Ajax - When Real Life Meets Football Manager - FM14

[lewis999]

Is it strange that none of his hidden attributes are changing? I thought they change more than that but must not do.

[Cleon]

Is it strange that none of his hidden attributes are changing? I thought they change more than that but must not do.

Nah not strange at all because he's not being tutored. And a few of the hidden ones never change.

[Cleon]

I think I'll probs stop updating this now, it doesn't seem to be worth it

[bdixon]

I think I'll probs stop updating this now, it doesn't seem to be worth it

don't you dare, after reading this on holiday last week it's inspired me to start a game with Ajax, I consider this to be a starting point bible.

[Jean0987654321]

Nah, man. Keep it going. I wish I could do such similar thread based on my Malaga save.

[TommiiGuns]

Hi newbie here. Ive played FM for years and always tried to develop my youth team but until i read this thread i always went for determination only. I usually go my local team which is Livingston in the Scottish Championship so my finances are terrible so i have a lot of work to do before i can achieve much.

I have read your thread and that of MH breakdowns.

My main questions about developing youth is...

Say i have a player with a balanced personality and i want to make him have high professionalism, high ambition and high determination.

Do i just find a tutor who has all these to begin with or do i first find a tutor with high ambition, then a tutor with high professionalism then lastly tutor him with someone with high determination?

Or do i find a tutor with an ambitious personality with a media handling style that has high professionalism?

Or do i find an ambitious tutee and get a professional with high determination to tutor him? or do i get a professional tutee and tutor him with a determined tutor?

Also if i have tutored someone with a tutor with high ambition, then use a different tutor with high professionalism and low ambition.

Will the player being tutored have his ambition lowered because of this or will he come out of it with high ambition and professionalism?

Is there a set order to train the stats in i.e. ambition first, then professionalism then determination?

I guess what im trying to say is will tutoring have a negative effect on a previously boosted hidden stat. Is determination the only stat that is lowered because of tutoring?

i.e. tutor 1 passes on high ambition, tutor 2 passes on high professionalism, tutor 3 passes on high determination, result is a young player with higher stats in all 3 areas.

One more thing and it may have been covered so i apologise. Whats the top Personalities a tutor should have?(i understand that model citizen is desirable, i guess i mean the personalities like fairy determined, fairly professional etc, or are the pure ones more desirable like professional and determined) and whats the top media handling styles?

Sorry my English isnt that great and sorry in advance if you have explained this before or if ive repeated myself. I hope ive made sense lol.

Great thread and thanks for your time!

[lilljons]

I understand that balanced is very good paired with individual focus. But if i was to try implement a "club ethos". For example, my players should be good with the ball(Ball control) and have good physique(Fitness). You have previously shotted me down with my rotational general training, but how would you go on about this Cleon? Is a 6 month rotation on low the best way to go? I'd really appreciate your input, don't want this save to get spoiled due to failed logics.

Cheers!

[Colorado]

This is a fantastic thread and this is not a criticism of any sort to what Cleon is doing and showing us, but doesn't tutoring just carry to much weight in the game?

[lilljons]

Following and reading about events at my own club, Hearts, this past 7 days made me think of this thread, the Ajax approach and linked subjects.

Hearts Background

For those who perhaps dont know much about the Hearts situation, the club just exited administration, after nearly 18 months. Previously bankrolled by the excentric (im being polite...) Lithuanian banker Vladimir Romanov, they accumulated huge debts by spending beyond their means to bring modest success (a couple of cup wins and regular European football). With the debts being to the banks owned by Romanov, which were both also placed in administration, Hearts were able to escape the liquidation fate of Rangers and instead escape with a 15pts penalty, and a season with a signing ban meaning it was a team of kids. Relegation inevitably followed.

As they come out of administration, the clubs new owner, a shrew businesswomen and Hearts Supporter recognised that whilst she is an excellent business expert, she is not a football expert and should not try to be one. She has appointed Craig Levein as Director of Football, with complete control over all football aspects of the club. Outside of Scotland, Levein is probably best known for a reasonably average spell at Leicester 10 years ago, then a somewhat ill-fated spell as Scotland Manager more recently.

Craig Levein at Dundee Utd and his approach

What is probably less well recognised outside of Scotland, is the job Levein did in his last club job. At Dundee Utd. On the pitch he brough success, but it was off the pitch where his biggest impact was made. Levein was actually appointed as Director of Football as well as first team Manager at Utd (and was also given a place on the clubs board) and his main legacy was the step change he made to the clubs approach to youth development and coaching. This is where the comparisons to Ajax/this thread start to come in.

Levein's major observation, over 2 years as manager, was that when youth team players were promoted to the first team squad they had a shocking lack of basic ball skills. They made be athletically ready, but they didnt have the basics of first touch, technique, composure. Levein's view was that by the time a youth team player hits the first team, those should all be developed to the extent where only background level of training is needed on them. As a player reaches the first team, his development should then switch to the tactical aspects of the game, reading of the game, organisation, set pieces, leadership.

