Tactical Challenges #4: Inspiration

[herne79]

Sometimes when launching into a new save (or evolving an existing one) we can be left scratching our heads thinking "now what?".  Well, I can anyway .

When I get to that stage sometimes I'll look around the internet at how real life or historical clubs and players supposedly played to get some ideas about what I want to do next.  I've written about that before in FM16 where I sprinkled a little Giggs and Beckham onto my 2 wide players.

I'm not talking about tactical recreations here - that's something very different and not what this challenge is about - this is just getting an idea and applying it to your game.  It doesn't matter if your (or your inspiration's) perception of how somebody plays in real life is right or wrong, it's simply taking an idea and running with it.

So, The Challenge: Take any club you like (create your own if you want to), find some tactical inspiration for your new tactical system, tell us what that inspiration is and then go about applying it to your chosen club.  And avoid being sacked .

Some Examples to Illustrate

1.  I've already mentioned my FM16 4-4-2 above.  Taking just a couple of players, rather than a complete tactic, helped me shape how I wanted my team to play.

2.  For my Strikerless tactic I took inspiration from a picture of Roma's strikerless formation I found online:

I have no idea whether Roma actually played like that or not, but that's not the point.  It's just some inspiration.  It gave me an idea which I would never have thought of myself.

3.  More recently I've been developing a 4-2-3-1 system where I wanted to use a False 9 / False 10 combination.  I found this picture:

Again, I'm not for a moment saying that's how Barcelona played, but it gave me ideas for my system and I've been happily using it at both West Ham and Truro City:

[westy8chimp]

Is that the f9/f10 combo you mentioned in my F9 season by chance?

[herne79]

Yeh, it got me thinking about it again .

[Uncle_Sam]

I'm actually interested in getting in on this, I just want to make sure that I'm consistent with the intent of this challenge.

So here's my "inspiration". In my current save I'm playing a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide but I've never been super happy with how we get the AMR & AML to play, and I've kind of struggled to find good wingers anyway. So my "inspiration" is this: to go back to my days of playing FM with the 4-2-2-2 DM Narrow. I've thought back to the 2006 World Cup, specifically, and how Brazil played the early matches with Kaka and Ronaldinho as dual "number 10s" and Ronaldo and Adriano as dual "number 9s".

Does that fit what you're trying to do or is that more of a tactical recreation?

[herne79]

28 minutes ago, Uncle_Sam said:

I'm actually interested in getting in on this, I just want to make sure that I'm consistent with the intent of this challenge.

So here's my "inspiration". In my current save I'm playing a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide but I've never been super happy with how we get the AMR & AML to play, and I've kind of struggled to find good wingers anyway. So my "inspiration" is this: to go back to my days of playing FM with the 4-2-2-2 DM Narrow. I've thought back to the 2006 World Cup, specifically, and how Brazil played the early matches with Kaka and Ronaldinho as dual "number 10s" and Ronaldo and Adriano as dual "number 9s".

Does that fit what you're trying to do or is that more of a tactical recreation?

Sure, get involved .

When I say "tactical recreations" it's more to do with trying to completely emulate a tactical system, and that can be extremely subjective and open to all sorts of contradictory opinions.  I'm sure some people may say Brazil '06 didn't have dual #10s and dual #9s and they may or may not be right.  But that's not the point.  What's important is that's the idea you have - your inspiration - and you're running with it.

Get stuck in .

[Uncle_Sam]

Cool. I'll probably finish the season I'm in with my current save and then start installing the new setup next season and begin posting about it. I'm at about the midway point.

[Uncle_Sam]

Forgive me for the question, but for my "inspiration", should I start my own thread or post my progress here? I wasn't sure if there was a standard procedure for this...

[herne79]

Whatever you like.  In previous challenges most people have posted within the threads whereas westy made his own threads, but then he kind of went full nuclear on the amount of writing and posts he did.

There's no procedure .

[westy8chimp]

Anything based on a Brazil world cup side demands it's own thread... 

Herne... Within 5 mins of reading this challenge id picked my inspiration, how i will translate it in FM... And spent an hour at work prepping the post...(this forum should have ability to create a topic in draft)...would save me a lot of paper. So yeh... Season 12 rareing to go once i punish season 11!

[Robson 07]

Wherever we go next, great post right there @Uncle_Sam

[ericstpeter]

4 hours ago, Uncle_Sam said:

The Brazilian national team was very optimistic heading into the 2006 World Cup in Germany. They were the defending world champions. They were managed by Carlos Albert Parreira who had won the World Cup with the 1994 Brazil squad. They had four of the most productive attacking players in football up front. Ronaldo had won the Golden Boot at the 2002 World Cup with 8 goals. His strike partner would be Adriano, who had just helped Inter Milan win the Italian Serie A championship with 13 goals. Ronaldinho and Barcelona did the double, winning both La Liga in Spain and the UEFA Champions League thanks in part to the playmaker’s 26 goals in all competitions. And the final member of the “magic quartet”, Kaka, had just put his signature on a stellar campaign with AC Milan where he scored 19 goals. Throw in a pair of the most dynamic attacking fullbacks the game had ever seen in Cafu and Roberto Carlos, and everyone expected this team to not only win the World Cup with ease, but do it while scoring 4-5 goals a game.

So after a quarter final exit at the hands of the French, everyone rushed to the conclusion that the system had been a failure, and of course, Parreira was to blame. The magic quartet only scored 6 goals, and the team “only” managed 10. The French kept a clean sheet against the vaunted Selecao. Will a look back at Brazil’s performance 12 years later confirm the assertion that what FM would call the 4-2-2-2 DM Narrow to blame for their failure to lose the tournament?

First of all, let’s try and define failure. If Brazil failed simply because they didn’t win the World Cup, then the other 197 national teams who gave it a go failed as well. Now, obviously Brazil is to be held to a higher standard than at least around 190 of those nations due to the immense quality of players that they produce and develop. However, I find it a bit unfair to dismiss Brazil’s performance solely based on a one-goal loss to the finalist who could only be eliminated by the eventual champion on penalties. That France team was loaded, with Henry, Zidane, Ribery, Viera, Malouda, Abidal, Gallas, Makelele, and Barthez just to name a few. In my eyes Brazil could be commended for keeping it a competitive match.

