Possession with intent: Exploring tactical flexibility with the 4-5-1.

[sporadicsmiles]

Since what we have in FM20 is apparently what we are going to get, I have decided to sit down and try to make something I find attractive, and then to share it with you guys. At the same time, I wanted to explore two things in the game. The first is using roles and duties rather than formation to produce the type of football I want to see. So rather than switching formations to achieve different things, I want to use roles, duties, PIs and Tis around the same formation to produce different types of football. The second is to produce some nice, short passing possession tactic which scores goals. I am not aiming for 60+% possession every game, but rather I want to include short passing interplays which leads to goals. High possession is a bonus after that.

I want to note at the start that I am not proposing some panacea which will make FM20 suddenly play beautiful football and score a variety of goals. I am still seeing most goals coming from crossing. This, I think, is something we just must live with in FM20. What I do want to do is to give people new ideas about what they can do, and to make something I find pleasant to watch. And that can win games and score goals. I doubt this is going to end up in a single tactic that can be copied, but it should give many ideas about things people can try and give a different perspective on how to approach the game.

The Humble 4-5-1.

I mention I wanted tactical flexibility. I remember a thread from years ago that used a 4-5-1 to produce many different styles of football. I was inspired by this at the time, and my mind has returned to it at various points since. So I am going to take the ideas I remember from this thread and add my own. If anyone can remember this thread and link it, that would be great. Assuming it is not lost in an archive somewhere.

So why the 4-5-1?

Pretty much every 1 striker formation is a derivative of this basic shape. The only thing that differentiates the 4231 wide and 4141 DM wide (I will use FM language as much as possible here) in terms of shape is the position of the central of the three midfielders. High up the pitch in the 4231 wide, deep lying in the 4141 DM wide. A 4321 formation is another more complicated derivative. Where you either push both wide players inside and high, or you push up the two flanking central midfielders, and tuck the wide players in behind them. In essence, a 451 can in principle be transposed into many different formations using just roles and duties. Some examples.

The advantage of using this in FM? For starters the formation you choose acts like a defensive formation (not exactly, but it is close enough). So out of possession my players would fall back to a 451 shape regardless of how they set up in possession. This is a nice, solid defensive shape, and I do not have to worry about getting players to track back. They will do that automatically. The other advantage is that I do not need to think about things like familiarity that much, as I will be using the same base formation. In reality, this is just something I wanted to try!

Making a 4231 with possession.

This thread is going to be progressive, as in I am working on things as I am writing. The joys of quarantine, eh? So things will not be set in stone here. I am experimenting and things will change. The first thing I wanted to do was to make something that plays like a 4231 with short passing, possession and creates good chances. I was thinking along the lines of Barcelona, but not so manic with the possession ideals. Which makes Barcelona the ideal club to choose in this situation actually, for my initial musings. The advantage is I know my players are good enough to win games so I do not have to worry about player suitability so much. The disadvantage is all my players are good enough to win games. Nevertheless, I am looking for patterns and styles of play which I know will translate to other teams. Note that at the moment I cannot upload videos, since I have moved to a new house and am living off the internet on my phone. So no wasted internet! Which will make things tricky. I will start with the ideas in this post, and I will try to show passages of play in the next.

Here are my initial thoughts on a 451 that morphs into a 4231, and can play a vertical tiki taka style. Well, vertical-ish anyway.

Let’s work our way through this. Starting in defence. I have a GK(D). Which is something that I need to experiment with still. At the moment I still have to consider a sweeper keeper here. But honestly with Barcelona I dominate games mostly so this has not been an issue. The same goes for the CD(D). I have not tried anything else yet, because I have not needed to. Something to think about in the future is if we can add something interesting here.

On the flanks we have two WB(S). Oh no! you scream. But it is symmetrical! You shout. We will get to why I do not think this is the case later on (and astute people will know that my flanks are playing very differently to each other.

Up front I have a PF(S). Since I want to press hard, this seems reasonable. Support duty because I want him to be involved in build up play and not just sit on the shoulder of the defender. I am not going to be being very direct, so this is not really needed. Again, this is something I want to explore in more detail to get the maximum from the player.

So we arrive in midfield. Hopefully you can immediately see how the selection of roles and duties here is going to create the 2-3 of the 4231. The two attack duties at IW(A) on the left and CM(A) on the right are two thirds of the 3. The IW(S) on the right will also get advanced, but less so, and I will discuss the flanks shortly. Then we have the DLP(D). He is the pivot and the guy who orchestrates the whole thing. And the first line of defence against counter attacks. This guy has to be a really good all round midfielder. Then the CM(S) is, well, variable. Against stronger sides I would have a CM(D) here, and use a double pivot with more defensive stability. As Barcelona, I am usually playing weaker sides, and I want the CM(S) to be involved more in the press.

Speaking of the press, lets get to the TIs. I am working on positive, because I do not have many attack duties and I want to actually be trying to score goals, not just passing around forever. Balanced should give more possession with less goal threat – so to see a game out. Attacking will give me more goal threat but less possession.

In possession instructions. Shorter passing and play out of defence come entirely from my wanting to play passing football. Nothing particularly special here. The support roles will make passing from the back varied and consistent against a press. So these instructions are a style thing.

High tempo and wide. Here I want to achieve two things. First is to pass the ball quickly, never allowing the defending side to settle. They always have to chase the passes, and we are moving the ball quickly enough they are always reactive to me. Wide is to spread the team as wide as possible. I want to spread the pitch, make the AI defend everywhere. Worry about the middle, worry about the flanks. Not be able to cover everything. Couple this to the high tempo and the DLP(D) pivot, I am going to be able to switch the ball from flank to flank very quickly. This will strain a defence, as they always have to be moving to cover new threats.

Overlap right. Here is where I will talk about the flanks. So they look almost symmetrical, right? Only difference is the duty of the ML. Well, overlap right changes that. This will make the MR a little more conservative, and the DR more attacking (but not immediately). So the WB(S) behaves more like a WB(A) when we are in the attacking phase. This gives me the width I need. It also creates a very nice overload on the right flank (do you spot which players are involved in it?). Whereas the left flank has a IW(A) getting forward, providing the immediate width and directness in the team. I will try to show examples of this.

In transition. Counter and counter press. Counter is actually something I use sparingly. I do not want to pass up the chance to break quickly and score if the chance arises. With players like Barcelona have, the broken play from counter attacks can be deadly. However, if I want to focus on bring the ball from defence, I will turn it off, or I will set to hold positions.

Counter press is self explanatory. If I want to have the ball a lot, I need to deny it the opposition. What is more, I have a lot of deep players, so we need to be pressing so the AI cannot just keep the ball in their own half (as very defensive sides are happy to do). I actually really like the way pressing happens with this formation. It is not total madness, but rather players pressing when they should. It is the best pressing has felt for me in any FM.

Out of possession. Much higher defensive line to compress the space and make my team more compact. And to make sure when I have possession it is not horribly sterile in my own half. Offside trap is to aid not being caught out too often by the ball over the top. Just like real life Barcelona, I will be crushed by any team that can counter attack with pace on both flanks! I want to pass in the opposition half. The line of engagement I have been changing a lot. Against bottom heavy teams I will set it to much higher, and even increase the urgency of the press. Again to try to get pressure on the AI in their half. Which is a weakness of this formation. My midfielders are all quite far from the AI defence.

The initial conclusions

Well, most of what I am describing is indeed what I see. I will try to get some match analysis up today or tomorrow (maybe a pkm if not huge so you can see for yourself what I see).The results I have had so far:

Absolutely battered everyone I have played except Real Madrid. Who won with a 40m screamer in an otherwise even game. So things are working well. I am winning, and more importantly I am scoring (top goalscorers so far). We are averaging 54% possession a game, which is dragged down by the Madrid game (they were happy to pass around near their defence once they had the lead). I will show some highlights and analysis of the game in a future post. This is already a long one!

