The School Of Defensive Arts 2015

[Cleon]

And for the benefit of the doubters who think the dynamics will be different when they have two strikers, I will add analysis of the same game before the sending off at the weekend to prove the point and show you not a single thing changed in terms of positioning or them being more of a threat.

[RTHerringbone]

I'll hold off mentioning how many I actually score too in the analysis then :o:D

That's the last bloody thing I want

Took me eleven seasons with a really stromg sde to finally get to my life-long 3 goals per game total. You're probably getting 3.5

Please prefix any post relating to goals scored with a header of "RT, please don't read this".

[nick1408]

I'll have to read this properly later (time for work) but I used a 3-4-3 a few years ago with a libero and I loved it. I will be looking intently at this tread for inspiration in making it work again

[Cleon]

So yeah, that's how i'd go about it. No idea if it would work at all or not but that's not really the point i guess.

In a longwinded kind of way i'm just trying to understand why you did the following:

Why a BPD and why is he the central CB? Are you looking for a diet-Libero here with perhaps a view to going full fat Libero when you have the player?

You explained why you used a RPM but why that roles rather than say a AP?

You explained the poacher and said you wanted a hard working role up front so that explains the DF but why the hard working role? Why not a creative role? Assuming you dominate the ball wouldn't a creative role be more useful?

Last one, Why a DLF(S) as opposed to a F9, CF(S)? What does the DLF give you that the others dont?

I'd have used a libero if they worked but because they don't the next best thing is a BPD

The RPM is more of a goal threat than a AP and defends better imo. Imagine a box to box midfielder but who is creative and that's what the RMP basically is. That's why I choose it, as it's more of a goal threat when attacking but quite reserved when defending.

I wanted a versatile and different front 3. The poacher is the player high up to finish attacks, the DF is the player chasing the ball down and defending from the front and the DLF is the creative striker. So I did select a create I just didn't select someone less predictable like a F9 or Treq, as they drop very deep. I didn't want them to drop very deep as I'm already deep enough. Both the treq and F9 are highly creative too and while I wanted someone creative, I didn't want it to be too over powering with their roaming. I've tried to pick 3 strikers that will work together. I felt the other roles would have changed the dynamic of this by either being too advanced or too deep, I felt selecting the DLF was the right selection because it offers me a happy medium.

A DLF is like a targetman but more mobile. I did a thread about this not that long ago and explained that I use DLF's instead of target men due to them playing very similar but the DLF being better for movement. A TM is quite a static role and is an extreme because players will always look to hit him with long and direct ball and this could give possession away cheaply. I also didn't consider a CF because I don't want someone to do everything, I want my 3 strikers to have a specific job and stick to it rather than someone who can do a bit of everything

[iownyou]

Why would I pick someone else? I'm playing a long term career save with my club. And regardless of what club I am and what opposition I face I'll get same results as you'll see as the thread develops.

For the reasons I stated. I know your tactics will act the same regardless of club, but would the opposition act the same ? Would for instance Yeovil play away to sheffield united as they would away to Crewe?

[Kamakazeee]

Following on from my post above, I have pretty much hammered home my style of play to my team now, clearing up many issues with one simple change of a midfield role. This thread really isn't getting the credit it deserves from a few people, Im not sure it really matters who Cleon plays in his screenshots or how many players are on the pitch, hes not trying to get anyone to download anything, hes doesnt need to convince anyone of anything. He is merely just showing how he creates a tactic and promoting a brand of football. As the old cliche says "you can only beat who is infront of you".

Anywho, moving on.

Im always looking for new ideas and innovative ways to bring a new sense of challenge in a tactical sense. Making defensive football stylish, potent and effective, sounds like a intriguing yet not impossible challenge to me. (before anyone comments, I am on FM14 here).

Okay to kick things off, heres a look at my formation and team instructions.

Nothing to too flash, 3 banks of players in terms of the formation. The team instructions are again nothing to hard to get your head around, they focus on keeping the ball, keeping compact in shape, playing a slow game patient game. I allowed the pass ball into space shout to give the players the option to release the ball when they see fit instead of passing the ball for the sake of it, negating the risk of inviting pressure. I do tend to tweak game to game, but thats just seems to be the pass into space option and tempo, but thats only for home games where we dominate possession anyway.

The keeper is nothing special, just instructed to play the ball out to the defense.

The defenders again are nothing special, two stoppers and cover. The BPD on cover is set to act like a Libero and plays his way out of defense.

The midfielders are simple to figure out, DLP sits, the wingers act like complete wingbacks except they cut in when attacking to over load the defense. The CM (A) primarilary sits and holds the midfield, albeit a tad more advanced than the DLP, however when he has the ball he is instructed to act like a central winger.

