Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[cocoadavid]

On 25/11/2018 at 04:31, yonko said:

I think the quality of players is relevant to the level of competition you're playing with. 

For example, if you're playing in the EPL, you need the important attributes for possession (first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, decisions, teamwork, vision, off the ball) to be 14-15+. But if you're a division down those same attributes could be couple of points down, like 12-13+. And so on.

Lowering the tempo also helps with the control of the shooting btw. 

How do you feel about Be More Expressive vs Be More Disciplined? It seems like this edition the former also controls the roaming of the players since that TI has been removed, though it's still available separately as PI. However, I don't feel like Pep's players are roaming all that much. Probably only the ST and the 2 CMs individually or via roles (like MEZ and RPM for example).

It's difficult to pin down because the set up is basically structured and disciplined for the first 2 thirds and then in the final third there is freedom and fluidity (Thierry Henry's famous analysis on Sky before Pep took City job). I think we need to settle on the structured and disciplined part, while leaving the fluidity and freedom of the final third to player roles and individual attributes like vision, flair, off the ball, anticipation, decisions, etc.

But then again, before Pep took over, was anybody thinking of Sterling as the player he is today? I don't think so. Is it training? Is it tactical instructions? Probably both. Right? The Pep effect. Like Spain and Germany, England is benefitting from that now.

I think it's hard to replicate how much creative freedom Pep allows. As you've already said I also think that during the build up Pep's teams are structured and disciplined, however in the final third they are allowed to be creative and interchange positions. I remember Pep saying that he helps his team to reach the penalty area, but once they are already in the area, the players need to be creative. Until now I have left the creative freedom TI untouched because I'm really not sure what woud be the best choice to represent Pep's philosophy.

About Sterling... I think Guardiola made him a really good player. I think Pep regards players who are good on 1 on 1 situations, because quickness, flair and dribbling are talents that are hard to teach. But when a player has these skills, you can teach him how to position himself in certain situations, how to move off the ball, etc. I think it was the same with Douglas Costa at Bayern. Sterling and Costa were not the smartest players I think, but Guardiola taught them how to behave and move in certain situations. And thanks to Pep's intructions they might opt for the better choice when a decision is needed on the pitch. In an interview Costa said that before joining Bayern, Guardiola called him and said:  'Are you ready to open your mind and learn how to play football?' He likes to use these types of players on the wings. While in the middle he prefers more intelligent players who are given more creative freedom(for example De Bruyne).

[Ivan787]

Il 21/11/2018 in 12:45 , craiigman ha scritto:

Check out City's passing map/in possession map

There is one interesting thing to note about City passing map. They are the only big team that don't have the DM Player (Fernandinho) in the most completed pass. In addition no Silva neither KDB are in the most completed pass. This means that they are not playmaker (in terms of FM role).

[Gegenklaus]

57 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Interesting. How do you set his instruction for replicating his real movement?

Depends on the setup, but just WM(a) with Roam From Positions (gives the player license to find space inside/wide). If you want him central a lot you can give him Sit Narrower. A good PPM would be Move Into Channels. 

[Ivan787]

Anyone did some study about best training setup to achieve better performance in this style of play?

[Amarante]

14 hours ago, yonko said:

I can't speak for others but I'm not trying to recreate his tactic down to a T. It's simply not possible....with any real life tactic. FM is simulation and it has its limitations. Personally I'm well aware of that.

But we can recreate some elements and ideas. Now we have more tools. Unfortunately because of these new tools the ME needs a little tweaking still. However, we are all coming to grips with it little by little.

Specifically, Pep tweaks his tactic and player roles game by game, sometimes within the same game, to achieve control and domination over his opponents. Some elements we will never be able to replicate because they are still too complicate for a game like FM. But I'm OK with that.

Can we just focus on what we can replicate? And can we have people who contribute comments that help others, instead of saying what we can't do?

I was not implying that you were. If you look through out the thread you have persons that are trying to replicate everything. They are trying to replicate his tactics when in truth you must be replicating the philosophy of play. 

 

I've already contributed to the thread and have provided hints. In my own save i am getting the type of movement and passing patterns that i need, so i've posted it. 

[Amarante]

6 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

There is one interesting thing to note about City passing map. They are the only big team that don't have the DM Player (Fernandinho) in the most completed pass. In addition no Silva neither KDB are in the most completed pass. This means that they are not playmaker (in terms of FM role).

They are Mezs both attack and support. They operate either outwide or in the half space. 

 If sterling starts on the Left and Mahrez on the right then you see Walker and Mendy create the width and the CM stay more central  when Sane plays and Sterling on the right they act as wingers who stretches play wihch then allows the CM to move into the half space and you have the fullbacks who tuck inside more centrally and while Sterling/Sane drift in they drift out. 

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Amarante said:

I was not implying that you were. If you look through out the thread you have persons that are trying to replicate everything. They are trying to replicate his tactics when in truth you must be replicating the philosophy of play. 

 

I've already contributed to the thread and have provided hints. In my own save i am getting the type of movement and passing patterns that i need, so i've posted it. 

I see people discussing various aspects of Pep real life tactic and what can be replicated in FM. We need more posts that add to the discussion and give everyone ideas they can try. We don't need general sweeping statements like the one you made. 

You've contributed here, great. No one said you haven't.