[sporadicsmiles]

How does it work: Espanyol vs Barcelona. 

Let's have a quick look at a game. At least to see how things come together. I choose the one I have just played as an example, because it shows some strengths and some weaknesses of this approach. And it is always vital to understand your own weaknesses, not just your own strengths. It is a derby match vs Espanyol away. Here is a summary of the game. 

You can see Espanyol have a very bottom heavy defensive setup. This immediately causes me a problem. As I noted, we will struggle to get huge pressure on a team who are going to pass the ball around the back with 7 players in the DC and DMC strata. So we have to think about how we can either get the ball, or minimize the threat they pose. On the flip side, I should have no issues getting the ball into their half. If I cannot pressure them, they will struggle to pressure me. What changes do I make here? Well, I play a much higher LOE, and a say press more. This is very aggressive, but with a team setup like this, I feel we can get away with it. Otherwise, I set up as above. 

As you can see, it ended in a comfortable 3-0 win. A look at the match stats. 

You can see we did not really create much. Only 12 shots and 5 on target. However we created and converted 3 CCCs. This is an example of quality over quantity. The fact we scored early also took pressure off the side. The longer it takes to score against a team set up like this, the harder it will be to score and the more you will have to make changes. You will see we only conceded 2 shots. One of these, the CCC, was a long ball that beat the offside trap. This is the risk you take playing like this. I fully expect to drop points because of this at some point. Right now, I am playing the risk game and it is paying off with goals. The second chance was a back post cross, which is a very common think in this ME and since it is not an issue in my team, I can ignore it as unimportant. 

For my goals, one was from a corner. Suarez unmarked at the back post to volley home. The other two came from crosses from the left. Short ones from inside the box to the near post. In both goals, the build up was down the right wing followed by quickly getting the ball to the left where the IW(A) and WB(S) had an overload and the AI defence had to scramble to cover. This is good, and what I want to see. 

You will also notice that possession is quite even and the number of passes are similar. This comes back to what I said before. A defensive team happy to play around with the ball out of the back are going to be difficult to get the ball from with this tactic. However let them keep the ball around there. The more they do that, the more chance they have to be pressured into a mistake. Or just lump the ball forward and lose it. Both work for me. However, let me show you why we actually won the possession battle here. The heatmaps of possession for both sides.

Barcelona:

Espanyol:

Espanyol have barely touched the ball in my half. They cannot get out consistently. If you cannot win possession, you can at least make the possession the other team has entirely sterile. This is defending by pressing and with a high line. Keep them in their own half and make them hit long balls all day. Most of which are unsuccessful. Even their penetration down my flanks was not working for them. The MCR and MCL are always available to help cover the flanks when Espanyol tried to enter there. We outnumber in midfield and they cannot break through.

Contrast this to my own possession. We are camped in their half. Dragging the team around and forcing them to be constantly reacting. You can see how we are probing the flanks, and then recycling the ball in midfield. And all this possession is outside the Espanyol box. We had equal possession, but we had the ball in much more dangerous places. This is why we won the possession battle even though it looks even. This is why studying possession statistics alone means nothing. The statistics make the game look even. It was not even close to even. 

Finally, to show how we drag teams from their defensive positions to create space, look at this screenshot.

Here the numbers 4 and 10 are the two DMCs. The ball in this has just been played by my number 5 (the MCR) to Rakitic (the CM(A)). Look at the position of the DMCs. They are forced over to their left to deal with the imminent threat of a 3 man overload down that side. This is not a good defensive shape. Hell, even the 3 CBs are squished to their left. We have stretched them and now we can exploit it. Rakitic has all the space and time in the world. He plays a long, diagonal ball to 17 (the IW(A) who runs onto it. Now he can run onto the ball, has lots of space. He delivers a low cross to number 9, who has lost his marker in the confusion of rushing to deal with the new threat. It is a simple near post tap in, the 'keeper has no chance. 

You can see why this is a nightmare to defend. Look at the options Rakitic has here. He can play the ball he played. He could play the ball into space on my right flank. He can play the ball to the WB on my left, forcing the AI wide midfielder to choose between closing down and covering the flank. If there is nothing else on, he can play the ball to 21 (the DLP) and recycle and wait for the right chance. This is what you want to see from a tactic. Dangerous situations where a player can do many things. There is no way to defend them all here. 

[Obaaa]

Nice thread. Surprised you've had no response. Using a similar philosophy with AZ currently.

[sporadicsmiles]

50 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Nice thread. Surprised you've had no response. Using a similar philosophy with AZ currently.

I guess people have more on their mind at the moment! 

Care to share your style? I'm happy to turn this into a discussion thread where people can post their own ideas and critique my own. 

[Old Scouser Tommy]

This is great I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this. I don't often comment on things anymore as I don't have the time really but this caught my eye. I'm kinda at a crossroads with my Plymouth save and was wondering which direction to go in, system wise and this thread has given me a bit of a boost and a couple of new ideas and thoughts on where to go next. I'm trying to do it only signing British players and using the youth system but wasn't sure about the rest of it. Ill keep reading this it's very interesting well done on a great couple of posts.

[Vizzini]

Great post! Loving the amount of detail and it made me think about my own setup.

[retrodude09]

I really enjoyed reading this. 

Could potentially be applicable to Liverpool who sometimes alternate from their usual 4-3-3 into a 4-2-3-1. This would be a good way to do this whilst keeping 'familiarity' high. 

Did you use any PI's to create a 'split' block? 

[beverage1982]

Really good read. I did a flat 451 thread with Villa on here a few years back but made it wholly pragmatic - so the other end of the spectrum to you.

 

Really enjoyed it though and may revisit thanks to this! 

[sporadicsmiles]

Cheers for the feedback everyone. I have an away game vs Leverkusen next, which would prove a nice challenge. I will write about it later today. 

[sporadicsmiles]

Leverkusen vs Barcelona.

This game is going to end up being a perfect example of the title of this thread. Possession with intent. Remember that my philosophy here is to win the possession battle. And that does not mean make 1000 passes and have 70% possession. It means when we have the ball, we possess it better than the opposition. Limit their chances, make them have sterile possession. When we have the ball, we have it in dangerous areas, and we use it well. 

Here is the summary of the game vs Leverkusen. A 1-0 win.

Leverkusen have set up with a 4141 DM wide. It took one highlight for me to realise they were going to use a patient passing style and play the ball from the back. They were having around 70% possession for the first 15 minutes of the match. But all the highlights were for my attacks. What can this immediately tell you? Well, that we have possession with intent, and they have sterile possession. Indeed, we could have been 2-0 up in that time, as my high press  won the ball from defenders and left both Suarez and Messi 1v1 with the keeper. They both misses (Suarez shot wide, Messi had his angle narrowed by the keeper, who did well and made a good save). This is a situation where you can go one of two ways. Either you want to win the possession battle and so make a raft of chances, or you are happy because you are the more dangerous side.

In the end, I took a middle ground. We did not have a lot of possession partly because Leverkusen were passing around in defence, and partly because we kept winning the ball in dangerous positions, so we could be direct. I do not really want to see possession in those cases, I want to try to score. Still, I wanted to try to get the ball back a little more, and try to actually impose myself on the game. So I made 4 changes around 30 minutes. 

- Counter off. The attacking situations where we could counter from the counter press would be counters anyway. I do not need to encourage this. 

- DL back one notch to higher. Lets give ourselves a little more room to play in.

- Change the CM(S) to CM(D). Bring him deeper to I have a double pivot and always one more man available when in possession. This may also create space by forcing the Leverkusen midfield to push out.

- OIs on all central midfielders and defenders (including FBs) for more pressing and harder tackling. If they want to play with the ball in defence, make it as painful as possible for them. 

Here are the final stats from the match. 

