FM09 - Will it be worth it

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

Considering there is always a demo before each release, you're pretty stupid to say "thats it I'm not buying your games anymore since I didn't like the last one". Try the demo, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, don't. But you can't say that you won't like the next one without playing it... especially since it's the FM game with the most testing ever of the match engine via FML garnering loads of feedback

I guess you won't be playing any football management game for quite a long time then, seeing as this is by far the most realistic one in terms of match engine and AI. All I can say is it will be your loss

I would of constructively argued against some of your points also, but since you have obviously made up your mind, it would be a waste of time. Farewell

You will say that now but by the time the FM 09 Demo comes out you'll change your mind!......I can't wait for FM 09!

But i do understand your questions....I get a disallowed goal every 2 games

1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics

2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics

6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?

I'm sorry, i stopped reading at "superkeepers"...

1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics

2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics

6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?

Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.

Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.

The sliders are perfectly logical, the only real ambiguity lies in the relationship between sliders - however this ambiguity is warranted to create something approaching a realistic simulation.

If you're having 20 shots to 1 and not winning then it is either a problem with your tactic, a problem with your CFs or a problem with team talks - whichever way you look at it the blame lies at your feet, if you aren't willing to accept that then it will never change.

I'm buying like.

Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.

That's not what I said. I also 100% accept that there are engine issues in FM08. However, I have little time for such poorly thought rants. Every complaint he has made has an answer in TT&T. Yet, after 11 months, out it comes!

The main problem with the engine is that narrow multi-strata and/or crazy arrowed tactics keep possession too easily and generate high shot counts. In every pkm I have seen with regards to this type of tactic the shots are speculative, snatched and scrambled. If people try to design tactics via watching the 2d rather than via match stats alone then these things won't happen.

The sliders are perfectly logical, the only real ambiguity lies in the relationship between sliders - however this ambiguity is warranted to create something approaching a realistic simulation.

If you're having 20 shots to 1 and not winning then it is either a problem with your tactic, a problem with your CFs or a problem with team talks - whichever way you look at it the blame lies at your feet, if you aren't willing to accept that then it will never change.

Sliders are not logical, they have no bearing on realism, you cannot tell a player to be a notch more attacking than another, or to have 1/20th more creative freedom. As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

Go back to Mexico Sven..

Most of your complaints are that you're not winning! i've played FM quite a lot and I can honestly say that I've hardly seen anything that you mention here. Apart from the poor media interactions which looks like it'll get immensely improved in 09 anyway..

Sliders are not logical, they have no bearing on realism, you cannot tell a player to be a notch more attacking than another, or to have 1/20th more creative freedom. As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.

If you struggle to find the logic in the sliders then i guess that's your problem. I find it in no way illogical that you can tell a player to be slightly more attack minded than another.

NB: If you can't see any noticable effect in an attacking CB then maybe that's why your claiming the sliders to be illogical...

If you struggle to find the logic in the sliders then i guess that's your problem. I find it in no way illogical that you can tell a player to be slightly more attack minded than another.

NB: If you can't see any noticable effect in an attacking CB then maybe that's why your claiming the sliders to be illogical...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=40985

all problems with the old transfer system should be gone with the transfer re-write and the rest of the AI problems can be lessened with tactics but hopefully they will be sorted in 09.

If you have so many problems with the game mate it bemuses me as to:

1. why you even bought it and..

2. why you are on the game's forum mindlessly complaining about it instead of at least offering constructive criticism

It appears to me that you just aren't doing well and are blaming the game for your shortcomings. In the words of FM's media interactions; "sounds like sour grapes to me."

Just my tuppence worth here but I agree with the topic originator when he talks about slider ambiguity and relationship ambiguity. I also find great difficulty in translating my ideas in principle to arranging the complex network of sliders to reflect that.

I can quite easily sit down and watch a football match and tell you whether a team is defending high, deep or whatever, whether they are playing a high or low tempo, who their playmaker is and who their targetman is - whether they are playing posession football or fast direct football to a targetmans head, feet or knocking the ball into the channels. I have a decent idea on how to counter those tactics also.

When it comes to the game I just struggle to work things out. I struggle between team sliders and individual sliders like mentality, closing down and suchlike. I just struggle in general as to which sliders interact with each other. It ends in a sorry confusing mess of a tactic.

