FM09 - Will it be worth it

[wwfan]

This thread sums up the problem with the whole tactics/engine debate quite nicely. My answer to the OP was made with my tongue firmly wedged in my cheek. The correct answer to his complaints is 'it's your tactics'. I wrote it fully aware that it would provoke some reaction from certain people and wasn't too surprised with a couple of the names that popped out of the wooding shed. The point I was trying to make was that a considered answer, apart from being far too long and just repeating things I have said ad infinitum in the tactics forum, would be totally ignored by someone who emotes in the manner of the OP. A 'help me' plea in the tatics forum from a user having similar issues ended with my being able to largely solve his problems in three posts, but he was accepting that the faults lay partially within himself rather than fully with the game. Whilst it is my pleasure to help someone like that, I have no time or sympathy for ill-informed rants of the nature of the OP. A blinkered mindset gets a blinkered response.

More constructive posts such as those made by Smac and Stripey invariably get my attention and I try to debate issues raised in that manner. The ambiguity issue is one we have debated at a pretty decent level. I believe that Smac and I will never quite meet in the midddle as I think I have a higher degree of tolerance for ambiguity than he does and believe that real life management is a highly ambiguous task, which should be replicated in FM. That doesn't stop me from appreciating what he is saying and from accepting that there are problems with the ambiguity of how the ME interpets certain tactical instruction. Personally, I believe the overriding cause of the majority of user problems with the ME is arrows (although the over-performace of narrow, multi-strata tactics is also to blame). I also think that the FML engine largely overcomes these issues, which should give you all great hope for the FM09 one. The reason it has done so is because many of the blinkered fanboys have provided enough constructive criticism of how it played to get fundamental ME issues altered.

For those that are questioning the ME and tactical sliders' abilites to mirror real life instructions, what I would like to ask is how many of the instructions you try to use are replicated in real life? If there is one use of an arrow that a real life manager wouldn't use (i.e. the MC to FC of Diablo, or, in fact, the AMC to FC common in many current tactics) then the argument that the ME fails to replicate your 'real life interpretation' of tactics falls on its face. It splinters the engine and warps its statistics. The more you deviate from real life instructions, the worse the game will perform. If, however, you only use patterns that the AI employs, you then have a possibility of entering a realistically simulated world in which neither side has an innate and unfair advantage over the other. From there on in, in general, it is a matter of translation:

Don't empty the midfield: ensure one MC has FWRs rarely, lowish mentality, highish CD so he sits deep when in possession but closes down space as soon as the opposition tries a quick counter

Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options (when defending): OI the FB with close down and show onto foot

Centre halves stop splitting and get closer together: narrow width, ensure they are man-tight marking (not getting pulled wider by a winger entering the edges of their zone),

Big targetman drop deep to give the other forward space to run and work the angles: lower mentality than his strike partner and no FWRs

There are also issues with people simply offering opinion as fact, as with this statement:

As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.

This might be one person's opinion of how tactics should look, but it has counter-arguments. In my attacking tactics I always use a highish mentality and high CD for my DCs. Why? Because I play with a very high d-line and it seems illogical to position my DCs on the half-way line and then tell them to close down only when the ball gets to their own area. As I perceive it, this will mean they are back tracking at pace against a counter attack, which will leave acres of space for attackers to exploit. So, I try to have them quickly win the ball high up the pitch and then restart the attack = high d-line, high CD, normal-heavy tackling, attacking mentality, TTBs mixed. I am always happy to argue my interpretation, but to have someone assume it is illogical without reasons and then offer it as proof ... well, is there any wonder said person struggles?

Unlike Smac, I feel totally in control of pretty much every match. I know why I have won, drawn or lost. There are also enough other people who contribute to and use variations of my playing philosophy that feel the same thing to suggest that it is not illusory. Every now and then I have an inexplicable half, but they are few and far between. I also don't win every match and every competition, although I have a pretty good record. I also only play 4-4-2. It is plenty possible. There are arguments that it might be too hard, but that is a different story. However, for those that simply fail to engage on the 'ME is flawed but it is possible to replicate real world instructions in it with a bit of thought' level and take binary positions, this argument never even enters the equation.

[Smac]

Nice post wwfan.

The only thing I'd take issue with is

The correct answer to his complaints is 'it's your tactics'.

in that there is a different way to look at it as:

Person has subjective experience of impotence or confusion with the tactics system or ME.

Person tries to explain this experience with evidence.

Some of the theorizing or evidence is weak. Perhaps most. But the experience is still valid.

For me a 'correct' response is to examine expectations and acknowledge the confusion. Browbeating someone for the rationalizations they use may be satisfying but is inherently unproductive. Whereas soliciting their participation in understanding their experience and perhaps working to improve it could produce results, as in the recent tactical 'help' thread from last week. Usually you do try to help, as do others. But there is sometimes an attitude of invalidation towards 'lesser players' frustration that comes off as a bit hostile, if not defensive.

