters? I'm guessing the vast majority of goals are funneled to the AF and assists coming from the IFs?

 And what is the typical goal your side scores? A fast breakaway from deep with Auba on the end of it?

[Gegenklaus]

6 hours ago, Lobaeux4 said:

Interesting change to the formation.  Did I miss who you plan to use as the Segundo Volante?

I use Dahoud, the new Gundogan. I love the movement of the Segundo Volante because it starts deep and joins attack.  

 

7 minutes ago, davehibb said:

@Gegenklaus

Great update and fantastic to see the system working well.

Who are the main scorers and assisters? I'm guessing the vast majority of goals are funneled to the AF and assists coming from the IFs?

 And what is the typical goal your side scores? A fast breakaway from deep with Auba on the end of it?

Auba is the focal point, so he is typical on the end of it. He did 46 goals which is pretty insane. The inside forwards gets a lot too. Yarmolenko and Reus - who played most - both got around 12-14ish with around 10ish assist. 

Sometimes it is a fast break but to be honest, I'ce changed the system a lot so can be hard to tell. But Auba gets a lot of through from the two IFs and CMA when they got the opposition deep. Im not sure about the AF-role though. He is often a bit too isolated. Maybe I should put one of the IFs on attack, so one stays high.

[cez]

8 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

I use Dahoud, the new Gundogan. I love the movement of the Segundo Volante because it starts deep and joins attack.  

 

Auba is the focal point, so he is typical on the end of it. He did 46 goals which is pretty insane. The inside forwards gets a lot too. Yarmolenko and Reus - who played most - both got around 12-14ish with around 10ish assist. 

Sometimes it is a fast break but to be honest, I'ce changed the system a lot so can be hard to tell. But Auba gets a lot of through from the two IFs and CMA when they got the opposition deep. Im not sure about the AF-role though. He is often a bit too isolated. Maybe I should put one of the IFs on attack, so one stays high.

hey man! 

played some games last night and so far have 3 minor tweaks I'm considering:

- as you said above the AF seems to isolated at times, and gets caught offside too much, maybe becuase I have Icardi so he tries to beat the offside, also he doesn't seem to score a lot in this setup, no idea if they break him this patch or what but in beta he had like 40 goals in 35 games, but on the recent patch he has like 20 goals in 35 games and cant score simple 1v1s...

- I'm not sure about the deep DLP D + SV W and CM A, sometimes feels like the CM is way too deep and joins the attack too late, so I'm considering moving him to AM strata or move up the whole trio and make the SV a BBM 

- Sometimes it feels like the players move up the pitch too slowly for my liking so might do some tweaks to adress that

but overall since mixing this formation with my Spalletti's tactic I've only lost one game, away to napoli by being too agressive but will still most likely win the league

[Gegenklaus]

13 minutes ago, cez said:

hey man! 

played some games last night and so far have 3 minor tweaks I'm considering:

- as you said above the AF seems to isolated at times, and gets caught offside too much, maybe becuase I have Icardi so he tries to beat the offside, also he doesn't seem to score a lot in this setup, no idea if they break him this patch or what but in beta he had like 40 goals in 35 games, but on the recent patch he has like 20 goals in 35 games and cant score simple 1v1s...

- I'm not sure about the deep DLP D + SV W and CM A, sometimes feels like the CM is way too deep and joins the attack too late, so I'm considering moving him to AM strata or move up the whole trio and make the SV a BBM 

- Sometimes it feels like the players move up the pitch too slowly for my liking so might do some tweaks to adress that

but overall since mixing this formation with my Spalletti's tactic I've only lost one game, away to napoli by being too agressive but will still most likely win the league

Yeah, the formation isn't set in stone and I am no FM veteran. I've been thinking about changing the AF to a Defensive Forward. I dont want the striker to be part of the build up all that much. I want him to push the defense down to make space for the IFs and CMA. In theory. Yet I am having a hard time analyse if I get the best out of the situation by prefering that. I need to test it out. Though the system is designed to counter the high press from a 4-2-3-1 and to put an extra very mobile pivot in front of the defense to screen. I am currently working on a 4-1-2-2-1 (4-3-3) that I want to be my go to tactic. 

Nice results! 20 goals in 35 games isn't bad, you know.  