I also struggle, like the topic originator, with the scale. I sit down and analyse logically and have difficulty trying to work out why i should tell a player to have a mentality of 16 out of 20. What benefit does that give me over a mentality of 15 or 10 or even 1 and how does that inidividual setting correlate with defensive line, time wasting or something else?

For example. If i watch a match where a team is pushing right up the pitch and has fast strikers, I would have my team defending deep (defensive line of 5?) and ask them to counter attack (tick the counter attack box) and would prefer to counter attack where my team is the paciest and where there would be a little more room (select down both flanks for example). Okay thats fine, but with FM you now get into the realms of confusion where a miniscule difference in individual menatality of players can blow you team wide open with spaces that the AI would only be too happy to route out at even the basic of levels and carry on exposing and punishing it. Thats before you even get onto width and tempo.

People talk about a real life simulaton. asking players to have a mentality ona scale of 1 through to 20 and suchlike is far far from simulating real life.

I can't visualise Sir Alex asking Ronaldo to take his mentality down by one notch, to 14 out of 20, at half time because he's a few too many millimetres up the pitch for his liking, or it's upsetting the mojo of his blind link between the team width, mentality and tempo.

I think we need to strip it back down to basics like asking a winger to push up, or hold his position, or get down the flanks or cut inside to alllow an overlapping fullback, or double bank with his fullback when defending etc etc

You'll still play it. don't lie.

1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics

2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics

6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?

:thup:

and, as someone else said, play the demo, and THEN decide. tbh its pretty daft saying youre not going to buy it at this stage, when you dont even know what the game is gonna be like....

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=40985

Isuck and wwfan answered that thread quite well - if you can't be bothered reading/understanding what they've said then no wonder you can't grasp the sliders.

i agree that there are too many goals disallowed and the media interaction is poor.

i have experinced pretty much everything else aswell, superkeepers, wasted chances, players with low attributes scoring great goals etc etc. but this only happens every now and again like i believe it happens in real life - there are occasions where poor teams get dominated and nick a 1-0 or hold out for a draw. the same with superkeepers in real life where they pull off save after save and with strikers wasting chances.

i think the problem is that sometimes people experience this too often and think its crap. because if this did happen a lot in your game then its understandable to get fed up-but like i said i have only experienced this a few times and most of the time my tactics work and i do well and do feel rewarded for my tactics.

the match engine should be a lot better for 09 though, as they've decided to make it 3d i expect that they must be very satisfied that the match engine is as good as it can be so why not just play the demo and see if its working better for you.

Divide £25 by the number of hours you played FM08 and I think it comes out alot cheaper than most activities you did last year.

Even those that didn't like FM08 I bet still played it for alot of hours. No-one forced you to play yet you still did when you could have spent that time with extra hours down the pub drinking away cash. As Miles says, FM saves you money!

Divide £25 by the number of hours you played FM08 and I think it comes out alot cheaper than most activities you did last year.

Even those that didn't like FM08 I bet still played it for alot of hours. No-one forced you to play yet you still did when you could have spent that time with extra hours down the pub drinking away cash. As Miles says, FM saves you money!

Bit of a weak statement though. For starters, would the people in question still have played so many hours if this was the first CM/FM? If the series had not been established? Many people, including me, (used to) buy this game religiously. Spending lots of hours on a game, hoping to get that feeling back (and failing to succeed at that) is a frustrating experience, one generally doesn't count these hours as entertainment.

At any rate, people should really be more critical before the purchase, instead of after.

I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

Bit of a weak statement though. For starters, would the people in question still have played so many hours if this was the first CM/FM? If the series had not been established? Many people, including me, (used to) buy this game religiously. Spending lots of hours on a game, hoping to get that feeling back (and failing to succeed at that) is a frustrating experience, one generally doesn't count these hours as entertainment.

At any rate, people should really be more critical before the purchase, instead of after.

If people actually found it frustrating they wouldn't play it. I suspect alot of these moaners do play it for hours. No-one is forcing them with a gun against their head to do so. Miles didn't frog march them to the counter at HMV and force them to buy it. They had a free gold demo aswell to see what they thought. Thus they must be getting some enjoyment out of the experience or they wouldn't continue playing. So for £25 it makes it £ per hour of gameplay a very good buy for most.