[yonko]

On 25/11/2018 at 10:15, sovy666 said:

I have just finished reading the whole discussion but I have not seen a screenshot of the tactics you are using, do you think to insert one just to better understand the context of what you say?

If you've read the whole discussion, specifically my posts, then you can put the pieces together from various things I've discussed. Others have also made great contributions.

I haven't posted anything specific about my tactic because I'm still trying different things. Plus I'm not trying to completely replicate his tactic at City. But I'm always interested in participating in the discussion of it because I'm very interested. 

I'm more interested in replicating the overall idea of dominating and controlling the game like Pep does. I combine different elements and try different ideas. Unfortunately often times I'm a bit stubborn in my own ways and have to work through that.

At the moment I'm working with this:

PIs:

SK - none

WBs - cross less, shoot less, stay wider

CDs - take less risks

DLP-D (or HB-D) - none

DLP-S - stay wider

AP-A - stay wider, roam from position

IF-S - shoot less, get forward, stay wider

F9 - shoot less, roam from position 

My roles are not what most will associate with the current City tactic. But I've always preferred them because I like what they contribute to the control of possession I'm going after. Now both playmaking roles in CM have option for "stay wider" which I find interesting and useful. Other roles in midfield can provide different options and variety or represent how City's midfielders play better in theory. In terms of movement and spacing, using 2 Mezzalas and DLP behind them makes more sense but not so much for dominating possession like I want to or like Pep/City do IRL. Just my opinion....

I'm pretty happy with the back 4 and the front 3 now. I still have some issues how the F9 plays but I don't want to dwell on that too much anymore. Btw, I'm not playing the game on the Public Beta ME.

[Amarante]

40 minutes ago, yonko said:

If you've read the whole discussion, specifically my posts, then you can put the pieces together from various things I've discussed. Others have also made great contributions.

I haven't posted anything specific about my tactic because I'm still trying different things. Plus I'm not trying to completely replicate his tactic at City. But I'm always interested in participating in the discussion of it because I'm very interested. 

I'm more interested in replicating the overall idea of dominating and controlling the game like Pep does. I combine different elements and try different ideas. Unfortunately often times I'm a bit stubborn in my own ways and have to work through that.

At the moment I'm working with this:

PIs:

SK - none

WBs - cross less, shoot less, stay wider

CDs - take less risks

DLP-D (or HB-D) - none

DLP-S - stay wider

AP-A - stay wider, roam from position

IF-S - shoot less, get forward, stay wider

F9 - shoot less, roam from position 

My roles are not what most will associate with the current City tactic. But I've always preferred them because I like what they contribute to the control of possession I'm going after. Now both playmaking roles in CM have option for "stay wider" which I find interesting and useful. Other roles in midfield can provide different options and variety or represent how City's midfielders play better in theory. In terms of movement and spacing, using 2 Mezzalas and DLP behind them makes more sense but not so much for dominating possession like I want to or like Pep/City do IRL. Just my opinion....

I'm pretty happy with the back 4 and the front 3 now. I still have some issues how the F9 plays but I don't want to dwell on that too much anymore. Btw, I'm not playing the game on the Public Beta ME.

I assume by having 3 play making roles you ensure the ball is circulated well in the midfield area before being moved out wide? How is the play on the wing? Does the two CM split and form diamonds with the fullback and winger? 

[radenje]

I'm here with a basic question regarding Guardiola's style of play. Does higher tempo mean that team will try to get ball forward as fast as possible and lower tempo means the slow build-up play? Or maybe the high tempo is about time spending on making decisions? For example: high tempo - taking less time to think, moving ball quickly around, one-twos, one touch etc. lower tempo - holding the ball, thinking about best choice to pass the ball etc? 

Also I've got one problem. I want my wingers to stay wide in the final third. I've set up their PIs to stay wider, hold position and added Be more disciplined as team instruction. And even after that they still play too narrow, standing on the corners of penalty area...

[sovy666]

@yonko I'm managing Juventus and I read on an Italian blog that IRL they are using a kind of positional play so I began reading here to understand what it means in terms of FM to eventually apply it to my game. This thread on Man City replication should be the best way to approach this football philosophy.

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Amarante said:

I assume by having 3 play making roles you ensure the ball is circulated well in the midfield area before being moved out wide? How is the play on the wing? Does the two CM split and form diamonds with the fullback and winger? 

That's the idea behind the 3 playmakers. Although, sometimes I use HB instead of DLP for my DMC. The playmakers help with the possession aspect which I'm going after, hence why I prefer the roles over other options. And since I can select "stay wider" for them it prevents them from getting too close to each and overcrowding an area. This way the stay nicely spaced out.

What happens is the ball is circulated between the 3 and then played out wide to the WBs. From there the WBs have 3 options - 1) mostly they draw pressure and then pass again to the nearest playmaker on their side (I wished playmakers were coded to go a little wide and behind them) - sometimes the ball is nicely played from one side to the other, from one WB through the midfielders to the other WB. 2) the other option is to find the IF who is tucked inside the penalty box, then he squares it further or dribbles and shoots. 3) they go for the cross, which half of the times is blocked, even though they are instructed to "cross less" and I have "work ball into box" selected. This is the part that frustrates me still with this ME but it's something we have to live with. I wish the WB would never cross the ball. I want to see passes back or cut backs or square passes inside only. The same goes for the IFs. To me that is or should be the purpose of the "work ball into box" instruction. 