It’s also worth looking at Brazil’s squad. Heading into the tournament, the starting 11 pretty much picked themselves. To overlook any of those guys would have been utterly absurd. With hindsight, however, we now see that the biggest names were not without flaw. Ronaldo’s work ethic had always been questioned. Parreira expressed frustration when the striker rejected a call-up for the Confederations Cup (that Brazil won with ease) the previous summer. The season after the World Cup at Real Madrid, Ronaldo struggled with “injuries” and fitness (or FATness, depending on who you ask) and only made 7 league appearances and scored only once. While Adriano had powered through the season before the World Cup, he never regained his peak form after the death of his father in 2005. Aside from one prolific season at Flamengo in 2009, Adriano’s career imploded immediately after the 06 World Cup.

I also don’t think Parreira and Brazil really appreciated how old Cafu (36) and Roberto Carlos (33) had really gotten. One of the brilliant adjustments by Luiz Felipe Scolari’s in winning the 2002 World Cup was adding a third center back so the two wingbacks didn’t have to worry as much about their defensive responsibilities. Now having four more years of wear-and-tear on their legs and being expected to help more in the back, they simply couldn’t provide as much width to the magic quartet.

I also believe it’s worth noting that Parreira accomplished one of his main objectives with the 4-4-2 box midfield: be organized defensively so the front four could be creative and do their work. They only allowed two goals in their five matches played. One goal was scored by a very fit Japanese side managed by a Brazilian who understood the Selecao style of play. The other, of course, by Thierry Henry, one of the most prolific goal scorers of all time with a team of world class players behind him. Had the magic quartet been able to get anywhere close to their pre-tournament expectations, there is little debating that Brazil was good enough defensively to have won the tournament.

 

 

Translating the vision to FM

Can you build a tactic like Brazil’s 2006 system in FM and be successful? In the last few versions my answer would have been… no. There are a few inherent challenges in the match engine that make it difficult to not only be successful with the formation, but to recreate it accurately. Before I begin I’ll state that I have kind of a pet peeve with using formations that are not available to the AI. Not that I never have, I just prefer not to. I know that this is not necessarily true, but it feels like I am trying to “break” the match engine when doing this. So for the purpose of this challenge I will be using the 4-2-2-2 DM Narrow. So let’s look at what has to be overcome.

First of all there is a natural “gap” between the strikers and the central midfielders.

As I stated I prefer not using formations that the AI doesn’t have access to, so I’m not going to try pushing the two MCs up to AMC. Even if I did that, there would be a gap between the AMCs and the DMCs that would have to be accounted for.

Another challenge is getting the MCs to function properly. Ronaldinho and Kaka had the freedom to move outside. They actually would spend most of their time operating in the half spaces. I do have some experience coaching the 4-4-2 Box, and our default movement pattern should look something like this:

When the ball is with, say, Ze Roberto (or Roberto Carlos) on the left, then Ronaldinho would look for space in the half space or even out wide. Ze Roberto would then have the option of looking ahead to Ronaldo (the ideal option), or either of the “#10s” Ronaldinho or Kaka, or for Roberto Carlos overlapping or even dropping back to Emerson to circulate to the other side.

After the ball is dropped to Emerson, Ronaldinho comes back to the middle and Kaka looks for space. The strikers reorganize almost to the point of creating a 4-3-3. So where FM has simply been useless in the past is getting those MCs to properly explore the space from the middle to the wide channels.

Part of what also inspired me to take on this project was the new Mezzala role in FM that might help me get the MCs playing more like Kaka and Ronaldinho did in Parreira's system. In most real life versions of the Brazilian 4-4-2 Box Midfield you have one DM that acts as the "First" defensive midfielder who collects the ball from the back line and links to the rest of the midfield. The other defensive midfielder is the "Second" defensive midfielder who is usually positioned a little higher than the first DM and has a little more freedom to go forward. This "Second" Defensive Midfielder is actually the inspiration for the new "Segundo Volante" role in FM. The first example that comes to my mind is Dunga, and how he played in Parreira's system in the 1994 World Cup. In the 2006 World Cup as I remember it, Ze Roberto and Emerson both played as "Primeiro Volantes", but I will likely incorporate the Segundo Volante role at some point.

...NEXT I will look at the defensive obstacles of this "inspiration" 

Love this! What mentality, shape, TI/PIs will you use?

[Uncle_Sam]

7 minutes ago, ericstpeter said:

Love this! What mentality, shape, TI/PIs will you use?

I'm probably not going to begin this until I have completed my current season, so right now it's very preliminary. But, I'm thinking Standard mentality and Flexible or Structured shape. Brazil wouldn't be what you'd call a pressing team but they do try and build up patiently out of the back so I'm thinking Play Out of Defense and Work Ball Into Box with a lower mentality.

[kpsia518]

https://www.thecoachingmanual.com/Content/4820819387613184

Wingers caming inside

 

Central Midfielders pushing up

 

[zlatanera]

Well, my River Plate strikerless challenge has lost its appeal for me a little - after 2 Copa Libertadores, 2 Copa Argentina and 2 Superliga I crashed out of both cups early on, am running away with the league and have too many players (140 at my last count) to be bothered repeatedly loaning / selling. These challenges have helped me keep interested, so why not keep up my streak and do number four? 

Three sources of inspiration:

1. Myself - my Fiorentina save on FM17 was one of two long-term ones, and I gradually restricted myself after each of my three Serie A titles - first going to only HG-Italy players, then through great effort restricting myself to only players born / trained in Tuscany (making us a purple Athletic Club).

2. 

 A guy who isn't a fan of the team he's managing (my favourite team), utilising the unlimited budget to get a very specific squad, similar to myself in 1. but quicker and easier.

3. 

With the exception of the Lyon trio of Geuebbels, Gouiri and Maolida I've not really done much focussed youth development, a lot of Serie A saves have led me to gamble in the loan market quite a lot. Plus I just haven't had the length of saves (2021 is the furthest I've gone) so I'd like to do that a bit more.

 

So I'm going with a club who I strongly dislike in real life, restricting my players geographically, and aiming to develop youth, but I don't want it to be too hard...