Though I suppose to accuse you of trolling would be a little hypocritical of me! And I must admit, his conclusions are pretty 'wrong', objectively. Although again, subjectively they seem to make sense to me: If I'm continually frustrated with a voluntary thing like a game, quitting is a pretty decent response!

One other thing:

Unlike Smac, I feel totally in control of pretty much every match. I know why I have won, drawn or lost.

In the larger picture, it doesn't really matter whether you or I feel in control though, right? We're just two guys. What about everyone else? I mean, I'm sure the OP is glad there are some people who are pretty confident on the ball. It means there is hope. But its interesting that the bulk of posts in any given "I'm confused and frustrated" thread fail to express that this is quite a common experience for FM players. I wonder why that is?

As you've said numerous times over the years: If someone doesn't want to take the time to follow the advice given, or to really study the matches, but instead decides he's put enough into the game already, there's nothing to be done. His choice, but might be symptomatic of a frustrating and confusing interface just as much as a evidence for a shallow and impatient player. I do find it interesting that there are so many replies to someone who's already decided he's had enough. Or maybe the fact that he's posted means he hasn't had enough?

[knap]

How many tmes do you have to ask winger to close down, illogical to also use OIs as well, and OIs should be a main option not set up every game.

When a centre half leaves his forward to tackle a winger already tight marked by FB, allowing an AI goal to follow you begin to wonder. Combined with narrow is good for defence and wide attack then the AI can switch tactics every few seconds and create this perfect tactic.

Lower mentality is positional not a drop deep instruction, not explained in handbook. If a TM drops deep do you not want him to run fwd, again illogical. As well as tight man mark to hang on defender shoulder, compared to trying to lose marker and try to beat offside trap.

Years of studying the match engine is not available to all let alone having to deal with unrealistic constant changing of tactics by AI.

There is no user instruction that a certain farrow will exploit ME and distort results.

Most that post "its you tactics" do not even suggest why or ask what tactics are being used.

Even the corner cheat is basic flawed testing.

I have similar issues to OP but prepared to learn rather than call foul.

[wwfan]

Person has subjective experience of impotence or confusion with the tactics system or ME.

Person tries to explain this experience with evidence.

Some of the theorizing or evidence is weak. Perhaps most. But the experience is still valid.

I'm not arguing that the experience isn't valid. I'm arguing that the conclusions are (AI works out your tactic thus invalidating what should be a good tactic, game is a waste of money, SI should be ashamed). There is a wealth of evidence illustrating how all of his experiences can be explained and countered.

I still firmly believe that it is user exploitation of the tactical system through 'creative' deployment of arrows and/or working out you get an unrealistic statistical advantage by using a multi-strata/narrow/attacking formation is what causes most of the angst. The ME cannot handle all the weird arrows in statistical terms but can easily defend most of the chances it creates, as they aren't very good. Same with the narrow formations. They can keep possession and can generate a huge number of shots, but 95%+ are from long range or hit in a crowded box. If you rely on match stats to read the game, you will get hugely frustrated. However, if you learn to read the 2d, then you can see how and why you need to change things. Dealing with both the above should reduce the ambiguity of tactical instruction. The arrows are gone so that is solved. Narrow formations also get marked much realistically by wide ones, so the possession/shot count they generated is much better, although in the FML engine, not 100% solved. However, the FML ME is a fantastic starting point for FM09 and I'm hoping for even greater improvements in this direction.

With regards to knap, one man's logic is another man's fallacy. I don't always use OI to target the opposing FBs, but when they are causing problems by overlapping and getting forward, I want the winger to pay specific attention to them and keep my FB on the winger. So I change instructions to deal with the situation. If I am dominating, I don't need to.

Lower mentality combined with no FWRs makes an FC drop deeper. Adding free role and high CF to the right FCd can also turn him into a hugely effective weapon. It may not be explained like this in the manual but it works. It is also logical in my opinion.

There is no user instruction about how certain farrows disrupt the engine because we hadn't debated it until FML testing. However, not only are they illogical commands (arrows and FWRs should simply be the same thing) but they are used in unrealistic ways. How many managers have ever told their MC to always be a third forward when in possession and always be a midfielder when defending. None. Yet the ME allows it and many people design tactics doing it. The same people are then the first to complain that the ME can't replicate proper football. Anyway, it will be a moot point soon enough as post-FML there will be no arrows in tactics.

[knap]

multi-strata/ Basic AI 442

narrow/attacking formation - as an example Kimz is neither

AI can change tactics too often to generate an overlapping FB or Defensive FB- this leads to overuse of OIs. rather than specific to a highlighted danger man, but I cannot understand why you asking a player to close down twice, tight mark maybe, but this is available without using OIs.

As I tend to use a lone striker with mxd fw runs and attacking mentality my observation is that he drops deep anyway.

Although I like the play with free roles it tends to in result terms make the tactic weaker.

