Inspiring Concepts #2 – Liverpool's Fluid System – IWBs & Central Wingers

[okereke]

Intro

Following the somewhat unexpected (and good) response to my first tactical thread here (which came from a challenge originally posted by @herne79 and was heavily inspired by @westy8chimp and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! work), here is the second instalment of the series that I plan to keep writing about for some time, or at least in those moments time allows me to. As I already said in the first topic and Concept thread, what I'm trying to do here is only to build formations or work on concepts I've read or watched somewhere that, even not fully knowing about them, inspired something that I want to achieve on FM.

The first thread focused on the creation of a trio of forwards in a strikerless tactic, in which that partnership was expected to start the game (every play, actually) in a 2-1 shape of two TQs and one SS to then turn into a 1-2 shape formed by one AM (the SS dropping deeper) and two Fs (TQs getting inside to central forward positions). I was quite pleased with the process and the fact that the system ended working, both around that idea and the full formation as a whole.

• Past Inspiring Concepts' Threads

1. - Celtic's Strikerless 1-2-to-2-1

* * *

Context

For the 1-2-to-2-1 challenge I used an all-Scots Celtic side and although it wasn't something I had planned, given that I had loaded both the Scottish and English first-level divisions I ultimately thought about keeping the same save alive while taking on other challenges and inspirations, just to play on an evolving world and force myself to adapt to diverse and unexpected squads, losing potential preconceptions. Even with that, the idea is to move places every season (the original plan was to start a save for each challenge, so it's kind of the same after all). And at the end of the 2017/18 campaign, after reigning in all Scottish competitions, two teams emerged as possible destinations given their subpar seasons in England: Manchester City and Liverpool. Ultimately, Guardiola's side defeated Manchester United in a derby for the UCL title and kept the Spaniard as their coach, while Klopp was sacked after finishing 6th and only achieve Europa League qualification with Liverpool.

So, for this next challenge, I'll Never Walk Alone.

* * *

The Idea

I'm not sure if the thread's title has make anything clear, although I guess it hasn't – not at least completely. The second challenge and concept I've been thinking on taking on is based around a few ideas rather than just one, although there is a prime element to the whole formation to build and work in. And that, is the creation of the unavailable role of the Central Winger.

The inspiration for this, I must acknowledge doesn't come from a single article or image or anything I saw that turned on the bulb. I can't actually point to a single piece it comes from. It is more about all I've been reading lately, which has mostly been related to the Barçajax school of football, and the Dutch history. We all know about the "hipster" roles that have been heavily featured and used during the last few years. False 9s, Raumdeuters, Inverted Full-Backs, this and that. On top of that, for lots of people Spain created the now-renowed "Tiki-taka", which was a wrongly named "Juego de Posicion", etc etc. Don't want to bore with terms and definitions here, but I'm open to delve into all that if you want to ask for it in the thread and there is interest.

So, back to the idea to develop, I have been thinking about new stuff to do in-game and also probably influenced by my Celtic side of last season, I wanted to go into a different direction taking into consideration the things I learnt thanks to that year of tinkering. That brought me basically to the next points:

1. Avoid the use of overlapping WBs after using them heavily on Inspiring Concepts (IC) #1
2. Try to better defend the sides, which was something I paid not attention at all during IC#1
3. Build another fluid system, with smooth changes of positions in place
4. Focus on the midfield, overloading it by employing IWBs getting inside from the back
5. IWBs push CMs forward, which in turn push Wingers, which in turn affect the Forward(s) position too

To some it may sound like Guardiola's system at Bayern, and I won't deny it. I'm not trying to emulate that (nor the formation, shape, style of game, or anything) but it could very well be what inspired this given my late readings. I think the thought process could be described as:

1. I want to use and build through IWBs
2. If the IWBs get to CM positions then CMs will need to move forward
3. If CMs go forward then Wingers/AMs have to make room for them and thus their position will change
4. The Wingers/AMs move will also affect the way the Forward(s) play

From this I envisioned the idea of the Central Winger role, which doesn't exist on FM. Wait, what? Central Wingers. I had not read of them previously but somehow I thought someone must have had that thought before me. And yes, indeed someone had. And I'm totally cool with it. I already had the role and its functions clear in my mind prior to finding that article and reading more about it, so I'll keep going for it, and given FM's evolution during the past couple of editions I also had thought about how to "create" the role in game. It is still early tho, because I have not put time on building the tactic in game, but the ideas are already in my mind.

Here are the stupid doodles that would lay the foundation of the thread. I won't explain anything about them and just leave them in here for now, just to see if some of you have questions or could say something about how I want or how you would expect the thing to turn out by having read the prior paragraphs and now watching at the formations and notes (click to enlarge).

Hopefully we can get the discussion going before I update with some in-game developments.

Further Reading

• Using the Central Winger
• How to use Inverted Full-Backs
• Tactical Philosophy of Eusebio di Francesco

[SD]

I'm still a novice when it comes to tactics, but this is similar to something I considered as as a counter for 3 defender WB formations, such as the one Conte's Chelsea uses at game start.

So you have wingers on attack duty to exploit the space behind their WBs and hopefully drag one of their CBs wide.

IWBs with hold position PI to help win the possession battle in midfield where otherwise their WBs would invariable tip the scales in their favor and also to have an easier time tracking back their wide forwards.

Hard working and well rounded SV(S)/SV(A) or BWM(S)/SV(A) to close down and bomb forward once possession is won.

Finally, I envision the central winger as an AM(S) with PIs to Roam from position to encourage lateral movement and Run wide with ball to further emphasize on that(I'm typing this from work so not sure if the latter is available for a single central AM). Possibly add Dribble more, but I'm more of a fan of pass and move football. The goal is to have this player drift wide and create zonal 2v1 overloads along with the winger on either side of the pitch, basically trying to accomplish with one player what you'd usually want out of your FB+WF partnership. The drawback is that you'd be reliant on this player's intelligence and movement to pick his spots, so you need someone with good decisions, teamwork and off the ball - Thomas Muller comes to mind as the go to example of a player that would fit the bill.

I personally am a big fan of the HB role, but for this tactic I would only use it vs 2 striker formations, in which case the IWBs would lose their hold PI. Otherwise, if we have our midfielders hold position and our FBs making runs, we'd lose what I think is one of the advantages of IWBs which is less distance to cover when transitioning defensively compared to an overlapping FB.

As for the forward, I'm least certain about what role to use, but given that the AM would ideally would be off to a side a DLF(S) should work best to link up with the midfield and hold up the ball.

[Robson 07]

This will be interesting.  I'm sure @westy8chimp will enjoy the doodles by the way.

Aside from the main idea I'm curious on the title Liverpool's Fluid System.  I'm continually throwing the shape concept back and forth myself - far too often in fact - so I'm always intrigued by what other people think fluid is.  I don't mean the definition (compact & more CF) but the actual application.  What's your view?

[SD]

2 hours ago, SD said:

Finally, I envision the central winger as an AM(S) with PIs to Roam from position to encourage lateral movement and Run wide with ball to further emphasize on that(I'm typing this from work so not sure if the latter is available for a single central AM).

Indeed, it turns out the Run wide PI is only available for off center players, so back to the drawing board. At this point I'm tempted to think the central winger may be superfluous for what I'm trying to accomplish - finding a reliable counter to 3CB+WB formations, but I'm still interested to see what becomes of this project.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

This will be interesting.  I'm sure @westy8chimp will enjoy the doodles by the way.

