Group D-Day - England vs Ukraine & Sweden vs France (Gills' title, but Leppard's OP) 19:45

[Boltman]

Someone the other day mentioned about the teams with the fewest amount of possession likely being England and Ireland, tonight England were out-possessed 42-58%. Just goes to show what a misleading stat possession really is.

True in certain respects, however, England took one of their few chances, Ukraine failed to do so. England are going to struggle mightily against better opposition if the plan is still to go out and cede possession and territory, hope to soak up the pressure, and win 1-0. It's fine against a 'lesser' side when they squander chances like Ukraine did tonight and you squeek a fortunate winner. I doubt even Italy will be as forgiving. Can you see England giving them 58% of the ball and Italy not scoring?

[CaptainPlanet]

Got to give props to Hodgson, won both friendlies, and did exactly what we wanted in the group. Even if we get hammered 0-5 by Italy, he deserves credit for what he's done in such a short space of time.

Milner really makes me long for Downing though. Has been shocking.

[Leppard]

Well, Spain had about 60% possession (probably more) and struggled to break down Croatia.

[Bootador]

Means nothing if we don't beat Italy.

For all our underachieving in the past, we are ranked 6th in the world (4th in Europe) according to FIFA.

My allegences are now switching to Team Mario (and De Rossi) because there's too many detestable English players

[SeanNUFC]

Means nothing if we don't beat Italy.

For all our underachieving in the past, we are ranked 6th in the world (4th in Europe) according to FIFA.

My allegences are now switching to Team Mario (and De Rossi) because there's too many detestable English players

Wouldn't say it means nothing, main aim was to get out of the group iirc.

[Big Geordie]

Milner really makes me long for Downing though. Has been shocking.

As has Ashley Young.

[Rebs]

Means nothing if we don't beat Italy.

For all our underachieving in the past, we are ranked 6th in the world (4th in Europe) according to FIFA.

My allegences are now switching to Team Mario (and De Rossi) because there's too many detestable English players

Absolutely shocking Boot...think you're doing that just for effect hopefully.

[Boltman]

Well, Spain had about 60% possession (probably more) and struggled to break down Croatia.

Spain are an oddity though, in that the vast bulk of their possession is entirely meaningless, since they use possession of the ball in lieu of not being able to defend, and are quite happy to endlessly pass it sideways. Sometimes wonder if VdB and Guardiola don't wish the pitch was turned through 90 degrees just so they can squeeze in a few more utterly pointless sideways passes. Spain really aren't a relevant example when it comes to possession simply because they're a law unto themselves and don't bear comparison with most other sides.

[CaptainPlanet]

I think Young's been fine personally.

[Lermon]

I disagree about Ashley Young. He puts in a lot of work-rate.

[Bababui]

True in certain respects, however, England took one of their few chances, Ukraine failed to do so. England are going to struggle mightily against better opposition if the plan is still to go out and cede possession and territory, hope to soak up the pressure, and win 1-0. It's fine against a 'lesser' side when they squander chances like Ukraine did tonight and you squeek a fortunate winner. I doubt even Italy will be as forgiving. Can you see England giving them 58% of the ball and Italy not scoring?

It also matters just where this possession is. If its in the back 2/3 it doesnt mean much. I think Italy will be hard on England because they are tall, strong and technical..and they are very good on set plays. It will be very hard to beat them on the counter. But it should be an interesting match.

[foofighter23]

got to say that was hilarious from rooney :D

[foolsgold]

I disagree about Ashley Young. He puts in a lot of work-rate.

He does, I just think he's not as comfortable playing in the deeper position for England, and isn't clever enough to adapt at the moment. Needs to learn a bit I think.

[Bababui]

Its odd that some people seem to think that so called attractive play is equal to or better than winning. These England matches are ugly but they are fun to watch and they leave you feeling good afterward.

[Big Geordie]

I think Young's been fine personally.