Levein/Cathro Youth Development

The solution was to start coaching youngsters in these basics as soon as they enter the club - the 9 - 14 age groups were identified as key and a little known young Scottish Coach was brought in to manage all aspects of this age group. Ian Cathro was only 22 when appointed to the role, but he was clearly from a very different background to the traditional Scottish Coach. There is a very interesting article about Cathro here.

During his time at Dundee Utd, Cathro was responsible for bringing through most of the current exciting batch of youngsters who are now first team regulars, including probaly Scottish Footballs best young young prospects in Ryan Gauld and John Souttar. More recently, he probably confirmed he is not your average Scottish Coach, by accepting a role as Assistant Manager at Portugese side Rio Ave. He is now set to John Hearts under Levein and take up a position as Head of Youth Development, again with his primary focus being on the younger age groups.

The New Hearts

So that brings us on to the "New Hears" and what Craig Levein is trying to build. Reading his interviews, and looking at what he did at Utd (and the impending arrival of Cathro), his aims for the club are:

1) Develop a universal approach to football from top to bottom - At every level the coaching staff will follow the same footballing philosophies/approach to the game. The recruitment team must also follow the same approach, so that any signings integrate to the club style and philosophies.

2) Create a conveyor belt of talent for backroom staff - The next hearts manager after Robbie Neilson must come from within, and the next after that. This is a crucial part of the overall approach and as Levein mentioned, not seen in British Football since Liverpool in the 70's and 80s.

3) Further enhance an already impressive youth system - focusing heavily on technical training for the younger age groups and have the youth development benefit from the universal approach to football throughout the club

One of the more detailed interviews Levein gave is here

Creating this in Football Manager

The reason i posted this in this thread, is because i believe there are a number of similarities in what Hearts want to create and what Ajax have. I would try to use some of the principles Cleon and others have posted to make it happen in FM. There are, of course, limitations, such as the obvious one of minimal influence over the coaching of u16's.

Firstly, i have edited the default 14.3 DB. I have relegated Hearts, promoted Rangers into the Championship (to better reflect the difficulty of the first season) and i have brought Hearts out of Administration, removed the transfer embargo and created Ann Budge as a fairly run of the mill chairwomen. I have added Craig Levein as DOF, Ian Cathro as HOYD and Robbie Neilson has been appointed U20's coach (since i am taking his real job!). I have also edited the "preferred formation" of all 3 of those staff members to be 451.

Developing a universal approach top to bottom - Football Manager - This is something lots of people have posted about on these forums, and at the basic level it is not too hard to accomplish. The initial actions to do this are:

a) Ensure that all 3 teams (Senior, Reserve, U20) play the same tactics. By tactics i specifically mean mentality/approach (eg team and player settings). Formation is less important, but we will play the same formation across our 3 teams anyway

b) Implement a form of the "squad management" mentioned in the OP - The ajax was splitting into right and left footed players and having a set number of players covering 2 positions each (the OP details this properly). I havent fully settled on my approach for this yet, but it needs to be strictly followed at all levels to ensure the squad depth is balanced and players at all positions have the chance to move up the ladder.

c) Recruitment - Whilst we are youth foccused, it doesnt mean we will never sign players. Of course we will. Each signing must fit into our style of play and approach. We are going to be possesion based, so signings will fit into a specific profile.

d) Coaches preferred syles - This is going to be hard to implement in FM, but ideally all of our coaching staff would have the same "Preferred playing style", "Preferred Mentality" and "Preferred Marking Style". I am less fussed about formations again. I couldnt find anyway to edit these in the ingame or pre-game editor for my existing staff which is a shame, and i am not sure they are dynamic in game for anything other than human managers? I will try to sign only staff members who match my clubs preferred Style and Mentality, or are one notch away from it (eg – Adveturous vs Attacking is not a big jump so I would accept this. Cautious v Attacking is and wont work)

2) Create a conveyor belt of talent for backroom staff – This is also going to be a little bit hard to implement, since I intend to be the manager throughout! However I will attempt to always promote from within to fulfil more senior positions as staff leave (e.g. look to move up U19 Manager to Reserve, and Reserve to Ass Man etc). I will also attempt to sign young staff with potential, although there appears to be no way to assess this in game? Also staff CA development is something I have never seen explored or explained in FM?

3) Further enhance an already impressive youth system – This is the one I think I can have the biggest impact in creating in-game. Some of the keys to this are:

a) Look to improve Junior Coaching, YRN and Youth facilities whenever possible – Self explanatory, but we are going to be focused on youth development and these are the building blocks

b) Implement something akin to the Ajax approach of introducing 3 youth products to the first team squad each season. I will also look for a rough 80/20 split between youth and experience in the first team squad.

c) Focus player recruitment on players 18 and under. Whilst my main focus is our own youth, its clear that Scotland doesn’t have a huge talent pool. Although by increasing YRN and having good scouting knowledge we might get some youngsters from abroad, I will supplement this by targeted u18 signings. Of course, the key will be that each must fit our desired player profile

d) Training and development – The most important factor by miles. Several subfactors to this:

d.1) Attribute training – I want to focus initially on the basics for young players, ala Levein/Cathro at Dundee Utd. So for each youth player/signing, the first 12 months training will be rotation of:

First Touch

Technique

Composure

Passsing

(these are my personal choice/judgement of “the basics”)

d.2) PPMS – Players will be taught PPM from year 2 onwards, and will be taught only those which fit into a framework, by position, which matches our footballing approach (matrix yet to be created)

d.3) Tutoring – I will use this where possible, but financial constraints mean I cant carry too many experienced players, so wont be able to tutor everyone. It can be applied anytime in a players development for me.

d.4) Positional re-training – In addition to the odd case where I identify that a player would be better in a new position, for a club the size of hearts its going to be important to have players who can handle multiple positions. I will aim for a ratio that 80% of my squad can cover more than one position in our system at least “adequately”.

And so far, that’s what I have. A combination of a desire to see the “New Hearts” vision become reality, my own ideas, and a lot of borrowing from Cleon/Ajax. Clearly there are a lot of other things I have yet to settle on, such as how to approach training for the first team, but I am more inclined to think that should be “bespoke” and based on the players development needs and the teams needs.

Now that’s one long ramble isn’t it……..

I would love to read about this and your progress in a separate thread. Awesome post!

[Lyssien]

Hi newbie here. Ive played FM for years and always tried to develop my youth team but until i read this thread i always went for determination only. I usually go my local team which is Livingston in the Scottish Championship so my finances are terrible so i have a lot of work to do before i can achieve much.

I have read your thread and that of MH breakdowns.

My main questions about developing youth is...

Say i have a player with a balanced personality and i want to make him have high professionalism, high ambition and high determination.

Do i just find a tutor who has all these to begin with or do i first find a tutor with high ambition, then a tutor with high professionalism then lastly tutor him with someone with high determination?

Or do i find a tutor with an ambitious personality with a media handling style that has high professionalism?

Or do i find an ambitious tutee and get a professional with high determination to tutor him? or do i get a professional tutee and tutor him with a determined tutor?

Also if i have tutored someone with a tutor with high ambition, then use a different tutor with high professionalism and low ambition.

Will the player being tutored have his ambition lowered because of this or will he come out of it with high ambition and professionalism?

Is there a set order to train the stats in i.e. ambition first, then professionalism then determination?

I guess what im trying to say is will tutoring have a negative effect on a previously boosted hidden stat. Is determination the only stat that is lowered because of tutoring?

i.e. tutor 1 passes on high ambition, tutor 2 passes on high professionalism, tutor 3 passes on high determination, result is a young player with higher stats in all 3 areas.

One more thing and it may have been covered so i apologise. Whats the top Personalities a tutor should have?(i understand that model citizen is desirable, i guess i mean the personalities like fairy determined, fairly professional etc, or are the pure ones more desirable like professional and determined) and whats the top media handling styles?

Sorry my English isnt that great and sorry in advance if you have explained this before or if ive repeated myself. I hope ive made sense lol.

Great thread and thanks for your time!

As Cleon has not been around for a couple of days, I 'll answer a couple of questions here. I hope Cleon won't mind.

Tommii,

In tutoring, the attributes of the youngster (the ones that are affected by tutoring) will tend to change towards the attributes of the tutor. So if a tutor has lower Ambition than the youngster, the youngster's Ambition will tend to lower. I say "tend to" because tutoring is not always successful.

Therefore, the ideal scenario is the following: You find a tutor who is better at all hidden attributes than the youngster. In order to reach conclusion for the hidden attributes, you take into account *both* Personality Description and Media Handling Style and reach aggregate conclusions on all possible hidden attributes.

Sometimes the above scenario is not possible, because you don't have a good enough tutor available or you don't have information on some of the hidden attributes that interest you. There are 3 ways to handle this:

a) You go sign or loan a player who fulfils all your requirements to do the tutoring. Keep in mind that he has to be 23yo or older, have better reputation than the youngster (check that in their information screen, equal reputation -as a description- may sometimes work too) and when you sign him give him a better squad status than the youngster. There is a chance that one of them won't want to work with the other, so understand you are taking a risk.

b) If you don't have information on all the hidden attributes you are interested in, you may decide to focus on the ones you have information on and do the tutoring anyway. I guess you 'll just hope for the best regarding the ones you don't know. It is a risk, yes, so make sure the improvement in the attributes you know will worth it (e.g. professionalism).

c) Sometimes when I don't have an ideal tutor, I may decide to sacrifice a personality attribute in order to improve one that I consider more important. For example, I may have a veteran with better Professionalism and Ambition but lower Determination than the youngster. I may do the tutoring anyway (if I don't have a better option), sacrificing some of the youngster's Determination in order to improve his Professionalism & Ambition which I value more.

Doing tutorings in succession the way you described it will not work. If the first mentor has good Professionalism and the second tutor has good Ambition but low Professionalism, then the second tutoring will lower the youngster's Professionalism. So the first tutoring will go to waste.