The attack is still under work, but the defensive forward is the hounder, he closes down just about everything and lays balls off to more creative players. The advanced forward plays on the shoulder much like a poacher and the F9 is basically a reversed Shadow striker, drops deep, but also closes down and attacks.

Nothing to difficult,a defensive tactic pimped up. But, does it work. Well heres a few screens from my last match.

Ok the above screenshot shows exactly how my defensive system is set upto work. The opposition has recovered the ball, my team has pretty much dropped back into a reseasonable shape in my half (barr the advanced forward). In red you can see my defenders and wingers have negated any attacking option open to the man on the ball by man marking them. The yellow symbolises my strikers and Box to Box midfielder putting presssure to the man on the ball and any options that pose a threat in there eyes near the ball. Finally, in blue is the DLP holding his position in the centre of my team ensuring there is no open spaces for passes or runs to enter the space. In the end we recover the ball and the screen shot below shows what happens:

So a defensive system with swagger, who would have thought it. I have managed to score 3.2 goals a game over the course of the season and managed to concede just 0.6 goals a game. Decent results if you ask me. Again top work on this thread Cleon.

[olivermain83]

This is probably where my logic fails me. I'm far too fixated on getting movement between the lines rather than how the strikers will play together. I have to admit my first though was how can turn two of the forwards into midfielders.

[Cleon]

For the reasons I stated. I know your tactics will act the same regardless of club, but would the opposition act the same ? Would for instance Yeovil play away to sheffield united as they would away to Crewe?

But you're acting like I face the same kind of teams constantly, which if you do then you're mistaken. Yes we are a big club in this league but Bristol are the favourites for the league not me. Also clubs like Preston, Bristol, Swindon, MK are all classed just as big and will all be very attacking against me. How teams play against other teams doesn't matter its meaningless, all that matters is how I approach the teams I face, nothing more. Even if I'm in League One I can still beat the bigger teams frequently if I get them in the cup and it'll be the same when I get promoted. I spoke recently about how to approach different types of games i.e beating attacking sides and defensive ones in this very thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term

All that's important is we see how the system works against all teams and all the different formations. Hence why I'm likely to do all match analysis for every game I play.

[Cleon]

Following on from my post above, I have pretty much hammered home my style of play to my team now, clearing up many issues with one simple change of a midfield role. This thread really isn't getting the credit it deserves from a few people, Im not sure it really matters who Cleon plays in his screenshots or how many players are on the pitch, hes not trying to get anyone to download anything, hes doesnt need to convince anyone of anything. He is merely just showing how he creates a tactic and promoting a brand of football. As the old cliche says "you can only beat who is infront of you".

Anywho, moving on.

Im always looking for new ideas and innovative ways to bring a new sense of challenge in a tactical sense. Making defensive football stylish, potent and effective, sounds like a intriguing yet not impossible challenge to me. (before anyone comments, I am on FM14 here).

Okay to kick things off, heres a look at my formation and team instructions.

Nothing to too flash, 3 banks of players in terms of the formation. The team instructions are again nothing to hard to get your head around, they focus on keeping the ball, keeping compact in shape, playing a slow game patient game. I allowed the pass ball into space shout to give the players the option to release the ball when they see fit instead of passing the ball for the sake of it, negating the risk of inviting pressure. I do tend to tweak game to game, but thats just seems to be the pass into space option and tempo, but thats only for home games where we dominate possession anyway.

The keeper is nothing special, just instructed to play the ball out to the defense.

The defenders again are nothing special, two stoppers and cover. The BPD on cover is set to act like a Libero and plays his way out of defense.

The midfielders are simple to figure out, DLP sits, the wingers act like complete wingbacks except they cut in when attacking to over load the defense. The CM (A) primarilary sits and holds the midfield, albeit a tad more advanced than the DLP, however when he has the ball he is instructed to act like a central winger.

The attack is still under work, but the defensive forward is the hounder, he closes down just about everything and lays balls off to more creative players. The advanced forward plays on the shoulder much like a poacher and the F9 is basically a reversed Shadow striker, drops deep, but also closes down and attacks.

Nothing to difficult,a defensive tactic pimped up. But, does it work. Well heres a few screens from my last match.

Ok the above screenshot shows exactly how my defensive system is set upto work. The opposition has recovered the ball, my team has pretty much dropped back into a reseasonable shape in my half (barr the advanced forward). In red you can see my defenders and wingers have negated any attacking option open to the man on the ball by man marking them. The yellow symbolises my strikers and Box to Box midfielder putting presssure to the man on the ball and any options that pose a threat in there eyes near the ball. Finally, in blue is the DLP holding his position in the centre of my team ensuring there is no open spaces for passes or runs to enter the space. In the end we recover the ball and the screen shot below shows what happens:

So a defensive system with swagger, who would have thought it. I have managed to score 3.2 goals a game over the course of the season and managed to concede just 0.6 goals a game. Decent results if you ask me. Again top work on this thread Cleon.