He's feckin pish. Can't beat his man, find a team-mate with a pass/cross. I won't buy this 'works hard/looks busy' cack - not good enough and given the style that England play, you can't afford passengers.

[SeanNUFC]

Think the correct word for Young is 'mediocre'.

[Boltman]

These England matches are ugly but they are fun to watch

:confused:

In what way are they good to watch?

Understandable if you're an England fan and only really care about results, but as a neutral the football is like watching paint dry, and from the perspective of analysis there's nothing remotely interesting or innovative about how Hodgson sets England up or how they go about playing.

[Leppard]

Spain are an oddity though, in that the vast bulk of their possession is entirely meaningless, since they use possession of the ball in lieu of not being able to defend, and are quite happy to endlessly pass it sideways. Sometimes wonder if VdB and Guardiola don't wish the pitch was turned through 90 degrees just so they can squeeze in a few more utterly pointless sideways passes. Spain really aren't a relevant example when it comes to possession simply because they're a law unto themselves and don't bear comparison with most other sides.

Let's not talk about del Bosque and his love of possession -_-

[SeanNUFC]

:confused:

In what way are they good to watch?

Understandable if you're an England fan and only really care about results, but as a neutral the football is like watching paint dry, and from the perspective of analysis there's nothing remotely interesting or innovative about how Hodgson sets England up or how they go about playing.

We were not like Chelsea v Barcelona if you want to put it that way.

[Wakers]

He's feckin pish. Can't beat his man, find a team-mate with a pass/cross. I won't buy this 'works hard/looks busy' cack - not good enough and given the style that England play, you can't afford passengers.

He did drop the ball onto Rooney's head on the 6 yard line in the first half. And he works very hard covering for whichever crappy fullback he's playing in front of, who seem to have no idea who or what the term "marking" means or who it applies to.

Who crossed for the goal?

He did also leave his man for dead a few times in the second half.

[CaptainPlanet]

He's feckin pish. Can't beat his man

Apart from all those times where he beat his man.

[Leppard]

With Young, the amount of tracking back he does is insane. And he actually offers some kind of skill on the ball, so he's a better choice than, say, Downing. He hasn't been at his best, though, not even close.

[Leppard]

He did drop the ball onto Rooney's head on the 6 yard line in the first half. And he works very hard covering for whichever crappy fullback he's playing in front of, who seem to have no idea who or what the term "marking" means or who it applies to.

Who crossed for the goal?

Gerrard. England's best player up to now.

[foolsgold]

:confused:

In what way are they good to watch?

Understandable if you're an England fan and only really care about results, but as a neutral the football is like watching paint dry, and from the perspective of analysis there's nothing remotely interesting or innovative about how Hodgson sets England up or how they go about playing.

What teams have been interesting or innovative all tournament? Italy are like us. Spain are boring. France are nothing special. Netherlands are out. The only team looking good and playing well are Germany. Hardly fair to single out England in this respect.

[Bababui]

:confused:

In what way are they good to watch?

Understandable if you're an England fan and only really care about results, but as a neutral the football is like watching paint dry, and from the perspective of analysis there's nothing remotely interesting or innovative about how Hodgson sets England up or how they go about playing.

Im not English but the matches are competitive, they are close, the players are playing really hard but they are obviously heavily burdened by the pressure inflicted upon them by fans and themselves. Its also fun to read the moaning and dramatics of England fans.

[Big Geordie]

Gerrard was MoM tonight - head and shoulders above the rest.

Also stand by what I said on Young and Milner is just as bad.

[Wakers]

Spain are boring?

That's why they've scored so many goals then, is it? Honestly, what do some of you people watch?

Germany have pretty much been the most consistent team so far. They look deadly when they attack and comfortable when they defend.

[Boltman]

We were not like Chelsea v Barcelona if you want to put it that way.