Sometimes you can use a mediocre personality as a first tutor: A couple of seasons ago I had an Unambitious youngster with low Determination, Professionalism and Temper. There was no reason to get him a star Tutor as a first tutor. I started with a Balanced & Media Friendly tutor, who behaved and progressed well in training for all the years I had him (so his Professionalism & Ambition could not be that bad). Then, once I got my youngster to be Balanced, I moved him on to a Resolute tutor. My youngster became Resolute within 2 years.

Cleon has pre-answered your question about good tutoring personalities in the original post. But it all depends on the youngster's starting personality as well (see the example of my Unambitious youngster above).

[Lyssien]

This is a fantastic thread and this is not a criticism of any sort to what Cleon is doing and showing us, but doesn't tutoring just carry to much weight in the game?

Well, you cannot expect Unambitious & Unprofessional youngsters to develop IRL either, can you? I think they 've gotten this part right. The problem with FM is that -with the exception of tutoring- personalities are more or less static. That is what makes tutoring so important. I guess it would be great if SI made personalities dynamic in the future. E.g., they can set the hidden attributes (and determination) to change randomly (+-1, seperately for each personality attribute) every year with some small probability. As a matter of fact, I like this idea so much that I am going to post it in the wishlist thread right now.

[Cleon]

As Cleon has not been around for a couple of days, I 'll answer a couple of questions here. I hope Cleon won't mind.

Tommii,

In tutoring, the attributes of the youngster (the ones that are affected by tutoring) will tend to change towards the attributes of the tutor. So if a tutor has lower Ambition than the youngster, the youngster's Ambition will tend to lower. I say "tend to" because tutoring is not always successful.

Therefore, the ideal scenario is the following: You find a tutor who is better at all hidden attributes than the youngster. In order to reach conclusion for the hidden attributes, you take into account *both* Personality Description and Media Handling Style and reach aggregate conclusions on all possible hidden attributes.

Sometimes the above scenario is not possible, because you don't have a good enough tutor available or you don't have information on some of the hidden attributes that interest you. There are 3 ways to handle this:

a) You go sign or loan a player who fulfils all your requirements to do the tutoring. Keep in mind that he has to be 23yo or older, have better reputation than the youngster (check that in their information screen, equal reputation -as a description- may sometimes work too) and when you sign him give him a better squad status than the youngster. There is a chance that one of them won't want to work with the other, so understand you are taking a risk.

b) If you don't have information on all the hidden attributes you are interested in, you may decide to focus on the ones you have information on and do the tutoring anyway. I guess you 'll just hope for the best regarding the ones you don't know. It is a risk, yes, so make sure the improvement in the attributes you know will worth it (e.g. professionalism).

c) Sometimes when I don't have an ideal tutor, I may decide to sacrifice a personality attribute in order to improve one that I consider more important. For example, I may have a veteran with better Professionalism and Ambition but lower Determination than the youngster. I may do the tutoring anyway (if I don't have a better option), sacrificing some of the youngster's Determination in order to improve his Professionalism & Ambition which I value more.

Doing tutorings in succession the way you described it will not work. If the first mentor has good Professionalism and the second tutor has good Ambition but low Professionalism, then the second tutoring will lower the youngster's Professionalism. So the first tutoring will go to waste.

Sometimes you can use a mediocre personality as a first tutor: A couple of seasons ago I had an Unambitious youngster with low Determination, Professionalism and Temper. There was no reason to get him a star Tutor as a first tutor. I started with a Balanced & Media Friendly tutor, who behaved and progressed well in training for all the years I had him (so his Professionalism & Ambition could not be that bad). Then, once I got my youngster to be Balanced, I moved him on to a Resolute tutor. My youngster became Resolute within 2 years.

Cleon has pre-answered your question about good tutoring personalities in the original post. But it all depends on the youngster's starting personality as well (see the example of my Unambitious youngster above).

Cheers for that

[Cleon]

Well, you cannot expect Unambitious & Unprofessional youngsters to develop IRL either, can you? I think they 've gotten this part right. The problem with FM is that -with the exception of tutoring- personalities are more or less static. That is what makes tutoring so important. I guess it would be great if SI made personalities dynamic in the future. E.g., they can set the hidden attributes (and determination) to change randomly (+-1, seperately for each personality attribute) every year with some small probability. As a matter of fact, I like this idea so much that I am going to post it in the wishlist thread right now.

This is already in the game but it doesn't work yearly. It's more random and tends to only happen to newgens but they can see their personality get better or worse due to off field events and we can't control this. I like this feature a lot but it should be a lot more prominent imo.

I think personality in general is underused on FM and it should have a bigger impact on things like playing styles and be more linked to the tactic/training side of the game.

[tyro]

Thank you for putting so much effort into this. I am only getting around to reading this now, as I am slowly getting to grips with the rest of FM this year and am ready for a longer term save (hopefully). Reading through all this makes me realize that FMC is really nice and fun but you cannot replicate the same depth of development.