 

PSG!  A ton of money, one of the best supplies of talent around in the Paris area, and a player I really want to manage (Mbappé, whose move I found less frustrating on the level of him going home, even as I hate how they're getting away with spending so much). I'll update here the first couple of seasons, don't intend to do anything interesting tactically though so no point making my own thread.

[TheJanitor]

So a couple of days ago I was searching for a team to have a final save with. A couple of people (including the gentleman above this post) suggested Burton Albion, a fairly unassuming side who plays in the Championship. I looked for inspiration and found it with the club's yellow and black kit, that strikes a resemblance with BVB Dortmund. I was inspired to focus on youth development after reading this fantastic article:

https://www.ft.com/content/da604a8c-fb13-11e7-a492-2c9be7f3120a

In 2005, Dortmund were in a pretty bad shape after over-spending themselves into the brink of bankrupsy. They realised that, in order to stabilize the club and close the gap from Bayern, they must nurture young talent instead of spending on ready-made players. A few years later, a team featuring homegrown talents like Gotze, Sahin and Großkreutz, as well as players who joined at a young age like Kagawa and Bender, won the Bundesliga.

Now, not every low-means club should base their strategy on youth development, but unassuming Burton has a state of the art training and youth facilities, since they use the same ones as the NT:

Check out the Pirelli stadium. The smallest capacity in the league, about half of Brentford's Griffin Park, the 2nd smallest capacity stadium in the league.

Now, youth development also hinges on other thing like coaching and recruitment, and Burton is average at best in those departments. However, this is a very solid base to start with. Here's another article, about how the facilities already made a positive impact on the club, despite using it for only a few years:

http://trainingground.guru/articles/st-georges-park-boosting-burtons-academy-ambitions

[TheJanitor]

Taking charge over the Brewers

Just to summarize my previous post, I'm taking over Burton Albion. The source of insipiration is in the club's yellow and black kits and impressive facilities - I basically want to replicate Borussia Dortmund's journey from the brink of bankrupsy to success by nurturing young talent. I'm starting without the first transfer window, which is traditional for me for past three versions of the game. The squad I start with is the default one, minus Darren Bent, who's loan was cut short. No point having a 20k p/w player who's injured for 6/7 months.

 

Youth Prospects

Since I'm focusing at youth development, the first thing I want to look at is players who have potential. In short, there isn't much. These are our brightest prospects (not including loanees):

I don't anyone of them has the potential of being more than decent Championship-level players, but I feel like it is important to get the best out of them.

As you can notice, all of them got Balanced personality. Sadly, it's going to stay that way. We haven't got anyone who could tutor this bunch. This will be addressed in future transfer windows.

 

Squad Building

When considering the way I wish to shape my squad, I want to take another leaf from Dortmund and create a fit, hard-working squad. A team of Burton's means and reputation would struggle to attract highly technical talents, however the Championship is littered with players who willing and able to outrun other players, and this is the sort of "club DNA" that I want us to have, at least on start. For now, these are the attributes I'm looking at:

• Determination - This attribute reflects the player's commitment to succeed and do his very best on and off the pitch.
• Teamwork - This attribute reflects how the player can follow tactical instructions whilst working for and along-side hist team-mates.
• Workrate - This attribute reflects the player's willingness to work to his full capacity, going above and beyond the call of duty.
• Stamina - This attribute reflects the player's ability to endure high-level physical activity for extended periods of time.

Looking at the players above, Jamie Allen is the one who fits my vision the most. Miller and Sbarra less so.

 

Early Tactical Musing

Burton's starting squad is quite poor. Most of the players are League 1 level and keep the club afloat in the first season will be a challenging task for someone who's used to playing with the likes of Liverpool, Napoli and Dortmund like me. I'm really somewhat of a fish out of water in this situation, so I want to keep thing simple.  Looking at our squad depth, we seem to be stocked in center backs, defensive midfield, central midfield and upfront, while lacking attacking midfielders and quality out wide. My two best players are probably wingbacks Lloyd Dyer and John Brayford. For those reasons, I am contemplating a 5-1-2-2 formation:

It seems like a good fit for us. A formation that offers good cover and allows us to get the most out of our best players. I've yet to decide on the roles and instructions but I will get there later.

[TheJanitor]

Staff

Another important part of implementing my vision is improving the quality of the existing personnel. Having high-quality staff members with good personality is importat for finding and nurturing youth products. Usually, when starting a new save, I don't like create a massive turnover of staff members. Things wouldn't be much different now, since my starting staff memebers are not so bad and improving on them would be hard, due to the clubs reputation and finances.

 

Assistant Manager

What I want my assistant to be is a good coach with good personality and ability of judging players. Crosby isn't exactly world-class, but he is as good as it gets for us (expect this sentiment to pop up again a few times).

 

Head of Youth Development

Of course, the HoYD is a very important cog in the system. Robinson isn't great, but no one else was available. He at least got 11s across the board and a Fairly Professional personality, which is really good.

 

Scouts

A quick look at scouts. I only had Simon Clough, brother of former manager Nigel Clough. An average at best scout who had one year left on his contract and I felt like I could afford let him join his brother. There is a large wealth of decent scouts available, more than any other staff role (or so I found). I'm currently targeting these two:

Both are former Liverpool and Manchester United employees. One of them got knowledge of other countries and the other got a great personality. Both will be on cheap wages and they have good attributes.

 

Coaches

Including myself, I got a good enough coaching to start with:

I got room for one more, probably a fitness coach.

[herne79]

I like how people have found inspiration for a new save - PSG and Burton Albion.  It can really help get you invested into a team .

I think perhaps I'm at fault however and maybe wasn't clear enough.  This is a Tactical challenge and the inspiration I'm looking for people to find is for tactical inspiration.  Tell us what that is and then develop tactical systems from there with whatever team you choose.

Still fun reading about Burton though .

[craiigman]

Giving this one a go, though takes me a while to get through a season. I made a post before about using my FIFA style on FM: 

And this is going to have a similar process, but for how I like to play FIFA offline. I am however also taking inspiration from Ozil's thread:

So here goes..

 

The System:

- Shape: 442 diamond / 433 F9 hybrid

- Low block, press keeper

- Stay on feet, no diving in

- More direct passing into front 3, but options to play quick, short passes when needed

- Passing options to recycle possession, supporting play

That currently leaves me with:

 

The roles:

SK(D) - basically just GK(D) but added chance of maybe a quick counter.

