Ajax - When Real Life Meets Football Manager - FM14

[mikcheck]

This is fantastic.

Since your thread about player development for FM12, i start to take much more attention to that part of the game.

[darren1983]

Fantastic effort and thread once again mate.

[remembertofeedthecat]

First of all fella - great thread!

You mention something above that totally intrigued me - "Signing staff who have similar personality types is a very wise idea because there is a chance these will get passed on to any newgens you get at the club. So make sure you get a head of Youth Development with the kind of personality you'd like your newgen players to have because there is a chance that they spawn with the desired personality. This can save you a lot of tutoring time."

What leads you to believe that is the case? Have you tested it? I have an unhealthy obsession with trying to assemble the best possible back-room staff that I can (hence my thread about physios yesterday) so this has really piqued my curiosity.

[Dr. Hook]

Cleon,

Thanks for posting this after all. It is greatly appreciated. I find myself needing to pay more attention to this as I play exclusively small rubbish clubs that need to make the most of the youth schemes. I had a question for you regarding the attribute rotation times. Sometimes you do 2 month stints, sometimes 3 months. How do you decide? Is it based on progression and individual to the player or are your times more built around individual versus position atttribute focii?

[Cleon]

First of all fella - great thread!

You mention something above that totally intrigued me - "Signing staff who have similar personality types is a very wise idea because there is a chance these will get passed on to any newgens you get at the club. So make sure you get a head of Youth Development with the kind of personality you'd like your newgen players to have because there is a chance that they spawn with the desired personality. This can save you a lot of tutoring time."

What leads you to believe that is the case? Have you tested it? I have an unhealthy obsession with trying to assemble the best possible back-room staff that I can (hence my thread about physios yesterday) so this has really piqued my curiosity.

It was posted sometime ago in general sections of the forum and SI (more specifically Riz who is the training module guy) confirmed it was true.

[Cleon]

Cleon,

Thanks for posting this after all. It is greatly appreciated. I find myself needing to pay more attention to this as I play exclusively small rubbish clubs that need to make the most of the youth schemes. I had a question for you regarding the attribute rotation times. Sometimes you do 2 month stints, sometimes 3 months. How do you decide? Is it based on progression and individual to the player or are your times more built around individual versus position atttribute focii?

If I did 3 months on 4 different attributes that's a full calendar year and I feel it wouldn't be worth it. So the more attributes I focus on in one go the shorter the duration so I can spend time on each one inside a season. Does that make much sense to you?

[remembertofeedthecat]

It was posted sometime ago in general sections of the forum and SI (more specifically Riz who is the training module guy) confirmed it was true.

OK - cool! If my regens turn out like Bernhard Peters I'll be a happy camper

[Dr. Hook]

If I did 3 months on 4 different attributes that's a full calendar year and I feel it wouldn't be worth it. So the more attributes I focus on in one go the shorter the duration so I can spend time on each one inside a season. Does that make much sense to you?

Makes sense, thanks. I had originally broken mine into 3 month parts starting Aug. 15, which left time for pre-season fitness, and the summer holiday, and getting 3 cycles. I was just thinking about whether it would benefit better to use two months as the cycle.

[Deego619]

Hey Cleon, nice thread.

Just a quick question on the first team games you give your youngsters. Does it impact your results that you're playing (for now) quite mediocre youngsters in a lot of league games?

I've always been a bit scared about needlessly weakening my team, especially in the Premier League a couple of decades in (as I am) where there's a lot of super regens around. I know the Eredivisie isn't quite at that standard but I'd still be quite worried giving mediocre youngsters as much first team game time as you have. Do you ever loan players out?

[Cleon]

Makes sense, thanks. I had originally broken mine into 3 month parts starting Aug. 15, which left time for pre-season fitness, and the summer holiday, and getting 3 cycles. I was just thinking about whether it would benefit better to use two months as the cycle.

It will come down to preference really and wont make much difference in all honesty

Hey Cleon, nice thread.

Just a quick question on the first team games you give your youngsters. Does it impact your results that you're playing (for now) quite mediocre youngsters in a lot of league games?

I've always been a bit scared about needlessly weakening my team, especially in the Premier League a couple of decades in (as I am) where there's a lot of super regens around. I know the Eredivisie isn't quite at that standard but I'd still be quite worried giving mediocre youngsters as much first team game time as you have. Do you ever loan players out?