Difference there though is that all eleven behind the ball, tight 4-4-2, and discipline in holding positions and deep lines, quick counter, has emerged as the preferred strategy to counter the very peculiar and specific approach of Barcelona. Hodgson's England seem set to play in a sterile and negative manner regardless of the opposition, even when it's supposedly inferior like tonight or against Sweden.

It's a bit like Chelsea playing the way they did in the CL semi against Barca, then going out and taking exactly the same approach to playing some non-league outfit in the FA cup a few days later. That approach is specifically designed to counter the specific threat posed by Barca alone, where as England seem hell bent on being dull and negative regardless of the opposition.

[SeanNUFC]

Difference there though is that all eleven behind the ball, tight 4-4-2, and discipline in holding positions and deep lines, quick counter, has emerged as the preferred strategy to counter the very peculiar and specific approach of Barcelona. Hodgson's England seem set to play in a sterile and negative manner regardless of the opposition, even when it's supposedly inferior like tonight or against Sweden.

It's a bit like Chelsea playing the way they did in the CL semi against Barca, then going out and taking exactly the same approach to playing some non-league outfit in the FA cup a few days later. That approach is specifically designed to counter the specific threat posed by Barca alone, where as England seem hell bent on being dull and negative regardless of the opposition.

You have it stuck in your mind how we were gonna play and didn't watch the game, well not the 2nd half anyway.

[Citizen Sandman]

too much negativity, things are going quite well

[Wakers]

Difference there though is that all eleven behind the ball, tight 4-4-2, and discipline in holding positions and deep lines, quick counter, has emerged as the preferred strategy to counter the very peculiar and specific approach of Barcelona. Hodgson's England seem set to play in a sterile and negative manner regardless of the opposition, even when it's supposedly inferior like tonight or against Sweden.

It's a bit like Chelsea playing the way they did in the CL semi against Barca, then going out and taking exactly the same approach to playing some non-league outfit in the FA cup a few days later. That approach is specifically designed to counter the specific threat posed by Barca alone, where as England seem hell bent on being dull and negative regardless of the opposition.

Eh, I think this is a bit harsh on Roy. This is what every English team has played like regardless of opposition since Sven. Considering he pretty much had no time at all to make any real changes on the team before the tournament, he's done remarkably well.

[Boltman]

Spain are boring?

Yes, soporifically so.

Not quite as boring as Barca though thankfully, and at least Spain have the option of changing approach by using Llorente when Plan A gets found out. Just a pity VdB seems loathe to use him.

[CaptainPlanet]

Hodgson's England seem set to play in a sterile and negative manner regardless of the opposition, even when it's supposedly inferior like tonight or against Sweden.

And when a team with better players decide to play less rigid defensively and more attacking pass and move football like France they, er, lose to Sweden

[Zvonimir Boban]

Spain are boring?

That's why they've scored so many goals then, is it? Honestly, what do some of you people watch?

Being extremely efficient doesn't make them entertaining ffs

[Wakers]

Judging by that comment then, I presume Boltman finds Blackburn Rovers the most entertaining footballing side in the history of football

[Wakers]

Being extremely efficient doesn't make them entertaining ffs

What nonsense is this?

The fact that they know they can't defend and instead get around that by attacking and playing in the opposition's half constantly makes them entertaining.

[foolsgold]

Spain are boring?

That's why they've scored so many goals then, is it? Honestly, what do some of you people watch?

Germany have pretty much been the most consistent team so far. They look deadly when they attack and comfortable when they defend.

So many goals? They hammered a very, very poor Ireland team, fair enough. Then scored 1 in each other game... They are quite a boring team to watch. At least we agree on Germany which is one thing.

I genuinely think the high expectations come from the trend in our country of supporting only the top teams. That's your choice obviously, but people all over the country are used to watching extremely high quality football, given their choices of supporting the Man Utd's and the Liverpool's regardless of where you are from. All the Championship supporters that I know have the lesser expectations, they are used to poorer performances and are more realistic and have more patience when it comes to England. Could be totally innacurate, but it's just something I've noticed.