FB(S) - My full backs aren't required to do much other than support play. 

CD(D) - Defenders just need to defend and do their job

RGA(S) - Not a possession tactic, but I do want the ball to be a magnet to the middle for ball retention and release the forwards when possible. One I'm still not 100% sure on having read @westy8chimp's thread. So may change.

CAR(S) - I was unsure if I wanted BWM, BBM, or RPM's. Gone with these as it is a 442 Diamond hybrid. Main purpose is to support play and cut passing lanes. May change though, but hoping PPM's can shape this role a little more.

RMD(A) - Striker/Winger hybrid. On FIFA I set them to stay forward, get in behind, cut inside. This role seems to suit best what I am aiming for.

SS(A) - Heard it called a False 10 on here, which is kind of what I think I am aiming at. 

 

I'm unsure if this is going to work. Played 1 friendly with it, was vs very poor side, but it played out how I wanted. I'll do an update post with players for the roles and how I'm going to try and develop the youth players at Benfica into this system.

[zlatanera]

13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I like how people have found inspiration for a new save - PSG and Burton Albion.  It can really help get you invested into a team .

I think perhaps I'm at fault however and maybe wasn't clear enough.  This is a Tactical challenge and the inspiration I'm looking for people to find is for tactical inspiration.  Tell us what that is and then develop tactical systems from there with whatever team you choose.

Still fun reading about Burton though .

Yeah definitely misunderstood that! Mine went terribly, I tried to stick to my guns figuring star signing Paul Pogba would come good eventually, but we just weren't finishing chances and kept conceding. 3rd firing on FM18 after my previous in challenge #1 with Fiorentina and my disastrous attempt to make my Lyon side into a possession team. 

Seconded for Burton though - one of those teams I don't have the patience to try but really mean to at some point so will always suggest them as an option.

[westy8chimp]

15 minutes ago, craiigman said:

 

I'm unsure if this is going to work. Played 1 friendly with it, was vs very poor side, but it played out how I wanted. I'll do an update post with players for the roles and how I'm going to try and develop the youth players at Benfica into this system

What team are.... System looks fairly sound to me, but will require a good reg and front 3. 

Ive found carillero a bit "meh"... 

[TheJanitor]

33 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I like how people have found inspiration for a new save - PSG and Burton Albion.  It can really help get you invested into a team .

I think perhaps I'm at fault however and maybe wasn't clear enough.  This is a Tactical challenge and the inspiration I'm looking for people to find is for tactical inspiration.  Tell us what that is and then develop tactical systems from there with whatever team you choose.

Still fun reading about Burton though .

Ahh apologies for taking your thread in the wrong direction. Feel free to move those posts into a separated one.

[craiigman]

13 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

What team are.... System looks fairly sound to me, but will require a good reg and front 3. 

Ive found carillero a bit "meh"... 

I’ve got Jonas for SS, and the wingers at Benfica have a lot of the attributes I’d be looking for in the RMD role. Need to make sure my development of the youngsters meets my tactical direction.

No Regista at the club currently though. Signed Pirlo on a free so will look at the youth players to see if any can fit the mould and be tutored by him.

On the Carillero’s. Thinking to keep 1, and change the other to CM(S) as I have Pizzi who I want to utilise a bit more. Then have a IWB(S) on that side.

I did however notice something cool with the Carrillero in the friendly. When my Regista closed someone down, the Carrillero on that side of the pitch would move into the middle and cover the space left. But yeah feel like I need a midfield late runner to just help support the front 3.

[craiigman]

On 01/08/2018 at 21:01, craiigman said:

Giving this one a go, though takes me a while to get through a season. I made a post before about using my FIFA style on FM: 

And this is going to have a similar process, but for how I like to play FIFA offline. I am however also taking inspiration from Ozil's thread:

So here goes..

 

The System:

- Shape: 442 diamond / 433 F9 hybrid

- Low block, press keeper

- Stay on feet, no diving in

- More direct passing into front 3, but options to play quick, short passes when needed

- Passing options to recycle possession, supporting play

That currently leaves me with:

 

The roles:

SK(D) - basically just GK(D) but added chance of maybe a quick counter.

FB(S) - My full backs aren't required to do much other than support play. 

CD(D) - Defenders just need to defend and do their job

RGA(S) - Not a possession tactic, but I do want the ball to be a magnet to the middle for ball retention and release the forwards when possible. One I'm still not 100% sure on having read @westy8chimp's thread. So may change.

CAR(S) - I was unsure if I wanted BWM, BBM, or RPM's. Gone with these as it is a 442 Diamond hybrid. Main purpose is to support play and cut passing lanes. May change though, but hoping PPM's can shape this role a little more.

RMD(A) - Striker/Winger hybrid. On FIFA I set them to stay forward, get in behind, cut inside. This role seems to suit best what I am aiming for.

SS(A) - Heard it called a False 10 on here, which is kind of what I think I am aiming at. 

 

I'm unsure if this is going to work. Played 1 friendly with it, was vs very poor side, but it played out how I wanted. I'll do an update post with players for the roles and how I'm going to try and develop the youth players at Benfica into this system.

Few friendly results

First game looked like I'd come up with some sort of master tactic, the next 3 games brought me back down to earth.

Essentially: Low block means we are very deep, so when we do ping balls into the RMD's, they end up dribbling their way to the byline and no one is in the box. Another thing noticed when a ball gets pinged into a RMD. The other RMD and SS don't react until the one with the ball is basically at the byline. In fact on one attack I saw the other RMD started going back to towards my goal.

So we're taking lots of long shots, and having lots and lots of crosses that go into a box with no one in there go get near them. Highest pass completion was just 83% in the last 3 games.

Lot's of things to work on @westy8chimp any suggestions on come changes? I'm thinking DLP(D) and CM(S) (removing RGA and CAR), maybe add a CM(A) to try and add an extra runner forward. Other option is to change the SS to something else.

[westy8chimp]

2 hours ago, craiigman said:

Lot's of things to work on @westy8chimp any suggestions on come changes? I'm thinking DLP(D) and CM(S) (removing RGA and CAR), maybe add a CM(A) to try and add an extra runner forward. Other option is to change the SS to something else.