No I don't loan players out because I can't shape them via tutoring or learn them the PPM's I need them to have. So I keep them unless they are players I am developing for the league. I develop every player the best I can because I then like to sell them for future % rather than actual fees to the clubs in my league. This over time helps the league become even more competitive and makes it harder long term for me. So if its one of these kind of players then I'll loan him out.

And yeah playing these players does hamper my results at time but I don't play the game for results, I play it for purely player development purposes so I always give them games no matter what. Even when I play in the Premiership if you've ever followed any of my Sheff Utd stuff, I tend to play the same way and always play my youths

Playing them might hamper my results now but means long term I'll be better off as they'll develop quicker due to first team exposure.

[DavidPengilley]

Really awesome thread and concept. Loved the previous one and am glad I can keep us with this one, especially about tracking development. Tempts me to do a game in Belgium now

Notes section was interesting and I'd love to see more about how you track developmen, reminders etc. Does the annual date move make it slightly difficult though?

[Cleon]

Really awesome thread and concept. Loved the previous one and am glad I can keep us with this one, especially about tracking development. Tempts me to do a game in Belgium now

Notes section was interesting and I'd love to see more about how you track developmen, reminders etc. Does the annual date move make it slightly difficult though?

I almost went with Anderlecht

How do you mean the annual date?

[DamianJMcGrath]

I remember reading Fergusons autobiographies and he mentioned there was a risk of playing youth sometimes, such as when Paul Parker got destroyed by Romario or his thoughts about Coquelin of Arsenal being out of his depth during Uniteds 8-2 victory and never really recovering since.

Do you find your players development being hampered by suffering big losses, losing consistently or having a shocker of a game?

I made an earlier comment to you asking about your results and if all this work made visible differences to the playing style, especially when watching the 3D games and your response was a bit confusing. You mentioned personalities don't change how they perform but then you mention personalities help them playing a certain way. Surely if they play your way better, that's an improved performance?

Overall, my question was about the measures of success. How will you know whether this work is a success or not? Presumably your end result wants to be an Ajax side made up of X and Y personality types, winning the league and possibly Europe, with a low average age, and with a youth setup that consistently brings through players with similar personality traits? Would those be your success criteria?

[Furkan]

Thank you very much for this awesome thread.

I also read the Personality/Media Handling guide by Nocuous which gave me the idea of preparing the spread sheet on Excel. People have mentioned that such a spread sheet was possible to make (the game engine obviously uses one) but I could not find any link or information that one has been made by players (please notify me if it's been done before). So I thought why not make one! I'm currently in the formatting stage -which is tedious but very necessary for Excel but once it's done, it's all about vlookup and if formulas. I hope I'll be able to build up the logic since it's a complicated one. If I manage to do it, I'll certainly post it up on the forums for download.

I'm currently managing Athletic Bilbao in my long, travelling manager save and obviously I had to concentrate in the youth development due to club's unique transfer regulations. It brings the youth development and squad management challenge to a complete new level which is incredibly enjoying. I managed to achieve a comfortable 3rd position in the league in the last 3 seasons and aiming to take down the above two obvious giants (who ridiculously sign every single top player in the world and win almost every game) in the next 3 depending on a bit of luck and a lot of hard work

A bit off-topic but I noticed that as Ath. Bilbao manager, I could sign Spanish newgens aged 16 and below and when they join the club, they gain Basque nationality. Any idea if this is intended or a bug because if it's a bug, I'll completely ignore any out-of-the club newgen except from R. Sociedad, Osasuna and a couple lower league clubs.

P.S.:

I almost went with Anderlecht

You should have gone with Ath. Bilbao

[Guest]

Thank you very much for this awesome thread.

I also read the Personality/Media Handling guide by Nocuous which gave me the idea of preparing the spread sheet on Excel. People have mentioned that such a spread sheet was possible to make (the game engine obviously uses one) but I could not find any link or information that one has been made by players (please notify me if it's been done before). So I thought why not make one! I'm currently in the formatting stage -which is tedious but very necessary for Excel but once it's done, it's all about vlookup and if formulas. I hope I'll be able to build up the logic since it's a complicated one. If I manage to do it, I'll certainly post it up on the forums for download.