Aside from the main idea I'm curious on the title Liverpool's Fluid System.  I'm continually throwing the shape concept back and forth myself - far too often in fact - so I'm always intrigued by what other people think fluid is.  I don't mean the definition (compact & more CF) but the actual application.  What's your view?

Lovely doodles 

[craiigman]

Interested in the tactical setup here, looking forward for more.

[Yoeri]

I used to read that you have to create space in midfield when you want IWB. Maybe an set-up like this makes sense?

Midfield with two mezzala's and wingers who's coming inside? Or no wingers and shadow strikers? 

Just my opinion, don't know if it even make sense at all. 

[okereke]

En 30/8/2018 a las 20:19, SD dijo:

I'm still a novice when it comes to tactics, but this is similar to something I considered as as a counter for 3 defender WB formations, such as the one Conte's Chelsea uses at game start.

• You can check how our game against Chelsea during the IC#1 turned out. As with this IC#2, I mostly focused on the attack side of the formation and didn't pay that much attention to defense, although for this game I applied some more thought as I explained there.

So you have wingers on attack duty to exploit the space behind their WBs and hopefully drag one of their CBs wide.

IWBs with hold position PI to help win the possession battle in midfield where otherwise their WBs would invariable tip the scales in their favor and also to have an easier time tracking back their wide forwards.

• This definitely worked for me. Used two TQs (instead of Wingers) + WBs overlapping and basically killed them with a completely devastating overload.

Hard working and well rounded SV(S)/SV(A) or BWM(S)/SV(A) to close down and bomb forward once possession is won.

• I formed my defense around a BWM+2CBs triangle, and used the BWM to distribute the ball quickly to my CMs (your IWBs?) Worked pretty nicely. He never ventured to much with risky passes or moves and also hold his position in front of the CBs at all times.

Finally, I envision the central winger as an AM(S) with PIs to Roam from position to encourage lateral movement and Run wide with ball to further emphasize on that(I'm typing this from work so not sure if the latter is available for a single central AM). Possibly add Dribble more, but I'm more of a fan of pass and move football. The goal is to have this player drift wide and create zonal 2v1 overloads along with the winger on either side of the pitch, basically trying to accomplish with one player what you'd usually want out of your FB+WF partnership. The drawback is that you'd be reliant on this player's intelligence and movement to pick his spots, so you need someone with good decisions, teamwork and off the ball - Thomas Muller comes to mind as the go to example of a player that would fit the bill.

• I have yet to put in-game time in it, but my first thoughts go around using Mezzalas drifting up and wide. On top of them, I still have to determine if it'd be better to use two Wingers (of some sort, probably IFs to get them inside and into the channels) and a Forward (DLF, F9,... someone who definitely drops and links with the IWBs and MZs), or 1W+2Fs. Still on the works.

I personally am a big fan of the HB role, but for this tactic I would only use it vs 2 striker formations, in which case the IWBs would lose their hold PI. Otherwise, if we have our midfielders hold position and our FBs making runs, we'd lose what I think is one of the advantages of IWBs which is less distance to cover when transitioning defensively compared to an overlapping FB.

• At least in my mind, the HB would work pretty nicely in the idea I want to develop here. Two CBs getting into the IWBs original spots, the HB forming a 3-men line, and then the rest of the system from halfway up.

As for the forward, I'm least certain about what role to use, but given that the AM would ideally would be off to a side a DLF(S) should work best to link up with the midfield and hold up the ball.

• To me, the Forward must drop and turn into an AM of some sort. I don't know what the concrete role would be, but linking with the midfield and rest of creators is definitely something he'd need to do and be good at.

Replied in the quote, not completely focusing on how I'd go against Chelsea but rather applying my answers to this IC#2, but hope it can pour some interesting stuff into what you probably expected to read as an answer. 

hace 22 horas, Robson 07 dijo:

This will be interesting.  I'm sure @westy8chimp will enjoy the doodles by the way.

Aside from the main idea I'm curious on the title Liverpool's Fluid System.  I'm continually throwing the shape concept back and forth myself - far too often in fact - so I'm always intrigued by what other people think fluid is.  I don't mean the definition (compact & more CF) but the actual application.  What's your view?

I didn't mean or wasn't going for Fluid in the title as the "Fluid Shape" that is used in FM. I used it as defined in football as a whole, in the "real world" rather than FM. I could have use other terms such as "adaptive", "transformative", or whatever.

What I meant was to represent somehow the classical "Totalvoetval" of the Dutch in that if you look at the diagrams, the original formation is something that I expect to "fluidly" turn into another thing when in attack. IWBs would turn into CMs. CMs into wingers. Wingers into Forwards. Forwards into "False Forwards/False AMs". All of that through fluid moves building from the back.

In terms of in-game application, off the top of my head I'd go with Standard/Structured. Standard to keep the team balanced and not overly defensive or attacking, and Structured to be a little longer on the pitch and have more vertical distance between the lines so players have to mover more, thus giving more time to others to change positions on the field. I know it may sound counterintuitive and may end using Fluid/Very Fluid, because again I have yet to test first approach to the system in the ME.

I hope it is clearer now.

hace 20 horas, westy8chimp dijo:

Lovely doodles 

Thanks man! I always do some paper work (or digital diagrams, whatever) because I'm a football tactics nut and I can spend hours looking at Spielverlagerung diagrams without even the context of the articles they appear in haha!

hace 7 horas, craiigman dijo:

Interested in the tactical setup here, looking forward for more.

Hope you enjoy the journey. Sorry to disappoint you by managing Pool instead of Arsenal! :P

hace 5 horas, Yoeri dijo:

I used to read that you have to create space in midfield when you want IWB. Maybe an set-up like this makes sense?

Midfield with two mezzala's and wingers who's coming inside? Or no wingers and shadow strikers? 

Just my opinion, don't know if it even make sense at all. 

Sure. The idea is what I already wrote up as a reply to Robson. IWBs => CMs; CMs => Ws; F => AM. This fluid change of positions would allow us to overload the space from midfield up as we will have two extra (unexpected) players by deploying two WBs that actually will play as CMs, still covering the back with the line of CB-HB-CB.

Given the absence of the Central Winger role, I also coincide in that Mezzala is the closer it gets to it if correctly tweaked. There is no way to create a "true" Central Winger, so I guess that would be the best I would be able to do. I also thought about tweaking the Carrilero role, but they don't get as upfield as a CW would, so I think I've already discarded that option. And yes, Wingers will be there (giving space for the Mezzalas to get into their original position) while moving to inside positions accompanying the Forward.

I don't know if it makes sense, but it is definitely a super close approach to what I had already thought about, so I'm cool with your mind. 

[westy8chimp]

16 minutes ago, okereke said:

Thanks man! I always do some paper work (or digital diagrams, whatever) because I'm a football tactics nut and I can spend hours looking at Spielverlagerung diagrams without even the context of the articles they appear in haha!

7 hours ago, craiigman said:

I cleared my desk up today... Musta found maybe 200 sheets of scrap paper covered in general football notes... Pressing diagrams, fm tactics, fantasy footy options. 

If i died they could keep my leverkusen threads going for another 20 odd seasons as the ideas are all there on paper lol

[Gegenklaus]

27 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I cleared my desk up today... Musta found maybe 200 sheets of scrap paper covered in general football notes... Pressing diagrams, fm tactics, fantasy footy options. 