Incidentally, are you English? All I see is you complaining to be honest!

[Zvonimir Boban]

Hodgson's England seem set to play in a sterile and negative manner regardless of the opposition, even when it's supposedly inferior like tonight or against Sweden.

Fortunately they're not good enough to do a proper Greece 2004 which has meant that the last couple of England games have had a bit of excitement.

[DandyDon]

Wish some of the pundits would stop saying that goal line incident was karma/justice for what happened in South Africa 2010.

Surely would only have been karma if it had happened against Germany after all

[Bootador]

Absolutely shocking Boot...think you're doing that just for effect hopefully.

Don't get me wrong, I think we done well to meet expectations given the circumstances. I also applaud what Roy has done to this team.

But with all due respect, we should be getting out of group containing Sweden and Ukraine without concern (and probably would have 9/10 times under any respectable manager)

[SeanNUFC]

Yes Spain are ****ing boring.

[Niebiescy]

England are fortunate to have been in such a weak group imo. Got out of jail due to Ukraine missing good opportunities and being toothless upfront. Think Hodgson needs to play 5 in midfield in future. Had the two sitting there on the half way line while getting over-run in the centre of midfield at times. If you want to play on the counter attack you need to have two holding midfielders to protect the defence. Two wingers are enough in speed terms supporting a forward. Will be interesting to see what happens against Italy who are also likely to play cautiously. Could maybe be the tournament's first 0-0 draw? On the plus side Gerrard and Terry looked excellent again. Rooney showed his natural ability and is working towards full fitness.

[Zvonimir Boban]

What nonsense is this?

The fact that they know they can't defend and instead get around that by attacking and playing in the opposition's half constantly makes them entertaining.

No, it makes them really, really, really, really, really good.

And very boring.

[Niebiescy]

Don't get me wrong, I think we done well to meet expectations given the circumstances.

But with all due respect, we should be getting out of group containing Sweden and Ukraine without concern.

Biggest injustice was against people like myself who bet on it finishing 1-1

[Boltman]

Judging by that comment then, I presume Boltman finds Blackburn Rovers the most entertaining footballing side in the history of football

Have literally no idea what you're getting at here.

[Citizen Sandman]

ukraine had momentum at the start due to significance and the crowd. we would have to of been incredible to dominate them from the off, or throughout the game

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't find Spain boring at all. I love watching Iniesta dribblig and Alonso and Xavi's range of passing. Even if it goes nowhere it's impressive.

It's like watching someone who's really good at snooker.

[Wakers]

So many goals? They hammered a very, very poor Ireland team, fair enough. Then scored 1 in each other game... They are quite a boring team to watch. At least we agree on Germany which is one thing.

I genuinely think the high expectations come from the trend in our country of supporting only the top teams. That's your choice obviously, but people all over the country are used to watching extremely high quality football, given their choices of supporting the Man Utd's and the Liverpool's regardless of where you are from. All the Championship supporters that I know have the lesser expectations, they are used to poorer performances and are more realistic and have more patience when it comes to England. Could be totally innacurate, but it's just something I've noticed.

Incidentally, are you English? All I see is you complaining to be honest!

Shouldn't this in fact confirm that I am indeed English?

[georginho_juventusygr]

England were great. Some people in this forum moan too much. You don't top the group with luck. Gerrard is the man. I'm looking forward into his meeting with Andrea Pirlo.

France were actually so-so, but have good players all over the place, and I have feeling that their best is yet to come. I'm looking forward into the match against Spain.

Ukraine did actually well. Their playing style has to be an example for the Netherlands. Ukraine didn't have the quality players to do so, but the Netherlands did. Pity for the phantom goal.

Sweden also did actually well. They just had lack of full backs, but my biggest regret is why Wilhelmsson didn't play for 270 minutes.

[roseboy64]

Looked offside to me, you can't expect ITV commentators to pick up on something like that though...

Trust Darke and McManaman to though.