I'm currently managing Athletic Bilbao in my long, travelling manager save and obviously I had to concentrate in the youth development due to club's unique transfer regulations. It brings the youth development and squad management challenge to a complete new level which is incredibly enjoying. I managed to achieve a comfortable 3rd position in the league in the last 3 seasons and aiming to take down the above two obvious giants (who ridiculously sign every single top player in the world and win almost every game) in the next 3 depending on a bit of luck and a lot of hard work

A bit off-topic but I noticed that as Ath. Bilbao manager, I could sign Spanish newgens aged 16 and below and when they join the club, they gain Basque nationality. Any idea if this is intended or a bug because if it's a bug, I'll completely ignore any out-of-the club newgen except from R. Sociedad, Osasuna and a couple lower league clubs.

P.S.:

You should have gone with Ath. Bilbao

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure this question was asked before and the answer was that Bilbao's policy is that they regard young Spanish players as Basque players if they come through their youth system.

[Mark.]

Top post I like how it is organised and I can look through each players development.

I have read through the entire thing, but am sure I must have missed it, but a quick question, with the General Training, you say you set it to Balanced, but at what level is that? Just leave on average ( as in your screenshot) I guess this leads into another question; do you train this while focusing on fitness in the preseason. I usually crank it to high, and while I see the players getting match fit quickly, they do seem to be picking up a lot of muscular injuries, perhaps due to overworking? Or just coincidence?

[Cleon]

Thank you very much for this awesome thread.

I also read the Personality/Media Handling guide by Nocuous which gave me the idea of preparing the spread sheet on Excel. People have mentioned that such a spread sheet was possible to make (the game engine obviously uses one) but I could not find any link or information that one has been made by players (please notify me if it's been done before). So I thought why not make one! I'm currently in the formatting stage -which is tedious but very necessary for Excel but once it's done, it's all about vlookup and if formulas. I hope I'll be able to build up the logic since it's a complicated one. If I manage to do it, I'll certainly post it up on the forums for download.

I'm currently managing Athletic Bilbao in my long, travelling manager save and obviously I had to concentrate in the youth development due to club's unique transfer regulations. It brings the youth development and squad management challenge to a complete new level which is incredibly enjoying. I managed to achieve a comfortable 3rd position in the league in the last 3 seasons and aiming to take down the above two obvious giants (who ridiculously sign every single top player in the world and win almost every game) in the next 3 depending on a bit of luck and a lot of hard work

A bit off-topic but I noticed that as Ath. Bilbao manager, I could sign Spanish newgens aged 16 and below and when they join the club, they gain Basque nationality. Any idea if this is intended or a bug because if it's a bug, I'll completely ignore any out-of-the club newgen except from R. Sociedad, Osasuna and a couple lower league clubs.

P.S.:

You should have gone with Ath. Bilbao

Post 105 in the 2nd link I posted in the personality section of this guide has a excel sheet with player personalities on for people to download

As for Bilbao I believe they are allowed to sign players u17's regardless of nationality in FM so its working as intended.

[Cleon]

Top post I like how it is organised and I can look through each players development.

I have read through the entire thing, but am sure I must have missed it, but a quick question, with the General Training, you say you set it to Balanced, but at what level is that? Just leave on average ( as in your screenshot) I guess this leads into another question; do you train this while focusing on fitness in the preseason. I usually crank it to high, and while I see the players getting match fit quickly, they do seem to be picking up a lot of muscular injuries, perhaps due to overworking? Or just coincidence?

It's set to low. And I tend to use team cohesion in preseason not actually fitness

[Cleon]

I remember reading Fergusons autobiographies and he mentioned there was a risk of playing youth sometimes, such as when Paul Parker got destroyed by Romario or his thoughts about Coquelin of Arsenal being out of his depth during Uniteds 8-2 victory and never really recovering since.

Do you find your players development being hampered by suffering big losses, losing consistently or having a shocker of a game?

I made an earlier comment to you asking about your results and if all this work made visible differences to the playing style, especially when watching the 3D games and your response was a bit confusing. You mentioned personalities don't change how they perform but then you mention personalities help them playing a certain way. Surely if they play your way better, that's an improved performance?