Sometimes the ball doesn't get played out wide. Instead you see some interaction and combination play in the middle with the CMs, IFs and/or the False 9. But not enough IMO and that is where this ME falls short the most so far. I know they are working on the movement of the attacking players in and around the penalty box. Hopefully they improve it for the next patch.

I found that "Hold Shape" is key instruction for possession style tactic. Hence why the Tiki-Taka preset has it. It makes players form these triangles and come to the ball for combination plays before moving the ball forward or wide. I find it very Pep-esque, so to speak, at least in my set up. Here the description of the instruction:

 

4 hours ago, radenje said:

I'm here with a basic question regarding Guardiola's style of play. Does higher tempo mean that team will try to get ball forward as fast as possible and lower tempo means the slow build-up play? Or maybe the high tempo is about time spending on making decisions? For example: high tempo - taking less time to think, moving ball quickly around, one-twos, one touch etc. lower tempo - holding the ball, thinking about best choice to pass the ball etc? 

Also I've got one problem. I want my wingers to stay wide in the final third. I've set up their PIs to stay wider, hold position and added Be more disciplined as team instruction. And even after that they still play too narrow, standing on the corners of penalty area...

I've said it a few times and in a few places already. The AMR/L positions are considered Wide Forwards, especially since the STR and STL positions were removed by SI a few years ago. Thus they will stay wider during build up, but closer to the penalty box they will come inside more than players in MR/L positions would. That is logical and I personally like it. I like having them wider during build up and then still as a goal threat in the final 3rd. If you watch Thierry Henry's video explaining Pep's system, that is how he wants them playing.

Now at City, Sane and Sterling are staying a little bit wider for longer (than Villa, Pedro, Sanches and Henry) because the CMs are more of a goal threat (the 2 Silvas, KDB and Gundogan, whoever plays) unlike at Barca when he had Iniesta and Xavi. That is one of the subtle differences between Barca and City under Pep.

I choose to replicate the Villa and Pedro part more because I use more playmakers in the midfield, though my AP on Attack is also a goal threat. If one wants to use more threatening roles from CM like Mezzala, BBM or RPM (and even CM-A) then using MR/L as IW-A with stay wider PI would make more sense I guess.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, sovy666 said:

@yonko I'm managing Juventus and I read on an Italian blog that IRL they are using a kind of positional play so I began reading here to understand what it means in terms of FM to eventually apply it to my game. This thread on Man City replication should be the best way to approach this football philosophy.

TBH, I haven't seen Juve play that often so I can't comment. But hopefully these discussions help you build a tactic for them you feel represents the way they play.

[Amarante]

Positional play is practice in Spain, Italy and Germany oh also the Netherlands. Only england and to an extent France don't practice positional play. 

Juve positional play is more a. defensive one but still has a few key concepts. 

 

@yonko you have given me great food for thought on some matters. I see Cleon working with the mez and the inside forward together, this is also a role that i am practicing with as well. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Amarante

[sovy666]

3 ore fa, yonko ha scritto:

TBH, I haven't seen Juve play that often so I can't comment. But hopefully these discussions help you build a tactic for them you feel represents the way they play.

In fact I was not looking for a direct comment on the style of Juventus but just let you know why I asked you a screenshot of your current tactics and I thank you for putting it.

[Hoosier_76]

I've found some success using the 4-1-2-3 default tiki taka with a few tweaks. I ticked "be more disciplined" instead of expressive, and added play fairly wide, underlap right, overlap left.

We seem to move the ball around much better, but it's still been a struggle getting the striker involved in a meaningful way. Most of our goals comes from the RPM with the "arrives late" trait. Also my wingbacks seem to love dribbling into space only to stand completely still so the defense can close them down.

Still early days, but when it works it's a joy to watch.

[Ivan787]

From what I've read in this discussion and some test performed I think that the most important thing is to remind that we have to deal with the ME. I mean that is not important only thinking at what is the philosophy or the playing features of Pep, but the aim should be thinking how the ME replicate that features. Sometimes is not easy and absolutely counterintuitive.

The best example is what I read some days ago about the "Hit Early Crosses" instruction. If we see a City match, probably all of us are agree that the play with "work ball into box". But in this ME that TI will not replicate exactly how Pep's wingers plays. If you try to set "Hit early Crosses" you will find a more similar playing style.

This particular approach should be used for every TI or PI and settings. I found much more similarity to City real life playing with Defensive or Counter mentality, because only with this very low level of risk I can replicate that short passes between defenders and midfielder. Using Balanced or Positive (intuitively the one I would chase thinking at real City) I found a lot of balls lost due to unnecessary risky passing.

Main issue i find is about pressing and positional pressing. If I use more pressing approach i find 2 oe 3 players running and pressing to the ball leaving a lot of space uncovered behind them.....I don't want this. I'd like a kind of pressing that aim to block the passing line, with a 1vs 1 pressing.....probably the solution will be man marking.

[FreezingTable]

Thats true, @Ivan787 

But I think the hole game in general is very hard to understand. I’ve played fm for several years and just lately I found information that the mentality of the team is basically just risk. Nothing in the description of the different mentality’s is acutally true or fits how the team will play, it’s just how much risk you are willing to take.

