Why I am Waiting for next year until I buy FM15.

[daylight]

That is not true. SI release a free demo every year!

Here a link to information of how to get the FM14 one...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368029

I don't understand why people would choose the options in the poll...

"wait until patch"

"wait until reviews"

When they can make their own minds up with a FREE demo and then decide to buy or not.

As it has been discussed in other threads I will keep it short.

Things like the AI squad building can not be judged by playing the demo.

[Smurf]

Well waiting for the patch means that they don't want to play a game that's buggy - so waiting for the patch makes sense to them when all bugs are fixed.

Waiting until reviews, people would rather read the reviews and the reactions first and foremost before deciding if it's for them.

The free demo won't cover suit the first lot - and the demo won't reveal what a long term save is like, or a season, it's just an in-game 6 month demo which won't resolve any of their queries.

Personally I am not buying it because I hate the UI - playing FM12 and it's fine for me. I don't need teams updated or anything as I play so much lower league football and work my way to the top, by 2030 most of the original players are gone and it's a world of regens.

[Matthew Le God]

As it has been discussed in other threads I will keep it short.

Things like the AI squad building can not be judged by playing the demo.

Has there ever been a FM game where you have been happy with the AI squad building? SI look to improve this area every year and FM gets better at it year on year. Or do you think this area has regressed between any FM releases?

[hluraven]

To be fair, I don't believe any review waits to see if long term squad building has changed either! Maybe some responses in these threads, but the clear majority will be very quick, knee-jerk or claiming to have seen things because others said it (like every year).

[daylight]

Has there ever been a FM game where you have been happy with the AI squad building? SI look to improve this area every year and FM gets better at it year on year, what milestone exactly are you waiting for?

Dude I will buy the game if I am happy to buy the game, that is it, no need for you tell me if I am right or wrong, I will more than likely wait for this release and listen to what other players have to say.

This will be the first release I have missed since 97/98, not much has gotten me excited from the videos released so for once I may just sit this release out.

[Matthew Le God]

Well waiting for the patch means that they don't want to play a game that's buggy - so waiting for the patch makes sense to them when all bugs are fixed.

Waiting until reviews, people would rather read the reviews and the reactions first and foremost before deciding if it's for them.

The free demo won't cover suit the first lot - and the demo won't reveal what a long term save is like, or a season, it's just an in-game 6 month demo which won't resolve any of their queries.

Personally I am not buying it because I hate the UI - playing FM12 and it's fine for me. I don't need teams updated or anything as I play so much lower league football and work my way to the top, by 2030 most of the original players are gone and it's a world of regens.

Playing the free demo gives you a good indication about the game in terms of the amount of bugs. The majority of bugs can be seen in the timeframe of a demo.

Why do you "hate the UI"? Is that really a good main reason not to buy it? Especially when it is customisable. Why not give it a go in the free demo and decide then if you like how the UI works before dismissing it out of hand.

[Matthew Le God]

Dude I will buy the game if I am happy to buy the game, that is it, no need for you tell me if I am right or wrong, I will more than likely wait for this release and listen to what other players have to say.

This will be the first release I have missed since 97/98, not much has gotten me excited from the videos released so for once I may just sit this release out.

I'm lost as to the logic of waiting for 2nd hand information when it is possible to experience 1st hand for yourself what the game is like. You clearly like the series having played it since 1997, so why not spend an hour on the free demo and make your own decision rather than rely on someone else?

[Dedinho]

Waiting until reviews, people would rather read the reviews and the reactions first and foremost before deciding if it's for them. .

I don't care about the reviews, last year FM14 was getting an average 9/10, and that's way more than I would give it. I was never actually active on any FM forums, until FM14, mainly because I was so into FM games before FM14 that I actually played it instead of scrolling through the forums. And as I did, I saw that I'm not the only one having issues in FM14, because there was a ton of players posting about the same issues on a daily basis. So I will be waiting for those, I'll see what they say, and then decide.

[daylight]

I'm lost as to the logic of waiting for 2nd hand information when it is possible to experience 1st hand for yourself what the game is like. You clearly like the series having played it since 1997, so why not spend an hour on the free demo and make your own decision rather than rely on someone else?