Let's take away two things from this. The first is that we absolutely limited them offensively. They had one shot, and I think it was from a freekick header. You will get those on this ME, nothing to worry about. All that ball, and they created absolutely nothing with it from open play. The definition of sterile possession. 750 attempted passes, and nothing to show for it. This is what some people want their teams to do. I will argue it is pointless. Why make 750 passes if you create zero chances? On the other hand, we had 10 shots on target from 14 total. The AI defended well, and the keeper saved a number of good chances. We should have won by more however. I am not concerned, because if you create this many chances you will win most games. 

The goal, when it came, was Leverkusen failing to clear their lines. A cross from the right was headed clear, straight to Messi (who is now occupying the CM(A) role, as I want him as involved as possible). The Leverkusen defence had started to push up, but that had left Griezmann in space from the IW(A) role. Messi found him with a pass and he volleyed home. At least it was not a far post header! We were good for this win.

Finally, just to hammer home the possession with intent thing, lets look at heatmaps. 

Leverkusen:

Barcelona:

All that possession is in their own half, more or less. The highest passing combinations were between their defenders and goalkeeper. There could not penetrate my defence at all, as you can see by the absolute paucity of touches in my final third. This would be good if they were defending a 1 goal lead, because I would have to commit players to get the ball, and leave myself vulnerable. However here, it is pointless. What are they achieving except for pretty passing numbers. And let's stress that this is because of the way I am set up. I do not allow them to have the ball in my half. 

My heat map is nowhere near a pretty as last time, but again look at the areas where we have the ball. It is almost exclusively in the opposition half. You see a big not on the right and left which is build up through the CM(D) and the DLP(D). We probed down the right a lot because my RB kept getting tonnes of space on his overlap. 40% possession vs 60%. You tell me which you would rather have had in this game. 

One thing you may have noted from this is that if we are trailing and a team plays like Leverkusen did (and indeed as Real Madrid did in my loss to them), we are going to struggle because we cannot impose ourselves well enough. This is a flaw in the 451, I think. Not enough pressure. We will need a plan B for these situations where we have players higher up the pitch by default. It is always important to think about where you are weak, not just where you are strong and have done well. Seeing things work is gratifying and people like that. Finding where things did not work is, to me, far more important for the future development. We have noted this, let's see where it goes. 

[Vizzini]

Again, great post! I would agree with the notion that a more top-heavy formation as plan-b would help apply more pressure, but of course this could lead to gaps elsewhere (risk vs. reward), I think it also depends on the other teams role and formation. In this case for example it would be interesting to know what kind of role the DM plays for Leverkusen. If it were a playmaker it could be possible to mark him out of the game by moving one of the midfielders to an AM position.

[robot_skeleton]

Do you have problems with the midfield staying deep and the the striker pressing the opp. Goalkeeper like a maniac? I could never make the off the ball part of 4-5-1 work in FM20.

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, Vizzini said:

Again, great post! I would agree with the notion that a more top-heavy formation as plan-b would help apply more pressure, but of course this could lead to gaps elsewhere (risk vs. reward), I think it also depends on the other teams role and formation. In this case for example it would be interesting to know what kind of role the DM plays for Leverkusen. If it were a playmaker it could be possible to mark him out of the game by moving one of the midfielders to an AM position.

If I were to use this kind of plan B, it would be all risk over reward. I would use it when I really needed a goal or really needed the ball. I will play around with the number of central attack duties too. In principle I think a 4321 setup from the 451 would be better at getting pressure as there are 3 central attacking players then. Kinda hard with Barcelona though, as I would have to work out what to do with Griezmann if he stayed on a flank. It is something I want to explore, but I want to get a handle on the 4231 part first.

I am fairly sure he was a DLP, although it is hard to tell. He was either a DLP or on defend duty in a different role, given how deep he would drop to get the ball. I would probably have just stuck the CM(A) to mark him, which achieves the same thing at the cost of the packed midfield. In the end, I was creating enough good chances in this game that I did not feel the need to make changes. Leverkusen were creating more problems than they solved with their style. I should have been more proactive against Real Madrid, but it was my second game so I was still feeling things out. 

2 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

Do you have problems with the midfield staying deep and the the striker pressing the opp. Goalkeeper like a maniac? I could never make the off the ball part of 4-5-1 work in FM20.

The attack duty midfielders tend to press a little higher, so I usually have the striker, CM(A) and IW(A) pressing. This is the reason I have the CM(S) in most cases as well, since he will be higher up the pitch and more likely to press. Wanting to get pressure is one of the reasons I have maxed LOE and DL settings. This will push the midfield further up and you will see more pressing. I do not get a huge amount of pressure, it is true, but it is enough. It is a more measured press, it feels. Some members of the midfield go and press, others stay and do not. It means that there are less viable escape routes for the opposition defenders to get the ball forward in a controlled manner. Which is one of the reasons I think I am seeing so much sterile possession against me. Not quite enough pressure from the press to win the ball, but enough cover in midfield to stop them getting out anyway. Maybe we should call it a contain press.

[Elliath]

Wow, great topic!
I was just yesterday scrolling through THOG's Lines and Diamonds and noticed 4-5-1 with winger in AM strata. I started to think about the variability of flat midfield trio and BAM!, you made this post to give me more food for thought. Thank you and please continue to create content like this. It is absolutely awesome!

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Elliath said:

I was just yesterday scrolling through THOG's Lines and Diamonds and noticed 4-5-1 with winger in AM strata. I started to think about the variability of flat midfield trio and BAM!, you made this post to give me more food for thought. Thank you and please continue to create content like this. It is absolutely awesome!

It is an interesting system, but it has it's issues, as I am learning. I will try to write something about that if I can work out how to mitigate those flaws. Well I will write anyway, but I would rather have a solution to hand!

[sporadicsmiles]

 

Checking the board happiness, and I see this. Mixed messages much! 

Just a bit of fun, I guess this is a reference to a couple of 1-0 games in a row. 

[Guest]

Great thread and I have set up with a 4-5-1 variant in my Hertha save with some different and some of the same aspects as yours but the absolute aim is the same, possession with intent and seeing some similar results to yours. Hamburgs heat map below.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[sporadicsmiles]

Love that heat map! I am finding the 451 a lot of fun to play with. Total domination of a match without having the all that much of the ball. 

[Boss]

How do you guys read/interpret heat maps exactly? I get the rough idea of them but not great at reading them with regards to my tactic and what it does/doesn’t do well

[sporadicsmiles]

38 minutes ago, Boss said:

How do you guys read/interpret heat maps exactly? I get the rough idea of them but not great at reading them with regards to my tactic and what it does/doesn’t do well

In this case I am using it purely to see where my side has the ball, and where the AI has the ball. In this case because the AI is tending to have high possession against me, I want to see if that is dangerous. Possession mostly in their own half is not dangerous, possession in my half is much more concerning. 

So in my heat maps for the AI sides, you can see that while they have the ball more than me, they have it close to their own goal. That is what I want to see here, because possession in your own half is generally not a threat and can give me chances if we can win it back. 

For my own heat maps, I want to see the opposite. I want to have most of the ball in the opposition half. Especially since we tend not to have a lot of it. I want my possession to be threatening, so that when we lose the ball we generally do it attacking the goal. This is the conclusions I can draw from the maps. If I am playing a game and I notice I have poor possession and the AI has it in my half, this is a cause for concern. And I would have to take steps to prevent that. The possession battle is not about pure numbers, but also where you have the ball. The Leverkusen game, for instance, the AI made over 700 pass attempts, but the vast were very far from my goal.

You can also look at passing combination here, which tells you who is going most of the passes and where. In most of the games I have played all the AI passing is between defenders, goalkeeper and deep lying midfielders. Which means they are trying to play from defence and simply they cannot. We have blocked them. Mine tend to show interplay either on the flanks in opposition territory, or between the two deeper midfielders. 

[sporadicsmiles]

Well, we are the most clinical teams on the planet.