If i died they could keep my leverkusen threads going for another 20 odd seasons as the ideas are all there on paper lol

[okereke]

hace 2 horas, westy8chimp dijo:

I cleared my desk up today... Musta found maybe 200 sheets of scrap paper covered in general football notes... Pressing diagrams, fm tactics, fantasy footy options. 

If i died they could keep my leverkusen threads going for another 20 odd seasons as the ideas are all there on paper lol

In name of those present here I ask for all of those docs to be photographed and uploaded and shared here. Or you can just send them over DM to me

[moolochicken]

On 30/08/2018 at 23:36, okereke said:

1. Avoid the use of overlapping WBs after using them heavily on Inspiring Concepts (IC) #1
2. Try to better defend the sides, which was something I paid not attention at all during IC#1
3. Build another fluid system, with smooth changes of positions in place
4. Focus on the midfield, overloading it by employing IWBs getting inside from the back
5. IWBs push CMs forward, which in turn push Wingers, which in turn affect the Forward(s) position too

I have noticed I have a Bournemouth save that fitted point 1, 2, 3, 4 and half of 5.

Pretty solid conceding numbers considering the defender's quality.

1. Used underlap instead of overlap. With underlap, when attack enters the final 3rd the widest it could go is at the side edge of the box.

2. Defensive winger is very static and does not push forward in attack. It is the pivot for underlapping while also providing very solid flank defense; the flanks are never outnumbered. 

3. Fuild team shape.

4. This team pushes forward and overload the midfield with sheer number of players (8 in my tactic); even the DM is on support duty but the defense is still very solid.

5. The only different part is CM didn't push wingers forward. Instead, the IWBs are pushed forward; they are even higher up the pitch than the defensive wingers.

The most threatening part of the attacking play in this tactic is the cross from the Mezzalas when they push into the side edge of the box (because with 3 players on the flank it is highly likely space for crossing can be created), which fit your Central Winger envision.  I looked through your artistic doodles and that is exactly where they should push up to, but this creates a question: if the killing blow comes from a cross, why do you need point 4 - Focus in Midfield?

If we really think about this, fulfilling point 2, 4 and 5 is actually very powerful. The product would be highly competitive even in Human vs Human matches because there are no obvious weakness and no obvious tactical tweaks can counter it immediately. 

Just for your reference. Take whatever you need 

[okereke]

After thinking about it, I've finally settled at a 4-1-2-2-1 formation, as the follow image depicts.

These are the key points to consider, which I more or less already introduced:

• 2 CBs drift wide to give space to the dropping HB, creating a 3 D-Men line to build from
• 2 IWBs turn into play-making CMs
• 2 MEZ turn into Wingers (Central Wingers)
• 2 Wingers (probably IFs) get inside
• 1 DLF to link with the IWBs during the build up and share the ball with the IFs in the area

As you can see from the names (not definitive, but projected), I won't be using players on their "natural" or most suitable positions of origin, but instead having in mind where I want them to finish the play. So, no FBs/WBs, but rather CMs into the IWB positions. The same for the two MEZ, which will actually be Wingers by nature. Given the quality of Mane/Salah and how good they are in attack, they fit the IF role so no real/dramatic changes there. As for the DLF, Firmino will probably be at that role with Milik as his most common sub.

I'll be playing some preseason games next tweaking the roles/TI/PI until I get what most resembles the idea I have in mind and post another update then.

[Gegenklaus]

Interesting to see if you can get width enough from the mezzalas or the middle gets too congested. From my experience the IWB's and Mezzalas tends to operate in the same vertical line - that being the half space.

[SmileFaceGamer]

I’m looking forward to this. I need to try some central wingers myself now

[yonko]

5 hours ago, okereke said:

After thinking about it, I've finally settled at a 4-1-2-2-1 formation, as the follow image depicts.

These are the key points to consider, which I more or less already introduced:

• 2 CBs drift wide to give space to the dropping HB, creating a 3 D-Men line to build from
• 2 IWBs turn into play-making CMs
• 2 MEZ turn into Wingers (Central Wingers)
• 2 Wingers (probably IFs) get inside
• 1 DLF to link with the IWBs during the build up and share the ball with the IFs in the area

As you can see from the names (not definitive, but projected), I won't be using players on their "natural" or most suitable positions of origin, but instead having in mind where I want them to finish the play. So, no FBs/WBs, but rather CMs into the IWB positions. The same for the two MEZ, which will actually be Wingers by nature. Given the quality of Mane/Salah and how good they are in attack, they fit the IF role so no real/dramatic changes there. As for the DLF, Firmino will probably be at that role with Kalinic as his most common sub.

I'll be playing some preseason games next tweaking the roles/TI/PI until I get what most resembles the idea I have in mind and post another update then.

I would be very interested to see how you are going to balance out the duties with the IWBs, Mezs and IFs. Also how close/deep your DLF will be to connect with the midfield. 

[okereke]

hace 7 horas, moolochicken dijo:

I have noticed I have a Bournemouth save that fitted point 1, 2, 3, 4 and half of 5.

Pretty solid conceding numbers considering the defender's quality.

1. Used underlap instead of overlap. With underlap, when attack enters the final 3rd the widest it could go is at the side edge of the box.

2. Defensive winger is very static and does not push forward in attack. It is the pivot for underlapping while also providing very solid flank defense; the flanks are never outnumbered. 

3. Fuild team shape.

4. This team pushes forward and overload the midfield with sheer number of players (8 in my tactic); even the DM is on support duty but the defense is still very solid.

5. The only different part is CM didn't push wingers forward. Instead, the IWBs are pushed forward; they are even higher up the pitch than the defensive wingers.

The most threatening part of the attacking play in this tactic is the cross from the Mezzalas when they push into the side edge of the box (because with 3 players on the flank it is highly likely space for crossing can be created), which fit your Central Winger envision.  I looked through your artistic doodles and that is exactly where they should push up to, but this creates a question: if the killing blow comes from a cross, why do you need point 4 - Focus in Midfield?

If we really think about this, fulfilling point 2, 4 and 5 is actually very powerful. The product would be highly competitive even in Human vs Human matches because there are no obvious weakness and no obvious tactical tweaks can counter it immediately. 

Just for your reference. Take whatever you need 

Great concepts you are using there, and indeed somewhat close to what I'd like to do, although not quite the same from what I read.

After a couple of quick tests during the first match of the preseason I've already reached v5 of my tactic (yes, I save "major" changes as different versions as I get closer to what would ultimately be the final system). Right now I'm using some of your instructions, so we're close in some of the stuff you mentioned. For example, underlapping works better than overlapping more than anything because I want to limit how outside the IWBs get/remain, which that allows for. I'm also applying up-pitch press, as much as I can, and playing out of defense to give time to the team to position in their offensive "target areas".

Given how you explained your formation, it is logical to apply a wider approach, something I'm going in the opposite direction here with a narrower TI. I acknowledge it may cause problems in the build of the CW role, so I still have to see how it truly affects the game, but by now it seems like the best option while looking at the whole team shape and functions.

As far as mentality and shape, I'm right now at Standard/Flexible, but don't pay that much attention to it because it may change depending on the opponent's approach and their strength.