If people actually found it frustrating they wouldn't play it. I suspect alot of these moaners do play it for hours. No-one is forcing them with a gun against their head to do so. Miles didn't frog march them to the counter at HMV and force them to buy it. They had a free gold demo aswell to see what they though.Thus they must be getting some enjoyment out of the experience or they wouldn't continue playing. So for £25 it makes it £ per hour of gameplay a very good buy for most.

I bought FM2006 and FM2007 even though I was not all too impressed with their respective demo's. I quit playing both these games shortly after their patches did not bring what I expected from them.

I never moaned here or anywhere, as I knew it was my own dumb fault, but as an avid gamer on both console and pc, both in competition and casual, I believe I know a thing or two about hours of entertainment vs money spent. I've got games that I finished in 8 hours and never touched again, and there's a game that I have spent thousands of hours on, spread over 4 and half years now, which I'm still playing competitively. This last game I merely continued playing because I made many friends online that all still played that game. I don't mind playing the game, but it's getting together before and after the matches, and talking over voice comms that makes me want more. On the other hand there are single player games that can be finished in a day (or perhaps a weekend), that have left such a big mark on me, in one way or another, that I wouldn't want to trade anything for the experience of having played that for the first time.

These are two extreme cases, and clearly there are many, many more situations in the middle. You simply cannot count an experience in hours. Both expectation and immersion play too big a part in an experience to degrade it into a simple math formula.

I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

Bless.......

Bless.......

Haha! Brilliant . I love it how whenever a new FM is announced the FIFA Manager and CM fans drift over here to defend their chosen management sim... can't we all just get along

Why can't people have opinions either way without being labelled blinkered supporters or moaners?

It really is'nt hard to take a step back and be subjective. Why can't people accept that some people have a little trouble decyphering the sliders and their relativity to real life football without the need for childish remarks about reading posts that contain a fellow gamers opinions (not fact I must stress) and suchlike? Likewise, can't some accept that some of us have no trouble with the game and are happy with it?

Personally speaking, take away the ambiguity over the sliders and the match engine in general and I think the game is very, very good - far superior to CM and Fifa Manager. Its a step ahead overall and aslong as progress is kept and evolution of the game is constant it always will be.

SIGames openly accept constructive criticism. A lot of people are constructively criticising the way that the sliders are used, the relationship between the sliders and how they work and some are suggesting ways around it yet they are being flamed and are simply told thats its the tactics fault and that they should read the forums properly.

I think we need a little bit of understanding on both sides here.

Why can't people have opinions either way without being labelled blinkered supporters or moaners?

It really is'nt hard to take a step back and be subjective. Why can't people accept that some people have a little trouble decyphering the sliders and their relativity to real life football without the need for childish remarks about reading posts that contain a fellow gamers opinions (not fact I must stress) and suchlike? Likewise, can't some accept that some of us have no trouble with the game and are happy with it?

Personally speaking, take away the ambiguity over the sliders and the match engine in general and I think the game is very, very good - far superior to CM and Fifa Manager. Its a step ahead overall and aslong as progress is kept and evolution of the game is constant it always will be.

SIGames openly accept constructive criticism. A lot of people are constructively criticising the way that the sliders are used, the relationship between the sliders and how they work and some are suggesting ways around it yet they are being flamed and are simply told thats its the tactics fault and that they should read the forums properly.

I think we need a little bit of understanding on both sides here.

wwfan wrote a post (or was it part of a post?) describing why the ambiguity was not only a good thing, but vital to FM - if he happens upon this god awful thread again i'm sure he can describe the content of his post, as my memory is currently failing me. :confused:

Being subjective is obviously what we should all aim for, however when people can't figure out the differences between problems caused by them and problems caused by the game then no debate will ever be productive.

Hopefully the new "assman" feature will help those people unwilling/unable to see the faults within their tactic, team, team talks etc etc etc and cut out the majority of pointless moans like this.

If there's nothing wrong with the tactic engine, then how come I can't come up with one that's capable of getting me even a mid-table position with a decent team? Am I really that stupid? Don't my 30 years of watching football count for something?