I have decided we deserve this title. I have managed to turn myself into the anti-Barcelona. Giving up huge number of passes and possession for clinical efficiency. I will do one more game, and then I ask for some advice from you guys about how to proceed. 

Let's look at another tough game. Home to Sevilla. We should win, but this is not a poor side. Can we continue to reproduce our style? Well, you all can guess that answer. Let's look at a summary.

A 1-0 win is quite disappointing, but Sevilla defended very well in this game, and our finishing was not great. It happens, I guess. We won, and that is what matters. Sevilla will set up with a cautious 4141 DM wide. We know what that means by now. Since apparently everyone in the game tries to play out from the back (that is what I have seen so far anyway), they are going to pass the ball around at the back, and we will try to make sure they do nothing with it.

Match stats show you we absolutely dominated this game while definitely making the most of our possession. Again, the possession stats are an entirely misleading way to discuss what happens in this match. We gave up 63% possession and 875 passes. And they had one shot on target, which was a header late on (naturally, I rarely concede a goal that is not a cross or set play). By this point, you can tell what is coming. When we look at the heat map for Sevilla, this is what we see.

Now they did manage to get a small amount of possession in my half, but mostly they were passing the ball around their end of the pitch. Sterile possession, the very definition of it. You can almost count the number of touches they had in my third of the field. This is a wonderful way to defend, I have found. We have built a wall, and you will not cross it. 

Here is our heat map. It is again not that pretty, but we have the ball in their half almost as much as we have it in our own. We keep the ball around the edge of their defensive third. You will notice we tend to attack down the flanks. That is part of FM20, and is also helped by the fact we play wider and we are attacking both flanks. 

And now I ask for your advice.

So here are a summary of the results so far..

Safe to say, this is a successful experiment. Perhaps a little too successful (although I am still second in the league because Real Madrid have only dropped 2 points). This is not to brag, but I want to see how well this works for teams who are not Barcelona. So I want to branch out, and I wondered what you guys would like to see? 

• Which team would you like to see me try this tactic with? 

Let's be aiming for someone who is not at the top of their league. Preferably with players who can actually play in the positions I use. Let's hear your ideas.

[OJ403]

Firstly fantastic thread mate, you do come up with the goods time and time again. I'll definitely be taking elements and ideas from you into my save for sure

And I've got a few ideas:

Arsenal could be interesting, they seem to be ideal for this and aren't quite at the top of the league but could still get there. Ozil in the more attacking midfielder-esque role and Pepe coming in off the one side and Aubameyang off the other with Lacazette up top, or Aubameyang up top and someone else wide. Although they might be too top end. Sides like Wolves and Sheffield United could be good fun too. Similar could be said in the Championship, although there the more top end teams would probably suit best. I think it would be most interesting to see this in a more competitive league (as in the Premier League, Serie A or the Bundesliga), where more sides are looking to beat and match you than in Spain. This would be true of the Championship too, its probably one of my favourite leagues to manage in as its so competitive and almost every side is trying to play their game and take points from you. Sides such as Brentford, Bristol and Blackburn would be good as they seem to suit the shape and generally style quite well and could quite conceivably be anywhere in the middle to top third of the league, oh and obviously I have to recommend Derby too...

It would also be interesting to see the development of the 4-1-4-1 type variation as well, wherever you end up

And once again cheers mate for a great thread!

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I love this! It perfectly demonstrates the meaning of the thread title "Possession with intent". 

Keep up the good work 

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Firstly fantastic thread mate, you do come up with the goods time and time again. I'll definitely be taking elements and ideas from you into my save for sure

Cheers. I wanted to try something different and extract a little joy from the game for myself an others. And this is something I rarely see people trying to achieve and misunderstanding how to use possession to win. I will admit I never expected it to work quite this well. 

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Arsenal could be interesting, they seem to be ideal for this and aren't quite at the top of the league but could still get there. Ozil in the more attacking midfielder-esque role and Pepe coming in off the one side and Aubameyang off the other with Lacazette up top, or Aubameyang up top and someone else wide

Arsenal could be fun. Although Ozil does not really fit in too well (I can just try to sell him). Maybe as the CM(A), which extracted excellent football from Messi. I used to always do an Arsenal save since they were always underachieving and usually gave you a good transfer budget. 

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Sides like Wolves and Sheffield United could be good fun too. Similar could be said in the Championship, although there the more top end teams would probably suit best.

You could pretty much choose any mid table English side I guess for this! I do like Sheffield United this season, they have been a joy to watch and the best story of the Premier league. A sadder story for me than Liverpool not winning the title would be Sheffield United not getting into Europe at the end of the season. And as a Huddersfield fan, I could always try to bring them back from the downward spiral they are in (this also takes Leeds off the board =D). Bristol is the biggest city never to have a team in the Premier League, I think (I could be wrong there?). Which would also be fun, as it is a challenge and an achievement if it worked. I have many things to consider!

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

It would also be interesting to see the development of the 4-1-4-1 type variation as well, wherever you end up

I have plans for a 4141 variant, and also a 4321 variant. The former is probably similar to set up to this one, I would just have to work out the midfield balanced. I'd expect similar results. The 4321 would demand quite conservative and narrow wide roles, which does not suit Barcelona at all (where you want Dembele and Griezmann attacking the box). This would be the most challenging to set up as well, since I have never used a regular 4321.

 

[Guest]

Again, great thread and again I am using a slight variation on yours with Hertha Berlin but the goal is exactly the same and it is giving the media in my game fits as I am bottom of the league in possession but went in to the winter break top of the league by a point. What I am seeing a lot of with this is the balance of very good defensive solidity with very basic defenders compared to the more gifted teams and some great attacking play that carves teams up. I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

 

For my big game with Bayern who are far superior to me I wanted to play my style but would happily have settled for the draw away from home. Their goal and only CCC came early and from a brain fart from me not dropping my defensive line a tad and after I did did that they were strangled to only 3 shots for the rest of the match and 3 of their six shots were outside of the box. I had serious issues creating myself but were it not for my silliness we would probably have taken all three points.

 

For my first foray in to the Champions League I have topped my group conceding 3 goals and having scored 14, 2 of those goals conceded were in a game where I rested most of my team. The results have been the same albeit I only faced Ajax, Porto and Galatasary so none of the really big boys yet. Only one team below me in possession stats made it to Group Stages and that was Krasnodar who were  in the Group of Death.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[chiani.ignacio]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

Maybe someone wants to read that thread. 

Although, I tried with Liverpool (I know is maybe the better team in the game?) in the last part of the first season and it works great! 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by chiani.ignacio

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

it is giving the media in my game fits as I am bottom of the league in possession but went in to the winter break top of the league by a point.

I love the questions you get about "do you feel bad about conceding so much possession? You must be amazed you won after being dominated" or some such statement. To which I want to politely smile and point out that we won 3-0 without conceding a shot. The game sure does not expect you to win comfortably without possession. Although I have to say the AI is very accommodating in this, it does not give up the idea of playing from the back no matter how much it gets them nowhere. This would be a lot less effective if the AI actually were like "yeah you know what long ball over that stupidly high press and to hell with possession". 

I cannot even think who this style would represent in real life. 

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

That was also the thread that inspired me (and is linked below your post now). My next task is to start using this flexibility a bit more. Right now I have not needed to do anything other than think about how to win, because Barcelona are a bit too good.

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

This is a thing of beauty. You must have been delighted with this. That is absolute domination of a game. 

[Jambo98]

2 hours ago, chiani.ignacio said:

Maybe someone wants to read that thread. 

Although, I tried with Liverpool (I know is maybe the better team in the game?) in the last part of the first season and it works great! 

 

Hah man that notification took me down memory lane..... 2014!! How has that happened...5 and a half years ago. I have no idea how you even found that thread but fair play. 