Good post

How do you find the 2 stoppers and a cover work? On FM14 I found they would step up far too frequent for my liking.

[Cleon]

This is probably where my logic fails me. I'm far too fixated on getting movement between the lines rather than how the strikers will play together. I have to admit my first though was how can turn two of the forwards into midfielders.

In counter and defensive set ups I believe movement is less important. Obviously its still important but not as important as in attacking or control strategies as those push high up and force pressure on the opposition. But this is at a cost of reduced space because you try and camp in their final third. So people need good movement to find, use and create any kind of space. In counter and defensive systems its slightly different because you are deep and get movement from deeper areas pushing and push up.

[Rashidi]

In counter and defensive set ups I believe movement is less important. Obviously its still important but not as important as in attacking or control strategies as those push high up and force pressure on the opposition. But this is at a cost of reduced space because you try and camp in their final third. So people need good movement to find, use and create any kind of space. In counter and defensive systems its slightly different because you are deep and get movement from deeper areas pushing and push up.

I find that in deeper systems players ball control and ability to run with the ball and control it are more vital cause they tend to break behind the lines a lot. There is so much space to exploit against good sides, that the instruction pass into space creates good chances. The only time you need to crack the noggin is when you are a defensive side playing against another defensive side.

[BoxToBox]

I started a new save last night, and armed with a better defensive understanding from this thread(to be fair, you could say I just plagiarised your ideas Cleon... ), tried to play defensive/possession again.

I know it's a bit of a cop out, though as I'm using the probably easiest possession system in 4-3-3, this is what I have...

Smetimes I add a lower tempo or more closing down if I think I need it.

With the keeper told to distribute short and slow to the CB's.

Very successful so far 6 games in with four wins, 2 draws and 0 losses. Every game getting 60-70% possession, predicted 13th out of 16, and tied for the top after a month is promising.

Few things I'm not sure of, though, I the BPD, this was left over from an earlier version with no DMC, so I wanted someone to play from deep, my BPD *is* the DM though, and at the moment I have no real option for the role. Should probably change it, but I'm loathe to change something that's working. I'm not too sure the CM(a) is helping either but I (perhaps mistakenly) believe I need an attacking threat from midfield, nor am I sure of the wide forwards, though they're effective enough so far.

I began without pass into space, but found in attack my team dithered on the edge of the box(perhaps my fault), and drew tackles, giving the ball up too easily. This helped, as they now find the wingers and striker more, if there's a chance on.

[Cleon]

I find that in deeper systems players ball control and ability to run with the ball and control it are more vital cause they tend to break behind the lines a lot. There is so much space to exploit against good sides, that the instruction pass into space creates good chances. The only time you need to crack the noggin is when you are a defensive side playing against another defensive side.

I agree, I should point out I was just talking about strikers above. They're already deep so movement they do should all be natural without forcing them to do more movement by encouraging them to come even deeper. It can be a nightmare in a defensive set up when you utilise players who drop back off the strikers position back into the midfield. It can make it incredibly difficult to get the ball into the final third if you don't have some kind of outlet or target to aim for that slightly bit higher than the rest of the team. For the deeper players though movement is everything.

Pass into space is probably my favourite on the game for playing those attacking sides. Let them come on to me and over commit then just pass the ball in behind with throughballs for the runners to get on the end of. It's a brilliant strategy to use

[Cleon]

I started a new save last night, and armed with a better defensive understanding from this thread(to be fair, you could say I just plagiarised your ideas Cleon... ), tried to play defensive/possession again.

I know it's a bit of a cop out, though as I'm using the probably easiest possession system in 4-3-3, this is what I have...

Smetimes I add a lower tempo or more closing down if I think I need it.

With the keeper told to distribute short and slow to the CB's.

Very successful so far 6 games in with four wins, 2 draws and 0 losses. Every game getting 60-70% possession, predicted 13th out of 16, and tied for the top after a month is promising.

Few things I'm not sure of, though, I the BPD, this was left over from an earlier version with no DMC, so I wanted someone to play from deep, my BPD *is* the DM though, and at the moment I have no real option for the role. Should probably change it, but I'm loathe to change something that's working. I'm not too sure the CM(a) is helping either but I (perhaps mistakenly) believe I need an attacking threat from midfield, nor am I sure of the wide forwards, though they're effective enough so far.