There is also confusion with regard to free role player attribute as to how effective a free role is without this attribute.

A long farrow is OK for a MR/L but not MC. Many MCs get fwd into box ie Lampard. Also the AI are allowed an AMC barrowed to DM.

As I understand Diablo (before my time with FM) this farrow caused a problem so should have been considered for FM08, probably was and the problem coded out of game rather than remove farrows, however long carrows were probably new.

As a heavily farrowed tactic tends to outscore and produce many chances it appears that a lot of chances are missed. If the same type of chances one game produce many goals then logical this should be same in other games bar a few, yet too often the strikers have an offday or offsides/fouls. You cannot read the AI 424 just anticipate (OP did not mention reading 2d), but the AI are masters of changing tactics and formation and this should not be a test of users reflexes to hit pause.

Having been a die hard 442 tactic only but kept having berbs not scoring for 40hrs first resorted to a carrow tactic (Cleons) then Kimz. So probably like many users pushed into angst and odd happenings on pitch just to get some decent results.

However we still do not know what type of tactic the OP is using to cause this angst, probably not Kimz as he would be winning.

[kiwityke]

I find it funny that one of the most influential guys in the scene for criticising the engine (one of the foremost proponents of getting rid of arrows and increasing realism in the engine) is constantly called a fanboy and a "blind supporter" of the game.

The biggest problem I've seen has been the inability of some to really see what's going on on the pitch. They interpret the game completely differently to wwfan, myself & al.

What some see as "13 shots on target" others see as 13 shots from range. What others see as a 5' 6" player outjumping a 6' 7" centre back, others see as a nippy striker getting in front of the defender to nod it in. What some see as domination, others see as inefficient use of possession.

Some of the best posters in this place are reformed "moaners". The ones that listen and apply what they learn tend to be the biggest supporters of the game, over time.

As with everything, if you blame yourself when things go wrong, you try to learn and do something new. If you blame the computer, there's no point in playing, since you'll never get any better.

I must admit to being one of these people. I listened to what Ched, Amaroq and others said. Took that advice and looked at the match engine in a new way, guess what I now win most games I should 4 and 5 to nil (I am talking about the dominate match have 20 shots to one scenarios here).

This was after I had spent literally months being frustrated to hell with the match engine, I even gave up playing the game for a while.

What I do find frustrating is sometimes the cause of your tactical problem is so obscure its very difficult to discover what the problem is, hopefully the new assistant manager feature will solve this.

[StripeySCFC]

Thanks for taking the time to reply millie/wwfan.

When you put it down on the screen like that it all seems a lot more clearer and a lot more sensical. The difficulty in the first place is decyphering that information and translating it into sliders!

Anyhow, all this is irrelavant, since last night I embarked on my best ever run in the game (6 straight wins in League Two utilising some simple tactical instructions) - almost 12 months after initial release!

Only two months until I have to start learning again!

[Ryknow]

FM07 owned Fm08 but Fm08 is still a decent game. As said above half of your statements are to do with your tatics, take some time and adjust them and Im sure your team will play differently. Also make sure you have the new patches.

[andyinuk]

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

i always wonder how a game company can rob you when you willingly walked into a shop and bought the game.

[wwfan]

multi-strata/ Basic AI 442

3 strata is the minimum. 4-5 strata are the ones that tend to dominate possession no matter the holistic quality of the tactic.

narrow/attacking formation - as an example Kimz is neither

True, but you can't argue it doesn't have carrows!!

AI can change tactics too often to generate an overlapping FB or Defensive FB- this leads to overuse of OIs. rather than specific to a highlighted danger man, but I cannot understand why you asking a player to close down twice, tight mark maybe, but this is available without using OIs.

I rarely start a match with OIs set (outside of playing the 4-1-2-1-2 when I always CD/wrong foot the FBs, CD the DMC and Tight Mark the AMC). However, if you find that the wingers are not doing the job you want them to, translating Smiley's explicit statement 'Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options (when defending)' to 'wingers OI and wrong foot the FB' works

As I tend to use a lone striker with mxd fw runs and attacking mentality my observation is that he drops deep anyway.

Although I like the play with free roles it tends to in result terms make the tactic weaker.

There is also confusion with regard to free role player attribute as to how effective a free role is without this attribute.

I tend to believe that free roles become more and more vital when playing against teams that sit back and park the bus. kimz may make them irrelevant but they are very important at higher levels when using a standard attacking 4-4-2. They improve the tactic as players try harder to find space.

A long farrow is OK for a MR/L but not MC. Many MCs get fwd into box ie Lampard. Also the AI are allowed an AMC barrowed to DM.

As I understand Diablo (before my time with FM) this farrow caused a problem so should have been considered for FM08, probably was and the problem coded out of game rather than remove farrows, however long carrows were probably new.