It’s easy to think that the “positive” or “attacking” mentality is how Man City is playing but actually it’s “defensive” or “cousious” here in fm. But then if you read the discription of these mentality’s it’s no where near how Pep is playing, so how can we know this when The description is so inaccurate??

I think this is stupid that new fm players have to play the game for many hours just to learn basics about the formation, mentality TI’s and PI’s. I feel like every year me myself has to learn the game from the top again because the infamtion on the mentality, TI’s and PI’s is not accurate. I just need to test and see and make screenshots of the tactic because nothing is making sense, but my team is finally playing good.

Why dont make things easy and logic ?

Edited November 28, 2018 by FreezingTable

[Ivan787]

5 minuti fa, FreezingTable ha scritto:

Thats true, @Ivan787 

But I think the hole game in general is very hard to understand. I’ve played fm for several years and just lately I found information that the mentality of the team is basically just risk. Nothing in the description of the different mentality’s is acutally true or fits how the team will play, it’s just how much risk you are willing to take.

It’s easy to think that the “positive” or “attacking” mentality is how Man City is playing but actually it’s “defensive” or “cousious”. But then if you read the discription of these mentality’s it’s no where near how Pep is playing so how can we know this when it’s to unaccurate description??

I think this is stupid that new fm players have to play the game for many hours just to learn basics about the formation, mentality TI’s and PI’s. I feel like every year me myself has to learn the game from the top again because the infamtion on the mentality, TI’s and PI’s is not accurate. I just need to test and see and make screenshots of the tactic because nothing is making sense, but my team is finally playing good.

Why dont make things easy and logic ?

Yeah, I often think the same and my answer is: I probably woudn't do it.

I imagine me, today, buying for the first time FM and trying to play it, trying to understand its dynanics, without several years of experience, several years of forums and experiments (when I had much more time than today)....probably I would play it for a couple of weeks than stop and never buy it again.

I think this will be a long-term debate without any definitive solution but in general I agree with you, I feel the lack of a guide, useful for people that don't have many many hours to spend to "try and error" in understanding think like that the words "mentality" is synomin of passing and decision risk and not playing style.

[kpsia518]

19.2.0 beta is release,i heard ppl said its "tiki-tika friendly" now.

this is patch note for 19.2.0 beta (in chinese):

http://www.playgm.cn/thread-920355-1-1.html

Edited November 29, 2018 by kpsia518

[cristhianlinhatti]

[yonko]

4 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

Interesting stats. So what was the score from that game? If you tell me Roma won 4-0 with all for goals from open play I will be really impressed. Not that I'm not from 69% possession, 92% pass completion and 854 competed passes.

Perhaps you want to share details and thoughts how you managed to achieve that?

[cristhianlinhatti]

4 horas atrás, yonko disse:

Interesting stats. So what was the score from that game? If you tell me Roma won 4-0 with all for goals from open play I will be really impressed. Not that I'm not from 69% possession, 92% pass completion and 854 competed passes.

Perhaps you want to share details and thoughts how you managed to achieve that?

we won. 1x0.

the idea was to play with low mentality. (defensive)
4-1-4-1-0 dm
fb on suport
wm on suport (stay wider, get forward)
two cm on suport (creative players)
enganche to create a 2-3-5 structure.

the problem is low objectivity with the ball, but the system is extremely solid in defense. (possession is the best defender)

need adjusts to make possession more effective.

[cristhianlinhatti]

https://streamable.com/0y9b6

positional play, but harmless.

[tacticalthoughts]

How would you go about individual training to play a pep style tactic.

I've been thinking something like the following

GK: Sweeper Keeper (A)

LB/RB: Wing Back (S)

CB: Ball Playing Defender (Cover) but maybe Libero? 

DM: Half Back or DLP (D)

CMs: CM (A) or RP ????

LW / RW: Inside Forward (A)

ST: Complete Forward (A)

Usually the individual focus I'll use depends on the players weakness. Usually one of Passing, Final Third or Attacking Movement.

I'm not sure about if I should be using those training positions with so much focus on physical attributes. Peps teams are more mental / technical focused apart from a couple of players (the fullbacks) who are powerful and fast.

Would I be better having midfielders on AP (A) role training as roaming playmaker includes quite a lot of physical attributes.

PA would be better taken up by mental and technical attributes but some of those roles also don't cover all the most important attributes. Would be keen to know how people have been setting up their training for this approach and molding a club to play this style.

In terms of tactic I've been trying to set pretty standard roles across the board.

CM and HB for midfield, inside forwards, wing backs, central defenders, complete forward 

Then building out the required movements with PPMs and player instructions. Letting the player make a lot more decisions than forcing them.

 

[kpsia518]

patch 19.2

 

[kpsia518]

patch19.2

[yonko]

14 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

we won. 1x0.

the idea was to play with low mentality. (defensive)
4-1-4-1-0 dm
fb on suport
wm on suport (stay wider, get forward)
two cm on suport (creative players)
enganche to create a 2-3-5 structure.

the problem is low objectivity with the ball, but the system is extremely solid in defense. (possession is the best defender)

need adjusts to make possession more effective.

Interesting set up.

Can you post individual passing stats (analysis summary, select passing) from that match?