I began without pass into space, but found in attack my team dithered on the edge of the box(perhaps my fault), and drew tackles, giving the ball up too easily. This helped, as they now find the wingers and striker more, if there's a chance on.

I like this set up there is nothing wrong with it at all, it's really well balanced and you have a bit of everything and lots of movement. The only questionable thing for me is the BPD, you don't really need one if you have a DLP in the DMC spot as they both basically do the same thing. But because its working I'd leave it, but that is the only bit of questioning I'd do. Apart from that I'd say that's as near perfect as you can get imo.

[Dave Vessey]

Great read as always Cleon (though one of these days I'll get you to use Wednesday instead of United - we're rich now remember!)

Any thoughts on supporting PPMs for this setup?

[BoxToBox]

I like this set up there is nothing wrong with it at all, it's really well balanced and you have a bit of everything and lots of movement. The only questionable thing for me is the BPD, you don't really need one if you have a DLP in the DMC spot as they both basically do the same thing. But because its working I'd leave it, but that is the only bit of questioning I'd do. Apart from that I'd say that's as near perfect as you can get imo.

Cheers! I'm definitely delight with it.

[Cleon]

Great read as always Cleon (though one of these days I'll get you to use Wednesday instead of United - we're rich now remember!)

Any thoughts on supporting PPMs for this setup?

I really fancied a game with them the other week but resisted for now. On older FM's I used to manage all 3 Sheffield teams, it took a bit of time but was incredibly enjoyable. Only fault was when I got so far and all competed in the same leagues

I have some PPM's in mind to enhance the style which I hope to post up this weekend. They are mainly for the roaming playmaker, defensive forward and ball playing defender though.

[Rashidi]

Pass into space is probably my favourite on the game for playing those attacking sides. Let them come on to me and over commit then just pass the ball in behind with throughballs for the runners to get on the end of. It's a brilliant strategy to use

Easily my fav shout against a 4231 or a gung ho 424

[johnnyyakuza78]

Great thread Cleon, it has totally inspired me.

One thing however, I've noticed in all of your defensive tactics, you seem to favour 'retain possession' and shorter passing. I've often tried to emulate the Pulis style, as in my mind he plays defensively but also plays more direct or route one football.

Do you think playing route one and defensively is viable in the game? Or will it simply concede far too much possession and set you up for a battering?

[Kamakazeee]

Good post

How do you find the 2 stoppers and a cover work? On FM14 I found they would step up far too frequent for my liking.

Thankyou

Not too bad at the moment, if I'm playing against two strikers I get my outter center backs to man mark the opposition strikers and this still allows me the extra defender in the middle to mop up. The biggest issue I have is when playing one striker and a attacking midfielder in the pocket that does seem to draw my stoppers out, however seeing as im in the lower leagues I'm confident my players will come out on top or if i lose the ball the opposition doesn't possess the required quality to hurt me. I haven't found it too extreme yet though, I guess if it did get too extreme i could try asking the team to "stand off" and then asking each player i wanted to close down to do so. I dont think this is something im going to have to deal with until i play better opposition though, or maybe it is just a drawback of the tactic, every tactic has them.

[Cleon]

Great thread Cleon, it has totally inspired me.

One thing however, I've noticed in all of your defensive tactics, you seem to favour 'retain possession' and shorter passing. I've often tried to emulate the Pulis style, as in my mind he plays defensively but also plays more direct or route one football.

Do you think playing route one and defensively is viable in the game? Or will it simply concede far too much possession and set you up for a battering?

Defenders on a defensive mentality to do play more direct and the strikers a shorter passing game. What I've created is something that doesn't needlessly give the ball away, the issue is, if you go route one or very direct then you need to play on a higher mentality really or you'll not have players far enough up the field. Or you'll find that support is lacking for the front players when they do get the ball. Obviously I'm talking really direct/long ball here and not the average direct passing game.

[johnnyyakuza78]

hmm thanks. So if I wanted to go all Pulis, then maybe some PIs for the defenders to go more direct and a couple of limited defender roles instead?

[Cleon]

hmm thanks. So if I wanted to go all Pulis, then maybe some PIs for the defenders to go more direct and a couple of limited defender roles instead?

The shape will be the most important thing as you need to defend solid and be hard to break down yet at the same time play long balls constantly. So you'll need players in positions that will allow for this and can take advantage of it by committing men forward. If not the striker(s) will be isolated.

[the SLC]

i think it maybe time for you to enlighten us with the number of goals scored and top scorer!!!

[Cleon]

i think it maybe time for you to enlighten us with the number of goals scored and top scorer!!!