Looking at the setup im quite surprised in what you are seeing. The SS in particular should always be making forward runs when you are on the ball. And as i mentioned in my strikerless season the RMD was very effective. 

You could try removing 'more direct passing', let the front three link up a bit more. Defo replace one or both Car with CM-s or BBM... Id use support roles tho, dont think u need another runner.

See how you get on after a few more games... You could use pi to advise the rmd to cross less

[craiigman]

On 04/08/2018 at 09:54, westy8chimp said:

Looking at the setup im quite surprised in what you are seeing. The SS in particular should always be making forward runs when you are on the ball. And as i mentioned in my strikerless season the RMD was very effective. 

You could try removing 'more direct passing', let the front three link up a bit more. Defo replace one or both Car with CM-s or BBM... Id use support roles tho, dont think u need another runner.

See how you get on after a few more games... You could use pi to advise the rmd to cross less

Apparently I missed your strikerless thread.. I see you used a Mez, would you not suggest that for this due to me having 2 RMD’s?

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, craiigman said:

Apparently I missed your strikerless thread.. I see you used a Mez, would you not suggest that for this due to me having 2 RMD’s?

I used a mez on the side with a winger... So the winger was attacking outside left, mez attacked inside left... Ss attacked centre, rmd attacked inside right and an wing back attacked outside right. 

A mez in your formation might work creating an overload, or might hinder by congesting the area. 

A support option like simple cm-s will mostly allow the rmd space to work, but will offer a support outball

[craiigman]

4 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I used a mez on the side with a winger... So the winger was attacking outside left, mez attacked inside left... Ss attacked centre, rmd attacked inside right and an wing back attacked outside right. 

A mez in your formation might work creating an overload, or might hinder by congesting the area. 

A support option like simple cm-s will mostly allow the rmd space to work, but will offer a support outball

Gave it a go vs Vit. Guimaraes, it's actually really hard to watch. Starts off ok, passing around, but then it's like the RMD's are ball magnets because they just decide to try playing passes that clearly aren't on, with no pressure on them. I've turned direct passing off. The front 3 all have 6.3/6.4/6.5 ratings. When they do get the ball they are just running into closed corridors, not looking for the players behind them.

Less shots, less possession. Our goal came from an own goal. Shots from outside box. Crosses going to no one.

The football it's producing is awful. Think I'm giving up on it.

[okereke]

I've just finished reading The Mixer, and oh boy are there some references to get inspired. But for now, I'm sticking with Ancelotti's approach at Chelsea and this passage from the book, which references the match/formation depicted at the right.

 

Basically, I didn't remember watching this but liked how Cox wrote about the whole idea behind the forward trio deployed by Ancelotti. So what I got inspired by was the concept of playing one striker upfront (who in my mind would ideally be some Striker/AM hybrid) and two attack-minded players behind him also with the ability to be dangerous both on the build-up and in front of the net. This way, the system I'd try to create would be based around a trio of forwards and the challenge would be mostly how to recreate the movement highlighted by the arrows in the diagram, getting the side-players to cover from the midfield sidelines to inside the area and the leading striker to drop and link with the midfield and interchange position with the other two, thus making the team playing a hybrid 2-1/1-2 forward line while attacking.

First thought is to also use attacking full-backs/wing-backs to provide width and make the two AMs narrower and avoid them kissing the sideline, something I wouldn't really like and I'm not looking to get from this. Let's see how this goes!

[khodder]

I've finally managed to get my act together on the front, and figured heck it's taken me so long to narrow down exactly what I want to draw my inspiration from that I tight sod it. I'll take inspiration from all three.

My base will be a vague Arsenal 03-04 inspiration with the wide midfielders cutting inside two deeper set central midfielders screening the back four, fullbacks pushing high with one roaming sticker and one dropping into the space in the hole.

My 4-4-2 counter (Spare Man at the Back anyone) will be a compilation of 00-01 Roma and 02 Brazil. Who both played a back three with two holding midfielders, wingbacks marauding up and down the flanks and an attacking trio to do all of the damage.

My third is going to be a chasing the game tactic if I'm desperately in need of a goal and its roughly derived from the 4-2-4 of Kevin Keegan the year Newcastle bottled the league. 

Will update with further details when a) Not on a phone and b) if I manage to get anything to work.

[okereke]

First update regarding my inspiration around Ancelotti's forward-trio.

I chose Celtic as my team and turned it into an all-Scottish side, although that is not really important here; only saying it to provide some context. Also, I play FM Touch so the team doesn't need to learn new tactics, changes to the formation, etc to make the system work from the get go, as would happen with the "full" version of the game.

After playing to the end of September we have disputed a total of 20 games. Not gonna go through the first ones, basically the three friendlies, but those were more than enough to get the final system set up after watching the games in full match mode to see how the team was working and what changes needed to be made. I started with a 2AM/F9 approach through the center of the pitch, thus making it look like an actual Xmax tree formation, but soon realized that that wasn't going to cut it as the AMs were not going to the sides of the pitch and widening the shape as much as I'd like too, plus they weren't actually interchanging positions with the striker.

So, the changes I made had to do with moving the two AMs to the wings. The problem was to find the correct role and the horizontal distance between them playing on the touchline and the lone forward. After some trials and failures and much tinkering, I got to the final shape and system, which is displayed next:

As you can see, the concepts from the original post all seem to be there and the tactic is pretty much a replication of what Carlo did back in the day (which again, I don't really know to great extent and I'm much imagining and building an image of in my mind more than just copying or trying to actually emulate what happened with Chelsea in real life––that was never the point of this. I settled for a strikerless formation with a SS and two Trequartistas, the three of them with attack duties. The addition of two attacking WBs combined with the TI of overlapping makes for the two wings being occupied by the WBs on attack, making the Trequartistas go into narrower and inside positions, getting closer to the SS.

The fact of deploying two CMs on automatic duties and avoiding any kind of "special" or "fancy" role, such as a playmaker, makes the team play as a unit without focusing on one sole creator and builder. Just win the ball, and play it forward via whoever is available. That also makes the SS link with the two CMs by dropping a little to receive passes and then open to the sides (either to the Trequartistas or the WBs overlapping). Once in possession or looking to receive a pass/cross, the Trequartistas and the SS always look forward and clog the opposition's area quite nicely. It doesn't perfectly replicate the kind of movement I had in mind first, but it is close enough imo. Anyways I'll try to keep moving towards what I had imagined before starting.