Man i loved that tactic. Every FM since, i try it out early doors in some way. I remember it off by heart - Central CM was an attempt at a "central winger", lots of dribbling, striker always F9 to bring the lines close. 2 other CMs both DLP to drop back and create the staggered 4231 shape. Wide guys were.......hmm i dont think we even had the IW position in the game back then, so WM i guess, but basically the IW before it existed, attacking the box at an angle, and the fullbacks were CWB to take then replace them on the flanks.

It has never worked since, or more likely in recent years i have not been willing to put in the effort. With the new types of roles available on FM now, i assume you could be even more creative and versatile. 

For me, i fell out of love with the tactical side of FM a couple of years ago. I felt like they added way to many options and that it reached the point where i was no longer seeing the effect of things i changed in a a clear way. I also felt like the game became about how could throw together the best random selection of options to try and beat the ME. In about 2016 i posted some feedback on the beta about how i felt the game lacked in a key area - i always felt like i was playing against an algorithm, not another team / manager. Now, dont get me wrong.....its a computer game, i am always playing an algorithm.........  But what i meant was the game lacked realism in some important ways. Example, lets say i am managing Athletic (I am...) and i have a game against Valencia. I have an injury crisis. My 3 first choice LBs are injured, so i have to play a youth, or a winger out of position. In that situation, Valencia should target that spot in my team. They should overload the right hand side on attack, at least initially. That is just one small example but the game never has any of that realism..... 

Nowdays i play FM like a DoF most of the time. Whack some basic tactics on and rarely watch the games (i refuse to instant result but i just dont look at the FM tab when the match is on. THat is only made worse this year by the ME being absolutely terrible to watch. The times i do watch a match i just cringe throughout at what they have done. Maybe i should watch in 2D or something, but its horrible to watch how chances are created on FM20 for me.

anyways, rant over........ great thread, really nice read, well thought out and good to see you puting the amount of effort and thought into this

[Zemahh]

22 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Which team would you like to see me try this tactic with?

Thanks for a great thread!

How far do you think you could take this system with a lower league underdog, for example? I imagine it requires very technical players (sharp passes with players stretched wide and thus little room for error).

[sporadicsmiles]

9 hours ago, Zemahh said:

How far do you think you could take this system with a lower league underdog, for example? I imagine it requires very technical players (sharp passes with players stretched wide and thus little room for error).

The main place for error would be the very high defensive line if you were playing with weaker players. Giving the ball away could be deadly. Honestly, I have not got that far ahead in my thinking (and I rarely play in the lower leagues).

You would probably just want to mitigate some of the risk inherent here. A lower defensive line (which means the AI will get closer to your goal on average), less possession oriented instructions.You would want to be more direct and have simple plans for scoring. Indeed, one thing I can see working for lower leagues is playing with a standard DL and a lower LOE, drawing a team in and then winning the ball from them as they attack you (it will always be hard to attack a solid 4-5 bank of players) and using a pacy striker and wide players to counter attack. 

You should not read this thread as this is the only way to set up. It puts the building blocks in place for you expand around and play with different ways to set things up. 

[nexting]

Great tactic with Barcelona, my first ever undefeated season on any FM.

Will give it a try with a lesser team now.

Edited March 31, 2020 by nexting

[sporadicsmiles]

Just an update here. I am currently playing around with the formation using different teams, but I have not really found anything particularly interesting to show with it yet. So I will try to play around with the flexibility side of things now, changing the roles and duties to achieve different types of football for different scenarios. 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Just an update here. I am currently playing around with the formation using different teams, but I have not really found anything particularly interesting to show with it yet. So I will try to play around with the flexibility side of things now, changing the roles and duties to achieve different types of football for different scenarios. 

Tried your tactic verbatim in my last game of the season. Not the strongest team to try it against but the result speaks for itself.

 

Hertha

Hannover

[jc577]

@sporadicsmiles Great thread as always, certainly got me thinking! Recently i've found it pretty challenging to replicate possession-based football in the current ME, but this thread has inspired me to give it another try (well that, and the abundance of time everyone now has ) 

One thing this thread highlights for me though, is that the way mentalities work in FM really needs an overhaul. The ability of lesser teams to play on a counter mentality (which sets CBs to more direct passing by default) yet still keep the ball at the back despite an intense press is ludicrous. It's not even as if they're keeping the ball deep to invite the press and play through it (which would be kinda cool), they just never attempt to progress it. Anyway rant over!

With Milan i've opted for a two minor changes so far:

PF-S --> DLF-S as Ibra is far more suited to the role, especially it has age. A Treq is another interesting option, but I fear it may roam too much and not link play in central areas as i'd like. 

I've set the two outer CMs as a CM-D and DLP-S. Main reason for doing so was that I want the playmaker to have a higher mentality than a defend duty would provide, being more aggressive in his passing and maybe even contributing to a few assists. The rest of the team is pretty much the same. 

I am also considering a true 4231 variant modelled after Ajax's 2018/19 campaign, with Ibra in the Tadic role and Paqueta operating as a hybrid 10/SS a la Van de Beek. 

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Tried your tactic verbatim in my last game of the season. Not the strongest team to try it against but the result speaks for itself.

 

Hertha

Hannover

I love it, the perfect example. I really enjoy this play style too.

I do begin to wonder if we are just uncovering a ME flaw here as well. In principle the AI should not be aimlessly keeping the ball for the whole match like this, when they see it does not work. It seems to expose the way AI teams are using play out of defence. I mean, if I was to play my own system I would just have short GK distribution, counter and direct passes into space. Draw in the press, hit the ball through it, have lots of space to run into. The AI does not seem to ever adapt like this. It is why I am surprised it is so successful (since originally I was just trying to make different shapes from a 451), because there are obvious weaknesses I can immediately see. 

[sporadicsmiles]

2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

One thing this thread highlights for me though, is that the way mentalities work in FM really needs an overhaul. The ability of lesser teams to play on a counter mentality (which sets CBs to more direct passing by default) yet still keep the ball at the back despite an intense press is ludicrous. It's not even as if they're keeping the ball deep to invite the press and play through it (which would be kinda cool), they just never attempt to progress it. Anyway rant over!

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

4 minutes ago, jc577 said:

PF-S --> DLF-S as Ibra is far more suited to the role, especially it has age. A Treq is another interesting option, but I fear it may roam too much and not link play in central areas as i'd like. 

The striker role is open from interpretation, as I have not really played with it much. A PF made sense when I was thinking about the style, but I think it is not critical. A Treq may not be the best for the pressing side of things though, and you need high pressure in this tactic, at least a little bit.

 

5 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I've set the two outer CMs as a CM-D and DLP-S. Main reason for doing so was that I want the playmaker to have a higher mentality than a defend duty would provide, being more aggressive in his passing and maybe even contributing to a few assists. The rest of the team is pretty much the same. 

I really am using the CM(A) as the main creative role really. I was playing Messi there as Barcelona, and at the moment Talisca as Guangzhou in a save I am playing in a super league file I created. He is the player who will run through the centre and try to make passes, shoot, score, etc. I love me a good CM(A). Almost always have one if I can. The DLP(D) is then my pivot (or if paired with a CM(D) I have a double pivot). As you say though, no reason you cannot invert those two roles. 

8 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I am also considering a true 4231 variant modelled after Ajax's 2018/19 campaign, with Ibra in the Tadic role and Paqueta operating as a hybrid 10/SS a la Van de Beek. 

You should let everyone know how it goes, if you try it. I am not a pure 4231 person, really. I rarely go for top heavy formations. I am a defensive guy first and foremost, and I never feel quite comfortable with a 4231!

[jc577]

9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

Couldn't agree more. 

9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The striker role is open from interpretation, as I have not really played with it much. A PF made sense when I was thinking about the style, but I think it is not critical. A Treq may not be the best for the pressing side of things though, and you need high pressure in this tactic, at least a little bit.

Very good point you make here. Although Ibra has 10 for team-work and 7 for work-rate, so he won't do much pressing either way  I do have him as as Treq in a 4231 though, where we might be able to get away with it due to the attacking trident behind him. 