As I said the demo will not show me certain parts of the game, parts that I find important, if I decide not to buy the game before release I can just wait to see all the feedback that is being given and then either buy the game or not.

You also asked Eugene if because he did not like the UI if it was a good enough reason not to buy the game, if it is a big enough thing for him then that is all that matters.

I am not going around telling people not to buy the game or indeed bad mouthing the game, I am simply undecided and I may just hold off, maybe even until after Christmas and get all the feedback that comes in.

[daylight]

Having said all that I also have a 20% off voucher from Gamersgate that is valid until the 14th November so I would like to use that, it could come down to which game out of FM and the new Civilization game releases in the best shape, not too many other games coming up for release have caught my eye.

[Aland545]

I voted - "Wait for the game to be patched before I buy".

That is the closest answer to my own position. In all honesty, I'm not sure I will buy this year, I might skip FM15.

During the beta-process and then through the patching/update process, I (among others, I know) have spent a lot of time, and energy, without much enjoyment, "playing" (word used loosely) the game, identifying bugs, reporting them, giving constructive feedback on the forums and so on.

When FM13 was released, I understood that the introduction of collision detection meant, in whatever way you want to phrase it, a re-work of the ME/new ME and was prepared to give SI some leeway on this. That said, the pre-Xmas update debacle that made the game worse and very unrealistic damaged my support of SI. In hindsight, I actually regret being so sympathetic to SI. I've been customer-loyal since CM2, buying pretty much every version, but you know, people who buy the game for the first time are entitled to something that works properly, rather than having to indulge SI in their testing processes.

FM14 I really hoped would be something that felt, finished. But, on release, it was clearly nowhere near - any view of the top players in the early versions of FM14 will demonstrate this.

Now, even after 3 patches/updates, there are flaws. Now let me make this clear - I completely understand its never going to be perfect. But, there are problems with the game even now that I think are unacceptable for a finished product that has undergone the amount of patching / updating it has.

Hence, I'll be very, very careful with my money before buying FM15 and if I do, it'll be post-updates, and at a time I can buy it at a discounted rate, on the proviso that the bugs and other things that make aspects of the game annoying, have been ironed out to a reasonable level. I might not buy it at all. SI have taken my goodwill and used it up in FM13 and FM14, its gone now. I suspect many have similar feelings. SI don't deserve my loyalty, my time, my money. They've took my custom for granted one time too many.

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments. For me the major issue is match kit selection, which has been around since CM days. It was perhaps excusable then, with the lack of memory etc on the early computers, but is not excusable now. I got really fed up seeing whichever team I was managing play in an away kit when at home, and more often than not against a team whose kit was not a clash. The one attempt (via a patch) that attempted rectification actually made it worse, so unless and until someone from SI tells me that this issue is rectified, I will not be bothering with any more FMs.

It's not about 'playability', it's about enjoyment, and I've lost mine through this bug.

[redhawk]

It is a fundamental part of a football simulation game the all matches are played with the teams playing in the correct strip.

And the diva of the year award goes to....

[Neil Dejyothin]

If you're unsure, then wait for the Gold Demo and give that a whirl. That's what it's there for and then you can make up your own mind and pass your own judgement whether it meets your expectations or not and whether you wish to spend your money on it now, later or not at all.

We're obviously grateful and thankful for your support, be it now or later, or from the past.

Making games and creating software in general is a difficult business and hard work, but if you want to know a little bit more about who we are, how we work and what our philosophy is as a studio, I did post some comments on this a while back in this thread here. Hopefully that will give you a little more insight and help you understand us and where we're coming from a little better.

[daylight]

A nice read Neil, a shame it is doomed to not be read by many as it is in a locked thread.

It is actually 1 of the reasons I always bought the game at release, not so much now but the SI guys used to post a lot on these boards and go out of their way to chat with the players, I always appreciated that.

I posted in another thread how I very much enjoyed posting bugs and uploading saves in the bugs forum as Tony and Ben were again very nice to deal with and always seemed to have time to respond to most threads.

Having read your post it does make me want to support the game and SI, I will think it over as I make the kids dinner tonight, hopefully the dinner does not get too burnt!