The problem is that although wingers consistently get behind the FB, the MC does it much less often, hence a long farrow being very unrealistic. It was also used to exploit the marking gap between the MCs. In reality it just wouldn't happen. The farrowed AMC to FC also made pretty much every AMC play like a world beater, when it is actually a very specialist position.

As a heavily farrowed tactic tends to outscore and produce many chances it appears that a lot of chances are missed. If the same type of chances one game produce many goals then logical this should be same in other games bar a few, yet too often the strikers have an offday or offsides/fouls. You cannot read the AI 424 just anticipate (OP did not mention reading 2d), but the AI are masters of changing tactics and formation and this should not be a test of users reflexes to hit pause.

The strikers have an offday becasue of the chance type that is being constantly created. From the pkms I have watched, if the carrow tactic scores early, then it will win at a canter as the other team has to start pushing up and the carrows exploit the space left behind. If it doesn't it will struggle, players will get worn out and the other team will usually have one or two quality scoring chances against a tired and morale-sapped side in the last 20 mins.

Having been a die hard 442 tactic only but kept having berbs not scoring for 40hrs first resorted to a carrow tactic (Cleons) then Kimz. So probably like many users pushed into angst and odd happenings on pitch just to get some decent results.

However we still do not know what type of tactic the OP is using to cause this angst, probably not Kimz as he would be winning.

What these tactics do, and Cleon will be the first to admit, is ensure that the AI is not on a level playing field as the user tactic is doing something the AI tactic was not designed to cope with. The last three versions of FM have split the user base into those who created weird and whacky exploitive tactics (which were hugely creative and massively useful for ME evolution) and those who developed playing systems so they could use standard formation types. The switch between one mindset and the other is a tough one (I know from hard experience - my first posts on these forums were hugely critical of the FM06 engine as it totally challenged everything I thought I knew about playing FM). I also know that making the switch is worth it as the joy you experience from knowing you have beaten the ME on its own terms surpasses anything achieved by loading up exploitive tactic A and pressing continue.

In each version it has become harder and harder to be part of type one, as the engine becomes more adept at dealing with the exploitive nature of these tactics. It actually causes huge angst to remain in the 'there must be a super tactic to beat all' camp, but people seem to be hard coded into that way of playing. That is where the OP is. FM is slowly evolving away from that playing methodology. Even Cleon is using a 4-4-2 in FML. Personally, I think FM09 will be the version that forces people into the second camp. It will also generate a lot of pain and angst while people adapt, but once they do more and more people will see and appreciate exactly how good the ME actually is.

[BigFW]

Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers

2. Far too many chances wasted

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat

6. Far too many goals disallowed

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

I can understand the frustration,certainly with FM08, but having read articles by wwfan and cleon et al a lot can be improved. I'v been a die hard fan since 1994 and i think i've vented my fury at the screen at FM2008 more than any other release.

In fact I'm currently 19 games into the season, won 3 drawn 11 lost 5. Drawn 11! mostly been up by 1 or 2 goals only for the oppostion to have a monster last 20 mins! I know..Its my tactics, but it still frustrates. I'm not a fan of drastically chopping and changing tactics even though I know need to react to the AI.

As for FM2009 this has got me very excited. The engine from FML, which I hear is much better, and a nice 3D fron end for eye candy. You need to get it..end of.

[Nomis07]

Well I bought FM08 for £19 and have got over 9 months of gaming out of it, so it was definately worth the money despite it's obvious errors. Similarly FM09 will be worth the money because of the amount of gaming time i'll get out of it for £20-£30, a pack of cigarettes costs over £5 and lasts me a day, so generally FM is well worth it. I'll definately be buying it.

[Guest hayta]

i share many of the complaint issues myself, every single one of them i can say. but they don't keep me away from buying or playing the game. yes, i am terribly addicted...

there are two main issues which i hope will be improving in 09;

one is transfer issues, which is already announced as "changed radically"... looking forward to that. because offering valuable players to clubs for -0- and no interest shown was out of this planet! also enquiries to players whom i already set an asking price was terribly annoying. more annoying was it was done by the same club over and over again...

the second one is ridiculous game stats not reflected by the scoresheet. ok it so happens in real life too but how many times? how many times in a season the favorites get beaten by the underdogs while stats sheet show dominance as hell. once? twice? ten times perhaps?? i don't think so.

and to those who blame it on the tactics. i really would love to witness your expertise on those tactics of yours. really...

[Guest hayta]

ched,

There are a fair few people on the forums who are all to willing to blame themselves, their teamtalks and their tactics for their own failings with the game. I include myself in that bracket. Those that don't are'nt worth recognising or replying to. Thats not the argument I have.

The argument I have is that i've spent hours playing the game, tweaking this that and god knows what...referred back to "guru's" like wwfan, isuckatfm, buxton (in the old days), Ackter, Cleon, rashidi. You name them, i've read their theories....and took it all on board. I still struggle because when push comes to shove, all of the above gurus have their own opinions on what the match engine is, how the sliders work and so on. Some of their theories contradict each others and some of their theories tie in with what each other are saying. Its confusing to say the least. Some of the theories are fantastic, but you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about.