12 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I really am using the CM(A) as the main creative role really. I was playing Messi there as Barcelona, and at the moment Talisca as Guangzhou in a save I am playing in a super league file I created. He is the player who will run through the centre and try to make passes, shoot, score, etc. I love me a good CM(A). Almost always have one if I can. The DLP(D) is then my pivot (or if paired with a CM(D) I have a double pivot). As you say though, no reason you cannot invert those two roles. 

The CM-A is also one of my favourites roles, both in FM and IRL... I think a lot of people just associate the role with scoring goals (which it does of course) but it can be so much more than that, player dependent of course. Paqueta will be doing his best Messi impression i'm sure, but it doesn't hurt to have another creative player if he's having an off day. 

16 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You should let everyone know how it goes, if you try it. I am not a pure 4231 person, really. I rarely go for top heavy formations. I am a defensive guy first and foremost, and I never feel quite comfortable with a 4231!

Honestly i've created so many tactics I am not sure which one to use. The 4231 is by far the riskiest, but I have made some tweaks to try and dial it down a bit:

Firstly, i've removed higher tempo, for two reasons. Considering its top-heavy nature, ball distribution is likely to be forward thus we may move the ball quicker as a byproduct of the formation. Also with so many players advanced, losing the ball in transition or in dangerous areas high up the pitch could be detrimental, but playing on positive the tempo is still relatively quick. 

Secondly, the tactic doesn't have any overlaps. Wingbacks on support should be aggressive enough for this formation, only getting into attacking positions high in the opposition's half when possession has been properly consolidated. 

The more I write about it, the more I want to use it  we shall see!

[Jambo98]

Rebooting the 451 in Florence 

After reading through this, spurred by the tag of my ancient thread........i decided i would have my first go at proper tactic creation on this FM really. I really detest what they have done to this ME, but it is what is so i will see if i can get some enjoyment out of my old favourite formation. 

The approach of making the 451 into a 4231 has obviously already been done and indeed that is what i did first time round, so this time i was messing around and looking at something entire differnet - my modus operandi here is "attack" - i want to attack teams from deep, whilst using this 451 formation which in theory is defensively solid.  FM will tell you the formation is the shape when defending (it is not really, but more on that later.....) so in theory without the ball, we have lots of cover in midfield, with the ball, well thats when we can get creative. 

I was fiddling a bit with asymetric shapes, and decided to try and create a shape losely based on the old "WW" formation.  Because well, why not......

 

Choosing a team
Ok, back a step, i started a new save and i decided to go with a mid table side. I chose Serie a because i like the league and have not played much in it this year. Mused through a few squads, and decided to go with Fiorentina. I have had fun saves with them in years gone by and they have a relatively interesting squad (even if about half of it is on loan...)

To some extent,  at a club like this, you are going to have to fit a system round the players you have, at least loosely. There is not the budget for a rebuild and with half the squad being on loan, there is little scope to move people out.  I did have 15m to spend and a bit of wage budget, but i had decided to blow it on one signing. Enough waffle, here is my primary setup:

 

Formation

 

Now, the obvious way to setup a  WW in attack would be more like this:
 

Indeed, i have that loaded up as a backup tactic, but my reasons for choosing the first option are:

1) The players - Dalbert is my best option at LB and he is not even really a defender, and not suited to playing IWB. He is clearly best suited to going forward like a madman

2) I am a bit of an anarchist, and i wanted to create it using chaos not traditional structure..........

 

Roles / Duties Summary

So the roles / duties i chose:

GK - Nothing fancy here, we are not playing a high line and Dragowksi is not a great looking sweeper keeper

CDs - ALso nothing fancy for now

RB - IWB (D) - Ok the first interesting bit. I do have Pol Lirola who is an excellent attacking RB, but i wanted balance. Dalbert will be our attacker from defence, so Caceres, more a natural CD, will play here as a much more defensive type. I could use him as FB(d) and almost set up a hybrid back 3 / 4 in the way Conte did with Italy but to help me create the WW, I have gone with the IWB. This should position him in front of the centrebacks but the presence of the DLP should offset him nicely. Defend duty is what you need to make an IWB function in that way (in the way Pep created it with Lahm)  - the other duties send him forward beyond the CDM strata and are not what i want

LB - CWB(A) - our marauding Roberto Carlos Lite (very lite....) - I want this guy absolutely bombing forward and creating goals / chances from wide. Not decided between CWB and just WB yet, will see how both play but initially the CWB has not made him drift infield (it adds "roam from position) 

LM - WM(D) - this guy is the final part of my defensive "W" - i originally wanted WP(S) for this role, and its specifically why i bought Bonaventura. Perfect for that role. However my initial games showed WP(S) was going forward a lot, like almost as much as a CM(A) which was odd behaviour, so setting him up as WM(D) for now to get the shape, and maybe add some instructions later

LCM - CM(A) -  one of the base points of my attacking "W" - and like a few others above i love this role and how versatile it can be. Want him to work in tandem with the CWB and create triangles between him and both the F9 and WM. 

CCM - DLP(D) - The central "pivote" and out holding man. In defence he plays in the DM strata, which goes against what SI tell you happens with defending shape / formation, but i like that it happens Sits deep, plays simple passes and keeps us secure

RCM  - CAR(S) -  I will be honest, this role was originally envisaged as being what i thought a CAR does - given that the DLP to his left will always drop back, and the W to his right will be advanced, i thought this guy would cover the latteral space to each side (which is litterally how the role is described in game) - he does not. I guess that only works when the game knows there is no one next to him in "formation" terms. That said, the role seems to play quite similar to a CM(s) so i have just left it for now

RM - W(A) - I want this guy attacking high and running lots, stretching the play, delivering crosses. Along with Dalbert, he is the outer point of our "W" and will contribute goals, beacause contrary to what some people think, wingers do get in the box when the ball is on the other flank. IW would forec him infield too early 

ST - F9(S) - partly to suit Ribery, but also because in this formation i feel i want the striker dropping as deep as possible in the early build up phase. also a nod to my original system from 2014.......

Team instructions (is it even called that now?)

Nothing fancy here. In possession i want us passing it short to take advantage of the links the WW gives, and of course hoofing from defence or shooting from miles out are not what i want. Lower tempo is questionable but i like it a bit more controlled to let the transition happen and let the attacking shape form itself.

The "focus down right" paired with "overlap left" is a bit of an experiment to see if it helps create space for Dalbert 

In transition, we will counter and counter press, mainly because we are well set up to have lots of runners for deep - i believe counter attacking is most effective when you have runners, not when you have a top heavy formation with people already stood up field. Counter press is moderate (we dont have a high line) and is just there as again, once we have sent all these runners forward, it makes sense that they are in position to press. 

I have not added anything for out of possession yet, it has not been the focus

Summary

This is not really about me trying to create something which goes a season unbeaten, or wins the league with Fiorentina, its more about having some fun and seeing what i can create with the base formation, by applying different roles, duties and instructions. To that end, please dont try copying it and applying it to your team to "see how it works". Feel free to try aspects of it or comment / discuss. 

Will do another post in a bit with how it has shaped up in the initial games 

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

After reading through this, spurred by the tag of my ancient thread........i decided i would have my first go at proper tactic creation on this FM really. I really detest what they have done to this ME, but it is what is so i will see if i can get some enjoyment out of my old favourite formation. 

Glad to see you writing! I'm feeling you with the ME, but I too made my peace with it for now, and I may as well try to enjoy the game.

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

FM will tell you the formation is the shape when defending (it is not really, but more on that later.....) so in theory without the ball, we have lots of cover in midfield, with the ball, well thats when we can get creative. 

I noticed this too, but I have not really mentioned it yet. The formation I described looks a lot more like a 4231 when we defend than when we attack. Probably a combination of the pressing and roles/duties. Probably worth a little write up as well. 

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

I was fiddling a bit with asymetric shapes, and decided to try and create a shape losely based on the old "WW" formation.  Because well, why not......