Nah not rushing ahead

[the SLC]

Nah not rushing ahead

Fair enough

Im really struggling to implement this in my new save. I have no idea what Im doing! lol

[Cleon]

Fair enough

Im really struggling to implement this in my new save. I have no idea what Im doing! lol

The idea is you don't copy but you use the ideas to make your own defensive version work.

[the SLC]

yeah i have, just find it difficult to understand what im seeing play out on screen. went for a 451. defensive settings etc. just seem to get over run and not sure how to combat it

[Cleon]

yeah i have, just find it difficult to understand what im seeing play out on screen. went for a 451. defensive settings etc. just seem to get over run and not sure how to combat it

Look at the players being over run or the areas you are being over run in, pause the game just before the move happens by rewinding and see how players are positioned. It'll also help you see what they are actually doing during the 90 minutes. Do this at random times both with and without the ball and you'll be able to see any gaps, holes or players in the wrong positions.

[nick1408]

I'd have used a libero if they worked but because they don't the next best thing is a BPD

This is what I had going in FM13 which I loved. Obviously cannot recreate it now but it did give me a lot of joy because I created it myself - http://imgur.com/gallery/Cihxf

Anyway, Do you find you dominate the end of games? I have copied your tactic as the basis for my team (I know, not for copying) but am gradually changing it because I don't need to be really defensive. I get plenty of shots away but they just aren't quality shots. My last game I dominated possession but 62%-38% with an 82% completion rate, shots I got 22 away but only 9 were on target - this includes only 7 long shots, of which a few were free kicks. I did win 3-1 (their goal from a corner)

What I am thinking of doing is to stay defensive rather than counter but to get the players to work the ball into the box until they have learnt the tactic fully. This should result in less shots but hopefully more quality shots. The issue I can see is the box getting crowded but I'm hoping with the defensive roles that players stay on the edge of the box rather than get into it. I think only the strikers and RPM should get into scoring positions with the other players outside to support.

I will test this all out later (cricket finals now) but it will have me thinking about it in the field today.

[the SLC]

Look at the players being over run or the areas you are being over run in, pause the game just before the move happens by rewinding and see how players are positioned. It'll also help you see what they are actually doing during the 90 minutes. Do this at random times both with and without the ball and you'll be able to see any gaps, holes or players in the wrong positions.

will do cheers for the advice!!

[batkodz]

Having played around with this for a few days in the Lega Pro (Not because I want to directly copy, but because I want to see how it works before changing or adapting it) two thoughts:

1. The defensive mentality really opens up the potential of back three formations. The team really uses the whole pitch and especially deep spaces. Whenever I've played a back three in the past on a higher mentality I found the three center backs to be rarely used in the attacking phase, which became a problem especially against deep lying single striker formations. We would be outnumbered higher up the pitch constantly trying to bash our way through never looking to play the ball back leaving us frustrated and vulnerable on the counter. With the defensive mentality I've seen a willingness to move the ball back into deeper space and recirculate pulling the defense out of shape or hitting a ball from deep over the top. Coupled with the 3 strikers pinning the back line we seem to be able to create little pockets of space that if used well make us absolutely lethal.

2. This is as great system for long term play as practically any player type can find a home somewhere. You could create a squad of such interesting contrasts. Some games you might play the deeper lying strikers as physically imposing hard workers, or you might play two number ten types or wingers or whatever the needs of the day might be. Same roles vastly different outcomes. And this remains true throughout the various positions.

I look forward to seeing more about how you got along during the season. How you solved (or didn't!) the particular issues you encountered and so forth. It's really great work that opens up new discoveries within this game we all play much too much. And at least in this corner is greatly appreciated.

[mdougal]

Hi Cleon great thread yet again you really do have an almost unrivalled eye for this game.

I apologise for lack of screenshots with this as other than finding myself here and playing I am really a novice with computers.

My question/observation maybe not what you had planned for this and if that is the case no worries.

I have spent the last few years buying the fm series and without any luck finding my own ways to play I have basically downloaded other peoples tactics which has always proven to be less fun and worthwhile.

So after being this version 2 weeks ago I did my usual open a save with a decent top level team and just throw any old tactic out there which obviously didn't work.

So I took time to read through your constructing a team thread and the how to play thread and decided to try to pay attention to what I was actually doing and treat this like a simulation rather than a game.

I took over Sassuolo in Italy and with a little bit of money managed to bring in a few players that I felt would fit.