SI themselves say they want the game to be as realistic as possible. We all do...

Using sliders with a scale of 1 to 20 is not realism IMHO....as i've pointed out in a previous post above. Managers IRL give simple instructions as to what they want a player to do. Claude Makelele would NOT have gone out on the pitch with Mourinho's instructions of 10/20 for mentality, closing down 17/20, creative freedom 4/20 etc. He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four, don't venture forward too much, close anyone down that comes into his Zone and keep things simple in posession.

Its difficult to translate what you want a player to do into "sliders" - since there are varying degrees of mentality, varying degrees of Creative Freedom aswell as a hidden link between all of them. For me, you either want a player to sit in his position, let him take his choice given the situation, or attack at will. You either want him to try tricks or you don't etc. You either want him to press the ball or you don't. You get the picture.

I think there is a better way and a simpler way to doing this. Being simpler to understand and simpler to produce a tactic that you want does'nt have to mean the game is "easier" - which is a lot of peoples' fears.

if there was reputation posting in this very forums like some others, i would have given it here.

people playing the game since old CM days upto now, loyally, are being treated like martians, like people who do not have the slightest idea about football, or tactics, or football manager series and its tactical issues. which is ugly...

i've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, in a country which is paradise for pirate gaming this is the only game that i purchase the original. i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game. either it changed in an unreasonable way that its older residents feel out of place, or we are all out of fashion in a fashionable way.

[carboreeta]

I want to play a football management sim, the best by far is FM, so i will buy it every year play it lots scream abuse and cheat at the AI even though i knwo there is no point, over the year I will go from being mediocre to finally acheiving success, through a process of reading the tactic psoting T&T etc, other peoples experiences/tactics etc and my own failings aor success, this will now be repeated with FM2009 when i just about have this FM2008 down pat, anyone for bi yearly releases

The alternative to the above, buy another football sim that is inferior in every way but you may not see any issues with because it is not very complex or stop playing Football mangement sims (never).

I love the CM/FM series it always has had issues it always will but they never get in the way of playing/enjoying the game - ok the closing down thing before 1st patch in FM2008 was close

[Millie]

I've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, in a country which is paradise for pirate gaming this is the only game that i purchase the original. i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game. either it changed in an unreasonable way that its older residents feel out of place, or we are all out of fashion in a fashionable way.

Herein my lie your problem. You're not playing CM01/02 anymore.

[Themistofelis]

After the release you can always read all negative posts and consider if you can stand playing a game with so many (if any) annoying features .

Pre-judging anything in life is not wise

I do agree it's your tactics - now go and read 6.000.000 posts on how to play the game

[Ched]

i've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game.

Neither

The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

[vladislav19]

The game should be hard, so don't consider the fact you cant get afc wimbledon up the table an unrealistic element. And while the strong bellyaching tone of the original poster isn't terribly constructive, there is nothing more destructive than the old 'it's not the game, it's you' nugget. It implies the game is perfect and those who complain are merely poorly coordinated bumpkins.

Match engine has moved on, transfers have moved on, thus the complaints listed here are outdated. But wwfan's snarky response isn't up to the standards we should expect of Mods.

[Nomis07]

The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

Yes, gone are the days of playing 4-4-2 in CM2 or 3-5-2 in CM3 and achieving instant success, regardless of team, players or team/player instructions I think the harder it gets the more addictive it gets, although 4-2-3-1 with a top European side is still pretty easy.

[Fernando Nano]

I am curious to see how the media interaction will help this game. I will be amazed if I start playing in the Conference and have to attend press conferences. As far as I know this does not happen in real life. And the media influence will NEVER be higher than the one of a manager, so I was really hoping for a serious improvement of the player/manager relationship. Nothing has been released to ease my concernes. I feel dissapionted.

[wwfan]

If it hadn't been the same tired old arguments that have been trotted out without stop for the past 22 months I'd have been far more constructive, as I was later in the post. I decided to attempt levity instead, taking the 'it's your tactics' response to a ridiculous level. My reading of the situation was the OP would vent and leave, so any reply above the level of 'it's your tactics' would be wasting my time and my pixelated breath. As the OP hasn't revisited since it seems I might have been right in my evaluation of the situation.

However, since then I have explained in a reasonable amount of detail how people might be able to translate tactical issues into ME commands and outlined why the old FM approaches don't work any more. Hardly unhelpful.

[Guest hayta]

Herein my lie your problem. You're not playing CM01/02 anymore.

i have not played cm01-02, then lost all my interest in soccer and manager games and came back in on fm08... i played every single game in between, from the launch day of the former until the launch day of the latter... i thought i made it quite clear on that one...? seems like i did not...

i am not new to this game, the point is that. and fm08 was the toughest one, and the most ridiculous one too...

