refraining from using player search

Hello all

I was wondering whether anyone else has refrained from using player search in FM 11. I have been sceptical in past versions, but with the introduction of agents offering players (especially free agents) and with the obvious scouting I was thinking that using these 2 methods would be much more realistic and interesting. The only problem for me would be how many players that I could actually buy that the scouts would find? Anyway, has anyone done this in their games - and if so, what were the consequences?

I barely ever use the player search option. I have 15 scouts and they have recommended something like 1000 players in the last year or so, maybe I'm missing something, but those are more than enough to go along with.

If I do use the player search it's to pull up youn players on a certain position who I then set my scouts to assess, but most of the time I find that my scouts have already found 90% of the decent ones.

I don't see why it's unrealistic to search for a player. It's like looking up that player on Wikipedia, or asking the question, "Who are the best finishers in the world today? <click>". The only possible requirement is attribute masking if you want to be strictly realistic, of course.

Fair enough if you like playing like that. I can see the merits and reasons. But I haven't got the patience TBH and enjoy sifting through potential players every summer. I'll always use it for the convenience.

Haha I don't do it because it's unrealistic, I'm simply far too lazy to bother. If I need a striker I find the best ones my scouts have recommended and go for them.

Well i like to use a couple of filters.

-Age at most 19, youth caps at least 3 to find some good young players.

-Contract status expired, at least 2 international caps, to find some good experienced players.

-Contract status expiring in 1 year-6 months to find some good players on a Bosman.

Ideally i would like to never use the player search, i feel i waste way too much time looking players up but i can't never seem to setup my scouting to be sufficient enough for the demands of my team even with the players from the backroom advice.

I like the player search, expecially since it was linked to scouting knowledge a few versions ago. I think it is still a little bit generous in terms of availablity of information but it is still a great starting point for assigning specific scouting missions.

I like the player search, expecially since it was linked to scouting knowledge a few versions ago. I think it is still a little bit generous in terms of availablity of information but it is still a great starting point for assigning specific scouting missions.

Agreed.

It's not as if the player search will return absurdly obscure names.

TBH I find more unrealistic sticking solely and "talibanishly" to scouting, basically implying a manager doesn't even KNOW the players in his league and in other Top Leagues...

Do people really need a 20/20 scout with 100% scouting knowledge to "find" the players of Palermo or Villareal? Hell, managers don't live under a rock!

It isn't a matter of refusing to "know" who plays for whom. And yes, in this day of computerized databases, where most professional soccer players in the whole of Europe, and a very large percentage of them worldwide, can be found on Wiki, it's unrealistic to assume you cannot know "something" about a player half-way around the world.

But the player search function does more than that, now, doesn't it? It offers up data about a player that there would be no way to discover in real life, absent having sent someone off to look at the player, or having spent an absurdly long time reviewing data from fantasy league websites, etc. THAT is the usual objection to the player search function. Do you think that even someone like Sir Alex fires up the old computer and says, "Gee, I wonder who's got a 17 or higher on free-kick taking in Australia and is out of contract..."?

So some combination of database use and scouting efforts would most closely approximate realism, I'm thinking.

Do you think that even someone like Sir Alex fires up the old computer and says, "Gee, I wonder who's got a 17 or higher on free-kick taking in Australia and is out of contract..."?

With attribute masking turned on, the only players that would turn up on that search are the ones who are either well known enough or have been scouted. It is when the player search is used without the attribute masking on that the problems arise.

prefer using player search instead of several other methods some in the game, others not in the game. like finding players that way, especially as i try to sign players i find are rarely mentioned on the forums as the idea of signing players everybody else knows about bugs me xD

There's a whole forum of players who never use player search - the LLaMa forum. I find that with FM11, even with rubbish scouts, the assman and coaches recommend so many players that I can play perfectly well without using it. i do use it for searching for staff, though.

I only buy players I see in my inbox.

what's player search?

With the backroom advice screens now we get far too many players recommended to scout as it is... I like to scout my shortlisted players on a regular basis but half my staff are out scouting their recommendations instead!

I send my scouts out to find me players, I scout the players that my staff recommend, and I scout the players that my Assistant recommends in his team report... if I can't build a decent squad from all those options then I'm in the wrong job...