Overall, my question was about the measures of success. How will you know whether this work is a success or not? Presumably your end result wants to be an Ajax side made up of X and Y personality types, winning the league and possibly Europe, with a low average age, and with a youth setup that consistently brings through players with similar personality traits? Would those be your success criteria?

Nah its a myth that players don't develop well and lose games. They still develop the same.

I didn't mention personalities help them play a certain way at all, I think you've misread . The PPM's will help them play a certain way but personality won't really help with that. A player needs a certain type of personality as explained in that section to be able to reach his potential or have a chance at making it but none of this is about 'on the pitch' and is more about giving him the correct personality so he has a chance of reaching his potential.

I think you don't get the thread at all in all honesty. It's not about success and measuring it its about developing every single player the best I can for them to reach their own potential nothing else really matters. As I stated I don't really play the game for results or anything I play if just for the development side of the game. My side will have certain personalities though that is true I told what types I'd have/be looking at giving them in the personality section of the thread.

The goal is just to develop players plain and simple. As for knowing if its worked or not that is easy as I'll be tailoring players to do a specific thing or play a specific way and you can see if they are doing that in the match engine when playing games. I understand how training works inside out so I know if something will/won't work before I even do it.

[Chef Raekwon]

Great thread, Cleon!

[darius9]

Super thread Cleon.

What about semi-pro clubs training? What's the best aproach for them?

My personal aproach is "forget about those lazy ******** getting better and get the club to professional level ASAP". Is it worth trying your methods at semi-pro level, cause i feel they just train too little.

[Cleon]

Super thread Cleon.

What about semi-pro clubs training? What's the best aproach for them?

My personal aproach is "forget about those lazy ******** getting better and get the club to professional level ASAP". Is it worth trying your methods at semi-pro level, cause i feel they just train too little.

Even at semi pro or low level clubs you still want to develop the best player you can surely for the level you are at?

[darius9]

My level is Skrill north. Fun to play there, but the problem for lower leagues are, you can't sign long contracts and expect to sell them for relative big money and of course low training level.

7 years into the game and every season looks the same. Play beautiful football, dominate matches, then by the end of december fall into bad form, loose 5-15 matches in a row and the season is done. Tried everything, low tempo, def set pieces training, lowering menthality. Nothing helps. Sometimes you can't do nothing if oposition starts to score 70 yard free kicks, defenders scoring own goals, goalkeepers becoming blind and defenders trying to atempt murder while on "ease off tackles" instruction.

Could changing training methods help me get of these bad form patches? Maybe it's down to preseason?

Anyway... on topic... How are you doing with the results? And what are you doing with training happiness. For example a lot of my players cry about high training level, but all i do is train them tacticly until fluid and then def set pieces

[Lakeytw]

I am playing as FC United in a Skrill North league, and am trying to set up my team training schedule. I would like to add a rest day prior to each match. However, I don't see that option. The scheduling slider is there but is not selectable and neither rest option is even present. Is it because I am a semi professinal team? Or is it my training facilities (Poor)? Or am I not doing it right somehow?

[Cleon]

I am playing as FC United in a Skrill North league, and am trying to set up my team training schedule. I would like to add a rest day prior to each match. However, I don't see that option. The scheduling slider is there but is not selectable and neither rest option is even present. Is it because I am a semi professinal team? Or is it my training facilities (Poor)? Or am I not doing it right somehow?

For semi pro clubs its all done auto because if you also allowed them a day off they'd never train

[Lakeytw]

For semi pro clubs its all done auto because if you also allowed them a day off they'd never train

I presumed that might be the case. But I am new enough that I figured I better ask the dumb question rather than not.

[DavidPengilley]

I almost went with Anderlecht

How do you mean the annual date?

Serbia and Croatia has a few other excellent youth development clubs, although Belgium is pretty vogue at the moment

On this thread, it was pointed out that if you set reminders on your notes they move a day or two annually. But I assume you don't set reminders?

[DamianJMcGrath]

You're right, perhaps I have misunderstood the point of the thread. If this is purely an intellectual exercise, then fine. No questions needed. However I was thinking that everything you do must surely have one overall aim which is for the benefit of better results. Otherwise what's the point? What's the point of getting some players to be highly developed if results are poor?

That's where my misunderstanding came from. I didn't realise you were doing this as an "to see if I can" exercise.