[Neil Dejyothin]

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments. For me the major issue is match kit selection, which has been around since CM days. It was perhaps excusable then, with the lack of memory etc on the early computers, but is not excusable now. I got really fed up seeing whichever team I was managing play in an away kit when at home, and more often than not against a team whose kit was not a clash. The one attempt (via a patch) that attempted rectification actually made it worse, so unless and until someone from SI tells me that this issue is rectified, I will not be bothering with any more FMs.

It's not about 'playability', it's about enjoyment, and I've lost mine through this bug.

That's because it's a lot more difficult than appears on the surface. It doesn't have anything to do with memory on computers.

As humans, we have eyes that can identify the differences in colour (well some people are colour blind, but you get my general point) and then we have to write algorithms that interpret the differences in colour and what would be considered as a "clash". There are many variances of the same colour, "red" would not just be "red" for example, there are many different forms of a single colour.

We have around 10,000 clubs in the database, ranging from between two or three different outfield kits. So to put that into perspective, that's a minimum of 20,000 kits, but usually more as a lot of clubs these days have third kits. Then we have goalkeeper kits and referees kits, which further compounds the complexity of the issue at hand, so there can be a lot of special cases.

The algorithms get tweaked and updated every year, but the reality is, so do the kits, so it's a constantly evolving process of new colours causing the potential for new types of kit clashes. On top of this, you have scenarios where some kit clashes are solved by subtle changes that are more minor, so some clubs may have a different set of coloured shorts or socks.

Then you may have the circumstances where some clubs have certain rules or criteria, maybe for commercial reasons, they would wear one kit over another away from home even if their home kit didn't cause a clash.

It's actually a very fascinating problem to try and solve from a programming perspective, but it is not easy, especially when there is a constant moving target in terms of the data always changing. To my knowledge, no other games have solved this either, but other games have offered a simple solution by allowing the end user to simply change and force the kit selection prior to the match kicking off (in action games) and there are far less clubs generally in those sorts of games than we are dealing with.

I don't disagree that it's annoying – we're with you on that – but if it was easier to solve, we'd have solved it totally by now. It's simply something that we always look at and refine every year.

[Smurf]

Why not let the user pick the away kit for the games - for example why not allow me to change my kit or the other teams kit to their 2nd or 3rd kit. As well as picking a non-clashing referee jersey?

Seems like a simple solution.

It could be one of those features you would want to turn on or off.

[Dacw]

Football Manager Live was one of the best games I've played and I'm still in contact with a lot of people who I used to play it with on Cantona!

Only real issue was that there were the top 20 people who had played the beta and always had an insurmountable edge come the first live gameworld, purely because they knew which of the free transfers were the best and could immediately snap them up once the GW came up. I remember I had a list of about 30 players I wanted before it even went live (Brandao anyone?) Other issues that could have been done with being sorted quicker were the fact people were creating tournaments and making a lot of money from them, whilst DC's and strikers with high jumping and heading had ridiculous scoring rates (Looking at you Nando)

[DJ Sir Matthew]

maintaining a flat, live-in girlfriend

somehow I read that differently the first time 'round that what you intended

[Smurf]

Playing the free demo gives you a good indication about the game in terms of the amount of bugs. The majority of bugs can be seen in the timeframe of a demo.

Why do you "hate the UI"? Is that really a good main reason not to buy it? Especially when it is customisable. Why not give it a go in the free demo and decide then if you like how the UI works before dismissing it out of hand.

The free demo doesn't really give an indication, a lot are fixed on full release day like many years before. The bugs and things I want to see cannot be seen in the demo, for instance, financial fair play, buying and selling players and contract renewals.

The UI is obtrusive with all the pages flying in and out - like something out of a 1990s Total Football Manager. The UI is also terrible in plenty of other ways, mainly on how the news items are handled. But I also detest other "features" like the Player Filter on the Tactics Screen automatically collapsing after each selection, which I was reliably told that they weren't changing it back - which frustrated me as I pick each player by selecting "GK" then select a GK from the selection list, then I select "Defender Right" and the pod closes again, prompting me to open it each and every time. It was ridiculous and a nonsense UI change and the attitude from FM on my request to have it stay open was not pleasant at all.

There are many issues I have with the UI, those are just a few.