The tactics engine should be written so that it's as close to what a manager might say in real life. Get rid of the sliders and it'd be a start. And give the players some sort of football common sense. If the opposition suddenly push 4 or 5 upfront the side themselves should do something about it, rather than stand there looking stupid.

I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

If you don't like the game or its fans why are you even on these forums?

I find it funny that one of the most influential guys in the scene for criticising the engine (one of the foremost proponents of getting rid of arrows and increasing realism in the engine) is constantly called a fanboy and a "blind supporter" of the game.

The biggest problem I've seen has been the inability of some to really see what's going on on the pitch. They interpret the game completely differently to wwfan, myself & al.

What some see as "13 shots on target" others see as 13 shots from range. What others see as a 5' 6" player outjumping a 6' 7" centre back, others see as a nippy striker getting in front of the defender to nod it in. What some see as domination, others see as inefficient use of possession.

Some of the best posters in this place are reformed "moaners". The ones that listen and apply what they learn tend to be the biggest supporters of the game, over time.

As with everything, if you blame yourself when things go wrong, you try to learn and do something new. If you blame the computer, there's no point in playing, since you'll never get any better.

If there's nothing wrong with the tactic engine...

Yeah, that's exactly what we're saying. Jesus, is it any wonder these arguments go nowhere... ffs...

ched,

There are a fair few people on the forums who are all to willing to blame themselves, their teamtalks and their tactics for their own failings with the game. I include myself in that bracket. Those that don't are'nt worth recognising or replying to. Thats not the argument I have.

The argument I have is that i've spent hours playing the game, tweaking this that and god knows what...referred back to "guru's" like wwfan, isuckatfm, buxton (in the old days), Ackter, Cleon, rashidi. You name them, i've read their theories....and took it all on board. I still struggle because when push comes to shove, all of the above gurus have their own opinions on what the match engine is, how the sliders work and so on. Some of their theories contradict each others and some of their theories tie in with what each other are saying. Its confusing to say the least. Some of the theories are fantastic, but you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about.

SI themselves say they want the game to be as realistic as possible. We all do...

Using sliders with a scale of 1 to 20 is not realism IMHO....as i've pointed out in a previous post above. Managers IRL give simple instructions as to what they want a player to do. Claude Makelele would NOT have gone out on the pitch with Mourinho's instructions of 10/20 for mentality, closing down 17/20, creative freedom 4/20 etc. He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four, don't venture forward too much, close anyone down that comes into his Zone and keep things simple in posession.

Its difficult to translate what you want a player to do into "sliders" - since there are varying degrees of mentality, varying degrees of Creative Freedom aswell as a hidden link between all of them. For me, you either want a player to sit in his position, let him take his choice given the situation, or attack at will. You either want him to try tricks or you don't etc. You either want him to press the ball or you don't. You get the picture.

I think there is a better way and a simpler way to doing this. Being simpler to understand and simpler to produce a tactic that you want does'nt have to mean the game is "easier" - which is a lot of peoples' fears.

Stripey

Saying "x wouldn't be given the instruction have 10/20 mentality" is utterly irrelevant.

The purpose of the 0-20 sliders is not to give each player 0-20 possibilities of mentality - it's so you can have a variation in overall fmt - let me explain;

Would you argue that it would be realistic to have 5 levels of mentality? Essentially Ultra def, def, normal, attacking and ultra attacking?

I'll assume your answer is yes - if this was reflected in FM then what you would get is one useful setting for each position. E.g. GK would be ultra def, CB would be def etc etc etc

What 0-20 allows is 4 times as many settings per position. Hence, in my attacking fmt my cb may have a mentality of 10, whilct in a def fmt my CB may have a mentality of 7 - what this allows is to keep a tight fmt (i.e. no more than 2 mentality steps btw psotions) and allow some variation in overall team mentality.

The only other way i can see this being incorporated is if you had individual mentality and then had team mentality act as a modifier.

*this applys to all sliders - it just allows positional variation and team variation - and for this reason a 0-20 (or -10 to +10 if you prefer) scale is essential.

I can fully appreciate where you're coming from, but the game as it stands is much more realistic because of the sliders.

As to your point:

"...you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about."