About point 4 and the midfield focus, it is just something I'd like to achieve for the IC#2 in terms of using IWBs as pure midfield creators instead of more "classical" IWBs that ultimately end playing as WBs, only faking it by getting a little in, then out. It's more about the idea of playing two "False CMs-from-IWBs" than other thing. The focus of course would be the CWs and their in-and-out approach getting further up through the wings to generate danger.

Here are a couple of pics that depict how I'd like the team to shape in defense (left; although I don't really focus that much on defense for this IC#2, same as in IC#1 to be honest) and then what I expect to see on offense (right; with the DLF linking but also getting as further as possible when the ball reaches the final third to overload the area).

 

hace 6 horas, Gegenklaus dijo:

Interesting to see if you can get width enough from the mezzalas or the middle gets too congested. From my experience the IWB's and Mezzalas tends to operate in the same vertical line - that being the half space.

That is definitely one of the biggest challenges, getting the IWBs-CWs-IFs to work in a way that doesn't make them look silly by using the same spaces and positions on the field. Ideally the formation drawn in the board up here (my expect offensive shape) would be what I see, although it is just impossible to nail it down knowing how the ME is hard-coded in some aspects (the Mezzalas not getting wide enough, for example).

Be sure I will still try to get the best outcome I can tho!

hace 5 horas, SmileFaceGamer dijo:

I’m looking forward to this. I need to try some central wingers myself now

Let's see if I can at least achieve something close to the idea of a CW I have in mind ^^

hace 1 hora, yonko dijo:

I would be very interested to see how you are going to balance out the duties with the IWBs, Mezs and IFs. Also how close/deep your DLF will be to connect with the midfield. 

Now that you mention it, my last version of the formation through some changes features two APs rather than IFs. For some reason they represent better what I want to achieve in the current ME, although I've just played a couple of matches so I will probably end making many more changes until I reach the final version of the tactic.

Speaking of the DLF, I haven't really applied any PI to him as of now, barring CDMM to press as high and as much as possible. I will see if he works properly or if I need to turn into a strikerless formation, which I wouldn't really like for this challenge and won't probably be doing.

[Gegenklaus]

I can understand why you would use AP instead of IF’s. AP’s literally goes into the half spaces much sooner than the IF’s. The IF’s might work better if you go strikerless as they have much more space to attack. 

Still looking forward to see what you come up with. I really like using IWB’s myself. The whole logic is quite cool. They occupy CM’s position and can cover their flanks much sooner during the defensive transition - which is acutally one of the reasons likes to use them; they make the distance during defensive transition much smaller; The fals 8’s either Press high or cover in midfield - wingers can get back quicker to support the flank. 

The only thing I hate most is the goddamn wingers in AM-strata. They dont hold the width at all when the Ball gets close to goal or even before. I wanna use them in the AM strata as it really helps with the high press but they tuck inside too soon and squezze the space for the two 8’s that push up into the number 10 space/half spaces. 

The role that holds width the longest is Wide Target Man ...

the system I try to create is somewhat City’s; where the wide attackers provided width, the 8’s attacks through center and half spaces and the fullbacks protect for counter attacks and helps retaining posession. Its a really cool system as it attacks through all the channels on the pitch and protects most of the channels. 

[Swills417]

God damn! Every time I go into a well put together tactics forum thread I want to completely change my team! Could you mitigate the players not holding width by setting team instructions to the widest possible option? 

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Swills417 said:

God damn! Every time I go into a well put together tactics forum thread I want to completely change my team! Could you mitigate the players not holding width by setting team instructions to the widest possible option? 

Haha, I feel you. I’ve tried that though and in my opinion it still didn’t work. When the wingers are in the AM strata they still have a tendency to tuck inside too soon. I’ve given up and just use a high pressing 4-1-4-1.

[djpdavey]

21 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Haha, I feel you. I’ve tried that though and in my opinion it still didn’t work. When the wingers are in the AM strata they still have a tendency to tuck inside too soon. I’ve given up and just use a high pressing 4-1-4-1.

Do SI pay attention to what people try to do creatively and make changes respectively?

[westy8chimp]

On ‎03‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 22:18, Gegenklaus said:

The role that holds width the longest is Wide Target Man

Really? I didn't particularly find that.

What duty and setup was it in? I found my WTM on support was very wide as I played out of defence, but played virtually central if I was in the final 3rd (unless he had run with the ball from half way and was the provider on a particular transition).

[Gegenklaus]

15 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Really? I didn't particularly find that.

What duty and setup was it in? I found my WTM on support was very wide as I played out of defence, but played virtually central if I was in the final 3rd (unless he had run with the ball from half way and was the provider on a particular transition).

From my experience the role makes more of an effort of holding width longer than the Winger/IF-role. They still come narrow in final third. But at least they dont seem to hug their direct opponent like the IF and Winger tends to do. Actually the IW and WM are much better at holding width. But you lose some pressing pressence high up the pitch. It might have something to do with using a midfield line of four. 

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

But at least they dont seem to hug their direct opponent like the IF and Winger tends to do

yeah agree with that.

[okereke]

Preseason completed. So far, so good, yet not so good.

Am I happy with the results? Sure. Look at the numbers: 34 goals in 7 games and only 5 conceded (I don't even know what happened against MTK, the team was utter crap to be honest for some mysterious reason). Am I happy with the way the system is playing out? Hmm... Not 100%. At least not until the last game against Tranmere, which yes I know is not 2011 Barcelona but still. That felt like the game in which the tweaks I did to the formation made it work the closest to what I want to achieve. So this is it.

I know. I know. You're think "oh look at this ***** putting all those TIs and PIs and having no clue what he's doing". I understand your logic, but bear with me. You have read my thought process and what I want to achieve. You know this is not some random stuff throw to the ME that works just because the ability of the players featured in the XI. No. I'm building something I have an image of pretty clear in my mind, and that formation, and all of its instructions make it work as close as possible to how I think it should work. A few notes:

• The DLF works wonders. He drops, participates in the game, but is a threat up front. Me likes.
• I've tweaked and re-tweaked and then tweaked again what now are the IF(Su). Believe, they've driven me incredibly nuts. But finally, I think the best way to make them drop a little deeper and getting them some more into inside positions to be overlapped by the MEZ is by assigning them both the Support duty and also heavily customizing their PIs to get narrower, hold the ball and roam. I've tried countless combinations, but this seem to be the best one.
• The MEZ are never going to be "true" Central Wingers, that's for sure. I give up and we have not even started the season yet ("how dare you!?", I heard in the distance). Again and as with the last point, this is the closest to a Central Winger you can get on this FM. They are on Attack duty to give room to the coming IWBs (our truly fake/false CMs here), and I also PI'd them to run wide and dribble more.
• I was using a HB but was forced to change the role. Honestly I don't care that much about the defensive side of the game for this challenge, but I don't want to get screw over and over, and the HB made the CBs split and that created massive holes in defense that even ****** MTK exploited as hell. No more my Hungarian friends. BWM is a win-win and I loved the defensive triangle that I created in IC#1 with Celtic, so I'm cool there.
• The CBs go on Cover because holly hell those holes. Too much to stand each and every game. No more risky business down there fellas.
• The IWBs were also a little of a headache during the first creation phase (up until like v5 or v6 of the tactic -- I'm at v10 now) but I've finally gotten to a point where they are pure false-game-building-CMs. They go up, stay inside and don't go crazy overlapping, which is not what they need to do because that is supposed to be the MEZ task.
• I'm currently playing a SK because we go quite high as a block so I guess having someone deep in there covering the CBs doing stupid stuff is necessary. Not a lock tho, may get back to a classic GK in time if there is not a lot of difference.