I definitely agree with the mentality part. How about team instructions?

8 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

https://streamable.com/0y9b6

positional play, but harmless.

The problem is the interaction of the midfielders with the front 3.

Is that clip from your tactic?

7 hours ago, tacticalthoughts said:

How would you go about individual training to play a pep style tactic.

I've been thinking something like the following

GK: Sweeper Keeper (A)

LB/RB: Wing Back (S)

CB: Ball Playing Defender (Cover) but maybe Libero? 

DM: Half Back or DLP (D)

CMs: CM (A) or RP ????

LW / RW: Inside Forward (A)

ST: Complete Forward (A)

Usually the individual focus I'll use depends on the players weakness. Usually one of Passing, Final Third or Attacking Movement.

I'm not sure about if I should be using those training positions with so much focus on physical attributes. Peps teams are more mental / technical focused apart from a couple of players (the fullbacks) who are powerful and fast.

Would I be better having midfielders on AP (A) role training as roaming playmaker includes quite a lot of physical attributes.

PA would be better taken up by mental and technical attributes but some of those roles also don't cover all the most important attributes. Would be keen to know how people have been setting up their training for this approach and molding a club to play this style.

In terms of tactic I've been trying to set pretty standard roles across the board.

CM and HB for midfield, inside forwards, wing backs, central defenders, complete forward 

Then building out the required movements with PPMs and player instructions. Letting the player make a lot more decisions than forcing them.

 

I use the following role training:

GK = SK-S

FB = FB-A

CB = BPD-C

DM = HB-D

CM = RPM-S

AMRL = IF-S or Treq

ST = Treq

I tend to not use any additional focus. I believe it's more important what kind of team training activities you select. You have to pick core attributes to focus on developing and training, plus some additional ones that may be position specific.

I focus on the core ones for possession - first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, contraption, decisions, off the ball, teamwork, vision. Then I add a few obvious ones for each position. Here is a sample of actives from two weeks (end of February) in my game:

 

44 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

patch 19.2

 

 

39 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

patch19.2

I tried 19.2 patch and I'm very disappointed. I'm not seeing this kind of interaction at all. There is absolutely zero connection in this ME between the midfield and the front 3 in the final third.

I'm not usually someone to complain and go after SI but I'm really not enjoying FM19 so far. I'm playing less and less as I'm frustrated with the ME. I know they are working hard on this but it's just not working for me.

I might stop playing the game at all and not bother anymore.

[CRN711]

Il y a 11 heures, kpsia518 a dit :

patch19.2

Can you share your tactic please ? This looks great

[NabsKebabs]

I have found the pressing forward on defend is the closest replication to Aguero's movement IRL. It drops the deepest from all the striker roles. @yonko I know you have been unsatisfied with the false 9 and other roles, so give this a shot. 

[yonko]

21 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

I have found the pressing forward on defend is the closest replication to Aguero's movement IRL. It drops the deepest from all the striker roles. @yonko I know you have been unsatisfied with the false 9 and other roles, so give this a shot. 

To be honest, I'm not playing the game at the moment. I'm so disappointed with the ME this year. I'm sure you have seen where I raised my voice recently in couple of posts elsewhere. I've been playing the game since 1993, every year and I've never been less excited about it than now. It's the only game I play, btw. 

[FreezingTable]

35 minutes ago, yonko said:

To be honest, I'm not playing the game at the moment. I'm so disappointed with the ME this year. I'm sure you have seen where I raised my voice recently in couple of posts elsewhere. I've been playing the game since 1993, every year and I've never been less excited about it than now. It's the only game I play, btw. 

Same here. I can understand that the game always will have small bugs and errors, but imo the game isn’t fully done. Basic stuff that makes ME looks realistic is missing! Put on all your resources SI and fix the game!

[Flohrinho]

On 30/11/2018 at 12:27, cristhianlinhatti said:

we won. 1x0.

the idea was to play with low mentality. (defensive)
4-1-4-1-0 dm
fb on suport
wm on suport (stay wider, get forward)
two cm on suport (creative players)
enganche to create a 2-3-5 structure.

the problem is low objectivity with the ball, but the system is extremely solid in defense. (possession is the best defender)

need adjusts to make possession more effective.

Very similar setup to mine. I use a PF(S) though and two MEZ(A) and only play on cautious mentality. Possession is around 70% more often than not but the team lacks punch in attack, mainly due to the defensively minded mentality.  Even with counter and counter-pressing active, the mentality seems to deny any fast attacks after winning the ball. Another problem that I have is that even though the instructions are set for my wide midfielders to stay wide, they set very narrow in attack. I tried to combat that with a very wide width in attack but still, they just don't hold the wide positions you see them do in real life which in return condenses the central area too much for KDB and DS to be as effective as they are in reality.  I think it's the main reason so far I find replicating the roles of the two CM in Guardiola's system almost impossible. Especially Silva almost operates like an inside forward that already starts in a central area. These vertical penetrating runs are hard to replicate if you can't stretch the play wide enough to open up spaces. It also doesn't help that the passing even with good players can be immensely imprecise at a higher tempo, let alone the fact that even good dribblers can barely beat their man due to the absurd high tackling success rate the current match engine has.