The way I chose to play was

Sweeper keeper

Bpd. Cd. Bpd

Dm (on defensive)

Winger(support). Roaming playmaker(support). Wide midfielder (support)

Raudemeter(attack). Advanced playmaker(support)

Deep lying forward (support)

Mentality-attacking. Fluid

Close down more often

Short passing

Pass into space

Now I've just finished 3rd in serie a and won the Italian cup, and have enjoyed the success of at least creating something myself, and I managed to get my raudemeter to top score with 37 goals in all comps (Domenico berardi) and my deep lying forward to score 31 in all comps (simone zaza) and have just bought Kevin de bruyne in the summer and sold zaza as I felt I would get even more from berardi directly infront of goal.

Anyway sorry for rambling and this isn't. A post about players in general just wanted to give some idea of who I was talking about at least.

My question to you is after seeing my side perform great all year and batter quite a few of the top teams aswell as holding Juve 3-3 away and 1-1 home aswell as beating them in the cup it's very easy for me to think I have cracked it and stay the same but after reading through this thread it's got me wondering if change can also bring about more success and although only finished 9 points off juve in 1st maybe there are new ideas to gain that extra inch.

Also playing in the champions league (if get through the qualifying round) maybe I'd be too open against the top sides although the apparent weakness I thought I may have in the wide areas didn't quite materialise as between the wide centre backs and dm I seemed to close down that space pretty well on the whole.

I appreciate without screenshots it's difficult to really see what is going on but I wondered if you had any input into the balance of change of play either as a whole or between games as after reading your thread I can certainly appreciate the art of although not defensive in how we see the word at least setting that mentality to begin and feel I could possibly learn a new way that may help me find a level of success finally with an idea straight form my head rather than downloading someone's "super tactic".

For no other purpose other than you seeing how I am currently set up I'll put my "new" team up set for the 2nd season

Consigli (sk)

Marquinhos (bpd) Balanta (cd). Mammana (bpd)

Vrsajko (defensive mid-defend)

Sansone (winger-support) Lucas Romero (roaming playmaker-support). Dockal (winger-support)

De Bruyne (raudemeter-attack) jose Sosa (advanced playmaker-support)

Berardi (deep lying forward-support)

Attacking mentality fluid.

The dm is deep slightly to right

The roaming playmaker is inline with wide players slightly to left

The raudemeter is from the right wing and the advanced playmaker is in one from the left

Sorry for the long post and thank you for all your effort you put into all of this it has certainly given me some enjoyment

[CamillePunk]

Having grown bored of my 4-1-4-1 attacking/pressing system (albeit on Counter mentality), I've decided to try my hand at a defensive, possession-oriented system in my current Liverpool save. The quality of my players is very high so results will be skewed but I like to test my tactics with ongoing saves before creating a whole new save and going through all the preseason motions just to see if a tactic does/doesn't work! Also getting some thoughts on some of my choices would be appreciated.

Mentality: Defensive

Team Shape: Flexible

As you can see I've gone for the 4-3-3, my preferred shape now that AM players aren't complete defensive liabilities anymore.

Way more TIs than I usually use, but I need to ensure my defenders play it out from the back rather than hoofing it, as they are keen to do on lower mentalities. "Be More Disciplined" is to help keep shape, but I do use PIs and roles to make sure my creative players are still creative. "Much Lower Tempo" I will drop against sides that press me. In standoffish matches I will use "Close Down More" and "Push Higher Up", and drop "Pass Into Space".

Player Instructions:

GK: Pass it Shorter, Fewer Risky Passes, Roll it Out, Slow Pace Down, Distribute to Centerbacks. (honestly my GK still likes to hoof it needlessly...very annoying)

My back four and DM all have "Pass it Shorter" only.

Both CMs have "Shoot Less Often" only.

Both Wingers have "More Risky Passes" only. I do want my attacking players to be creative despite the team instructions and fluidity.

Results with this have been very good, with only the odd goal conceded due to a long shot that took an unlucky deflection. More importantly my attack is the best it's ever been, despite the defensive mentality and the more disciplined, patient approach (or rather because of!). Just as many shots as usual (20-30) but more of them on-target, and the quality of chances is better overall. Also possession is much better as it should be. Very keen to give this a go in a new save with a weaker side, now that I know it should be viable, with perhaps only minor tweaks needed. Will report back once I've made progress on that front.

[MR11]

I find this thread pretty constructive, it's just that this isn't defensive football. 30 shots, 70% possession rate, it's not defensive, although it uses Defensive mentality and keeps clean sheets. Playing defensively isn't the same as keeping clean sheets.

That being said, the possession-based system you are creating is really good, players' positioning is as good as the base shape allows. Could you post Average positions from any match statistics?

[olivermain83]

I find this thread pretty constructive, it's just that this isn't defensive football. 30 shots, 70% possession rate, it's not defensive, although it uses Defensive mentality and keeps clean sheets. Playing defensively isn't the same as keeping clean sheets.