The UI is customisible, but I hate having to change to a different UI just because SI can't get it right, besides, why should I have to change the UI - why isn't it developed well in the first place. And once again this is year we have another UI with a sidebar - how wonderful and creative that is - straight out of a web developers toolbox. Can't wait for the complaints on this start rolling in, taking up screen real estate on 13-15 inch screens (laptops), which are very popular at the moment.

Why not give the demo a go? Because I have done so in the past and got no indication of whether the game was good enough or not, prompting me to buy the game anyway.

I've bought every iteration of FM - as far back CM days - and I have enojoyed every single one up to FM 12. FM 13 was completely unplayable for me as it was too slow and lagged a lot inbetween games. I narrowed it down to it being Scout Reports (actually this was in FM12 too) by sacking all the Scouts the game ran much faster. What's the point of playing FM without any scouts? The game simply didn't run for me with all the scout reports that were being generated.

I gave FM 13 a miss and waited for FM14 (as mentioned with the player filter on the tactics screen auto collapsing which I hated, and SI's repsonse and attitude towards me in having it stay open was not pleasant at all. The UI sucked.

I'm not buying FM 15 at all - the last two versions were rubbish in my opinion and I am not wasting my money on another version of this game.

FM12 is fine - does everything I want in a FM game.

[Neil Dejyothin]

The free demo doesn't really give an indication, a lot are fixed on full release day like many years before. The bugs and things I want to see cannot be seen in the demo, for instance, financial fair play, buying and selling players and contract renewals.

The UI is obtrusive with all the pages flying in and out - like something out of a 1990s Total Football Manager. The UI is also terrible in plenty of other ways, mainly on how the news items are handled. But I also detest other "features" like the Player Filter on the Tactics Screen automatically collapsing after each selection, which I was reliably told that they weren't changing it back - which frustrated me as I pick each player by selecting "GK" then select a GK from the selection list, then I select "Defender Right" and the pod closes again, prompting me to open it each and every time. It was ridiculous and a nonsense UI change and the attitude from FM on my request to have it stay open was not pleasant at all.

There are many issues I have with the UI, those are just a few.

The UI is customisible, but I hate having to change to a different UI just because SI can't get it right, besides, why should I have to change the UI - why isn't it developed well in the first place. And once again this is year we have another UI with a sidebar - how wonderful and creative that is - straight out of a web developers toolbox. Can't wait for the complaints on this start rolling in, taking up screen real estate on 13-15 inch screens (laptops), which are very popular at the moment.

Why not give the demo a go? Because I have done so in the past and got no indication of whether the game was good enough or not, prompting me to buy the game anyway.

I've bought every iteration of FM - as far back CM days - and I have enojoyed every single one up to FM 12. FM 13 was completely unplayable for me as it was too slow and lagged a lot inbetween games. I narrowed it down to it being Scout Reports (actually this was in FM12 too) by sacking all the Scouts the game ran much faster. What's the point of playing FM without any scouts? The game simply didn't run for me with all the scout reports that were being generated.

I gave FM 13 a miss and waited for FM14 (as mentioned with the player filter on the tactics screen auto collapsing which I hated, and SI's repsonse and attitude towards me in having it stay open was not pleasant at all. The UI sucked.

I'm not buying FM 15 at all - the last two versions were rubbish in my opinion and I am not wasting my money on another version of this game.

FM12 is fine - does everything I want in a FM game.

The free Gold Demo does give an indication, it's not accurate to say otherwise, particularly in terms of the User Interface. There are obviously going to be particular personal items that for you, it doesn't give you enough of an indication, but that wouldn't be true for all.

We are all entitled to our views and respect everybody's opinion, but we're also entitled to develop the game in the way we want to and it's not possible to satisfy everybody. We all play the game differently and even within the studio we can have vastly different views and thoughts about features, functionality and usability. It's that kind of game.

But, it's harsh to criticise a UI that you have not experienced, I don't think that's necessarily fair game, but that's entirely up to you of course and we'll respect that if that's your stance. The side bar can be collapsed into smaller icons and from a personal point of view, I'm delighted it's back as I'm one of those who personally prefers having it there.