[Guest hayta]

Neither

The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

ched, i really did try mate... tried my classics, tried other people's classics... discovered, invited new things... played with a dm, played without one, tried to push all the game to opposition, sat down on my own area and ran for counters... anything...

and it is not that i totally agree with the topic's first post, that "i won't buy 09"... no way, i definitely will buy it and play it... i cannot even wait for the demo to come already!

but this game really had in-game playability issues. those who managed to overcome those by tweaking sliders are treating the others in an insensible way, that is annoying.

[knap]

wwfan

Thanks for taking your time to answer.

The AI442 has a MC barrow and MR/L farrow this is 5 strata in my book.

Kimz V1 does not have a single carrow and is the most popular. It does have long farrows on FBs.

Do we have a tips page on TTF for show onto foot?

I have looked at AMC farrow to FC tactics and IMO improved them by removing farrow and sarrows (available for downlod but does have carrows). I find the the AI sarrowed with AMC probably the AI also using this exploit.

If you let a tactic run without change you will be surprised how often the team makes a late goal comeback. At times you need to trust tactic and style of play.

Free roles and a little creative freedom is helpful for home tactic. My problem is that removing these for away games changes style of play and the in game hint advises against this. However I now have a relialbe tactic using these aspects but still requires testing.

The AI has the advantage re constant tactic change so I'm happy to try an exploit the ME.

If in FM09 we all end up playing 442 it may be a retro step as a game compared to more inventive tactics. However unlike OP I am looking forward to FM09.

Any thoughts on free role attribute?

[Deathcab for Cutie]

Considering there is always a demo before each release, you're pretty stupid to say "thats it I'm not buying your games anymore since I didn't like the last one". Try the demo, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, don't. But you can't say that you won't like the next one without playing it... especially since it's the FM game with the most testing ever of the match engine via FML garnering loads of feedback

i think you are pretty stupid for calling him stupid.

[Ched]

those who managed to overcome those by tweaking sliders are treating the others in an insensible way, that is annoying.

As wwfan pointed out, the only people that get treated in an "insensible" way are those who pass the buck, and just accuse the game of cheating etc. If someone says "what am i doing wrong?" I (as well as numerous others)will often go out of our way to help and assist those who are having trouble.

The quality of our suggestions may vary though (probably best to ignore me and listen to wwfan lol)

fm08 was the toughest one, and the most ridiculous one too

This is the issue many people are having - they can't figure out why FM08 is different (i personally didn't think it was that different to 07, in fact my fmt is essentially the same, but that's for another thread.)

I'm not saying you haven't tried, just that you haven't hit on a workable tactic yet - trust me, the game is supposed to be the hardest yet - and will hopefully continue to get harder, why? Because unfortunately that is realistic.

Hopefully the new assman feature will subtly guide people towards understanding where they're going wrong, and then all we be good

[Ched]

i think you are pretty stupid for calling him stupid.

Very helpful...

[Deathcab for Cutie]

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics

i thought moderators were supposed to be a voice of reason? who moderates the moderators?

[Guest hayta]

As wwfan pointed out, the only people that get treated in an "insensible" way are those who pass the buck, and just accuse the game of cheating etc. If someone says "what am i doing wrong?" I (as well as numerous others)will often go out of our way to help and assist those who are having trouble.

The quality of our suggestions may vary though (probably best to ignore me and listen to wwfan lol)

This is the issue many people are having - they can't figure out why FM08 is different (i personally didn't think it was that different to 07, in fact my fmt is essentially the same, but that's for another thread.)

I'm not saying you haven't tried, just that you haven't hit on a workable tactic yet - trust me, the game is supposed to be the hardest yet - and will hopefully continue to get harder, why? Because unfortunately that is realistic.

Hopefully the new assman feature will subtly guide people towards understanding where they're going wrong, and then all we be good

of course people are willing to help. but the overall complaint fit in one single post in the initiation post of the topic is replied as "it's your tactics" all over... this is a so-called polite way of saying "you are dumb"... this should not be the way.

i agreed with StripeySCFC in his post because he was particularly right about the inconsistencies of the suggestions.

i am a member of my favorite club's forum, the "football manager 2008" topic is already 797 pages long, has 11,942 posts in it, which 918 of them are posted by myself. fm2009 topic is already 26 pages long etc. we discuss there too. i give out tactics, people make suggestions. but everybody's recipe for success varies so wildly, people like mine are confused who to listen to even after we admit our failures and ask for help.

i keep on admitting that i am a total failure in the game for this version, i do, really, honestly. i have not managed to achieve any of my fm07 successes in 08. of course the blame is not all on the game.

for 09, all i do is hope that 27/32 shots on goal would create more than one goal, while my pitiful opponent's 1/2 reflects 100% on the score sheet. no one can explain this with tactics or my strikers' lack of efficiency, can they? maybe once or twice per season, not more, am i totally wrong?