As far as the team instructions, oh boy are they a bunch:

• I want to retain possession because I understand that makes the team take more time to finish plays and that allows players to relocate into their "real" positions on offense. It seems to be working more and more as MEZs overlap the IFs (not always but what can I do...) and the IWBs get settled in midfield pretty nicely.
• The shorter passing has more or less the same effect, and I don't think going flank-to-flank is a must here. It is not something I had in mind when developing the system and I'd rather play that short-distance game so it's alright. Same playing out of defense. I don't want long balls that go for nothing and doesn't allow the system to fully develop and display.
• By narrowing the playing space I force the IFs and IWBs to get in. It works to an extent to fulfill my ideas.
• Higher tempo and CDMM is what Klopp taught me.
• And finally, by "forcing" the underlapping instead of leaving it open I've observed that IWBs are quite restricted and remain inside the central zone of the pitch instead of going wild wide, which I don't want to even mention. It doesn't seem to affect the MEZs and IFs interaction too much, so I'm happy with it.

I'll wait and play some Premier League / EL games before updating with some images and videos so you can see how the system looks in a more detailed way, but I hope this breakdown of the stuff and update on how things are as of now gives you an idea of how I'm putting together my "real-life" thoughts into the beloved FM match engine and tactics creator.

Edit: Forgot to mention the mentality and shape:

• Standard mentality. Don't go to crazy up the pitch or sit to deep. I've come to realize I'm a disciple of the Standard, which nonetheless I change during games depending on how the opposition is playing, the result, etc... to move the lines up or down the pitch as I need it.
• Flexible shape. "Booooooriiing!" Yep. A lot. But really, nor do I want the lines to be to close (may make it hard to reach further zones against strong teams giving the whole concept developed) or too separated (basically because if we get caught we're pretty fudged against quick and precise booming counters).

As always, any comment/suggestion/question is appreciated and will be properly addressed

[okereke]

En 3/9/2018 a las 23:18, Gegenklaus dijo:

I can understand why you would use AP instead of IF’s. AP’s literally goes into the half spaces much sooner than the IF’s. The IF’s might work better if you go strikerless as they have much more space to attack. 

Still looking forward to see what you come up with. I really like using IWB’s myself. The whole logic is quite cool. They occupy CM’s position and can cover their flanks much sooner during the defensive transition - which is acutally one of the reasons likes to use them; they make the distance during defensive transition much smaller; The fals 8’s either Press high or cover in midfield - wingers can get back quicker to support the flank. 

The only thing I hate most is the goddamn wingers in AM-strata. They dont hold the width at all when the Ball gets close to goal or even before. I wanna use them in the AM strata as it really helps with the high press but they tuck inside too soon and squezze the space for the two 8’s that push up into the number 10 space/half spaces. 

The role that holds width the longest is Wide Target Man ...

the system I try to create is somewhat City’s; where the wide attackers provided width, the 8’s attacks through center and half spaces and the fullbacks protect for counter attacks and helps retaining posession. Its a really cool system as it attacks through all the channels on the pitch and protects most of the channels. 

I ditched the APs as soon as I fired the game today and played 5 minutes of the first game  I didn't want more ball-magnets on the system, much less ones with "playmaker" attached to them. We're keeping the IFs there for the time being.

As explained, IWBs are doing what I want them to do. They are false CMs and play like them. Get the ball, pass the ball, don't get too fancy. And they are hyper fast tracking back and positioning on defense (even while actually being players meant to play on CM positions as you can see by the names in my best XI).

Man if I could make your comment about the Wingers real and 100% true that'd be glorious, and I acknowledge and recognize that they may not hold the wide position as much as you'd like, but in my case I need them to get inside as hell but I don't think I'll ever get fully happy with that. At least they try, tho.

About that City system you mention, well, you know what I think about it. Lovely stuff.

En 4/9/2018 a las 13:46, Swills417 dijo:

God damn! Every time I go into a well put together tactics forum thread I want to completely change my team! Could you mitigate the players not holding width by setting team instructions to the widest possible option? 

Happens to me all the time. I read something here and I want to take on a completely different challenge. I read a book I want to start with another team. I read an article I want to sign a player. Crazy stuff haha!

Yes you can tweak players' roles with PIs and looking at their PPMs, but even with that some roles are hard-coded to work in a certain way and even for those not that exaggerated, you still find problems. Not a perfect ME, but well, we have to adapt and that makes it challenging and fun to try and come with new systems and ideas, so it's okay.

[Gegenklaus]

Why are you using IWB's on attack? Do you want them charging into the number 10 area? Why not on support?

[denen123]

11 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

From my experience the role makes more of an effort of holding width longer than the Winger/IF-role. They still come narrow in final third. But at least they dont seem to hug their direct opponent like the IF and Winger tends to do. Actually the IW and WM are much better at holding width. But you lose some pressing pressence high up the pitch. It might have something to do with using a midfield line of four. 

Agree with this,100%.

My issue is that the IF(even with stay wider) instruction, does not hug the touchline. Still plays in the half space region.

[denen123]

1 hour ago, okereke said:

Preseason completed. So far, so good, yet not so good.

Am I happy with the results? Sure. Look at the numbers: 34 goals in 7 games and only 5 conceded (I don't even know what happened against MTK, the team was utter crap to be honest for some mysterious reason). Am I happy with the way the system is playing out? Hmm... Not 100%. At least not until the last game against Tranmere, which yes I know is not 2011 Barcelona but still. That felt like the game in which the tweaks I did to the formation made it work the closest to what I want to achieve. So this is it.

I know. I know. You're think "oh look at this ***** putting all those TIs and PIs and having no clue what he's doing". I understand your logic, but bear with me. You have read my thought process and what I want to achieve. You know this is not some random stuff throw to the ME that works just because the ability of the players featured in the XI. No. I'm building something I have an image of pretty clear in my mind, and that formation, and all of its instructions make it work as close as possible to how I think it should work. A few notes:

• The DLF works wonders. He drops, participates in the game, but is a threat up front. Me likes.
• I've tweaked and re-tweaked and then tweaked again what now are the IF(Su). Believe, they've driven me incredibly nuts. But finally, I think the best way to make them drop a little deeper and getting them some more into inside positions to be overlapped by the MEZ is by assigning them both the Support duty and also heavily customizing their PIs to get narrower, hold the ball and roam. I've tried countless combinations, but this seem to be the best one.
• The MEZ are never going to be "true" Central Wingers, that's for sure. I give up and we have not even started the season yet ("how dare you!?", I heard in the distance). Again and as with the last point, this is the closest to a Central Winger you can get on this FM. They are on Attack duty to give room to the coming IWBs (our truly fake/false CMs here), and I also PI'd them to run wide and dribble more.
• I was using a HB but was forced to change the role. Honestly I don't care that much about the defensive side of the game for this challenge, but I don't want to get screw over and over, and the HB made the CBs split and that created massive holes in defense that even ****** MTK exploited as hell. No more my Hungarian friends. BWM is a win-win and I loved the defensive triangle that I created in IC#1 with Celtic, so I'm cool there.
• The CBs go on Cover because holly hell those holes. Too much to stand each and every game. No more risky business down there fellas.
• The IWBs were also a little of a headache during the first creation phase (up until like v5 or v6 of the tactic -- I'm at v10 now) but I've finally gotten to a point where they are pure false-game-building-CMs. They go up, stay inside and don't go crazy overlapping, which is not what they need to do because that is supposed to be the MEZ task.
• I'm currently playing a SK because we go quite high as a block so I guess having someone deep in there covering the CBs doing stupid stuff is necessary. Not a lock tho, may get back to a classic GK in time if there is not a lot of difference.