A question people might be asking though is "how can I apply some things you've shown us in our own games". For us to gauge effectiveness of following some of your principles, there would need to be some demonstrable benefit over ignoring all of the personality developments and just picking a side like normal. Otherwise, aside from being interesting, what's the point?

(Apologies for any negative tone, I am finding this interesting but my brain focuses on things better if I can understand the point of it or how I can actively use something to the team benefit)

[Cleon]

If you've read the personality part then you'll know why personality is important if you focus on youth development. You are asking questions that have been answered or are all ready explained how they work.

I never said I got poor results either

This will sound big headed but I'll always get results no matter what because I understand the ME and how the game works, so I know the ins and outs of the systems I use. I play the game for pure player development nothing else. Like no doubt you play the game for a particular reason, player development is mine.

For using stuff in your own game everything is highlighted and explained. If you use player development then a player must have the correct personality to have a chance of reaching their potential seeing as what determines how well a player develops is down to professionalism and ambition. Then you need players with a personality type that includes this. If you ignore personality and have players who have balanced etc then they'll still develop but its unlikely they'll ever reach their potential. That's the whole point, making the player as developed as possible.

Obviously as the player develops and the better he gets this can only be a good thing for the side because he'll have all the required attributes that you want for the role he is playing. I'm honestly not sure what it is that you 'don't get' in all honesty.

No need to apologise btw its all good

[Cleon]

Serbia and Croatia has a few other excellent youth development clubs, although Belgium is pretty vogue at the moment

On this thread, it was pointed out that if you set reminders on your notes they move a day or two annually. But I assume you don't set reminders?

Ah I'm with you now. Most things I do are on either a month or every 2 months as a reminder

[DavidPengilley]

Ah okay - do you see much change in that 2 month period?

In my head I imagine it takes 6 - 12 months for anything to happen

[Cleon]

Ah okay - do you see much change in that 2 month period?

In my head I imagine it takes 6 - 12 months for anything to happen

You have to remember that attributes aren't actually scored on 20's under the hood its 100. So each bit has a stage to it, so some attributes depending which stage they are at will change in the 2 month period an awful lot of the time. That's why I rotate because its unlikely that something will change 2 in a row, so I shift the focus for a while elsewhere while the other attributes still rise naturally on their own if that makes sense.

[DavidPengilley]

Makes sense completely! In my head I was thinking that the 'tactical roles' develop players quicker/more because they focus on more skills rather than just one.

However I guess that they spread the load out more, thus more gradual increases, whereas a focus on an attribute has more potential of seeing a spike in that attribute?

[Letissier1980]

You have to remember that attributes aren't actually scored on 20's under the hood its 100. So each bit has a stage to it, so some attributes depending which stage they are at will change in the 2 month period an awful lot of the time. That's why I rotate because its unlikely that something will change 2 in a row, so I shift the focus for a while elsewhere while the other attributes still rise naturally on their own if that makes sense.

I've just learned something new today

[Cleon]

Makes sense completely! In my head I was thinking that the 'tactical roles' develop players quicker/more because they focus on more skills rather than just one.

However I guess that they spread the load out more, thus more gradual increases, whereas a focus on an attribute has more potential of seeing a spike in that attribute?

Ahh yeah I follow you now

Working on one attribute like I do increases the chance of that one raising and he still does minimal training on his other attributes for his natural position so there is a chance he will still rise in other striker attributes too.

By focusing on a role you do increase the chance of more attributes being worked on but it can be a bit slower. The main reason I focus on individual attributes first is I believe a player should have an identity early in his career and not later in his career. So by focusing on the attributes I want for the role and what I think the player is lacking, long term the pay off is greater imo. But training a role can be equally rewarding, its just this is the way I've always done it but others might prefer the other way

[Cleon]

I've just learned something new today

That's why we have a graph in the profile for training attributes as this shows some of the changes better than a green arrow does on a profile. It's why a red arrow isn't always bad, it could be he lost 0.01 off an attribute whcih isn't even noticeable yet some will think the player is on a major decline

[Letissier1980]

That's why we have a graph in the profile for training attributes as this shows some of the changes better than a green arrow does on a profile. It's why a red arrow isn't always bad, it could be he lost 0.01 off an attribute whcih isn't even noticeable yet some will think the player is on a major decline

Bang on as always. Class thread as always. Can't believe you mods don't get paid for the work you do on this site. Happy new year to you.