Sitting for hours and hours considering tactics is, imo, exactly what a real life manager should and probably does do, and hence is entirely realistic. Someone said some time ago that if the game becomes perfectly realistic (which is what SI aim to do) then it will cease to be fun, let's be honest - how many real life managers look like they enjoy themselves all the time? People ask for realistic, but then complain when they have to change their tactic 6 times a game - unfortunately, whilst it may not be immediately apparent, if you watch just an individual player in a RL match and consider what instructions he's given, it is entirely realistic to expect to have to tweak. A lot, lol.

Now, hopefully the assman feature in FM09 will act as a middle man, between people such as myself, who are happy with how the game works and grasp (or think we do!) what's going on, and others who would prefer something a little simpler. Fingers crossed

Serpico

*shrug*

Sorry, i just don't know. My formation was built based on how a wanted my team to play and how they could play - after watching 3-4 matches in full length i found some problems, but now it works perfectly, i'm not sure why you haven't had a similar degree of success.

I've said all i need to about sliders, but i do fully agree that more common sense is essential - too many times i've seen players running back into position regardless of whether it would make sense to do so.

Sitting for hours and hours considering tactics is, imo, exactly what a real life manager should and probably does do, and hence is entirely realistic. Someone said some time ago that if the game becomes perfectly realistic (which is what SI aim to do) then it will cease to be fun, let's be honest - how many real life managers look like they enjoy themselves all the time? People ask for realistic, but then complain when they have to change their tactic 6 times a game - unfortunately, whilst it may not be immediately apparent, if you watch just an individual player in a RL match and consider what instructions he's given, it is entirely realistic to expect to have to tweak. A lot, lol.

Colin Warnock? You could add Jose too...

Next time I watch a match, I'll see how many times the coaches leave the dugouts. That should tell us a realistic number of times to tweak our tactics

Next time I watch a match, I'll see how many times the coaches leave the dugouts. That should tell us a realistic number of times to tweak our tactics

Exactly.

If people considered that every time a manager started yelling at players waving his hands he actually meant "reduce mentality by 2, reduce fwd runs" ect then people would realise that there is a real life precedent for this kind of micro management - whether it's fun or not is another matter entirely.

NB: is Colin Warnock, Neil Warnock in disguise? Or are there more warnocks that i'm not aware of

ched,

All i'll say to that is thanks for the considered response. I don't agree with it and part of your post proves my point about complexity, but we would be going round in circles repeating ourselves for ever and a day if we decided to carry on the discussion per se.

If you want to get a further handle on my side of the argument, then go to you local professional teams training ground. Given your locality in your profile, i'll assume it is Tranmere Rovers. Take a look at what they do towards the end of the week when they are working on team shape and tactics for the upcoming weekends game.

I go to my local team whenever i'm off work (Stoke City) and listen to what the manager is saying when he's coaching his team. Terms such as "Don't empty the midfield", "Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options"(when defending), "Centre halves stop splitting and get closer together", "Big targetman drop deep to give the other forward space to run and work the angles" etc etc

Go along for yourself, look at what they're doing, look at the effect of the instructions and try and relate it to sliders when you get back home.

"Good Luck"

I thought by now we'd all accepted the engine in 08 had it's fair share of problems and was widely considered a disappointment, at least before the last patch, which is still far from perfect

Let's just look to the future and cross our fingers that 09 will solve most, if not all of the problems mentioned in this thread. If this guy wants to skip it, then that's his problem. Although I'd bet my house on it that he does actually give it a try

Sven din lille kost

Given your locality in your profile, i'll assume it is Tranmere Rovers. Take a look at what they do towards the end of the week when they are working on team shape and tactics for the upcoming weekends game.

As far as i'm aware "shape" and "tactics" are beyond tranmere

There's an intersting debate here over what should be covered in training rather than in-match tactics - i'll wait until i've played 09 and produce something then, maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised after i've played it

Sven din lille kost

What on earth?

The way I look at sliders is this, and I would like to use the example already posted.

Claude Makelele

He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four...

don't venture forward too much...

close anyone down that comes into his Zone...

keep things simple in posession.

So, you want... low mentality. As Ched says, if we have 5 settings for each, I'm going to go with 8 for mentality. Which covers venturing forward. Close down actively? I'll go for 16 (using the same system). And keep things simple? I'll go for 8 again.