[tacticalthoughts]

The current tactic i'm playing with has me top of the league with arsenal and undefeated in the first 15 games of the season drawing one & conceding only two goals. The only issue here is that i've only scored 20 goals. Usually games finish 1 - 0 with 60-75% possession. 20-30 shots.

I'm not getting any of the short intricate play to unlock defences with short passing though, it's always a cross from one winger to the other or a 2nd ball knock down off a corner. Not exactly how i want to watch the play even though it's winning.

Another thing i'd like to try is the short passing from corners. ALWAYS it's a short pass to the man whos come short and then he just crosses it into the box. It's never a short pass and then back to the midfields to restart play.

[yonko]

1 hour ago, Flohrinho said:

Very similar setup to mine. I use a PF(S) though and two MEZ(A) and only play on cautious mentality. Possession is around 70% more often than not but the team lacks punch in attack, mainly due to the defensively minded mentality.  Even with counter and counter-pressing active, the mentality seems to deny any fast attacks after winning the ball. Another problem that I have is that even though the instructions are set for my wide midfielders to stay wide, they set very narrow in attack. I tried to combat that with a very wide width in attack but still, they just don't hold the wide positions you see them do in real life which in return condenses the central area too much for KDB and DS to be as effective as they are in reality.  I think it's the main reason so far I find replicating the roles of the two CM in Guardiola's system almost impossible. Especially Silva almost operates like an inside forward that already starts in a central area. These vertical penetrating runs are hard to replicate if you can't stretch the play wide enough to open up spaces. It also doesn't help that the passing even with good players can be immensely imprecise at a higher tempo, let alone the fact that even good dribblers can barely beat their man due to the absurd high tackling success rate the current match engine has.

As much as Sane and Sterling stay wide in Pep's tactic, they also get into the penalty box to score. Don't they?

You don't want to have just the ST as the goal threat, do you?

 

[Flohrinho]

40 minutes ago, yonko said:

As much as Sane and Sterling stay wide in Pep's tactic, they also get into the penalty box to score. Don't they?

You don't want to have just the ST as the goal threat, do you?

 

Of course not, that's why KDB and Silva are basically supposed to act like inside forwards but with a defensive mentality like the one, I use it's practically impossible. Also beating your opponent on the wing is vital to how City plays if they, how they stretch the playing field wide enough to open up space in other areas. There we have the problem that even great dribblers like Sané and Sterlin are barely able to beat a FB 1-on-1.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, Flohrinho said:

Of course not, that's why KDB and Silva are basically supposed to act like inside forwards but with a defensive mentality like the one, I use it's practically impossible. Also beating your opponent on the wing is vital to how City plays if they, how they stretch the playing field wide enough to open up space in other areas. There we have the problem that even great dribblers like Sané and Sterlin are barely able to beat a FB 1-on-1.

Silva and KDB act like inside forwards? I'm not sure about that.

If you look at City's play, they try to have 3 players (running, not standing) inside the penalty box trying to score goals when the ball is in the final third. One of those players is the ST. The other two are 1 of Sane/Sterling and 1 of Silva/KDB. The players that do not run into the box are providing width and support.

[Flohrinho]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Silva and KDB act like inside forwards? I'm not sure about that.

If you look at City's play, they try to have 3 players (running, not standing) inside the penalty box trying to score goals when the ball is in the final third. One of those players is the ST. The other two are 1 of Sane/Sterling and 1 of Silva/KDB. The players that do not run into the box are providing width and support.

The scenario that you describe is basically where Silva is occupying the inside forward space. He isn't one in the game, certainly not but he essentially fulfills that role if the winger on his side is staying wide. The winger of the side that's without the ball often cuts inside, mostly Sterling, that's true but my problem is to even get them to stay wide at all. As soon as Sané gets to the box he will hover at the edge of the penalty zone. and not stay near the sideline as he does in reality.

I know some of you are having success with this, I don't, I never managed to have a winger play like an actual winger would let alone get them to a level where they are effective. So yeah I'm obviously missing something or the current match engine just simply doesn't allow to copy Guardiola's style at the moment.

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Flohrinho said:

The scenario that you describe is basically where Silva is occupying the inside forward space. He isn't one in the game, certainly not but he essentially fulfills that role if the winger on his side is staying wide. The winger of the side that's without the ball often cuts inside, mostly Sterling, that's true but my problem is to even get them to stay wide at all. As soon as Sané gets to the box he will hover at the edge of the penalty zone. and not stay near the sideline as he does in reality.

I know some of you are having success with this, I don't, I never managed to have a winger play like an actual winger would let alone get them to a level where they are effective. So yeah I'm obviously missing something or the current match engine just simply doesn't allow to copy Guardiola's style at the moment.

First, we need to define what traditional winger is. But the way I understand them to play like, I don't think that is what Pep is using them like. At least not in the final third.

Second, you don't know the scenario I was using because I didn't go into details about it. I just mentioned a general concept of having 3 men running into the box while the ball is in the final third.

So here is an example in details:

Sterling has the ball on the right side of the penalty box, outside of the box in the wide channel. In this situation, you don't want Sane to be wide on the other side. You want him in the box with David Silva (MCL) and Aguero (ST) jostling for position in the box and being a goal threat. However, in support of Sterling on the right side you have KDB (MCR) and Walker (DR) plus additional support infield from Fernandinho (DM). In this scenario Sane's role is not to provide width on the weak side. It is to be a goal threat along with Silva and Aguero.