As far as the TIs, I'm keeping them fairly basic. Just overlap to make the Trequartistas go inside and have the WBs as the main attacking thread allowing to opening the field and crossing to our forward-trio. Play narrow with the same thought in mind (Ts getting inside, WBs overlapping to counter the "narrowing" effect, CMs playing close to each other and having the WBs as lateral options). And close down more just to try and gain the ball as quickly as possible taking advantage of the strikerless shape to build quick attacks and score on the counter. The only PIs I have set have to do with the Trequartistas and are quite obvious: Sit narrower and Cut inside with the ball (again, same reasoning as I've already explained).

Just as a last comment regarding the results, you can see they're quite encouraging. We lost two games while qualifying for the UCL (the one against Qarabag was given away really, as I fielded a rather bad team and used the instant result option). Anyways, I had been thinking that the team was smashing minnows but would suffer against actual good teams. Effectively, we dropped two points against a some sort of "strong" Ross County side (3rd in the league) that played compacted and defensively, although we dominated the game. The Old Firm was the real test and we were basically completely broken. I opted not to change the system but it proved quite offensive and not that intelligent in terms of defending given the whole offensive mentality of everybody. We improved as the minutes passed but still couldn't amount for the comeback. What has actually making me think that was a just flaw is the fact that we played tremendously well against Real Madrid in the last UCL clash. They almost created no clear chances (Ronaldo scored on a counter after Bale recovered a bad pass from one of our CDs, so I'm not too concerned about it) while we crushed them on multiple counters (which is basically how the team functions every game) and we just missed the net.

Will provide more updates and hopefully get some match images to highlight how the system works.

Edit: Of course I look forward to discuss/expand on anything you want to ask about. That's the point of this after all I think

[craiigman]

I have continued with the system, still tweaking parts of it from game to game.

Still have issues with the SS getting involved though. He’s got some goals, but couple been penalties, and couple outside box.

I’m 5 wins in the league and played Porto home and Sporting away so results are there. I did however lose 1-0 to Monaco away in the UCL.

The more I watch the games the more it is playing how I would have thought, other than the SS. It doesn’t create as many chances as I’d like.

Going to try and power through the rest of the season and make as few changes to setup as possible and just deal with the squad management/ player development.

It is quite boring football though, other than the goals, most of them have been top quality. Salvio is a monster.

[okereke]

Quick follow-up with a few annotated images.

Here we can see the team's shape prior to the rival's GK putting the ball in play. For this match I was using an Attacking mentality with a Fluid team shape. Simply put and after much trial-and-error and reading, we can say that mentality is meant to represent "how high" the team plays, so here I was telling my players to go almost as high as possible (Attacking). In the case of team shape, it can be explained as how tight the team plays its lines (defense-midfield-forwards). Again, I went for the second-highest option here with Fluid, so I expect my players to be close to each other. Paired, Attacking and Fluid would ideally make for a team with the lines pushed higher up the pitch and as close as possible, so defenders would go up (more than usual) and forwards would still try and keep close to the bunch while on defense.

As far as what I was trying to do with my "inspiration", these two images show how the team is built for attacking phases. While focusing on the forward-trio (2Ts+1SS), I still had to build a full formation and opted to go all-in. The CB pair must be really good and fast backtracking because the tactic is quite offense-minded, and that is a real danger and the glaring warning to anyone attempting to recreate this due to the WBs going truly up the pitch.

To solidify the defense a little I play a BWM on the DM strata, along two CMs on Automatic to have them collaborating both on defensive and offensive duties. The idea of having two players covering the wings and playing as a deep-lying forwards plays well to a certain extent by fielding two wing-based Trequartistas along a Shadow Striker meant to drop and link with the midfielders. It is not perfect, or at least not what a 2-1-to-1-2 may play in your (my) mind, but I like the outcome as both Ts tend to get in forward positions quite nicely while the SS drops enough to link play and it is not hard to see him arrive at the area after both Ts are already there coming from the sides, making room for the WBs.

Just in case anyone cares, this is by no means a magic tactic and while it works nicely and it is neither a bad system at least I see it, it gives you good and bad results mostly due to the need of two great CBs which I don't have (not at least to the point in which they're needed against some fast-paced teams throwing long balls and looking for passes to the hole or over the defense). Also, I have conceded some corner goals due to ****** aerial performances by my team. Gets to my nerves. Plus the Hibernian and Hearts loses were "quick-resulted" so I don't put so much weight on them as the formation seems to not work when simming matches instead of playing/watching/managing them for some reason.

I'm really pleased with how I was able to develop the system over the matches. Quite nice challenge for everyone to try, honestly. Must admit tho that I love this kind of short saves in which I focus on doing something tactically and nothing else. 

[okereke]

Just filmed a quick video showing how the Shadow Striker (#14) drops to link with the midfield in the build-up, while both Trequartistas (#49 and #13) go from the wings to inside positions turning the original 1-2 into a 2-1.

 

[BasedDarrenMoore]

My tactic I hope to be replicating is Lobanovskyi's 442!

Lobanovskyi, was one of the most innovative coaches of all time. The first thing he did when he joined Dynamo Kyiv was order a computer, unheard of at the time.' From 'Inverting the Pyramid' by Johnathan Wilson

Inverting the Pyramid – ‘Everything was meticulously planned, with the team’s preparation divided into three levels. Players were to have individual technical coaching so as to equip them better to fulfil the tasks Lobanovskyi set them during a game; specific tactics and tasks for each player were drawn up according to the opponents; and a strategy was devised for a competition as a whole, placing each game in context by acknowledging that it is impossible for a side to maintain maximal levels over a protracted period. On the wall at Dynamo’s training-base were hung lists of the demands Lobanovskyi placed on players. Significantly, of the fourteen defensive tasks, four concerned the distribution of the ball and the establishment of attacking positions once the ball had been won. There was no notion of simply getting the ball clear, for that would have been to surrender possession and thus place their side back on the defensive. The thirteen demands on forwards, as well as including a line about pressing and attempting to regain possession high up the field, are also dominated by calls for movement and the search for ways to shift the ball away from areas in which the opponent has a high concentration of players.’