[davehibb]

@Gegenklaus

I'd be interested to hear how putting one of the IFs on Attack or at least giving one of them the Gets Further Forward PI and keeping them on Support works out.

I'd be tempted to keep the AF as he pushes the line back and creates space in behind for the IFs and CM. Plus of course, he did bag a ton of goals.

KUTGW 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, davehibb said:

@Gegenklaus

I'd be interested to hear how putting one of the IFs on Attack or at least giving one of them the Gets Further Forward PI and keeping them on Support works out.

I'd be tempted to keep the AF as he pushes the line back and creates space in behind for the IFs and CM. Plus of course, he did bag a ton of goals.

KUTGW 

Yeah, good idea. I think I will start with the Gets Further Forward PI, though having him on an Attack duty means he stays high and it could help our counter attacking ability. And also it would replicate how Tuchel had at least two players high up when defending. 

The amount of goals isn't solely because of this system. I changed it a lot during the season, and Auba is just a beast. Extremely consistent. Also I did praise the players a lot after each match. Everyone who played well got a praise from me. It almost feels like that aslong as the lads are happy they will play well no matter what I tell them to do.

[cez]

13 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Yeah, the formation isn't set in stone and I am no FM veteran. I've been thinking about changing the AF to a Defensive Forward. I dont want the striker to be part of the build up all that much. I want him to push the defense down to make space for the IFs and CMA. In theory. Yet I am having a hard time analyse if I get the best out of the situation by prefering that. I need to test it out. Though the system is designed to counter the high press from a 4-2-3-1 and to put an extra very mobile pivot in front of the defense to screen. I am currently working on a 4-1-2-2-1 (4-3-3) that I want to be my go to tactic. 

Nice results! 20 goals in 35 games isn't bad, you know.  

yeah well Auba is a different player than Icardi so I'd definitely want to use his pace as well, however I will definitely try Maurito as a CF maybe or DLF as Spalletti encourages him to help with the build up a bit more than usual, something what Lewandowski was told to do at the beginning of his career. Good luck with the 433!

haha ofc 20 in 35 isnt bad at all but considering they've upped his finishing to like 18-19 this year and recent years he was able to score 40-50 goals a season I know he definitely is capable of more than 20

[davehibb]

6 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Yeah, good idea. I think I will start with the Gets Further Forward PI, though having him on an Attack duty means he stays high and it could help our counter attacking ability. And also it would replicate how Tuchel had at least two players high up when defending. 

The amount of goals isn't solely because of this system. I changed it a lot during the season, and Auba is just a beast. Extremely consistent. Also I did praise the players a lot after each match. Everyone who played well got a praise from me. It almost feels like that aslong as the lads are happy they will play well no matter what I tell them to do.

Looking forward to seeing how you get on and with the 4-3-3 too. Though I suppose your current system must morph into a 4-3-3 of sorts anyway?

How do the fullbacks contribute? Maybe have the one on the opposite side of the IF that you put on Attack, on Attack too? To offer a little variety in the play?

[Gegenklaus]

5 minutes ago, cez said:

yeah well Auba is a different player than Icardi so I'd definitely want to use his pace as well, however I will definitely try Maurito as a CF maybe or DLF as Spalletti encourages him to help with the build up a bit more than usual, something what Lewandowski was told to do at the beginning of his career. Good luck with the 433!

haha ofc 20 in 35 isnt bad at all but considering they've upped his finishing to like 18-19 this year and recent years he was able to score 40-50 goals a season I know he definitely is capable of more than 20

Just had a look at Icardi, and oh my God, what a player. Very complete though with a vision of just 10 I would ask him to keep things simple in the build up. His off the ball is immense! And thanks!

 

3 minutes ago, davehibb said:

Looking forward to seeing how you get on and with the 4-3-3 too. Though I suppose your current system must morph into a 4-3-3 of sorts anyway?

How do the fullbacks contribute? Maybe have the one on the opposite side of the IF that you put on Attack, on Attack too? To offer a little variety in the play?

Their main job is to provide the width and even on support I see them doing a lot of forward runs and overlap. I am playing on a really high mentality (Control/Attacking), so they have a high mentality already. Though I want them to keep things simple. They just need to be a wide passing outlet and stretch the opposition.