Nice!

I actually love the way you have set this up. You achieve the shape you intend, but with players moving into positions that they normally you would not expect them to be in. I think this will likely cause mayhem and be a pain in the backside to defend against. One thing I guess to check is that the W(A) is getting into good positions to receive deep crosses from the marauding CWB. Depending on how fast you counter, a F9 may not be a huge presence in the box. 

If you wanted to try something even more funky on the left, you could have a IWB(A) and a MEZ(A). So the wing back is cutting inside and being the bottom right of the W, and the MEZ is the top left. No idea if that would work out nicely, but it would really be blowing up expectations. 

[Jambo98]

6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I noticed this too, but I have not really mentioned it yet. The formation I described looks a lot more like a 4231 when we defend than when we attack. Probably a combination of the pressing and roles/duties. Probably worth a little write up as well. 

Yeah its very noticeable in my setup. We absolutely defend as a 4141 and fall into that shape when we do not have possession. Here is the average positions map without the ball from my most recent game:

Now average positions i suppose dont tell the entire story, but when they are specifically "without the ball", its a pretty good indication.

Here is an in game "moment" shot showing though our shape as the other team start to attack. Same thing

 

 

The DLP (78) is dropping off whilst the CM(a), number 8, is pressing, our shape is pretty decent, although why my centrebacks are allowing that attacker to stand in between them, is a subject for another time.....

 

7 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I actually love the way you have set this up. You achieve the shape you intend, but with players moving into positions that they normally you would not expect them to be in. I think this will likely cause mayhem and be a pain in the backside to defend against. One thing I guess to check is that the W(A) is getting into good positions to receive deep crosses from the marauding CWB. Depending on how fast you counter, a F9 may not be a huge presence in the box. 

If you wanted to try something even more funky on the left, you could have a IWB(A) and a MEZ(A). So the wing back is cutting inside and being the bottom right of the W, and the MEZ is the top left. No idea if that would work out nicely, but it would really be blowing up expectations. 

Thanks, yeah the mayhem was part of the idea, or i suppose if we want to be more professional...... i wanted to be "unpredictable"  

 

Yeah thats an interesting concept, and might help resolve a problem i currently have, more on that in the next post. I think youm ean the wing back becomes bottom left of the W though? I do love the MEZ (A) role. I might set up a 3rd system with something like that. (NB - the fact we can only load up / have 3 tactics is another bugbear - pep used i think 23 in his last season at Bayern.......even fifa lets me have 5 ffs!)

My original scratched out idea was actually not he WW at all, i was a bit more........random  I originally planned for our attacking shape to be like this:

 

The W should be a bit further forward, but essentially it would stagger the players across many zones of the pitch. 

 

[Jambo98]

Does it work (early findings)

hmm......... sort of, kinda, maybe.......let me analyse some. 

First up, we ignore pre-season entirely. it helps get the team familiar of course and improves fitness, but the games are worthless, the team never plays the same in pre-season as they do when the season starts in FM in my experience.

So we jump to our first competitive game, which is a nice easy home tie in the cup against Serie C Ravenna. 

So, about that W W shape............

 

Almost..... so the orange is the "defensive W" and in this game actually i was still using the WP(s) on the left of midfield, which explains why he is a tad high, but to be honest, i could live with that shape easily. I dont expect it to be totally symetrical afterall.....

Attacking wise (The blue / purple).......4 out of 5 look like a perfect W. Just that 5th one........id like it close to where the dotted blue line goes. It is, of course, the CWB. So in theory that was always going to be the toughest part if we look at purely average positions,  given his starting position is of course still at fullback. Whilst this map is "with the ball", it of course takes account of positive transitions - the CWB is always going to have to start from deeper when we win the ball. 

For comparison, here is the same map from my 3rd league game, by which time i had made the change to the LM role to be WM(d) 

Same issue, and interestingly the change of role has made little difference at all to the position ove the LM, which is food for thought. I need to do some more in-depth analysis of the stats from each role at some point. Again though the CWB is actually, on average, barely ahead of the IW(D) on the other side, which is troubling.

Ok, so what about some more analysis on Dalbert, our resident CWB. From the same game as above, lets look at where he makes his passes from:
 

Ok so this is not that easy to interpret at first , because i am pretty sure all the dots where he is litterally on the sideline, are him taking throw ins, which i dont care about, and are not a "pass" surely by any definition other than the antiquated FM stats analysis tool. but overall, a good few passes higher up the pitch.

What about where he recieves passes?

Ok so again, quite a few of them in the opposing half, if not right in behind perhaps.

So is it just a trick of the eye on the graphs? What about in game, what do i see then...........well, yes i am seeing an issue at times. He does attack well at times, particularly when we have the ball with say our left sided defender or or DLP facing to the left, but its wierd......its like he runs forward and hits an invisible wall and just stops. He is really reluctant when we attack at times, to go beyond the LM. Despite the instructions / role / duty  Here is one freeze frame to try and show what i mean 

In this situation, we have worked it down the right hand side and Chiesa is driving into the box, but Dalbert, circled, is staying behind the LM, despite the huge space in front of him he could be attacking. This seems to be happening quite a bit. Its the one aspect of the attacking shape, i am not too pleased about.

Is it having a big impact on how effective he is, well here are his stats from competitive games thus far:

Ironically, as you can see in the Cagliari game i used for the heatmaps above, he actually had a goal and an assist! He is not involved in anywhere near as many passes, interestingly, as the IWB is on the other side. To some extent that is expected, the IWB becomes an integral part of our possession, but his contributions do compare well to Chiesa on the Right wing. 

For a bit of fun, here are the highlights of the goals he was involved in. Love the build up on the first one, 2nd one also nice example of what he can do.

 

(edit, ok thats not the camera i wanted to use / show.........another aspect of FM which is a bit of a let down, this ability to upload custom highlights!) 

enough waffle for now...........

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Jambo98 said:

In this situation, we have worked it down the right hand side and Chiesa is driving into the box, but Dalbert, circled, is staying behind the LM, despite the huge space in front of him he could be attacking. This seems to be happening quite a bit. Its the one aspect of the attacking shape, i am not too pleased about.

Could it have something to do with the overlap instruction on the left? Maybe it encourages him to wait until the ball is on the flank before rushing past. I was never entirely clear on all the things this instruction does. 

Great posts by the way.

[Guest]

Great posts Jambo, one thing I think a lot of people who struggle tactically(and I include myself in that) have is that they don't make use of the tools that we have available to us often enough, if at all. Using the average positions and other analysis tools available have helped me immensely when resolving problems with y tactics.

[howard moon]

16 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

I'd been thinking this whilst reading through the thread. This isn't a comment on your setup, but the AI. 

One of the biggest frustrations I've always had with the ME is the way that any team can suddenly start passing the ball like Guardiola-era Barca - but in their own half, when parking the bus. This is not how teams defend irl and it totally skews stats for possession and passing etc. in game.

Somebody in the past decided to tie passing and vertical position on the pitch (how high or deep the team is) together in this way, so AI defending will end up passing short and safe in their own half. I would say that these should be separated - most teams try to keep possession in the opponents half, but the tactical presets to make this happen for the AI also leads to risky passing.

[Jambo98]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Could it have something to do with the overlap instruction on the left? Maybe it encourages him to wait until the ball is on the flank before rushing past. I was never entirely clear on all the things this instruction does. 

Great posts by the way.

Ah interesting thought, i mean logically it should not relate to that (an overlap instruction which stops someone going forward is just odd.........but i can see how FM logic might do that!)

Let me do some analysis on the next game without that instruction.......

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Great posts Jambo, one thing I think a lot of people who struggle tactically(and I include myself in that) have is that they don't make use of the tools that we have available to us often enough, if at all. Using the average positions and other analysis tools available have helped me immensely when resolving problems with y tactics.