Now if you rewind back and have Sterling with the ball 20 yards or so back, he would be out wide near the sideline in the middle third of the field. In this scenario, you want Sane stretching the play outside on the opposite side. The spacing is different depending or where the ball is and who has the ball.

For the first two thirds of the field, Sane and Sterling have to provide width and stretch the play, so Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Aguero (to some extent, but not as much as say Messi had) have space to operate. In the final third you have freedom of movement, generally, but at City Pep is focusing more on having 3 players being a goal threat in the final third. 

Now, some of this can be created in FM and some of this may not be, like many other things, btw. 

[drigaco]

4 horas atrás, yonko disse:

First, we need to define what traditional winger is. But the way I understand them to play like, I don't think that is what Pep is using them like. At least not in the final third.

Second, you don't know the scenario I was using because I didn't go into details about it. I just mentioned a general concept of having 3 men running into the box while the ball is in the final third.

So here is an example in details:

Sterling has the ball on the right side of the penalty box, outside of the box in the wide channel. In this situation, you don't want Sane to be wide on the other side. You want him in the box with David Silva (MCL) and Aguero (ST) jostling for position in the box and being a goal threat. However, in support of Sterling on the right side you have KDB (MCR) and Walker (DR) plus additional support infield from Fernandinho (DM). In this scenario Sane's role is not to provide width on the weak side. It is to be a goal threat along with Silva and Aguero.

Now if you rewind back and have Sterling with the ball 20 yards or so back, he would be out wide near the sideline in the middle third of the field. In this scenario, you want Sane stretching the play outside on the opposite side. The spacing is different depending or where the ball is and who has the ball.

For the first two thirds of the field, Sane and Sterling have to provide width and stretch the play, so Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Aguero (to some extent, but not as much as say Messi had) have space to operate. In the final third you have freedom of movement, generally, but at City Pep is focusing more on having 3 players being a goal threat in the final third. 

Now, some of this can be created in FM and some of this may not be, like many other things, btw. 

Raised the same question in other thread and I agree with you. The problem with that specific movement is that you probably don't see any other team in the world playing like that sou you would have to create something just because of City. If you look at just the type of player Guardiola has playing as RCM/LCM they're very unique. I would say only Hoffenheim ( probably am forgetting about other team) play with the same type of player in Demirbay,Bittencourt,Kramaric,etc.

[Gegenklaus]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

First, we need to define what traditional winger is. But the way I understand them to play like, I don't think that is what Pep is using them like. At least not in the final third.

Second, you don't know the scenario I was using because I didn't go into details about it. I just mentioned a general concept of having 3 men running into the box while the ball is in the final third.

So here is an example in details:

Sterling has the ball on the right side of the penalty box, outside of the box in the wide channel. In this situation, you don't want Sane to be wide on the other side. You want him in the box with David Silva (MCL) and Aguero (ST) jostling for position in the box and being a goal threat. However, in support of Sterling on the right side you have KDB (MCR) and Walker (DR) plus additional support infield from Fernandinho (DM). In this scenario Sane's role is not to provide width on the weak side. It is to be a goal threat along with Silva and Aguero.

Now if you rewind back and have Sterling with the ball 20 yards or so back, he would be out wide near the sideline in the middle third of the field. In this scenario, you want Sane stretching the play outside on the opposite side. The spacing is different depending or where the ball is and who has the ball.

For the first two thirds of the field, Sane and Sterling have to provide width and stretch the play, so Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Aguero (to some extent, but not as much as say Messi had) have space to operate. In the final third you have freedom of movement, generally, but at City Pep is focusing more on having 3 players being a goal threat in the final third. 

Now, some of this can be created in FM and some of this may not be, like many other things, btw. 

Good points, but from that we can take the principles from their overall attacking structure - and we can use that to create a tactic in FM. One principle is to always have two players on each side wide - during all phases with the ball. Then two in each half space and one central attacker. The five men behind them needs to protect the space the attackers leave behind and support the attackers. We need a fair amount of possession, so we can apply our attacking shape - players getting time to get into position. 

So for example one side could look like this: WM(s), CM(a) and behind them IWB(s). That means we have one of the movements City does. On the other side it could be a CM(s)/DLP(s) - IW(a) - WB(a/s). 

But their are plenty of possibilities. The key for me is to take Guardiola’s overall principles and translate them roughly into FM and play by them. I have given up on trying to replicate everything and I have been better of from it.

[NabsKebabs]

Just hopped on FM...thought I'd play a game with the Man City save I've been messing around with. Think I just scored the picture perfect goal using City's main tactic from last season.

This is on the public beta ME. The wingers held great width in the buildup and I wasn't even using the maximum width TI. I'm not sure if SI have maybe changed the behavior of the wingers in AM strata.

Here's the roles and duties I was using:

[tacticalthoughts]

How do you find the Mez roles working?

I think i have the back 6 set up fine and the build up from the back is good. It's the roles from CM up that i'm having an issue getting right.

 

Do you run all your individual training to be the same as the roles you have? 

 

i.e CMs on Mez, AML AMR on Winger or do you take the as many attributes as possible approach?