[wwfan]

I thought ignoring all my posts for one post was pretty special. Now it is every sentence for one sentence. You just can't win!! Despite my having written more words of advice on the FM08 ME than almost anybody else, I have to do it all over again for every user who has an issue. Surprisingly, given the lack of information in the first post, that is next to impossible, because I can only guess why he is seeing such things as we have no information about his tactic. Hence, it's your tactics is the only possible answer that is valid.

For what it is worth, Ched, which may be very little, I agree that '08 played very similarly to '07. CD and d-line were a little different, as were the effectiveness of TMs and playmakers, but other than that, I used almost exactly the same tactics as I did in 07.

[jayahr]

Am I really that stupid?

As a mod you can't expect an honest answer to this one

[Deathcab for Cutie]

I thought ignoring all my posts for one post was pretty special. Now it is every sentence for one sentence. You just can't win!! Despite my having written more words of advice on the FM08 ME than almost anybody else, I have to do it all over again for every user who has an issue. Surprisingly, given the lack of information in the first post, that is next to impossible, because I can only guess why he is seeing such things as we have no information about his tactic. Hence, it's your tactics is the only possible answer that is valid.

For what it is worth, Ched, which may be very little, I agree that '08 played very similarly to '07. CD and d-line were a little different, as were the effectiveness of TMs and playmakers, but other than that, I used almost exactly the same tactics as I did in 07.

there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

[Nomis07]

of course people are willing to help. but the overall complaint fit in one single post in the initiation post of the topic is replied as "it's your tactics" all over... this is a so-called polite way of saying "you are dumb"... this should not be the way.

I think that's quite a precious way of looking at it. I got a lot of help from the tactics and training forum, other than rehashing/reposting everything that has been said in there and all the pearls of wisdom certain members provide, "it's your tactics" is surely the only suitable response. Of course on occasion people can be quite blunt about it, but essentially what people are asking for in a majority of threads similar to this, is tactical advice. This advice is already available and has been given 100's of times before so it stands to reason that respected members who have put themselves out in helping others on many occasions, will eventually get tired of repeating themselves.

[Nomis07]

there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

Unfortunately I think wwfan, and other mods or members who try to help, are left in the position that he will be lambasted for not replying and lambasted for replying. The nature of these forums, on occasion, is such that he will get the same response if he is offish about this subject as he would if he simply provided a link to the tactics and training forum, that isn't to say that I found anything he posted as offish or unhelpful.

[Ched]

there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

An option i can only pray you will exercise in the future

[Deathcab for Cutie]

An option i can only pray you will exercise in the future

i don't feel that its a burden. in fact, i feel the urge to comment on your sarcasm. try harder...you might actually come up with something funny.

[Deathcab for Cutie]

Unfortunately I think wwfan, and other mods or members who try to help, are left in the position that he will be lambasted for not replying and lambasted for replying. The nature of these forums, on occasion, is such that he will get the same response if he is offish about this subject as he would if he simply provided a link to the tactics and training forum, that isn't to say that I found anything he posted as offish or unhelpful.

moderator

The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2008

mod·er·a·tor / ˈmädəˌrātər/

• n. 1. an arbitrator or mediator: Egypt managed to assert its role as a regional moderator.

∎ a presiding officer, esp. a chairman of a debate. ∎ a Presbyterian minister presiding over an ecclesiastical body.

2. a substance used in a nuclear reactor to ****** neutrons

i think i like option 2.

[carboreeta]

For every person not doing well there can be found one that is doing well, if at least one person can do well then the game is not broken or cheating its just that that person is better than the rest at the "game" I know many games I am no good at on PC and other platforms but as I play more i improve and steal tips from those that are better so again improving myself. Those that are not good and do not get any better after experiencing FM2008 for a year now and with all the advice available on these forumns not to mention the ability to download tactics/training/player shortlists etc are doing somethign very very wrong.

So there are 3 choices, be happy with mediocrity, improve, stop playing (the final choice appears to be that which the OP is taking)

[wwfan]

You do like to make friends and influence people, don't you? From experience, the OP type won't read what I have to say anyway. However, to make you happy:

1. Superkeepers: you are probably creating too many snatched or long-range chances due to a combination of too narrow tactics and playing at too high a tempo. You are probably also only generating chances via through balls, rather than moving the ball across the midfield to someone who can play a cross or through ball while in space. Slowing it down might help, as would playing with wingers. Getting your full backs to overlap might also be useful, as that creates even more chance of an uncontested ball in. Giving strikers free roles and CF can also help them to find space and pick the right type of shot when they get a chance.

2. Far too many chances wasted: see above

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it is likely that your defensive settings are poor. The common error is to have the midfield sitting too far from the back line, thus allowing opposing strikers too much space to work in. Other possible errors are having the whole team zonal.loose marking, too deep a d-line, too high closing down on the DCs. However, without you explaining your tactic further I am only guessing as to which it could be

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: a combination of the above points. Common problems with the above type of tactic is that they keep the ball in the centre of the park pretty easily and create many long range shots, thus statistically suggesting you have a good tactic. However, in reality they don't create any good chances and are hugely vulnerable to late counter attacks.