That being said, the possession-based system you are creating is really good, players' positioning is as good as the base shape allows. Could you post Average positions from any match statistics?

Clean sheets and low shots against are surely the only thing worth considering when deciding if you're defensive or not. Playing keep ball is being defensive in my book.

[CamillePunk]

As a follow-up to my previous post, I've decided to start in the Championship with Bournemouth (projected to finish 13th). Their squad really fits my 4-3-3 so I won't have to do much in the first offseason, which is a huge plus for me. That said I did buy Liam Kelly from Oldham to play DLP(D).

My first league match is away to Huddersfield, and while my tactic isn't fully fluid yet it went really well:

We kept possession well, created some great chances and were absolutely clinical in front of goal. Defensively we really didn't let them have much except ambitious shots from range, one of which unfortunately beat our keeper. Was an absolute screamer, and he was well closed down by my DM so I can't really fault the tactic. Annoyingly, it came 30 seconds after my hard-worked opening goal.

Just wanted to point out that I'm playing a striker (with zero competency in any other position) at AML, and he scored a hat-trick. So, positional familiarity is really not all that important.

Goals came from my IF(3), W(2), and BBM. Each of my front 5 managed assists. We have many different avenues to score with in this tactic and we used each of them to their fullest in this match.

So yeah, that's what "defensive" football can do in FM.

[jakem016]

Considering your goals against record (congrats on that by the way), I wanted to ask about how well the dws are defending wide ams? I've been playing around a lot with different 3 cb shapes and have had problems with the wide midfielders defending wide ams (they seem to defend much better as wbs). I've been very successful against shapes without wide ams, but I found that my wide midfielders would regularly lose their man and he would regularly get played through on goal. Do they often lose their man when the opposition is in possession? If not, do you think that their is a massive difference in how dws defend on defensive vs counter (most of my 3 atb tactics have been on counter or control)? Also, I read your thread a couple of days ago on your web site and I apologize if you mentioned it and I simply forgot, but what kind of players are you using as dws? Are they more traditional fbs or wbs playing in the wide midfield role or are they more conventional wingers? Anyway, this is a great thread and I'm looking forward to reading more. Thanks!

[Cleon]

Some great posts above, its good to see people putting their own ideas into practise and having success

I find this thread pretty constructive, it's just that this isn't defensive football. 30 shots, 70% possession rate, it's not defensive, although it uses Defensive mentality and keeps clean sheets. Playing defensively isn't the same as keeping clean sheets.

That being said, the possession-based system you are creating is really good, players' positioning is as good as the base shape allows. Could you post Average positions from any match statistics?

Yes it is defensive football. You just fail to realise that there is more than one type of defensive football.

[Cleon]

Considering your goals against record (congrats on that by the way), I wanted to ask about how well the dws are defending wide ams? I've been playing around a lot with different 3 cb shapes and have had problems with the wide midfielders defending wide ams (they seem to defend much better as wbs). I've been very successful against shapes without wide ams, but I found that my wide midfielders would regularly lose their man and he would regularly get played through on goal. Do they often lose their man when the opposition is in possession? If not, do you think that their is a massive difference in how dws defend on defensive vs counter (most of my 3 atb tactics have been on counter or control)? Also, I read your thread a couple of days ago on your web site and I apologize if you mentioned it and I simply forgot, but what kind of players are you using as dws? Are they more traditional fbs or wbs playing in the wide midfield role or are they more conventional wingers? Anyway, this is a great thread and I'm looking forward to reading more. Thanks!

I don't really have any issues with them at all. I use more defensive minded players rather than attacking ones for the role, after all its their defensive abilities I want not the attacking ones. What kind of set up are you using them in?

[fanir]

Super thread Cleon!

However, I'm not having much luck incorporating it into my shape. I'm using a 451/4141 setup and against tougher sides, I seem to get pinned in my own box for the most part of the game. In fact, it's acting the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve, none of the impressive possession stats seen here.

Defense too deep, giving the ball away immediately after winning it, gets tackled easily and lastly, no matter what, my GK always lumps it upfield for them to restart the onslaught all over again, even after I had set him to roll it out to fullbacks, slow pace and shorter passing.

Have I got it all wrong? Here's how I have my team set up.

Structured/Defensive Mentality

Help!

[Torskus77]

I'm not Cleon, but I can advise a few pointers based on your tactic that may help from my experiences.

Firstly I'd advise a change of fluidity, I have played with that shape and used structured, I'm not saying it can't work because it can, but you only really have one specialist role. I've used that shape too, and I found it opened it up much more when using Flexible. I also feel with a flat 5 across the middle, you are relying on some players breaking from their positions, so using more disciplined may be making you a bit flat. Same with play narrower, do you really need to be narrow when you are so spread across the middle of the pitch? I don't know how it will plays out, but I am thinking that Cleon's set up already has players positioned higher up the pitch, and you really need players getting forward from their starting position when you are in possession.