CMs roaming playmaker / b2b
Wingers IF
ST on Complete forward
Full backs on CWB
CBs on Librero

Edited December 7, 2018 by tacticalthoughts

[NabsKebabs]

10 minutes ago, tacticalthoughts said:

How do you find the Mez roles working?

I think i have the back 6 set up fine and the build up from the back is good. It's the roles from CM up that i'm having an issue getting right.

 

Do you run all your individual training to be the same as the roles you have? 

 

i.e CMs on Mez, AML AMR on Winger or do you take the as many attributes as possible approach?

CMs roaming playmaker / b2b
Wingers IF
ST on Complete forward
Full backs on CWB
CBs on Librero

I think the mez roles replicate the roles irl quite well and seem to work fine in the ME. Overall, I do agree they are the hardest roles to get right.

For training, I'm not bothering with training in this save, left it to the Ass.man. This is because I don't have a real interest in managing Man City, I just play around with this save to replicate Guardiola's tactics. And I literally just holiday to the next match after each one. 

However, when I do take control of training as I do in most of my saves, I simply train the players for the role that will work on attributes that I think the player needs to improve. If I'm not sure/can't decide, then I usually just default to the role I'm most likely to play them in. For young players, I often train them in roles that work on a lot of attributes to make them  more well rounded players and for older players I may look to to train them in roles that only work on a few attributes. 

Hope that helps.

Edited December 7, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[tacticalthoughts]

9 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I think the mez roles replicate the roles irl quite well and seem to work fine in the ME. Overall, I do agree they are the hardest roles to get right.

For training, I'm not bothering with training in this save, left it to the Ass.man. This is because I don't have a real interest in managing Man City, I just play around with this save to replicate Guardiola's tactics. And I literally just holiday to the next match after each one. 

However, when I do take control of training as I do in most of my saves, I simply train the players for the role that will work on attributes that I think the player needs to improve. If I'm not sure/can't decide, then I usually just default to the role I'm most likely to play them in. For young players, I often train them in roles that work on a lot of attributes to make them  more well rounded players and for older players I may look to to train them in roles that only work on a few attributes. 

Hope that helps.

Great stuff. I not sure if training for a role other than what they will play means they won't play the role they're assigned as good as they should. Is training a specific role in individual section strictly attribute focus?

[radenje]

36 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Just hopped on FM...thought I'd play a game with the Man City save I've been messing around with. Think I just scored the picture perfect goal using City's main tactic from last season.

This is on the public beta ME. The wingers held great width in the buildup and I wasn't even using the maximum width TI. I'm not sure if SI have maybe changed the behavior of the wingers in AM strata.

Here's the roles and duties I was using:

Very impressive. My wingers could never stay this wide during the build-up. Did you use any player instructions or is this default? Would you mind sharing more details like mentality or team instructions?

[NabsKebabs]

30 minutes ago, tacticalthoughts said:

Great stuff. I not sure if training for a role other than what they will play means they won't play the role they're assigned as good as they should. Is training a specific role in individual section strictly attribute focus?

"How well they play role" is basically just determined by their attributes. In the game, the coloured circle, or role suitability as it is known is just a general guide from the how the game determines how well the player can play the role. I don't pay much, if any attention to it. If I think the player has the right attributes for the role/duty, I play him in that position. Hope I answered your question there, please let me know if i didn't.

Edited December 7, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[NabsKebabs]

10 minutes ago, radenje said:

Very impressive. My wingers could never stay this wide during the build-up. Did you use any player instructions or is this default? Would you mind sharing more details like mentality or team instructions?

Thanks mate. Here's the instructions I was using:

 

[Flohrinho]

12 hours ago, yonko said:

First, we need to define what traditional winger is. But the way I understand them to play like, I don't think that is what Pep is using them like. At least not in the final third.

Second, you don't know the scenario I was using because I didn't go into details about it. I just mentioned a general concept of having 3 men running into the box while the ball is in the final third.

So here is an example in details:

Sterling has the ball on the right side of the penalty box, outside of the box in the wide channel. In this situation, you don't want Sane to be wide on the other side. You want him in the box with David Silva (MCL) and Aguero (ST) jostling for position in the box and being a goal threat. However, in support of Sterling on the right side you have KDB (MCR) and Walker (DR) plus additional support infield from Fernandinho (DM). In this scenario Sane's role is not to provide width on the weak side. It is to be a goal threat along with Silva and Aguero.

Now if you rewind back and have Sterling with the ball 20 yards or so back, he would be out wide near the sideline in the middle third of the field. In this scenario, you want Sane stretching the play outside on the opposite side. The spacing is different depending or where the ball is and who has the ball.

For the first two thirds of the field, Sane and Sterling have to provide width and stretch the play, so Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Aguero (to some extent, but not as much as say Messi had) have space to operate. In the final third you have freedom of movement, generally, but at City Pep is focusing more on having 3 players being a goal threat in the final third. 

Now, some of this can be created in FM and some of this may not be, like many other things, btw. 

I don't know why we are arguing I totally agree with everything you said. My problem is rather that even on the side with the ball I can not get the winger to stay wide they always keep running inside with the ball. That means either the ME is not working properly or the PPM "cuts inside from the right" isn't working correctly and makes him cut in from the left as well.

Just out of curiosity, what's your lineup and roles looking like?

[tacticalthoughts]

Is anyone having trouble getting the striker to score goals with this style of play?