[Cleon]

Bang on as always. Class thread as always. Can't believe you mods don't get paid for the work you do on this site. Happy new year to you.

Thanks mate, you too and all the best

[remembertofeedthecat]

Slow day in work today so I got a chance to read some of the stuff referenced by Cleon above. In particular this one: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide?p=9219453#post9219453

I've always loved the Tutoring feature. Now historically I always focussed on getting determination higher. I guess my priority was Determination first, Professionalism second and I never really thought much of ambition :o

Reading this article and also the nitty gritty in the link above has been a real eye opener. I NEVER EVER paid any attention to the media handling trait. Having read that article it's gonna make a huge change to who I get to do my tutoring. So an evasive or reserved MH trait implies 15-20 for professionalism! WOW! So any of the personalities with a high floor in ambition, plus a good determination stat, plus an evasive/reserved MH equals solid ratings in the key hidden attributes for player development, AKA a poor man's perfectionist. Suffice it to say I'll be scouring the transfer market for cheap tutors that fulfil that criteria from now on!!.

[Benspit]

Hey Cleon, thanks again for a wonderful post! I have a few questions regarding first team & reserve team exposure:

1. At what point will you move a player from the Under 19s/Youth into the 1st team full time? When they turn a particular age? When they are good enough to contribute?!

2. I note that you give your players that 1st team experience for their development...do these guys still play Under 19 games as well/train with them?

3. What are your thoughts on Reserve games for experience? Do you make your youth players available for the Reserve team?

4. Similar to question 1, is their an age where you consider a player to be no longer under development? Where you will cease tutoring him? Or does this carry on until they can't be tutored any more/are sold off?

[Cleon]

Hey Cleon, thanks again for a wonderful post! I have a few questions regarding first team & reserve team exposure:

1. At what point will you move a player from the Under 19s/Youth into the 1st team full time? When they turn a particular age? When they are good enough to contribute?!

2. I note that you give your players that 1st team experience for their development...do these guys still play Under 19 games as well/train with them?

3. What are your thoughts on Reserve games for experience? Do you make your youth players available for the Reserve team?

4. Similar to question 1, is their an age where you consider a player to be no longer under development? Where you will cease tutoring him? Or does this carry on until they can't be tutored any more/are sold off?

1. I only have 1 squad (first team) then I select available for b team or u19's for them. That way I keep keep track of match fitness, condition and injuries. I don't keep players in those other 2 squads because I like to give as many of them first team experience as much as possible.

2. Yes they'll still play u19's too. Although the ones who get around 20+ games a season wont get u19 games though as I don't want to over play them.

3. Covered in Q1

4. You'll have a good idea how someone is progressing by the time they are 18 is you got them at 15-16. If you got them at 18-19 then you might not know until age 21-22. I like to get the player as early as possible rather than later in their career. So it comes down to what age you bought a player etc for me.

[Spireheart]

Cleon, do you have a particular wage cap? I tend not to go above 30k a week with Ajax, it's tough though when your favourite player is demanding more. I guess you can't become too attached to players with this team.

[Cleon]

Cleon, do you have a particular wage cap? I tend not to go above 30k a week with Ajax, it's tough though when your favourite player is demanding more. I guess you can't become too attached to players with this team.

Not really because when you become more successful i,.e winning the Champs League then reputations rise so you have to pay more. It's not that bad though at Ajax and players don't demand silly wages like in England etc. But I tend to pay them fair as it doesn't mean I'm forced to sell by adding a stipulation. Although if someone asked for 70-80k then I would seriously consider selling them if I had a youth to replace them with.

[Torskus77]

Fantastic thread, and an inspiration for me (and many others I'm sure) I have a few questions, if you'd prefer some of them in the Santos thread then by all means move them (or delete and I'll do it again) I thought seeing as this thread was active now, they were better in here.

Regarding Pre-Season

Your posts on this have been so helpful you can't even imagine. I have a few things I'd like help with if at all possible.

I've obviously got the basics down with your help.