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: see the above points

6. Far too many goals disallowed: I would suggest that you probably have your FCs on too high a mentality and FWRS often. That will lead to them being caught offside a lot.

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: because of all the above, many shots will be taken in crowded areas. These will deflect

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: If you are 1-0 up with 20 mins to go, any team will try to get back in the game. The 4-2-4 is how the AI tries to do this. Be proactive and decide to see out the game before the AI changes its system

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: They are usually in more space. See above for explanation

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: they don't annihilate them. They generate high shot counts, but none of the shots are of any quality. See above

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: only if all the above is going on and the lack of quality of your players is compounded by the paucity of the tactic

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: Be proactive and switch to a more cautious tactic to see the game out. Think about keeping players back by reducing mentality and FWRs.

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: Try to take the pressure off them in the man/media management options. Praise them for good performances and sympathise with bad.

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: offsides are pretty easy to read. Other infractions aren't. If you can't read them, just ignore them.

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. As I said before, i agree with this one, but as the transfer module is being rewritten, it doesn't matter.

Now, we'll see if these answers, which are still only partial, make any difference to the OP. I apologise for all the offence I have caused. I will never attempt humour again.

[Nomis07]

I find it quite funny that users like Deathcab_for_Cutie, seem shocked that moderators etc get fed up with these forums considering how little his last few posts have added to this discussion and how quickly threads can turn into inane ramblings. I also take exception to his username, because that band ruined "This Charming Man", and didn't even get the words right .

[Ched]

I find it quite funny that users like Deathcab_for_Cutie, seem shocked that moderators etc get fed up with these forums considering how little his last few posts have added to this discussion and how quickly threads can turn into inane ramblings. I also take exception to his username, because that band ruined "This Charming Man", and didn't even get the words right .

It's a pity as there was a decent debate going on and the thread had improved dramatically since the OP.

[Deathcab for Cutie]

my posts were in response to those so called 'inane ramblings'.

your last post hasn't exactly contributed to solving world hunger either so lets just move on.

[Ched]

i feel the urge to comment on your sarcasm. try harder...you might actually come up with something funny.

your last post hasn't exactly contributed to solving world hunger either so lets just move on.

...........

[Deathcab for Cutie]

you should try to come up with your own stuff. i know..thinking hurts, but try anyway

[Nomis07]

Argh, right let's end this now and discuss the actual topic. Do you actually have an opinion on what has been discussed so far Deathcab?

[Goofus]

1. Superkeepers: It could be that your strikers are impotent(think wrong word to use), or they are taking too long shots. Therefore, the keepers save more shots, and therefore are seen as 'superkeepers'. Being a goalkeeper myself, one game i can be a superb keeper(where in reality the shots are spectacular but savable)and in another, absolute ********.

2. Far too many chances wasted: See Above.

3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: They might have 'broken' your tactic. In other words, you must adjust your tactic. Torres can penetrate almost any defence, but against Man Utd, he has so far drawn a blank. This is because Vidic and Ferdinand have adapted, with Vidic providing the physical presence and Ferdinand staying sharp to Torres at all times.

4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: Portsmouth 7-4 Reading? In some games, you might dominate(81% for England vs. Andorra possession), however poor finishing and defensive lapses, may bring you on the wrong side of a thrashing.

5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: Above.

6. Far too many goals disallowed: happens a lot to me too. Could be your strikers are playing too attacking, thus too far up front.

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: That is exaggeration. For free-kicks, yes this is true. But for goals, i would say a few only are scored by deflections per month. This is true even in real life.

8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: This is your own fault. You should have seen their approach to 4-2-4 as soon as you went 1-0 up. Granted, if it's 3-0 up, there's no need to change. But with 1-0 up and little time to go, its normal any team would attack. You must anticipate.

9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: Better positions? Basically,it's your tactics. And I'm not joking.

10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: What is annialate? and this is untrue. See 'diablo' tactics for further detail.

11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: What were you expecting?Norwich to triumph against Chelsea?

12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: As soon as you score, the opposition will attack. Its up to you to make the necessary defensive preparation.

13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: Now this has happened to me personally. You need to get his confidence back. Praise him, guide him, sympathise, get his morale back. He will start scoring. Trust me.

14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: Ignore them. Most of the time they aren't worth it.

15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. The transfer module is broken and will be changed.

[Ched]

Perfect response goofus. Unfortunately, after posting his tripe, the OP has sinced bailed, leaving a distinct essence of "troll" in the air. Which makes any debate over whether we've treated him unfairly a bit pointless tbh.

[wwfan]

That's so eerily similar it's spooky

[Deathcab for Cutie]

its obvious the OP is having major issues...so does fm08. it can be a very frustrating game. totally agree with serpico. he said it all.