I'm not really clear what your position is with FM 2013 and FM 2014, and whether you skipped them or not either, as on one hand you say you've bought every iteration and on the other that you've skipped the past two. But you're judging the last two as rubbish...

[whilewolf2]

I'm going to wait. I have not enjoyed FM14 because a pretty big bug in FMC was not patched. On starting a game reserve teams would be created with no fixtures and once the season started all the create fixture by size or location options would become greyed out leaving you to trail through every team in the country only to be told they were too far away. With out reserve matches it's impossible to get players fit making an already hard game virtually impossible.

[Smurf]

The free Gold Demo does give an indication, it's not accurate to say otherwise, particularly in terms of the User Interface. There are obviously going to be particular personal items that for you, it doesn't give you enough of an indication, but that wouldn't be true for all.

We are all entitled to our views and respect everybody's opinion, but we're also entitled to develop the game in the way we want to and it's not possible to satisfy everybody. We all play the game differently and even within the studio we can have vastly different views and thoughts about features, functionality and usability. It's that kind of game.

But, it's harsh to criticise a UI that you have not experienced, I don't think that's necessarily fair game, but that's entirely up to you of course and we'll respect that if that's your stance. The side bar can be collapsed into smaller icons and from a personal point of view, I'm delighted it's back as I'm one of those who personally prefers having it there.

I'm not really clear what your position is with FM 2013 and FM 2014, and whether you skipped them or not either, as on one hand you say you've bought every iteration and on the other that you've skipped the past two. But you're judging the last two as rubbish...

Thanks for replying.

I played FM 13 for about 400 hours, and FM 14 for about 100 hours. Felt FM12 interface was fine, then FM13 was slow processing the game, and FM14 the Ui didn't suit how I played the game, hence I didn't spend time playing it. I've never skipped a version since the game came out. I've tried FM13 and FM14 - and if you don't like something you don't like it.

It's nothing personal towards SI - I just felt the UI was going backwards in terms of usability, where I felt it should have been going forward. However, it's a difference of opinion I just found both versions unsuitable for myself.

[berger15]

It's nothing personal towards SI - I just felt the UI was going backwards in terms of usability, where I felt it should have been going forward. However, it's a difference of opinion I just found both versions unsuitable for myself.

I had similar concerns when i got FM2013. But two years later and it just feels comfortable. There are still some things I struggle to find, which in previous versions always seemed to be located in convenient positions, but overall now, i would say I quite like it.

I do have concerns about the new "tablet" friendly look for this version though. Mainly because I use a mouse and keyboard, and play this on my pc, but also because my own personal view of the layout is it looks "wrong" :o.

Hopefully this is something than will either a) grow on me or b) be customisable in some way - although i fear i will just have to learn to love it

[mytreds]

I really liked FM12, and I still think it is the best iteration so far. Hated FM13, FM14 is ok. FM15 looks like a more polished version of FM14.

However-

It's hard to realize how much changes from season to season. Example: I stopped playing Fifa with Fifa08. This year, I took a chance and shelled out the bucks to buy Fifa15. Holy cow, so much has changed and I am loving Fifa again (keeping in mind Fifa is what drove me to FM). But if I had bought every Fifa from 08 to 15, I'd be one of those people complaining about how "Fifa sucks, just another version of Fifa14". Yet, I'm not because so much has changed and I really like the changes.

Bringing that same philosophy to FM: Like I said, I loved FM12. Played FM13 and hated it, uninstalled it, never played it again. So I was stuck with FM12 for 2 years before I bought FM14. The changes from just 2 years in FM are many. I liked some, not all, but enough to play some long careers with. In fact, I'm on a Pompey save in FMC for the first time, and I have to say SI- FMC, which I thought was a complete waste of time, is actually really, really fun. Kudos to you for that. My overall point is that when we take a hiatus from something that gets released year after year after year, the changes don't seem too big until we step back and look at where we've come 2, 4, 6 years ago. And usually, they are good changes.

So, OP, will I buy FM15? Maybe, probably only if it's on sale. The game is not 50$ to me right now, so I will bide my time and play some more FM14 til then.

P.S. For people who complain about FM on this forum- really guys. This is SI's forum. No one has sympathy here for people with complaints, legitimate or otherwise.