Cheers man, and yeah its defo an underlooked aspect of the game. There is a lot more that SI could do both in term of making those tools easily accessible and also more user friendly and also adding better functionality (For example, overlay options between matches would be a good option). They could also do much more with the data analyst function in the game -what they offer currently in the game is nothing like what a DA would offer IRL. They would be doing some of the work on these tools and providing actual meaningful stuff. 

 

[Jambo98]

The CWB Problem - Removing Overlap, to make him overlap.......

Ok, so per the above posts, and as suggested by @sporadicsmiles i decided to try and remove the "overlap left" team instruction to try and get the CWB to be more advanced when we have possession, rather than just have him go when triggered by some specific set of criteria.

How did it go? Well ideally i would use the same match i used above as a base point and compare to one played just now with the instruction changed, but the analysis tool is a bit annoying in that it reverses direction for home / away matches (which makes some level of sense), which means its tought to create an overlay between a home and away game. So i went back and compared my last away game, to the away game i played just now:

Lets look at average positions first:

The top map is from an away match 2 games back, which had the "overlap" instruction, and the bottom one is from the game just played, without it. Now, on first glance, it has not made any difference at all really to the average position. Whilst there are some overall fluctuations, as you would expect given it was a different oppponent, different opposing formation, etc, the LB positioning is almost identical

That actually caught me off guard a bit, because i watched the most recent game in some detail, and i would have sworn it worked - i saw Dalbert flying forward many times, and he contributed to a lovely goal from it (more later), so lets look at passing maps to see if we can see anything else. 

Again, top one is from 2 matches back, bottom is from just now (NB - this is not perfect because in the first match, Dalbert was subbed at HT with an injury, which is why the volume looks so different - but im looking at the spread not the totaL)

Ok so in terms of the passes he made, if you can just about manage to visually / manually excluse the throw ins, then you can see there is clearly a bigger cluster in the opposing half, Good signs.

What about passes recieved, well with the same caveats (45mins sample size in the top game):
 

No throw ins to confuse this one - very clear that he is more involved in the final third, so that has to be good news. Perhaps the average positions map is not the best guide (since by definition, it is an "average" not an actual position he took up at key points)

So how about that attacking shape now, in an actual game "moment", lets have a look:

 

Good lord my drawing is bad........

That aside, the blue W looks more complete now. This is attacking and Dalbert has just released a cross, and you can see our attacking shape is lovely. The guy out of position to some extent now, is the LM (Ribery here - moved him back to LM after making a sub, just for fun). I had set his role back to WP(s) rather than WM(d) which might explain it. I can also live with that much more, because it adds to our attack if anything! I will keep an eye and mess around with that particularl role / position some more.

Here is a lovely little example of the move that still is taken from. This is the system in action:

 #5 (DLP - Badelj rotated in for this game) plays it off to Dalbert, who bombs on. Inside the box he finds our CM(a) - Agudelo (subbed on for Castrovilli) who has gone beyond the striker, he then lays it off to that very striker, Cutrone, who is arriving late and slams it home. Poetry in motion, or at least, a nice goal away to Genoa........

 

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, howard moon said:

Somebody in the past decided to tie passing and vertical position on the pitch (how high or deep the team is) together in this way, so AI defending will end up passing short and safe in their own half. I would say that these should be separated - most teams try to keep possession in the opponents half, but the tactical presets to make this happen for the AI also leads to risky passing.

I tend to agree, because if I have demonstrated anything here it is that short passing in your own half is definitely not safe nor a sound defensive strategy. The issues I see, really, is that players are too happy to go backwards with the ball, ignoring more progressive balls because they fall below some kind of threshold of riskiness. I also think the game gives a high weight to possession to show a team is doing well. So despite getting pounded by my team, the AI thinks it is fine because it has the ball a lot. This is speculation, but I strongly get this impression. Also from press interviews after you win comfortably with 35% possession. Although that is realistic because we put a huge stock in possession in real life. I blame Guardiola, he ruined football (note my tongue is very much in my cheek!)

41 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Ok, so per the above posts, and as suggested by @sporadicsmiles i decided to try and remove the "overlap left" team instruction to try and get the CWB to be more advanced when we have possession, rather than just have him go when triggered by some specific set of criteria.

Woo, I had intuition that was right! I only spotted this because I have been playing with the overlap and I noticed my RB would often wait before getting forward. But he was a WB(S) so I would expect him to do that anyway. So I was not sure. This is one of those situations where what a TI does simply is not clear. I can fully understand why people struggle and get frustrated when they first come into the game. The community here should try to make a thread where we discuss what some of the less obvious TIs do, with examples.

43 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Now, on first glance, it has not made any difference at all really to the average position.

Average position for an attacking fullback should always be around the half way line, unless you spend all your time attacking. Mostly because he shuttles from defensive line to attacking line and back. Can you get individual player heat maps? That would maybe show a little better where he spends his time. This is one of the reason I prefer to watch and make a judgement myself, because I do not know how the average is made, and there is no standard deviation (I wish there were some indication of that). 

46 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

That is a lovely goal. I love the overload on the left. That is so hard for the AI to deal with. Hell, that is hard for anyone to deal with!

[Jambo98]

Does it work (the results show)

So, apparently the chairman is not interested in pretty pictures, average positions and obscure 1950s Hungarian tactical references........

How is it actually working then? Not too badly, so far:

7 league games (plus 1 cup) and 6 wins. We conceded only 1 goal in that time which is nice. The goals scored could be better, but actually they would be if Pulgar had not missed pens in BOTH of the 1 - 0 wins (17 for pen taking as well.....) 

Its a small sample size, but 6 clean sheets and 6 wins in a row is pleasing. 2 of those were against very good teams in Roma and Napoli, who would expect to finish above me.

In terms of some more advanced stats, possession is........interesting:
 

We are18th in possession.........however, this only re-inforces what some have said in posts above - the ME is deeply flawed here. The top 3 in this table are all bottom half teams, and indeed top of it are SPAL. SPAL have lost all 7 games, and not only that, they have not even scored a goal this season  The absolute state of that.......

Passing wise, we are 8th in total passess which is ok, we are not overly about possession for the sake of it, but pleasingly, we do top the pass completion % table with 92%, which is a nod to the fact our spacial play is good and passing options are always on. 

That draw in the first match is a lovely example of what is wrong with this game  Here are a couple of screenshots of it:

Now, listen, fair enough, sometimes a team has 1 shot in a game and wins or draws - that happens in football. We had 13 shots, we were not clinical. But when did you ever see a team have 59% possession and only 1 shot  The lads at Opta would be at it for hours trying to find that. The heatmaps only make it worse

Essentially, Udinese set up in a 5122 (3 CB's, wingbacks and a CDM) and just passed it around the back.  My centrebacks totalled 38 passes between them in this match. Udinese centrebacks totalled 297 (that is not a typo....). Utterly baffling stuff.....

 

 

[sporadicsmiles]

Lovely work again Jambo, Nice to see that it is working as you planned. Some excellent results there!

1 hour ago, Jambo98 said:

Essentially, Udinese set up in a 5122 (3 CB's, wingbacks and a CDM) and just passed it around the back.  My centrebacks totalled 38 passes between them in this match. Udinese centrebacks totalled 297 (that is not a typo....). Utterly baffling stuff.....

The longer this thread goes on the more I am tempted to open a thread in the bugs forum about this. It is not really a bug, per se, but it is something in the ME that is really not working the way it should. 

[chiani.ignacio]

How is this system working against big teams for you? 

I'm playing with Liverpool, and struggle in some big matches against English teams. They create a lot of chances (me too btw). 

I'm making some tweaks in the midfield to see how I can play these matches. 

A thing I noticed is that de wide roles of the midfield (IW) tends to dribble a lot and run with the ball to often (it's hardcoded). I'm trying with another roles like WM or WP. 

Anyone used a RPM in the midfield?

Edited April 2, 2020 by chiani.ignacio