 

My next post will be my closest apporiximation of it, which will mostly be based on this chart from spielverlagerung, here's a link if anyone wants to read the article themselves !

 

https://spielverlagerung.com/2016/04/01/team-analysis-valeriy-lobanovskyis-ussr/

 

[okereke]

So we reached the first knockout round of the UCL by finishing second behind Real Madrid. We kinda dropped the second game against the Spanish side with the qualification already guaranteed and the need of cutting distance with Rangers, and drew Chelsea on the first round, against who I've just played the first leg.

Here is the scouting report prior to the game. Without going into further detail, I quickly realized some things just from the next screen.

1. Presence of Inside Forwards, which I expect to go inside easing our defensive duties (remember that we basically cover with just 2CD-1DM, so we're covered in the middle but are vulnerable on the sides if the WBs don't get back in time)
2. Presence of a CWB and a "classic" WB, from which I understand they'll try and exploit the left flank more than the right one, even more having Hazard (best player) on that side too. So, I added a TI to exploit their left side and it worked wonders. (Another quick note: Hazard was doubtful given that he was coming off an injury but ultimately made the starting XI, although on a low fitness status, which was even greater for us)
3. Presence of a BPD, which I understood was going to be their first player building the play from the back. This has one clear response in my mind: cover him and force the other two CDs to put the ball in play with their lower ability to do so, therefore making the other side less dangerous and forcing more mistakes.
4. Counter + Structured. Their team will be a little deeper in the pitch, with lines stretched over the field and not overly packed back. Not bad given that we press high-up the field so that would in principle benefit our approach. We'll go Standard+Structured though, as we're clearly inferior on paper and I don't want to take too many risks facing the offensive qualities of Chelsea's players.

The game played out as expected, so I was glad my breakdown turned out to be perfectly on point and I felt in total control of the game from start to finish, knowing beforehand what to do in case something happened that altered those original ideas. Here is the annotated sequence of the 2-0, which perfectly highlights how we exploited Chelsea's defense by using our 2-1-to-1-2 approach with the Trequartistas and SS, plus the heavy contributions of the WBs and midfield players (again, remember we keep a triangle of 2CDs and a BWM always covering under the midfield line, thus defending the center of the pitch in case we lost the ball).

That already commented, here are a few videos showing both that goal in action, the 1-0 and another clear chance we had showing the same principles.

Finally, this was the tally, with Chelsea's chances basically coming from corners and set pieces (actually I don't think even watching the Comprehensive Highlights they had more than one or two plays finished in a shot on goal, to be honest, so it was quite a nice played out game in which, again, I felt we had total control and domination).

I hope everything is clear and understandable, and of course I'll gladly answer any question and discuss any comment you have about this whole thing ^^

PS: I've been thinking about creating a topic to discuss this stuff and not clog a more broad topic like this one is, something like @westy8chimp is doing with Leverkusen, but I don't know if people would be interested at all in me taking on different "inspirations" and trying to play and comment them in FM terms. Let me know about it!  

[westy8chimp]

Playing some lovely football there and your screen shots are far neater than mine (and you can upload vids) so i think you could write some nice threads. 

If you enjoy it, go for it.... If there's a theme that is either tutorial or exploratory etc put it in tactics thread... Otherwise there is the career updates forum. I found writing about my save helped me revive and maintain interest in FM... Id found my love for the game waning the last few years as my brother and i no longer have time to play vs each other online (family obligations). 

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

i think you could write some nice threads. 

I second that @okereke we definitely need to see a lot more of you.

[okereke]

hace 1 hora, westy8chimp dijo:

Playing some lovely football there and your screen shots are far neater than mine (and you can upload vids) so i think you could write some nice threads. 

If you enjoy it, go for it.... If there's a theme that is either tutorial or exploratory etc put it in tactics thread... Otherwise there is the career updates forum. I found writing about my save helped me revive and maintain interest in FM... Id found my love for the game waning the last few years as my brother and i no longer have time to play vs each other online (family obligations). 

Yeah, I would probably do something similar to what you're reading here, kinda "inspired" tactics and approaches to different styles and ways of playing rather than normal stories/career evolutions. I don't have time to get invested in long saves so I prefer to do those little "challenges" on the laptop Touch version of the game, basically focusing on tactics and transfers (this last thing only if needed). Not saying I may wouldn't do something like an Ajax topic based on youth development and the classical dutch system, for example, but I'd definitely focus more on system development and tactics than other stuff to be honest.

hace 15 minutos, Robson 07 dijo:

I second that @okereke we definitely need to see a lot more of you.

I'd take that as a compliment, thanks!

[SmileFaceGamer]

Aha, this might be a good place to find (and implement) inspiration for my Plymouth side.

The problem and possible solution

What started out as an attempt to build a balanced 4411 (S3, League 1) quickley ended as I ended up buying two extreamly talented AM’s and loaning one as well as having two okay ones at the club. That and the fact that the 4411 didn’t work (I don’t need long to figure that... still in pre season) has lead me down the road of a quick passing, pressing game. As my two AM’s can also be strikers I’ve decided what my canvas for the art will be... a 4312. Having a quick gander at my team report and comparison showed me that we have good first touch, heading, passing and technique. Our decisions are below average though which is an issue, but my midfields desicions are good desiscion makers.

The tactic:

———————GK-D——————

——FB-S—CD-C——CD-X—FB-S—

———CM-S—-DLP-D—-CM-S——

———————AM-S——————

—————AF-A——AF-A————

Mentality: Standard

Team Shape: Flexible

TI’s: Whipped Crosses, Exploit the Middle, Look for Overlap, Much Higher D-Line, Prevent Short GK Distribution

 

earky season update will come with tactical performance 

[zlatanera]

@SmileFaceGamer Two pieces of advice -

1. Why not try Carrileros instead of CM-Su to flank your DLP? They're effectively custom made for a formation like this. But people have survived without them before they were introduced so you do you.

2. I'm not sure that shape is really good for Prevents Short GK Distribution. You have two strikers who will pressure the opposition CBs, yes, but then your midfielders would have to come way out of position to press the full backs and you'd be really open. Might be worth watching for.