[TommiiGuns]

Thanks for the reply and advice guys:)

I just hired a Head of Youth(With a professional personality and unflapple MH) a month before the regen date and i actually got a full team of professionals and fairly professionals come though although they didnt have much potential which is probably due to the club I am at!. I did how ever get one Model Professional with great potential so i decided to get someone with Fairly ambitions to tutor him. After his tutoring he had lowered to professional so im wondering if i shouldve just left him untutored?

[Lyssien]

Thanks for the reply and advice guys:)

I just hired a Head of Youth(With a professional personality and unflapple MH) a month before the regen date and i actually got a full team of professionals and fairly professionals come though although they didnt have much potential which is probably due to the club I am at!. I did how ever get one Model Professional with great potential so i decided to get someone with Fairly ambitions to tutor him. After his tutoring he had lowered to professional so im wondering if i shouldve just left him untutored?

Right, I personally wouldn't have done the tutoring.

Model Professional: Professionalism 20, Ambition unclear

Fairly Ambitious: Professionalism 1-14, Ambition 15-20

You tutored your youngster with someone with lower professionalism, so his professionalism was reduced to 18-19. Be glad it did not reduce further.

[Lyssien]

This is already in the game but it doesn't work yearly. It's more random and tends to only happen to newgens but they can see their personality get better or worse due to off field events and we can't control this. I like this feature a lot but it should be a lot more prominent imo.

I think personality in general is underused on FM and it should have a bigger impact on things like playing styles and be more linked to the tactic/training side of the game.

Agreed! One thing I was thinking is that in this game I love professional players, while IRL I find my nothing-more-than-professional peers to be completely boring in the way they are approaching their job

[Stomalomalus]

I have two players who are Ambitious and Fairly Ambitious. I thought it would be a better idea to have them tutored by my model pro rather than the resolute players, and use the latter to tutor the balanced/etc. guys.

Interestingly, I've had Damian Martinez, the Arsenal reserve goalie tutored by Fabianski. I very much doubt I would have done this had Martinez been model pro., as Fabianski is Resolute. However, Martinez is now Model Pro... which is great, I guess

Also, Zelalem has already become Resolute, after just a month with Rosicky. Tutoring is going well, then

Now just got to get the save going well...

[delra]

I had "Team Resolute" very quickly, myself. It's a little too easy right now, this whole mind-altering. And really, pretty much the entire DB of players after a few seasons is consisting of people with positive personality types. They didn't manage to train the douche out of Ibrahimovic in real life, in the game every douche can be model pro in a few months of tutoring. A little weakness of the game, but let's use it till they plug it. :-)

[Jambo98]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375189-Scouting-Regions-Bug?p=9549663&viewfull=1#post9549663 SI about youth intake and scouting knowledge

Thanks for that, interesting info, and for me im afraid i totally nonsensical feature of the game.

So really, if i have a club who has spent a year building up 100% scouting knowledge of lets say scandanavia. As part of getting to 100%, we will become familiar with the youths of the region including junior clubs etc.

I have a feeder club in ireland. The entire point of feeder clubs (one of them at least) is that we get first refusal o there talents, and they may send some young talents over to us. These talents though, will all be those who are part of the club (i am talking in real life here, not FM). They may be 15 or 16, but they will be players already affiliated with the full club, not its younger age groups affiliates.

And really, staff nationality? So when my spanish scout says his brother runs a restraunt in madrid, and the fish suppliers son can play a bit...........so we are going to add him to our youth squads?? I mean dont get me wrong, those kind of things can happen but it should be very rare in comparison to the benefit of having a worldwide, in-depth scouting system in place.....

Anyway, rant over, we have to work with the limitation of the game. I have not moved my game on too far yet with hearts, but already seeing some great benefits. In season 2, by November i have had 4 of my players make Scotland Debuts (all under 22). I have several more under 23 in the scotland squad, and a number in the U21 and U19. Infact at the last squad selection, Hearts have 14 players across the 3 international squads. A mix of home grown (McGhee, Holt, Craig Gordon, Walker, McHattie, McKay) and signed (Gauld, Stuart Armstrong, Lewis Milne, Ross Barbour).

I continue to focus on moulding players to the basics (passing, first touch, technique & composure) first then building up other areas. I dont have enough over 23s to do much tutoring but i have money in the bank so might bring in some experience to allow this. My youth set up is in good nick so set to bring through a generation of Scotland stars, mixed in with young players scouted and signed from abroad. (Northern Ireland continues to be a hot bed of talent for some reason!)

[LEEMOD]

Hi Jambo

I love this idea of a spreadsheet, I wonder if you could send me the spreadsheet so I can adapt it to my own save?

I would love to see how you develop Hearts, a great idea

Thanks

Thanks Cleon, already made my first change to my approach. Whilst looking at my initial squad, clearly i dont have a fresh "intake" in season one, so i picked the players U18 and split them into Tier 1 and Tier 2 prospects, based in the main on Ass Man feedback, and looking at an 11/11 split (although i am quite a bit short initially as the starting squad is small).