You say to use one tactic throughout pre-season, to get it full fluid, I never managed to get it fully fluid but it was close enough by the time the season started. Few problems, this is more about your first pre-season than after that. You can't change your tactic at all during pre-season, or the fluidity takes much longer, this causes problems in itself, because you can't really try anything out. I guess I can live with this to be well prepared at the start of the season. Next problem though, you get to the first game of the season, and you only have one tactic framework anywhere near fluid, I'd like to have 3 (or at least 2) different tactics, even if the same formation with different set ups for different situations. I think it took until six weeks in to the season to get absolute fluidity in my original tactic, do I really have to wait that long before I can add more options? Hope this makes sense.

I noticed with the fluidity, that certain parts of it take much longer than others, I think that your side is set a default set of settings when you start the game, which are more fluid to begin with than others, and the further you stray from those with your set up, the longer those part of the tactics will take. For example I set my tactic in my last save to hassle opponent, and the closing down part of the tactic took much longer than the rest of it to become fluid.

Nurturing youth to do a specific job

I've learned a ton of stuff off you about this topic also (thank you)

Obviously starting as a League 1 club is slightly different to being Ajax, I have a handful of youth players who look like they could play League 1 football with the right work put in to them. I'm guessing being at Walsall not many of them are going to have really high PA, as they will be relative do the division/club and facilities at the club from the start. I really need to focus on specific attributes for certain roles, without wasting to much on other parts of their attribute set up.

Training them with basic roles that don't require a bunch of attributes is my plan for the short term in my project. This could be problematic with some players, as they have unbalanced stats, but I am capable of working out the best roles to train them for (which I can use in my set up)

Do you feel just training them a role is the best way to go with this, or try and do burst of training on different attributes. For example I have a young center back, he looks reasonable in some areas, he needs some of his mental stats to rise (as most of them do) I plan on using Tactics rather than balanced for my general training for this reason (is this something you think is reasonable?) His positioning is awful though, would need to rise a lot. Would you focus on his positioning from the off at the expense of other key attributes which also need quite a bit of work to make him a league 1 worthy center back, or just train the role for the first season, and evaluate at the end of the season?

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

[Cleon]

Regarding Pre-Season

Your posts on this have been so helpful you can't even imagine. I have a few things I'd like help with if at all possible.

I've obviously got the basics down with your help.

You say to use one tactic throughout pre-season, to get it full fluid, I never managed to get it fully fluid but it was close enough by the time the season started. Few problems, this is more about your first pre-season than after that. You can't change your tactic at all during pre-season, or the fluidity takes much longer, this causes problems in itself, because you can't really try anything out. I guess I can live with this to be well prepared at the start of the season. Next problem though, you get to the first game of the season, and you only have one tactic framework anywhere near fluid, I'd like to have 3 (or at least 2) different tactics, even if the same formation with different set ups for different situations. I think it took until six weeks in to the season to get absolute fluidity in my original tactic, do I really have to wait that long before I can add more options? Hope this makes sense.

I noticed with the fluidity, that certain parts of it take much longer than others, I think that your side is set a default set of settings when you start the game, which are more fluid to begin with than others, and the further you stray from those with your set up, the longer those part of the tactics will take. For example I set my tactic in my last save to hassle opponent, and the closing down part of the tactic took much longer than the rest of it to become fluid.

You'll still face these issues when its fluid though and if you change the team instructions some familiarity will be lost. Are you a part time club? Because if you are a full time one if you follow the advice then you should be all fluid with-in the first week after season starts if you set up the required friendlies etc. You do have another option here though, choose a league that starts just before the Prem one so you have extra time to learn more than 1 tactic. This is something a lot of users do for the first preseason

It's upto you how long you wait but you just have to understand that the more you are trying to learn the longer it'll take. The preseason bits of the thread are just aimed at showing people how to get a tactic fluid in the quickest possible time and explaining what impacts the drops in familiarity. How you use this or how you change stuff comes down to you and how you play the game

I've learned a ton of stuff off you about this topic also (thank you)

Obviously starting as a League 1 club is slightly different to being Ajax, I have a handful of youth players who look like they could play League 1 football with the right work put in to them. I'm guessing being at Walsall not many of them are going to have really high PA, as they will be relative do the division/club and facilities at the club from the start. I really need to focus on specific attributes for certain roles, without wasting to much on other parts of their attribute set up.