I would like to add a feature though, one where we can ask our staff for their recommendations for a particular position - "we really need a new <insert position here> guys, player X is just not good enough/too old/not ready for this squad"

maybe then my staff will tell me where I can find a better DR than I have at the moment, I bought a DL to improve the left... but as he can play on the right as well he's my 1st choice DR according to my staff (a right footed left-back... too many of them too!)! and they keep recommending LEFT-BACKS! (I've got three!! :S)

I don't use player search a huge deal but I couldn't play FM if it wasn't there.

I do sometimes need it, especially when the game is full of regens because I can't find specific players else.

Usually though my scouts just highly recommend me players and i'll buy them and I usually just build a squad through a huge scouting network

I don't see why it's unrealistic to search for a player. It's like looking up that player on Wikipedia, or asking the question, "Who are the best finishers in the world today? <click>". The only possible requirement is attribute masking if you want to be strictly realistic, of course.

I agree with this. I don't use it much in most saves, as scouts can make recommendations, but whenever I play as my favorite club (Athletic Club) I use it a lot. It's easy to just hit player search and look up Basque players or Spanish players 16 or younger, and, as you said, isn't realistic. If I were a manager IRL, I could go on Wikipedia and just look at a list of Basque players, and do some reading and research from there, then send a scout to look up the ones I liked. Or I could find lists of Basque players other places online, and I'm sure the club would compile some lists as well. Besides, even when using player search and subsequently scouting players I find, rarely do any of them impress me enough to get signed, so it's not like it is giving me some sort of huge advantage.

I only buy players I see in my inbox.

I assume thats the way I was alluding to, i.e. only buying players using agent offers and scout recommendations?

I never search by attributes, basically because I think it's boring, and I acquire players purely based on scout reports.

I just find it more fun that way.

I wish there was a "scout staff" option because the job applicants are uniformly terrible.

I agree with this. I don't use it much in most saves, as scouts can make recommendations, but whenever I play as my favorite club (Athletic Club) I use it a lot. It's easy to just hit player search and look up Basque players or Spanish players 16 or younger, and, as you said, isn't realistic. If I were a manager IRL, I could go on Wikipedia and just look at a list of Basque players, and do some reading and research from there, then send a scout to look up the ones I liked. Or I could find lists of Basque players other places online, and I'm sure the club would compile some lists as well. Besides, even when using player search and subsequently scouting players I find, rarely do any of them impress me enough to get signed, so it's not like it is giving me some sort of huge advantage.

But in such a relatively small and "secluded" talent pool, isn't most likely the Basque Top Club will have an extensive knowledge of all the local clubs (and players) already?

I mean, "Country Knowledge" in FM has been introduced to replicate the real-life situation of clubs having broad and deep scouting networks within certain areas... So when you as Arsenal manager use the player search option, it's not unrealistic you'll find more players than if you were managing Rushden & Diamonds.

IMO attributes masking works just fine... it hides stats of players you're not supposed to know, partially or totally.

Unless you have a coach or a scout from that particular region, you're not likely to discover some awesome Zambian newgens... On the other hand not trying to sign U21 Internationals or widely known youngsters just because "it's unrealistic! My scout didn't find them so they don't exist!" is a tad daft in my book.

I use the search but will only buy players I have scouted. I would use scouts exclusively but the game would be a bit slow then.

Attribute masking on, ignore the player search function completely, and trust discovering players entirely to the scouts. This is how I've always played CM/FM, it's a hangover from the days when I used to play exclusively LLM style. Adds a bit to the immersion, and it feels like a bigger reward when you discover and sign an unkown but promising new talent.

All this use of editors, obsession with CA/PA etc just seems bizarre to me. It's a game, supposed to be played in the spirit of you as a manager in a simulated world. If you want to pick the seams of the game mechanics and code, destroy the immersion, turn the game into nothing than a glorified excel spreadsheet used for searching for numbers, and essentially cheat your way to success so you can feel better about yourself go ahead, but it's not for me.

Oh, and never mind the entirely unrealistic player search function, the thing that really gets me going is the ridiculous amount of wailing and moaning about the even more unrealistic 'value' system. SI should have done away with it eons ago, remove the source of endless whining and griping, and at the same time increase the realism by removing a wholly redundant and bizarre element of the game.

[/rant]

Sorry for the vent, in short, no, I don't use the player search function.

I don't see why it's unrealistic to search for a player. It's like looking up that player on Wikipedia, or asking the question, "Who are the best finishers in the world today? <click>". The only possible requirement is attribute masking if you want to be strictly realistic, of course.