I decided to spreadsheet them all, of course . I created a matrix of the 4 key attributes i mentioned for each, with a view to tracking how those progress month on month. In doing this, it highlighed that i had some players who had, for example, 14 for technique already at age 17. However they maybe have 7 passing. So the uniform approach of giving them a monthly rotation across the 4 attributes isnt best suited to that case. I dont need his technique to develop further at that age (it hopefully will naturally, but not via specific training).

So instead i have settled on an approach where i will set a threshold of 12 for each of these 4 attributes, and a player must have 3 of the 4 at 12 before he can move up a tier. This means i will target those which need most development. For some, it will just be a rotation across the 4 for training, for others it might be 3 months intensive on one area.

I will alter the "threshold" level as i move up, but given that i am in the second level of scottish Football, for now 12 is a good level.

Im sure i will have other learnings along the way!

[LEEMOD]

Hi Jambo

Sorry one more thing, do you stick to these four attributes for players in all positions so this would be the same training for a centre back as well as a striker for example?

It's a great idea and something I want to try.

Thanks

[Cleon]

Hi Jambo

Sorry one more thing, do you stick to these four attributes for players in all positions so this would be the same training for a centre back as well as a striker for example?

It's a great idea and something I want to try.

Thanks

It's risk and could mean you miss out on quality players as every player develops at a different rate. Just because it might be low now doesn't mean it'll always be low. So it can be a risky way to play. Also the higher the attribute and lower the age, you'll tend to find that most cases will see the players development suffer and stall at around 19 years old unless he has loads of potential.

[LEEMOD]

How would you view this Tier 1/Tier 2 approach Cleon?

Would you focus on 4 basic attributes or look at low attributes for each person specifically and focus on them so a tailored approach?

I have read so many things for example focusing on physicals until 18, Mentals until 20-21 and then technicals upto 24.

It's an area of the game I find so interesting and enjoyable.

Thanks

[Cleon]

How would you view this Tier 1/Tier 2 approach Cleon?

Would you focus on 4 basic attributes or look at low attributes for each person specifically and focus on them so a tailored approach?

I have read so many things for example focusing on physicals until 18, Mentals until 20-21 and then technicals upto 24.

It's an area of the game I find so interesting and enjoyable.

Thanks

This thread is about how I approach training and what works best, I have answered this in the thread and shown the improvements etc. I have no tiers, everyone gets game time either by cup appearances, sub appearances or starts when my main players are injured.

[LEEMOD]

Thanks Cleon, I have read the thread, it is excellent.

Would you say there is any merit to approaching training like I suggested 'focusing on physicals until 18, Mentals until 20-21 and then technicals upto 24'

Or like you do in the thread to focus on lower attributes when they're young and then flesh them out with general role training?

Thanks

[Cleon]

Thanks Cleon, I have read the thread, it is excellent.

Would you say there is any merit to approaching training like I suggested 'focusing on physicals until 18, Mentals until 20-21 and then technicals upto 24'

Or like you do in the thread to focus on lower attributes when they're young and then flesh them out with general role training?

Thanks

No point at all imo. For best training results either focus individual roles or focus individual attributes. It's the best way and most efficient way of training on FM.

[LEEMOD]

Thank you, will you be updating the development of players as you have been doing?

It's great to see

[Cleon]

Thank you, will you be updating the development of players as you have been doing?

It's great to see

I was going too but wasn't much interest so I've stopped now and will just keep it at 6 seasons worth of development

[LEEMOD]

If you were to create a spreadsheet for monitoring player development how would you lay it out?

It's something I want to do but I can't see the layout in my head, I would greatly appreciate any advice

[Cleon]

I wouldn't. I'd take screenshots or make notes in the game or save the game and keep a separate copy at the end of every season so you can check back. There is also the attribute graph in a players profile that shows every single change an attribute as seen, so it seems a bit pointless imo.

[jorgvandervloed]

Cleon,

I have been following this thread for a while now, great job on the development! I'm from the Netherlands, not a big Ajax fan to be honest:roll eyes:, but still I like the approach. Its something almost every club is starting to do, look a Feyenoord and PSV, we are such a little country and have no money to buy any quality players.

I have two questions:

- What skin are you using in FM? I love the information it gives you.

- I couldn't help to notice that Fischer scored a ton of goals as an Inside Forward. I opened a thread on here a couple days ago but didn't get a whole lot of help from people and then I saw that you're using a similar system, so here goes my question. Do you feel like the winger on the right gets more into scoring position than the inside winger? I have been trying to get my inside forward to be my topscorer but he's hardly involved at all with goals or assists. Fischer of course is a quality player, one of the better inside forwards in the game probably, so it might have something to do with that.

Once again, awesome thread:applause:, and thanks in advance for your reply

[phnompenhandy]

^ I use 2 inside forwards on attack with PIs to stay narrow, and CWBs behind them (PIs to stay wide) and a false 9 up front. The IFs get plenty of goals and assists.