As far as the team instructions, oh boy are they a bunch:

• I want to retain possession because I understand that makes the team take more time to finish plays and that allows players to relocate into their "real" positions on offense. It seems to be working more and more as MEZs overlap the IFs (not always but what can I do...) and the IWBs get settled in midfield pretty nicely.
• The shorter passing has more or less the same effect, and I don't think going flank-to-flank is a must here. It is not something I had in mind when developing the system and I'd rather play that short-distance game so it's alright. Same playing out of defense. I don't want long balls that go for nothing and doesn't allow the system to fully develop and display.
• By narrowing the playing space I force the IFs and IWBs to get in. It works to an extent to fulfill my ideas.
• Higher tempo and CDMM is what Klopp taught me.
• And finally, by "forcing" the underlapping instead of leaving it open I've observed that IWBs are quite restricted and remain inside the central zone of the pitch instead of going wild wide, which I don't want to even mention. It doesn't seem to affect the MEZs and IFs interaction too much, so I'm happy with it.

I'll wait and play some Premier League / EL games before updating with some images and videos so you can see how the system looks in a more detailed way, but I hope this breakdown of the stuff and update on how things are as of now gives you an idea of how I'm putting together my "real-life" thoughts into the beloved FM match engine and tactics creator.

Edit: Forgot to mention the mentality and shape:

• Standard mentality. Don't go to crazy up the pitch or sit to deep. I've come to realize I'm a disciple of the Standard, which nonetheless I change during games depending on how the opposition is playing, the result, etc... to move the lines up or down the pitch as I need it.
• Flexible shape. "Booooooriiing!" Yep. A lot. But really, nor do I want the lines to be to close (may make it hard to reach further zones against strong teams giving the whole concept developed) or too separated (basically because if we get caught we're pretty fudged against quick and precise booming counters).

As always, any comment/suggestion/question is appreciated and will be properly addressed

Question: There's emphasis on why you wanted a 'narrow play'. But then you still want width with the movements of the central wingers.

I'm asking to understand, please.

[yonko]

On 03/09/2018 at 14:18, Gegenklaus said:

I can understand why you would use AP instead of IF’s. AP’s literally goes into the half spaces much sooner than the IF’s. The IF’s might work better if you go strikerless as they have much more space to attack. 

Still looking forward to see what you come up with. I really like using IWB’s myself. The whole logic is quite cool. They occupy CM’s position and can cover their flanks much sooner during the defensive transition - which is acutally one of the reasons likes to use them; they make the distance during defensive transition much smaller; The fals 8’s either Press high or cover in midfield - wingers can get back quicker to support the flank. 

The only thing I hate most is the goddamn wingers in AM-strata. They dont hold the width at all when the Ball gets close to goal or even before. I wanna use them in the AM strata as it really helps with the high press but they tuck inside too soon and squezze the space for the two 8’s that push up into the number 10 space/half spaces. 

The role that holds width the longest is Wide Target Man ...

the system I try to create is somewhat City’s; where the wide attackers provided width, the 8’s attacks through center and half spaces and the fullbacks protect for counter attacks and helps retaining posession. Its a really cool system as it attacks through all the channels on the pitch and protects most of the channels. 

 

On 04/09/2018 at 06:04, Gegenklaus said:

Haha, I feel you. I’ve tried that though and in my opinion it still didn’t work. When the wingers are in the AM strata they still have a tendency to tuck inside too soon. I’ve given up and just use a high pressing 4-1-4-1.

 

13 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

From my experience the role makes more of an effort of holding width longer than the Winger/IF-role. They still come narrow in final third. But at least they dont seem to hug their direct opponent like the IF and Winger tends to do. Actually the IW and WM are much better at holding width. But you lose some pressing pressence high up the pitch. It might have something to do with using a midfield line of four. 

 

2 hours ago, denen123 said:

Agree with this,100%.

My issue is that the IF(even with stay wider) instruction, does not hug the touchline. Still plays in the half space region.

The ME thinks of players in the AMR/L positions as wide forwards more than like true wingers. Therefore it is normal for most roles to find themselves central in the final 3rd.

Remember, before we had the option to put players in the STR/L, but not anymore. 

Personally I like the fact that AMR/L go inside in the final 3rd.

How many teams use old fashioned wingers these days, anyway? Most tactics require the wide attacking midfielders to attack and score goals as wide forwards.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, okereke said:

Preseason completed. So far, so good, yet not so good.

Am I happy with the results? Sure. Look at the numbers: 34 goals in 7 games and only 5 conceded (I don't even know what happened against MTK, the team was utter crap to be honest for some mysterious reason). Am I happy with the way the system is playing out? Hmm... Not 100%. At least not until the last game against Tranmere, which yes I know is not 2011 Barcelona but still. That felt like the game in which the tweaks I did to the formation made it work the closest to what I want to achieve. So this is it.

I know. I know. You're think "oh look at this ***** putting all those TIs and PIs and having no clue what he's doing". I understand your logic, but bear with me. You have read my thought process and what I want to achieve. You know this is not some random stuff throw to the ME that works just because the ability of the players featured in the XI. No. I'm building something I have an image of pretty clear in my mind, and that formation, and all of its instructions make it work as close as possible to how I think it should work. A few notes:

• The DLF works wonders. He drops, participates in the game, but is a threat up front. Me likes.
• I've tweaked and re-tweaked and then tweaked again what now are the IF(Su). Believe, they've driven me incredibly nuts. But finally, I think the best way to make them drop a little deeper and getting them some more into inside positions to be overlapped by the MEZ is by assigning them both the Support duty and also heavily customizing their PIs to get narrower, hold the ball and roam. I've tried countless combinations, but this seem to be the best one.
• The MEZ are never going to be "true" Central Wingers, that's for sure. I give up and we have not even started the season yet ("how dare you!?", I heard in the distance). Again and as with the last point, this is the closest to a Central Winger you can get on this FM. They are on Attack duty to give room to the coming IWBs (our truly fake/false CMs here), and I also PI'd them to run wide and dribble more.
• I was using a HB but was forced to change the role. Honestly I don't care that much about the defensive side of the game for this challenge, but I don't want to get screw over and over, and the HB made the CBs split and that created massive holes in defense that even ****** MTK exploited as hell. No more my Hungarian friends. BWM is a win-win and I loved the defensive triangle that I created in IC#1 with Celtic, so I'm cool there.
• The CBs go on Cover because holly hell those holes. Too much to stand each and every game. No more risky business down there fellas.
• The IWBs were also a little of a headache during the first creation phase (up until like v5 or v6 of the tactic -- I'm at v10 now) but I've finally gotten to a point where they are pure false-game-building-CMs. They go up, stay inside and don't go crazy overlapping, which is not what they need to do because that is supposed to be the MEZ task.
• I'm currently playing a SK because we go quite high as a block so I guess having someone deep in there covering the CBs doing stupid stuff is necessary. Not a lock tho, may get back to a classic GK in time if there is not a lot of difference.