It's not like looking up the players on Wiki simply because you have to be aware of the player in the first place to search for his Wiki page. It's more akin to searching for "random foreign footballers" on Wiki, and the site returning thousands of relevent hits with full details of the players career, measurables, personality, skills, and a multitude of other undocumentable intangibles and variables. So no, it's not at all like using Wiki.

It's not like looking up the players on Wiki simply because you have to be aware of the player in the first place to search for him. It's more akin to searching for "random foreign footballers" on Wiki, and the site returning thousands of relevent hits with full details of the players career, measurables, personality, skills, and a multitude of other undocumentable intangibles and variables. So no, it's not at all like using Wiki.

Fine then - Opta.

Again, does Opta return results of thousands of players you've never heard of, or only those you actually enquire about?

If we really want to nit-pick about the player search, it's also not realistic that a scout after one report can tell you that the player is susceptible to injuries(since they get this from the attribute on the DB instead of the actual injury history), that he is adaptable or not to live in another country,etc.

I only use player search when my scouts are unable to find a player from a position i need.. and of course with attribute masking on.

Again, does Opta return results of thousands of players you've never heard of, or only those you actually enquire about?

I have no doubt you can hack something with Opta's XML files to create a database.

XML databases do exist.

I have no doubt you can hack something with Opta's XML files to create a database.

XML databases do exist.

Is it something a run of the mill football manager at a League Two club would do as a matter of routine to try and find out which Guatemalan players are out of contract and might suit his team though?

I'm not trying to just pick fault with your reasoning for the sake of it, I just feel that the player search feature doesn't really have any comparable real life counterpart and so, if you're really at all concerned with game immersion, it's best ignored entirely.

Everyone to their own styles of course, all I'm trying to do is explain why, for me at least, it's naughty and a no-no.

Is it something a run of the mill football manager at a League Two club would do as a matter of routine to try and find out which Guatemalan players are out of contract and might suit his team though?

The player search is unlikely to show players that are that obscure though, since the players that show up are governed by the club's scouting knowledge. Maybe it could be limited a bit more but the player search feature is a long way from being just a list of players in the game (as it used to be).

I know things are probably different for the bigger clubs, but there is a mention in here of a scout using a database, and that was a few years ago.

The player search is unlikely to show players that are that obscure though, since the players that show up are governed by the club's scouting knowledge. Maybe it could be limited a bit more but the player search feature is a long way from being just a list of players in the game (as it used to be).

I know things are probably different for the bigger clubs, but there is a mention in here of a scout using a database, and that was a few years ago.

Fair do's, I stand corrected. Shows how long, and how many iterations of CM/FM have passed since I last toyed with the evils of player search

Essence of the point remains though, I don't know of any real life equivalent which a manager can use to instantaneously make himself aware of players he had no prior knowledge of, which also provides the sort of depth of information FM does for someone using the search feature. I'll admit to perusing the squads of teams playing in the same league as I manage in, looking for potential free transfers for my scouts to examine, although to me this falls under the remit of what would be realistically acceptable. A manager or club staff who really have no clue what's going on with rival clubs in the same division aren't doing their job properly.

Fair do's, I stand corrected. Shows how long, and how many iterations of CM/FM have passed since I last toyed with the evils of player search

Essence of the point remains though, I don't know of any real life equivalent which a manager can use to instantaneously make himself aware of players he had no prior knowledge of, which also provides the sort of depth of information FM does for someone using the search feature. I'll admit to perusing the squads of teams playing in the same league as I manage in, looking for potential free transfers for my scouts to examine, although to me this falls under the remit of what would be realistically acceptable. A manager or club staff who really have no clue what's going on with rival clubs in the same division aren't doing their job properly.

I can understand that. While it has been vastly improved with the inclusion of scouting knowledge, it still seems to be able to provide too much information too easily.

I guess we all have our own habits on what we use and how. For me, the player search is a starting point to assign my scouts to look at groups of players. I'll let my scouts pick out the players I actually look at rather than doing it directly from that screen.

What everybody is failing to recognise is the fact that, in real-life, when a club is releasing/transfer-listing players they send a fax to all clubs that *might* have an interest in signing that/those players. No RL manager likes to see their youths leave the club and never get another deal, they do what they can to help them get a contract somewhere else...

If you then have "contacts" in another country, either personally or through staff/scouts, then it's reasonable to assume that you would 'know' about those players too...