[moolochicken]

Inspiration is actually my only way of playing FM, not in the sense of replication, but actually setting up a team base on specific central ideas. I have more than 20 saves of inspiration, but under this challenge I want to share my most recent attempt that is the hardest attempt I have ever made in FM 2018.

There are two inspiration that I have taken are:

1. Use Libero (partly inspired by the discussions around). 

2. Play no midfield. This actually felt like an anti-inspiration, where I am trying to discover whether midfield is really as necessary as general perception.

I started with no MC, but gradually the two inspiration combined into no MC and no DMC since Libero allowed that to happen.

Defense

Anyone can instantly see a problem base on the two targets: how to defend without any MC and DMC?

This is all I have for defense, since if I don't play midfield, all other players will be further forward. There are some variations  that I have considered but rejected:

-3 center backs.

I felt that there is a huge overlap on responsibility between the middle centre back and the libero. I have given this up for a start. 

- Wing backs. 

This could work defensively, but doesn't fit my attacking set up.

This are the TIs for defense, and this is actually the key to maintaing a 5 man defense: offside trap Libero, which doesn't sounds right if you look at it by common sense. But here is my approach:

1.When the team lose the ball upfield, the defense phase starts. The Libero pushed very high up the field, the defense line is actually 4 players. Long balls will trigger offside trap based on 4 defend duties with goo enough defenders.

2a. If long balls did not happen, the team gradually retreats. At this stage, the Libero will fall in line (not behind) with the defensive line. Any attack through the middle will be pressed and by the Libero base on More Closing Down and PI Mark Tighter on Libero. 

2b. If the opponent attacks the flanks, the full backs will press instead. The Libero will retreat behind the centre backs. Flanks attack cannot directly transfer to goal unless it comes back to the middle.

3. After either 2a or 2b,  the Libero is already positioned behind the centre backs. After this stage offside trap is no longer in place, but the gap between the defensive line and the goal keeper is already very small. A rigid 5 man defense is in place.

Here is how it happens in the ME:

1. Team loses the ball, defensive phase starts. Libero starts running back.

 

2. Libero is in-line with defensive line to prevent long ball. Bernardo Silva receives the ball and starts running through the middle.

 

3. Bernardo Silva makes a 30 yard dribble through the middle. Libero starts pressing.

 

4. Libero makes a tackle and stops the attacks. 

 

 

This is a typical defense of how this system works. Even if Bernardo decides to pass, the objective of delaying the attack until defenders are in place is achieved.

 

Attack

This is a the attacking set-up. Obviously without any midfield players, my transitions will be mid-long range passes. The real question is where should these passes land?

I originally started with 2 Wide Target Man, but I discovered a better solution: wide Trequartista. They will actively seek for empty space on the flanks to receive the ball and then make a pass or cross, exactly what I needed. 

Surprisingly, the attacking midfielder is not the key of the back-to-front transition. The reason for him being in place is to make recycling passes and general link up plays. Generally speaking recycling passes happen closer to the half-way line. Since all my attacking forwards are very far ahead, this recycling spot have to be further up ahead. 

The two strikers are picked with both speed and strength to give them the best chance in receiving the cross. Even with strong strikers, whipped crosses still provided more goals than floated crosses in my testing.  Additionally, both strikers can still make reasonably good passes to unlock the other striker and both Trequartistas.

There are lots ways of attcking in this st-up, but this is one of the typical attacks:

1. Libero starts an attack

 

2. Right Trequartista receives the ball in an empty space.

 

3. Proceeds to make a cross before reaching the back line

 

4. Fast and Strong Striker on the receiving end to head the ball in.

 

Final Formation

Attacking Structured 5-0-5 (In game recognized as 5-3-2 Sweeper Wide)

 

Club and Result

Watford is picked based on the large number of fast and strong stirker and winger choices. 

 

Major Strikers and Wingers Performance

 

Club Result: 1st, expected finish 11th

 

1st in both Crosses completed and Crosses Completion Ratio

 

20th in Passes Completed

 

1st in Headers Won

 

1st in Chances Created, as expected

 

19th in Foul Against and 18th in average possesion. This is the interesting one, probably means that both I don't need possession and my attacks can't be stopped by fouls.

 

Conclusion

I do not think that this proves midfield is unnecessary. My personal conclusion is this proves that we do not need to occupy midfield in all phases of a game. This is the hardest challenge that I have given myself and I am completely burnt out at the moment by the huge amount of work that had been done. Probably would not be playing again until FM 19 ^^.

[Robson 07]

Can I be the first one to say that tactic is off its nut.  Full respect to have something like that work @moolochicken but where do you start?

[moolochicken]

On 04/09/2018 at 20:54, Robson 07 said:

Can I be the first one to say that tactic is off its nut.  Full respect to have something like that work @moolochicken but where do you start?

I am glad that someone would be interested in where these things come from 

The two inspiration are pretty self-explanatory. If I put the two inspiration into formation , the 5-0-5 shape is the only one I would use as explained  in the passage. So what are left to be deiced are roles, duties, mentality, team shape, TIs and PIs. The heavy workload came from these as I did a lot of fine-tuning with roles, duties, TIs and Pis. 

But before these details, or even before the two inspiration, is the one question that every manager needs to ask themselves: what is the ultimate football? If football keeps on evolving, where would it end? Every manager could have a different type of football that they believe is the strongest, but my belief is not one specific tactic.

My firm answer to that question is: Push my tactic's strength to the limit while being acceptable in other areas, whatever tactic I might use on that match day. 

Football is a sport that does not reward slight advantages. Comparing to others with more frequent record of domination (such as the point system in basketball or badminton etc), the stronger team can get nothing for being the better side. A slight edge over the opponent is dependent on who is lady luck smiling to on that day. If I maximize the difference in the gap between my team and the opponent, I have the highest chance of getting my domination recorded as points (goal differnce) and thus highest chance of victory.

If I play with balance, balance will play me.

All tactical settings will serve that purpose, and to put that in tactical terms, the clear strength of this 5-0-5 is that the offense is unstoppable, where the opponent is overloaded in the final 3rd while being unable to effectively press or stop the transition of 2-block-formation. So the tactical settings are trying to maximize the attacking effectiveness and then get the defense good enough with just 5 men.