As far as the team instructions, oh boy are they a bunch:

• I want to retain possession because I understand that makes the team take more time to finish plays and that allows players to relocate into their "real" positions on offense. It seems to be working more and more as MEZs overlap the IFs (not always but what can I do...) and the IWBs get settled in midfield pretty nicely.
• The shorter passing has more or less the same effect, and I don't think going flank-to-flank is a must here. It is not something I had in mind when developing the system and I'd rather play that short-distance game so it's alright. Same playing out of defense. I don't want long balls that go for nothing and doesn't allow the system to fully develop and display.
• By narrowing the playing space I force the IFs and IWBs to get in. It works to an extent to fulfill my ideas.
• Higher tempo and CDMM is what Klopp taught me.
• And finally, by "forcing" the underlapping instead of leaving it open I've observed that IWBs are quite restricted and remain inside the central zone of the pitch instead of going wild wide, which I don't want to even mention. It doesn't seem to affect the MEZs and IFs interaction too much, so I'm happy with it.

I'll wait and play some Premier League / EL games before updating with some images and videos so you can see how the system looks in a more detailed way, but I hope this breakdown of the stuff and update on how things are as of now gives you an idea of how I'm putting together my "real-life" thoughts into the beloved FM match engine and tactics creator.

Edit: Forgot to mention the mentality and shape:

• Standard mentality. Don't go to crazy up the pitch or sit to deep. I've come to realize I'm a disciple of the Standard, which nonetheless I change during games depending on how the opposition is playing, the result, etc... to move the lines up or down the pitch as I need it.
• Flexible shape. "Booooooriiing!" Yep. A lot. But really, nor do I want the lines to be to close (may make it hard to reach further zones against strong teams giving the whole concept developed) or too separated (basically because if we get caught we're pretty fudged against quick and precise booming counters).

As always, any comment/suggestion/question is appreciated and will be properly addressed

I'm interested to see how your players are positioned on the pitch. Do you have some screenshots?

Very interesting that you have drop deep while also closing down much more. In addition both CDs are on Cover. 

[djpdavey]

Can we get a clip of the play?

[Gegenklaus]

7 hours ago, yonko said:

 

 

 

The ME thinks of players in the AMR/L positions as wide forwards more than like true wingers. Therefore it is normal for most roles to find themselves central in the final 3rd.

Remember, before we had the option to put players in the STR/L, but not anymore. 

Personally I like the fact that AMR/L go inside in the final 3rd.

How many teams use old fashioned wingers these days, anyway? Most tactics require the wide attacking midfielders to attack and score goals as wide forwards.

Ah, good point as always, Yonko. I actually didnt notice that with STR/L-positions.

[okereke]

hace 10 horas, Gegenklaus dijo:

Why are you using IWB's on attack? Do you want them charging into the number 10 area? Why not on support?

This has to do with a few things. First, I need my IWBs as CMs covering the whole midfield because MEZ are not supposed to play that role when we are on attack (they are supposed to turn into wingers). Second, if I don't play them on attack, I've seen (or at least I think) that they hit a wall and don't go upfield enough to my liking. Third, they produce overloading situations around the opposition area through the center of the pitch and force the MEZ to get a little wider. Fourth, they sometimes even roam around the edge of the box, which is great for recycling possession. Fifth, they're often so high the pitch that can't track back in time, leaving my CBs and BWM exposed and thus creating exciting moments for the fans out there in the stand. Wait, forget about that fifth point. I need to fix that.

hace 10 horas, denen123 dijo:

Question: There's emphasis on why you wanted a 'narrow play'. But then you still want width with the movements of the central wingers.

I'm asking to understand, please.

This is the struggle of this challenge. Basically, there are three key roles in the system and two completely opposite ways of work for them. Simply put, we have:

• IWBs + IFs => Start wide, need to get inside.
• MEZ => Start inside, need to get wide.

So we can say that we need to widen the field for the MEZ to turn into wingers hugging the touchline, but that would make the IWBs and IFs stay too wide and we don't want that, so we need to counter-act by applying the narrower instruction in order to keep things in kind of place. It is not obvious, it is not perfect, but I don't think there is a better way to mix and mangle all of the concepts running. Yes it may makes the MEZ not go as wide as possible, but they're really not going to go that wide even if applying a wider shape, so I think it's not worth doing it (because then IWBs and IFs would be much more outside than I want them to, so the problems outweigh the benefits).

Again, hard to achieve the system in the current ME because after all it is all a huge mix of tweaks to try and put it in play, so some things are counterintuitive and definitely not perfect. It is just about finding the right balance and what most resembles the idea, given the impossibility of nailing it down 100%.

hace 7 horas, yonko dijo:

I'm interested to see how your players are positioned on the pitch. Do you have some screenshots?

Very interesting that you have drop deep while also closing down much more. In addition both CDs are on Cover. 

Same as with the first quote, I hate to do stuff like the one you mention. I'd never play a super deep defensive block and close down a lot, because that may cause and over-stretched formation full of holes everywhere and people running out of position quite frequently. But here, seeing how the defensive pair of CBs and the HB/BWM were destroyed by long balls I wanted to keep them in place as deep and restrained as possible, while still trying to put pressure on the opposition's creative players to try and recover the ball quickly or at least force bad decisions at the start of their plays.

The fact both CBs are on Cover is related to what I already said. I know it may sound extreme, and it may change over time when I play more games against stronger teams and see how the pair works, but I just wanted to have two guys down there with restricted duties just focusing on defending.

hace 2 horas, djpdavey dijo:

Can we get a clip of the play?

Sure. I will play some more demanding games (Premier League and the start of the Europa League) and then upload some videos and provide some tactical image breakdown as I did in IC#1. I just didn't want to start pumping stuff during the preseason because it may not fully represent how the system works given the weak opposition.

[Swills417]

I switched to a variant of this tactic for the last 20 minutes of a EPL game the other night and was delighted with the results. I took of a number of senior players off and replaced them with u-23s. As Arsenal with Ben Sheaf playing as a Mezzela  assisting a goal from Josh Da Silva as an inverted wingback lashing one in from the edge of the box. Also experienced the pitfalls of defending with being exposed to long ball and through balls in behind. Will see how it goes as a backup tactic when chasing a game or seeing out a dominating win. 

[andymankc]

I am still wondering why people try to complicate simple things. I am not saying that this is unsucesfull tactic but. Wide players go inside and central players go wide. Even this is the most succesfull tactic ever I am not going to use, because I think that this is pure using game in wrong way. 

[Gegenklaus]

15 minutes ago, andymankc said:

I am still wondering why people try to complicate simple things. I am not saying that this is unsucesfull tactic but. Wide players go inside and central players go wide. Even this is the most succesfull tactic ever I am not going to use, because I think that this is pure using game in wrong way. 