I don't see it as being different at all regardless of what club I am. In my Sheffield United and Sheffield FC saves I approach it all the same. Sure my players will have a lower PA but that's not the point of why I approach training this way. I approach it so every single player is tailored to suit my tactical approach and has the attributes that I require for their role. So even though PA is lower we still want the best possible player we can create for the role he will play at our club. That's how I view it

Do you feel just training them a role is the best way to go with this, or try and do burst of training on different attributes. For example I have a young center back, he looks reasonable in some areas, he needs some of his mental stats to rise (as most of them do) I plan on using Tactics rather than balanced for my general training for this reason (is this something you think is reasonable?)

Using tactics will make every single player at the club focus on those attributes though and not every single player will need the same training. So for me no this isn't ever a reasonable approach for me, but if you feel it is best for you. General training is more generic rather than tailoring a player.

His positioning is awful though, would need to rise a lot. Would you focus on his positioning from the off at the expense of other key attributes which also need quite a bit of work to make him a league 1 worthy center back, or just train the role for the first season, and evaluate at the end of the season?

Both ways have advantages so it all comes down to personal preference. If it was my own player I'd focus positioning because that's the bread and butter of what a defender needs. If he lacks positioning then he'll always be half a yard behind regardless of how good his other attributes might be. What use is a defender if he can't take up the correct positions to defend? That's how I view it all

[Torskus77]

Thank you, very helpful.

Final question promise, was just about to edit it in to my original post, but you'd already responded :-)

I have 5 players that I think I can make in to decent to good first team players, they aren't anywhere near first team standard yet for my league, their ages range from 17-19, obviously I will have younger players to work with in the future, but at the start of the game this is what I'm dealt with. So obviously I can't throw them all in willy nilly together in the first team, I'm going to have to carefully select times they can play, come off the bench for 20 minutes etc.

How many games as a minimum would you say they really need to make good progress, obviously more the better, but if I use them all from the off I will almost certainly get the sack :-) I assume the game calculates it in minutes rather than games, but I don't know this for sure. They can all make full first team appearances, just not all together, using them off the bench, and as cover for my first team is what I plan to do.

[Cleon]

I like the questions keep them coming, always happy to help if I can

I have 5 players that I think I can make in to decent to good first team players, they aren't anywhere near first team standard yet for my league, their ages range from 17-19, obviously I will have younger players to work with in the future, but at the start of the game this is what I'm dealt with. So obviously I can't throw them all in willy nilly together in the first team, I'm going to have to carefully select times they can play, come off the bench for 20 minutes etc.

During the course of the season you'll end up using them more when injuries, tiredness and suspensions happen .

How many games as a minimum would you say they really need to make good progress, obviously more the better, but if I use them all from the off I will almost certainly get the sack :-) I assume the game calculates it in minutes rather than games, but I don't know this for sure. They can all make full first team appearances, just not all together, using them off the bench, and as cover for my first team is what I plan to do.

A player needs atleast 15 mins per match to get a rating. But as for the number of games/minutes he needs during the same there isn't a magic number but rather more game time is always better. So just give them as much as you feel is possible for the club you have.

[Torskus77]

Ah I always thought it was 20 mins to get a match rating, I noticed in previous versions if a players scores they get a rating regardless of how long they'd been on, not sure if that's still true, not that, that bit is important.

I've been working on giving them a minimum of 20 mins for years, not sure where I got that figure from now. I find it quite difficult especially in FM214 to get them on in time sometimes, sometimes you need to get the subs booked in for not long after 60 mins to get them on for 70 mins, where as other times it will be instant (when the ball goes out of play quicker obviously)

In the past I have just gone out signed players with the intention of getting promoted, what I want to do with this game is give most of my squad a season, use my youth, and try and work on the tactics side of the game, so hopefully out of the 5 I have an eye on for a potential first team spot a couple can make it in the first team next season.

[nickdc]

A follow up question on training.

I understand the difference between General and Match training. But what about the drop down menu on the calender which has Match Preparation?

All three can be set to different things, yet the scheduling bar mentions General and Match Training only, yet Match Prep is what is then effected on the calender when moved.

Any help?

[GEORGE WEAH]

Absolutely magnificent thread ive just deleted my save to embark on a new adventure after reading the opening post, great work Cleon i really do admire your work.