[Jean0987654321]

OP, I wish you would keep it going. I would like to see how the regens develop. They might be world beaters without us knowing, man

[Jambo98]

Hi Jambo

Sorry one more thing, do you stick to these four attributes for players in all positions so this would be the same training for a centre back as well as a striker for example?

It's a great idea and something I want to try.

Thanks

Well, this is an interesting development question for me, and its a good example of FM v real life. The philosophy i was trying to follow, that of Levien/Cathro would suggest that the basic premise is that that players need to be trained in the basics before anthing else. If you cant pass a ball, or control it, then i dont care if you can dribble like messi or have the pace of Didi Agathe, your not going to be a good enough player in the long term (for an example, see Didi Agathe.....pace of a jamaican sprinter, couldnt cross his legs).

The limitation of FM, is that you cant influence the "type" of regen to the best of my knowledge. I would love to be able to set up that i wanted my "youth" (as in the invisible U16 and below level) to be focussed on technical skills, of physical, etc. IMO, the preferences of the HOYD should influcence this far more. By having a passing, technical minded HOYD i should see more players come through with developed technical skills but lower physicals. Thats not how it works though, the general levels are set by the editor/database.

As for being rigid about it, like anything, being totally rigid doesnt work. If i find a wonderkid CB who is strong, quick, reads the game, positions well, can tackle and jump, but has technique and first touch at 6, i might take a chance. He might have composure that is 12+, which is important for a CB in my style, and he might have passing at 10 which is fine and can easily be trained up. But my default is to look for young players who can already do the basics and play/control the ball. The rest i can teach them as they go, or will develop with age.

As for the spreadsheet, couldnt be more simple really. Player names in the rows(i split it into the first 11, then the second 11, then the 3rd - try to stick to rigid 33 players like that). Then rows for the 4 attributes grouped into sets of 4 for each reporting period (i was using quarterly, moved to half yearly). Depending on how long your game is and how your excel skills are, use some basic VB to archive the historic stats, and can run a few graphs off it, although as Cleon has pointed out you can get the graphs in game anyway.

My results are good but not amazing. I am playing as Hearts, not Ajax or Anderlecht. I am also foccusing on results on the pitch as well as youth development, i dont play my youngsters every game and youth development is not my number 1 aim. Success is my aim, youth development is the primary tool i use to achieve it. Its not the only one, recruitment is vital (finding and signing talented youngsters from elsewhere). I have had reasonable youth intakes, with 2 5 star prospects in 2 years so i want to develop those.

Will try and dig out a few screenshots and post them for the one or two who are interested, and hope Cleon doesnt mind them being in this thread

[Jambo98]

Few player screenshots, nothing amazing on Cleon's level, but still some good progress:

Jordan McGee - Promising young Scottish DRC at the start of the game

At/near game start

2 years in

He is still only 18, but has been first choice all of season 2 so has developed all round, needs some targeted development now that he is quite a rounded player, to become excellent in one or 2 areas

Lewis Milne - signed from the blue brazil at the start of the game, promising MC

At start/when signed

2 years in

Jason Holt - Promising and reasonably high rep AMC at the start of the game

Dont have a screenshot at game start, but he is reasonably high Rep so most of his attributes shouldnt be random,so will be the same in other games

2 years in

Andy Seabrook - Youth intake from year one, was rated 5 stars in Championship but 4.5 stars in Prem

At the intake time

1.5 years in

Worth bearing in mind that all of the above is without tutoring, as i litterally have no tutors in my squad. The experience is all gone and i have no free cash to bring in experience!

[LEEMOD]

Well, this is an interesting development question for me, and its a good example of FM v real life. The philosophy i was trying to follow, that of Levien/Cathro would suggest that the basic premise is that that players need to be trained in the basics before anthing else. If you cant pass a ball, or control it, then i dont care if you can dribble like messi or have the pace of Didi Agathe, your not going to be a good enough player in the long term (for an example, see Didi Agathe.....pace of a jamaican sprinter, couldnt cross his legs).

The limitation of FM, is that you cant influence the "type" of regen to the best of my knowledge. I would love to be able to set up that i wanted my "youth" (as in the invisible U16 and below level) to be focussed on technical skills, of physical, etc. IMO, the preferences of the HOYD should influcence this far more. By having a passing, technical minded HOYD i should see more players come through with developed technical skills but lower physicals. Thats not how it works though, the general levels are set by the editor/database.

As for being rigid about it, like anything, being totally rigid doesnt work. If i find a wonderkid CB who is strong, quick, reads the game, positions well, can tackle and jump, but has technique and first touch at 6, i might take a chance. He might have composure that is 12+, which is important for a CB in my style, and he might have passing at 10 which is fine and can easily be trained up. But my default is to look for young players who can already do the basics and play/control the ball. The rest i can teach them as they go, or will develop with age.

As for the spreadsheet, couldnt be more simple really. Player names in the rows(i split it into the first 11, then the second 11, then the 3rd - try to stick to rigid 33 players like that). Then rows for the 4 attributes grouped into sets of 4 for each reporting period (i was using quarterly, moved to half yearly). Depending on how long your game is and how your excel skills are, use some basic VB to archive the historic stats, and can run a few graphs off it, although as Cleon has pointed out you can get the graphs in game anyway.