[davehibb]

5 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Their main job is to provide the width and even on support I see them doing a lot of forward runs and overlap. I am playing on a really high mentality (Control/Attacking), so they have a high mentality already. Though I want them to keep things simple. They just need to be a wide passing outlet and stretch the opposition.

Ah, if they are behaving like that anyway then there's no need to change I don't think.

Looking forward to further updates. I usually have a BVB save at some point and I doubt this year will be any different.

[Gegenklaus]

5 minutes ago, davehibb said:

Ah, if they are behaving like that anyway then there's no need to change I don't think.

Looking forward to further updates. I usually have a BVB save at some point and I doubt this year will be any different.

They got a really great team this year. Though missing some quality when it comes to the defenders. A right back (I'm waiting on getting Passlack back), a left footed quality CD and a better GK. They have two of my favourite players in the game. The first being Julian Weigl - the future captain of the team - and Mahmoud Dahoud, who I will label as the next Gundogan if he can evolve his mental stats and passing ability. I've spend a whole season trying to up his Determination from 11. I got it to 13 now! Tried the same with Weigl, but didnt work out. Even Reus couldnt make him more determined. 

And as always BVB has some incredible talent. Isak (complete!), Pulisic, Passlack, Sancho, Zagadou and Bruun Larsen.

Though their squad also has a lot of deadwood in the likes of Durm, Subotic and so on.

[cez]

12 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Just had a look at Icardi, and oh my God, what a player. Very complete though with a vision of just 10 I would ask him to keep things simple in the build up. His off the ball is immense! And thanks!

 

Their main job is to provide the width and even on support I see them doing a lot of forward runs and overlap. I am playing on a really high mentality (Control/Attacking), so they have a high mentality already. Though I want them to keep things simple. They just need to be a wide passing outlet and stretch the opposition.

I swear he's broken for me, he rarely scores but has like 10 assists with 10 vision and pretty low passing/flair... oh well love him irl but if psg/BPL clubs offer like 120-150 which i know they do I might just sell him having Pinamonti and Pellegri in the team

[davehibb]

7 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

They got a really great team this year. Though missing some quality when it comes to the defenders. A right back (I'm waiting on getting Passlack back), a left footed quality CD and a better GK. They have two of my favourite players in the game. The first being Julian Weigl - the future captain of the team - and Mahmoud Dahoud, who I will label as the next Gundogan if he can evolve his mental stats and passing ability. I've spend a whole season trying to up his Determination from 11. I got it to 13 now! Tried the same with Weigl, but didnt work out. Even Reus couldnt make him more determined. 

And as always BVB has some incredible talent. Isak (complete!), Pulisic, Passlack, Sancho, Zagadou and Bruun Larsen.

Though their squad also has a lot of deadwood in the likes of Durm, Subotic and so on.

Yeah, it's always fun with the prospects and having a few players that can be offloaded pretty easily to fund a new signing or two. Burki definitely needs replacing and a better DC bringing in. I'm not sure about Passlack as a DR though. I think I'd try and train him as an IF or maybe even the SV? :o

Haven't got FM18 yet, so I'm only going off his FM17 attributes from memory.

[Gegenklaus]

 

1 minute ago, davehibb said:

Yeah, it's always fun with the prospects and having a few players that can be offloaded pretty easily to fund a new signing or two. Burki definitely needs replacing and a better DC bringing in. I'm not sure about Passlack as a DR though. I think I'd try and train him as an IF or maybe even the SV? :o

Haven't got FM18 yet, so I'm only going off his FM17 attributes from memory.

Uh, that would be interesting! The stats are pretty much the same. 

[davehibb]

@Gegenklaus how's the project coming along?

I've just completed my first season with BVB, winning the Bundesliga and Super Pokal and at the start of season two, we are very impressive indeed.

The system I'm using isn't a replication of anyone's, just fitting in the guys we had in the squad, supplemented by a few signings.

SK-D
WBR-S
WBL-S
CD-D
CD-D
DLP-D
CM-S
MEZ-S
RW-S
IF-A
AF-A

That's the basic set up. PEA had 37 goals in 33 games in the Bundesliga. So far he has 7 in 3 in season two. Needless to say, I'm quite enjoying it.