Huddersfield signed an Australian left-back from Central Coast Mariners (who?) last season that nobody had heard of, but they obviously knew about him or they couldn't have signed him... (Dean Heffernan for those that care).

We don't know for sure just how much any club/manager knows about other players...

Is it something a run of the mill football manager at a League Two club would do as a matter of routine to try and find out which Guatemalan players are out of contract and might suit his team though?

I'm not trying to just pick fault with your reasoning for the sake of it, I just feel that the player search feature doesn't really have any comparable real life counterpart and so, if you're really at all concerned with game immersion, it's best ignored entirely.

Everyone to their own styles of course, all I'm trying to do is explain why, for me at least, it's naughty and a no-no.

Your premise is wrong. If any League Two manager has scouting knowledge of Guatemala in real-life, I would be very surprised.

Your premise is wrong. If any League Two manager has scouting knowledge of Guatemala in real-life, I would be very surprised.

The premise isn't 'wrong', simply because the debate is not about which managers are likely to have knowledge of Guatemala in real life. I used Guatemala as an example purely for comic effect to highlight the sort of ridiculous abuse the search function used to factilitate, and the inherently unrealistic nature of the context of the information it provides.

The point was in response to your justification reasoning that XML databases can be hacked, not about L2 managers knowledge of Guatemalan players. I'm simply querying if hacking databases is actually the sort of thing you honestly think managers spend time doing in order to source players.

As it happens, and as you'd expect, I agree entirely L2 managers are unlikely to have a knowledge of Guatemalan football. It's exactly for this reason I don't expect to have any method to source and evaluate Guatemalan players as a League Two manager in FM, hence my long-standing dislike of the search function, and my approval of Dafuge's revelation that the FM player search has been tweaked somewhat to tone this sort of thing down.

What everybody is failing to recognise is the fact that, in real-life, when a club is releasing/transfer-listing players they send a fax to all clubs that *might* have an interest in signing that/those players. No RL manager likes to see their youths leave the club and never get another deal, they do what they can to help them get a contract somewhere else...

If you then have "contacts" in another country, either personally or through staff/scouts, then it's reasonable to assume that you would 'know' about those players too...

All of this is already reproduced within the FM game world without going anywhere near player search.

All of this is already reproduced within the FM game world without going anywhere near player search.

I disagree with you there Boltman, I never get a fax whenever Man Utd or Arsenal release their youngsters... I get a message saying "Clubs in England release players" and a "view players" button which then gives me a stonking great list of players, most of whom I have nil interest in even looking at, never mind signing. I also don't have AW or SAF on the phone telling me about their kid that is just not going to be good enough for them but for me he'd be awesome...

Again, I don't personally have any footballing contacts in another country unless I've managed there, and even then the only way to see players that I might have learned about whilst there would be to use player search just as it would be to see any players that my staff may know about (unless they come and tell me in the Backroom Advice screen).

I don't use player search myself, so don't think I'm advocating it's use. I'm merely stating the differences in FM to RL. I rely heavily on my scouts/staff to find me players that are good enough for (or better than) the current squad. If they give me duds, then I can't improve the team... simple.

What everybody is failing to recognise is the fact that, in real-life, when a club is releasing/transfer-listing players they send a fax to all clubs that *might* have an interest in signing that/those players. No RL manager likes to see their youths leave the club and never get another deal, they do what they can to help them get a contract somewhere else...

If you then have "contacts" in another country, either personally or through staff/scouts, then it's reasonable to assume that you would 'know' about those players too...

Huddersfield signed an Australian left-back from Central Coast Mariners (who?) last season that nobody had heard of, but they obviously knew about him or they couldn't have signed him... (Dean Heffernan for those that care).

We don't know for sure just how much any club/manager knows about other players...

This is one thing I would like to see. Currently when we 'offer to other clubs', it's only the clubs who are actively interested in the player who get contacted. We ought to be able to specify clubs or whole divisions that we'd like to inform a player is for sale.

The premise isn't 'wrong', simply because the debate is not about which managers are likely to have knowledge of Guatemala in real life. I used Guatemala as an example purely for comic effect to highlight the sort of ridiculous abuse the search function used to factilitate, and the inherently unrealistic nature of the context of the information it provides.

And again, League Two managers don't have scouting knowledge of Guatemalan players in-game, so they won't appear on player search (correct me if I'm wrong, of course).

So League Two managers don't have knowledge of Guatemalan players either in real-life or in-game. This is why the premise is wrong.