[Kriss]

P.S. For people who complain about FM on this forum- really guys. This is SI's forum. No one has sympathy here for people with complaints, legitimate or otherwise.

Totally untrue and unwarranted statement.

[Lawlore]

Why not let the user pick the away kit for the games - for example why not allow me to change my kit or the other teams kit to their 2nd or 3rd kit. As well as picking a non-clashing referee jersey?

Seems like a simple solution.

It shocks me that we're still not able to do that. Yes, it may be a little out of the manager's control, but it's a usability issue- if the game gets it wrong (and you've explained eloquently why it might, Neil), it causes a real problem. I'm not playing the Beta, but I've seen it reported already in the feedback thread.

Somewhere the game is making the choice as to which team wears which kit- that decision needs to be a human one. The players on the pitch may not know there's a clash, nor the other manager nor referee- but we do. And really, we're the one that matters.

[Neil Dejyothin]

It shocks me that we're still not able to do that. Yes, it may be a little out of the manager's control, but it's a usability issue- if the game gets it wrong (and you've explained eloquently why it might, Neil), it causes a real problem. I'm not playing the Beta, but I've seen it reported already in the feedback thread.

Somewhere the game is making the choice as to which team wears which kit- that decision needs to be a human one. The players on the pitch may not know there's a clash, nor the other manager nor referee- but we do. And really, we're the one that matters.

Yes personally I think it's a nice idea. Not everybody in the studio would agree that it's right for FM though.

But let's see what we can do in the future. It's one worth another round of discussion for sure.

[hluraven]

Yes personally I think it's a nice idea. Not everybody in the studio would agree that it's right for FM though.

But let's see what we can do in the future. It's one worth another round of discussion for sure.

Being able to set rules or selection by selection in the editor might work, it's not something I would want to be asked in-game, but would happily set up before a save.

[greco]

in all honesty, this is the game i´ve played the most and i mean by far! It´s a big part of spare time, when i reallly get into it and i will be buying this game. That is a certainty and i´ll probably never stop buying it.

With that said, i´ve bought a lot of editions in a row and as a result i know, that the game is often born with a lot of bugs. I also know, from first hand experience, that these bugs - usually - are rather insignicant around christmas time. Some editions have been more polished around this time thean others, but nonetheless the patch which usually comes out around the holidays, sorts it out.

i have though been swayed to buy it earlier or later, depending on how it is recieved. This might not make sense to others, but i+ve played the game with bugs and had to stop, so i´m not risking that again. Thta is a complete waste of my time. The bugs in the begginning vs bugs after the final patch, is often like playing two different games. Not only that, but i like to preserve fm´s virginity, which means i don´t like to fool around and sneak peak, i´d rater go all in and rip her apart in one long go. I wont settle , i like em ready to go

Around release time and through to chritsmas, i read a lot of feedback threads and posts, and it is actually qiute easy to see whne the tides are turning, in terms of bugs being reported or the debate in it self. It´s easy to spot, when the consensus to an extent has been reached and it´s only a few who keeps arguing. I definetly appreciate the fact, that i have alot of fellow games who are willing to spend their time telling about the games new features and those who creates awareness in regards to bugs. I don´t know anyone personally on this site, but i trust my fellow fm gamers, as a lot of those who posts have played the game throughout the years. They know their ****, so to speak. So to me it makes sense to use this site, it´s like having a personal army of testers.

[denizgunu]

I began to wait till about January to buy the game. The game is less buggy, cheaper and when you start the cycle, you wait the same amount for each game. That doesn't mean that I criticize SI for their policies. It just makes more sense to buy later.

[kilik]

so my post got deleted....

why cant we post without moderation approval?

[HUNT3R]

Your post came through fine now? If it was deleted earlier, it must have been deemed as not constructive, which is against forum house rules.

[cynet]

I will wait and see and did like FM14 after the game had reached it's 3rd patch!

This game will have issues but once they are fixed to a certain extent then I will buy

[ringwoodrob]

I began to wait till about January to buy the game. The game is less buggy, cheaper and when you start the cycle, you wait the same amount for each game. That doesn't mean that I criticize SI for their policies. It just makes more sense to buy later.

:)Same here never bother with demos,i might buy early if theres some big change in the game like the first one that came with the PGE!