So...

Claude Makelele

Mentality - 8 (2/5)

Closing Down - 16 (4/5)

Creative Freedom - 8 (2/5)

Hmm. Doesn't seem to be working, Claude. You're still pushed up too far. But if I go down to 1/5, you'll be too deep. I only want you slightly more reserved going forward. I'll knock it down to 6. Also, you're not closing down enough, but if I put you on full you wander too much. I'll put it up to 18. And, you don't seem to be looking for good passes. I don't want you to wander though, so I'll knock the creative freedom up to 8.

That's what the sliders do - they give you subtelty from basic instructions.

Interestingly, the "skills" that you learn on FML tend to only give you a certain amount of slider positions. At the most basic level, you only get around half a dozen notches. So it's more than possible to have a very basic setup. The sliders allow you to be a rough or as precise as you want. Providing your instructions remain logical, you should be able to whip up a decent tactic.

I set up my tactics EXACTLY like this. Though my settings are usually held at 0, 5, 10, 15, 20. Then a move up or down a couple of clicks to hone them. Exactly as a real manager would. "You're slightly off, do a bit more of this!"

What we should have, in my opinion, is more "words" accomponying the sliders. So, for mentality, it should start, Defensive then when you move beyond 5 it could go to Cautious then beyond 10 to neutral, beyond 15 to attacking, or something of that ilk. That would make it clearer about the subtleties, and make it easier to just say to someone "oh, put it on the first notch of attacking".

Without sliders, I don't see how this subtlety can be put across. Turn it all into "verbal" instructions and check boxes and you wouldn't be able to read the screen for all the confusing instructions plastered all over the place.

Ched/Millie

Can you download your tactics as I would like to test them.

Thanks

Sven din lille kost

That's class - !

You will say that now but by the time the FM 09 Demo comes out you'll change your mind!......I can't wait for FM 09!

But i do understand your questions....I get a disallowed goal every 2 games

Its true some things seem unreal but I often ask are they unreal or just giving you a scenario to play out for that season, I mean given that sometimes football is about luck as well as how well a team plays etc. and teams in real do go through bad runs through a bit of bad luck dodgy ref decision, disallowed goal etc. sometimes when your lucks out everything goes against you and goes against you almost every game and if this happens in the game people are quick to say it must be a bug etc.

I Think sometimes every FM player wants to win or we wouldnt be football fans but in real life only a few can suceed and as in real life and the game it takes time, and luck to get to where you want to be.

Hold the faith brothers oh and now sisters(FM 09) SI constantly deliver in my book and when things arn't right they recognise it and address things ASAP and if they can patch the game before the next release which is more than any other games developer ever does these days.

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

Mate, I have been buying these games for like ever (believe you me) and I too have expressed my views all to often about the positives and negatives about all of them expect 01/02 but one thing one cannot argue with is SI do provide a demo which is an excellent way to get a look at game "prior to purchase". Furthermore, SI do support their games with patches and support via the forum. On one negative note, I too get annoyed when people simply reply with "it's your tactics" that argument has been put forward so many times and sometimes I feel is just an easy option out, rather than exploring other options, all games have problems and I suspect FM is no different.

My view (if you want to take it) is when the demo comes out, play it and make up your mind then.

Cheers all

When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined.

Whatever else, I think this is valuable feedback.

Some feel this way. Some feel in control. Some don't feel in control but are happy. Some feel in control but are likely mistaken.

I do think the tactics forum, taken as a whole, is a testament to how many people would enjoy more of a sense of control and/or understanding. You look at the kind of threads posted and the kind of questions asked, and I find it difficult to conclude: "Everything is fine. This is the way we want it."

I'll continue to advocate for a better tactics system until it seems that the kind of discussions going on reflect satisfaction and gradual mastery. Until then I think posts like this are really good. Maybe once we get past the subjective experience of "I don't feel in control" and into the evidence and reasons given we can have some debate, but to discard the expressed desire for more control or understanding by focusing on faulty conclusions or misunderstandings will never debase the fact that the guy feels the way he does, and isn't alone.

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

i totally agree with everything youve said. the problem i have is, im addicted to this flawed game. i have to play it because there is nothing else better. what else is there?