The movement is simple and in theory hard for the opposition to defend against. Who pick up the IWB when he moves into midfield, while the midfielder moves wide and the winger tucks in? It makes the opposition question how to defend against as 6 players makes the move and space for each other. That’s the goal, I think.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, andymankc said:

I am still wondering why people try to complicate simple things. I am not saying that this is unsucesfull tactic but. Wide players go inside and central players go wide. Even this is the most succesfull tactic ever I am not going to use, because I think that this is pure using game in wrong way. 

it's not that unusual... Barca in their prime used triangles.. with Iniesta very much a Mezala... coming deep to work a triangle with busquets and xavi... then further up the field he drifted wide to have triangle with alba and (who followed Ronaldinho as left inside forward? Would be Henry, Sanchez or Pedro i guess?) then that inside forward would drift central linking with the striker (ibra/messi) and the opposite winger (inside forward) messi/sanchez

[westy8chimp]

@okereke i haven't kept up with the thread as much as id have liked because your images don't show on my work laptop... but in line with my previous statement... I'd go as far as to add, you should try wb/IWB with underlap if you haven't already... carnage.

using the Barca example, wasn't that unusual to see Iniesta wider than the Inside forward who would run central, but also Alba performing underlap to cross from the byline within or on the edge of the box.

[denen123]

1 hour ago, andymankc said:

I am still wondering why people try to complicate simple things. I am not saying that this is unsucesfull tactic but. Wide players go inside and central players go wide. Even this is the most succesfull tactic ever I am not going to use, because I think that this is pure using game in wrong way. 

Hmmmmm....

Would like to know what the right way is. 

[Gegenklaus]

10 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@okereke i haven't kept up with the thread as much as id have liked because your images don't show on my work laptop... but in line with my previous statement... I'd go as far as to add, you should try wb/IWB with underlap if you haven't already... carnage.

using the Barca example, wasn't that unusual to see Iniesta wider than the Inside forward who would run central, but also Alba performing underlap to cross from the byline within or on the edge of the box.

De Bruyne, Sterling and Walker does it now at City. Sterling goes central, de Bruyne goes wide and Walker underlaps de Bruyne. In other words:

Winger turns into a striker

Attacking midfielder turns into a winger

Fullback turns into attacking midfielder

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

Winger turns into a striker

Attacking midfielder turns into a winger

Fulllback turns into attacking midfielder

precisely, the better teams have very 'dynamic' triangles where at different phases players are both the outside, inside or top of the triangle. Not rigidly moving up or down simultaneously, rather... flowing around each other in 'give-and-go' style

[argenmik]

19 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

De Bruyne, Sterling and Walker does it now at City. Sterling goes central, de Bruyne goes wide and Walker underlaps de Bruyne. In other words:

 Winger turns into a striker

Attacking midfielder turns into a winger

Fullback turns into attacking midfielder

i was literally about to reply with this! although this season with the return of mendy we have seen sterling move to the left and bernardo or mahrez occupy the right flank. 

[Gegenklaus]

26 minutes ago, argenmik said:

i was literally about to reply with this! although this season with the return of mendy we have seen sterling move to the left and bernardo or mahrez occupy the right flank. 

Yes exactly. Although Bernardo been used on several positions; midfielder, wingback(?!)/winger, second striker/AM. He is, like Mendy, going to have a incredible season. 

[andymankc]

1 hour ago, denen123 said:

Hmmmmm....

Would like to know what the right way is. 

Right way? Wide players mostly go wide. For me it is fine to have one inside forward or one side back to go inside but this is like making joke of the game. I have not see any team to play like this. We have Pep and inward wingers but CM's are in the middle and wingers are hugging touchline.

[andymankc]

Just now, andymankc said:

Right way? Wide players mostly go wide. For me it is fine to have one inside forward or one side back to go inside but this is like making joke of the game. I have not see any team to play like this. We have Pep and inward wingers but CM's are in the middle and wingers are hugging touchline.

inward backs. My mistake

[okereke]

"Remember when I signed my contract a few months ago and moved to Merseyside? Remember what they said? 'He won't make it here as in Scotland. He won't be able to handle this level of play. This is no one-team league. No minnows here.' They can suck it now, that's what I say."

- Robbie Gould, Liverpool's manager.

PS: I did this post for fun and I know karma will hit me back in the forehead making me lose like 8 or 10 games in a row, just in case.

[denen123]

4 hours ago, andymankc said:

Right way? Wide players mostly go wide. For me it is fine to have one inside forward or one side back to go inside but this is like making joke of the game. I have not see any team to play like this. We have Pep and inward wingers but CM's are in the middle and wingers are hugging touchline.

'Wingers stay wide'. I probed okereke about his narrow play so that's already covered.

The CM's in the Dynamics of Peps's play, actually go wide. Attacking half spaces, & like De bruyne last season from deep, goes wide & delivers crosses. Occasionally cuts in and shoots(mezzala like behaviour i.e Chelsea 1-0 last season). 

Maybe you can explain it better. Just for understanding sake.

[Old Scouser Tommy]

7 hours ago, andymankc said:

 but this is like making joke of the game.

It's not making a joke of the game. I think you're being unfair there. @okereke has developed a style of play which is winning football matches. Winning matches is about exploiting weaknesses in an opponents tactical system and taking advantage of those weaknesses. His system is doing that and he deserves credit for implementing his style of play and winning games. There is no right or wrong way to play the game only differing opinions as to 'how' it is played. Every manager has a way they want there teams to play.

If you haven't seen any teams play in this way, using Inverted Fullbacks tucking in allowing Central Midfielders to move into wide areas and Wingers/Inside Forwards coming inside I'm not sure what you've been watching. Pep Guardiola's Man City side do this to great affect. Sane especially starts very wide but is often on the end of crosses and through balls from De Bruyne who is a central player but has moved wide to occupy half spaces. His fullback will then tuck in to provide cover in the area he has vacated. It's quite simple and like @westy8chimp and others have explained it creates passing triangles which in turn create space and essentially goalscoring chances. Coutinho at Livepool would at times start centrally and drift wide to allow Mane to come inside. Iniesta at Barceona would also drift into wide areas from a central starting position and create these passing triangles with fullbacks and wide forwards or wingers. This is not a new thing and is probably quite difficult to get right on FM. I'm using Inverted Wingbacks at the moment actually and I really like how it gives me cover in central areas but still gives me width. My leftback actually has 4 goals in 9 games at the start of the season for Benevento playing as an Inverted Wingback.

@okereke I like how your system looks and you're having good results with it. Reading the thread I know you've put a lot of work and thought into it and now reaping the rewards. I'm really interested to see how it continues.

[yonko]

21 hours ago, okereke said:

Same as with the first quote, I hate to do stuff like the one you mention. I'd never play a super deep defensive block and close down a lot, because that may cause and over-stretched formation full of holes everywhere and people running out of position quite frequently. But here, seeing how the defensive pair of CBs and the HB/BWM were destroyed by long balls I wanted to keep them in place as deep and restrained as possible, while still trying to put pressure on the opposition's creative players to try and recover the ball quickly or at least force bad decisions at the start of their plays.

The fact both CBs are on Cover is related to what I already said. I know it may sound extreme, and it may change over time when I play more games against stronger teams and see how the pair works, but I just wanted to have two guys down there with restricted duties just focusing on defending.

I don't think you should be in trouble when using Standard mentality with normal D-Line, closing down, defend duty CBs and HB. I've never had problems with such set up even when I push up the D-line and use offside trap. And I use 2 WBs on Attack. For the record my CBs had 12/13 for pace and acceleration, though anticipation, concentration and positioning were at 14/15+.

I think the trick in your system is that it has a lot of moving parts during transitions. But I still think you have gone a little to the extreme with the deep line and covering duty. Even more interesting would be if you moved the IWBs to play from the WB positions. Use HB and watch the CBs split really wide.