[Cleon]

Super thread Cleon!

However, I'm not having much luck incorporating it into my shape. I'm using a 451/4141 setup and against tougher sides, I seem to get pinned in my own box for the most part of the game. In fact, it's acting the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve, none of the impressive possession stats seen here.

Defense too deep, giving the ball away immediately after winning it, gets tackled easily and lastly, no matter what, my GK always lumps it upfield for them to restart the onslaught all over again, even after I had set him to roll it out to fullbacks, slow pace and shorter passing.

Have I got it all wrong? Here's how I have my team set up.

Structured/Defensive Mentality

Help!

Well I explained a few times why a support striker as a lone striker is a bad idea in a defensive set up in the articles. You're basically playing strikerless and have no immediate goal threat. Where are the goals going to come from? Who do you expect to score them? How do you get the ball from defence to midfield? Having a deep striker means you have no target up front to aim for Have you read the posts? I get the feeling you haven't or if you have, you've skipped lots of it.

The issues are;

• Who scores the goals?
  
• Who is supplying them?
  
• No-one to aim for upfront so you will struggle to get out of your own half
  
• You use a wide formation yet want to play narrow why?
  
• Play out of defence yet don't use a role that really allows for that.
  

Also why the lower tempo and why more disciplined when you only have 1 playmaker? I'm not sure your reasoning behind them or the style of defensive football you are trying to create? Your formation says one thing then the instructions another.

[MR11]

Clean sheets and low shots against are surely the only thing worth considering when deciding if you're defensive or not. Playing keep ball is being defensive in my book.

Bayern Munich conceded only 18 goals in 2012/13, so, they actually played defensively? Yeah, right.

Yes it is defensive football. You just fail to realise that there is more than one type of defensive football.

Nope, I just realise that there is a difference between possession football and defensive one.

[Cleon]

Lol you can't be that naive surely? You've seen what one game of mine and jump to amazing conclusions? Please go elsewhere, I have no time for people like you.

[RTHerringbone]

Bayern Munich conceded only 18 goals in 2012/13, so, they actually played defensively? Yeah, right.

This is an odd example and really isn't what olivermain83 was getting at. You seem to have a pigeon-holed definition of "defensive" which you aren't prepared to deviate from, but it is all subjective so hardly worth aiming pot shots at people about.

[Cleon]

I had planned to update at the weekend but sick children got in the way. I hope to have something up during the week though.

[Cleon]

Posts have been deleted and further ones nothing at all to do with the thread will also be deleted. What is wrong with people, seriously!

[fanir]

@Cleon

Apologies for that, I have read your write-ups thrice now and I'll try again. Initially I was just under the impression that the approach would work for most formations as for its only an approach to defending. I now know having to setup players in advanced positions/a route of penetration for attack is ideal for it to work.

As for the bullet points, thank you! I've jotted them down on my little notebook for any strategy I'm looking to create in the future, very helpful.

Anyway, I see that from the 451/4411 formation, it relies heavily on building the ball from deep/runs and if the opposition is pinning me hard in my box, without having my players in advanced positions, it's murder.

I used the narrow shout because I've read that it works in conjunction with shorter passing? Just like closing down with defensive line? The play out of defence shout was so that my defenders won't lump it upfield but play it short to Polanski (CMd) and build from there.

Lower tempo, was like you said, to hold on to the ball more while be more disciplined, in my eyes, would be an off-the-ball instruction, to force the players to go back into position quickly?

Maybe I'm hijacking your thread and disrupting the discussion further with my newbie-ish questions, so I ought to create my help thread soon, but I do really appreciate the responses!

[fanir]

I'm not Cleon, but I can advise a few pointers based on your tactic that may help from my experiences.

Firstly I'd advise a change of fluidity, I have played with that shape and used structured, I'm not saying it can't work because it can, but you only really have one specialist role. I've used that shape too, and I found it opened it up much more when using Flexible. I also feel with a flat 5 across the middle, you are relying on some players breaking from their positions, so using more disciplined may be making you a bit flat. Same with play narrower, do you really need to be narrow when you are so spread across the middle of the pitch? I don't know how it will plays out, but I am thinking that Cleon's set up already has players positioned higher up the pitch, and you really need players getting forward from their starting position when you are in possession.

Thank you Torkus77 for that,

My initial idea was for the players not to be too far apart in terms of mentality but I'll definitely experiment with Flexible!