It's like saying that Football Manager doesn't allow you to manage a rugby team, therefore it is unrealistic. But not many football managers manage rugby teams in the first place!

The point was in response to your justification reasoning that XML databases can be hacked, not about L2 managers knowledge of Guatemalan players. I'm simply querying if hacking databases is actually the sort of thing you honestly think managers spend time doing in order to source players.

No, but they no doubt have databases of players who are slightly interesting to the club. They base this by implicitly cutting out rubbish candidates - but the fact is that they have a list that also contains rubbish candidates too!

If you want to buy something, you have a list of candidate supermarkets to buy them from. You can also find various supermarket reviews online and through word-of-mouth. This is essentially your player search. Sir Alex wants a striker - and his scouts can use Opta or other PFA databases to look for all strikers whom Sir Alex may be remotely interested in. They narrow it down to a few specific candidates and Sir Alex looks at them. Scouts build up this database by scouting, in the same way you look at supermarket reviews online.

It's not just scouts that are the only source of players, after all.

There is a real-life transfer list and the PFA has doubtless got lists of players. It is so much easier to look at players whom you know exist rather than finding players that are unknown and need to be scouted. So yes, there is a list, and yes, I would not be surprised if clubs have huge lists of players with lots of comments. Perhaps not with the granularity of the Player Search function in-game but then again in real-life clubs probably don't assign a rating of 1-20 for around 30 attributes for a player.

Player attributes are an abstraction of a player's ability - and I believe clubs will use giant lists with annotations of a player's ability ("Heskey - Rubbish. Villa - Brilliant."). So yes, I do believe Player Search is somewhat realistic.

So League Two managers don't have knowledge of Guatemalan players either in real-life or in-game. This is why the premise is wrong..

No, it's not. Your understanding of what the premise here actually is is the only thing wrong.

We're not debating L2 managers knowledge of Guatemalan football ffs.

Your scouts don't always find the best players... that's why the player search is there. You can search the players and list them by "Recommended". Because you don't get the scout reports intermingled any other way.

I only buy the players that have 4.5 stars or 5 stars recommended by scouts. And that's how I seem to have won the league twice in a row with Palmero and won the champions league in my 2nd season. Some turn around for Palmero? The game is too easy.

No, it's not. Your understanding of what the premise here actually is is the only thing wrong.

We're not debating L2 managers knowledge of Guatemalan football ffs.

Well then, regarding the XML database - I wouldn't be surprised if Opta have some tool for viewing these files in a database-like way. XML is just a data representation. So would a manager use this database to look for players? No - but you can bet someone in his backroom staff would! It doesn't have to be an Opta list, anyway. It could be just a list of players from the PFA list, or a compiled list of scout reports, or a list of players the assistant manager met down the pub.

I don't believe it's beyond the realms of possibility that a club - even amateur - doesn't keep lists of players they have at least remotely looked at in the newspapers.

Look at this: http://www.givemefootball.com/pfa-transfer-list - this is a list of players who are on the transfer list. In fact, it IS the transfer list. It contains hundreds, if not thousands, of players currently ready to be bought. A database full of players a club may never have heard of.

You can no doubt get a list of players in the whole of the Football League somewhere - and most managers would never have heard of most of these players. Again, a database full of players a club may never have heard of.

They can infer various things from the database, anyway. For example, if a striker has a fearsome scoring record, they can hazard a guess to his finishing. Imperfect information perhaps, but still information nevertheless. In addition, a scout might have been watching a game where that striker was playing, but he was watching another player - maybe the scout remembers something.

So no, I don't think player search is terribly unrealistic - we are not restricted to the players that have been scouted or are on trial. A League Two manager is going to know that David Villa is a very good striker and because he's always on the television, he will know pretty much what his attributes are going to be like. Yet David Villa would never be scouted by a League Two side - nor be taken on trial.

This is where scouting knowledge somewhat plays a part - and why Player Search isn't terribly unrealistic.

Personally, I don't use the player search.

However, is anyone certain how AI managed teams target potential players?

I have seen teams without any scouts complete transfers. How are they researching these players? Are they utilising the player search function and do they get an 'unfair' view of the database?

I know the big teams tend to buy worldwide/continental known players, but how do the teams in the lower leagues find players? Or the big teams buying unknown 16/17 year olds for the future?

Just a thought, as I don't think it's fair if the AI gets an advantage over the human players.