My results are good but not amazing. I am playing as Hearts, not Ajax or Anderlecht. I am also foccusing on results on the pitch as well as youth development, i dont play my youngsters every game and youth development is not my number 1 aim. Success is my aim, youth development is the primary tool i use to achieve it. Its not the only one, recruitment is vital (finding and signing talented youngsters from elsewhere). I have had reasonable youth intakes, with 2 5 star prospects in 2 years so i want to develop those.

Will try and dig out a few screenshots and post them for the one or two who are interested, and hope Cleon doesnt mind them being in this thread

Thanks mate :0

[mattcanary]

Maybe though it may be useful long-term in the case of Scotland to concentrate on ball skills.

Scotland is hardly blessed with players of that ilk at the moment. Maybe if you concentrate on that, new regens in the future will be more likely to have half-decent ball skills?

Just a thought - I may be totally wrong

[Deego619]

I would love to read about this and your progress in a separate thread. Awesome post!

+1 this is all great stuff! I've never heard of Cathro before and now I'm doing rigorous research.

[ashlfcowen]

Hi guys,

Bit of a dilemma here. I am approaching my 12th season with Liverpool and I have David Crowe* who has come a long, long way in four seasons*. He's making himself a bit of a nuisance because I already have three established midfield players who have very much been my 'core' for the last 3 seasons. I have;

Jordan Rossiter* - My DLP (D). Now Crowe could play here, but I feel he would be wasted.

Ryan Morrison* - My BBM (S), who like Crowe has come a long, long way*.

And finally, Dursun, my AP(A) who is irreplaceable.

Now the big question is; for the next 2-3 seasons, which position do I begin to mould Crowe in to? I feel as a DLP he is wasted. As a BBM possibly, but I have Morrison there who I feel for that position, is a little more advanced at the minute and well, Dursun will be playing first choice in that position for a little while longer. I can't ignore him though as he has the potential to be the very best on the game, I'm just not sure where I can fit him in at the minute and who I can replace instead.

What would you do?

[willowz1]

I'd look at making him a winger personally.

[Cleon]

You ideally should have had an idea of how and where you wanted to play him quite a bit before now. You need to look at your tactic and roles you currently use then decide where he best fits. If you find you can't fit him in then it'll sound harsh but get rid of him its pointless keeping players who you don't know how to use or where to fit in

Personally though if I used wingbacks or fullbacks it would be a no brainer for me.

[lewis999]

Got to agree with Cleon, Complete Wing Back for me.

[ashlfcowen]

The plan was for him to oust Rossiter, but that's not happened because he's solid in that DLP (D) position. CWB would be great really, albeit not such great dribbling but that could be improved I'm sure. Unfortunately, Crowe is slightly disadvantaged at LFC because I already have this chap whose brilliant in that position. I may have to bite the bullet and sell.

[Gee_Simpson]

The plan was for him to oust Rossiter, but that's not happened because he's solid in that DLP (D) position. CWB would be great really, albeit not such great dribbling but that could be improved I'm sure. Unfortunately, Crowe is slightly disadvantaged at LFC because I already have this chap whose brilliant in that position. I may have to bite the bullet and sell.

Crowe is 4 years younger though so he should improve unless he's already reached his PA? I tell you what, he could be a great rotational player as he can play multiple positions, I would keep him imo. Who knows, he may make that CWB position his own in a year or two.

[janeka]

Guys what do you do when you manage a club, that is training facilities are poor and doens't let you train Positioning, Marking, etc, on players? On those clubs I only put players training Individual Roles, but I would like to know your opinion. If this was already answered on the thread please tell, because I coulnd't find it.

[Lyssien]

Guys what do you do when you manage a club, that is training facilities are poor and doens't let you train Positioning, Marking, etc, on players? On those clubs I only put players training Individual Roles, but I would like to know your opinion. If this was already answered on the thread please tell, because I coulnd't find it.

Of course, train them on individual roles. Note the attributes you would like to improve and then pick a role that includes all or most of them. It does not have to be the role you will be using for the player, just as long as it is available and involves the desired attributes.

The downside of this is that a) the attributes improve slower when you train lots of them at the same time and b) you will also be working on attributes you may not be interested in (wasting both time and CA points on them). Still, you will do a decent job if you choose the role carefully.

Oh, and improve you facilities as soon as you can.

[Cleon]

I'd do the same as Lyssien

Lyssien will you be doing training related posts again for FM15 etc? I'd love to do something more in-depth with you if we had the time

[janeka]

So I am doing it "right". Thanks Lyssien and Cleon

[Lyssien]

Lyssien will you be doing training related posts again for FM15 etc? I'd love to do something more in-depth with you if we had the time

I 'd love it if we could do that, Cleon. At the moment I have no idea about my free time next year (Greek economy has been so weird since the crisis), but we can be in touch about it.