The Firmino

[Curtinho]

Hey everyone!

So Roberto Firmino is probably my favourite player in football right now. I don't think he gets the plaudits he deserves because work off the ball, and against it, is not nearly as 'sexy' as magic on the ball (where he's no slouch either) but for me he's the most valuable and best player in the premier league. The work he puts in, the space he creates, and his general footballing intelligence largely facilitates Liverpool's goal generation and also their ability to defend from the front (although it's not totally out of the ordinary to see him track back all the way to his own box).

“He’s probably the most underestimated player in world football. He is unbelievable.” - Jurgen Klopp

Ultimately I would like to isolate his position and analyze it, but also create a tactic that can make use of it to it's fullest.

So...what does this mean exactly? Well I could probably write an essay on Firmino's contributions on the pitch and the way that he affects the game. It's easy to label him a 'false 9' because of the way that he drops into midfield to aid in build up, but I feel like that's lazy because he seems to roam all over the place wherever he is needed, and spearheads the attack if not. Sometimes he does both (first dropping deep to link up, create a clever flick or pass and then makes an immediate run to join in on the rush and eventually end up ahead of everyone). He dribbles, he's certainly a pass first player (extremely creative) and his off the ball movement is astonishing in the way that it completely drags defenses out of position and causes confusion. On top of that his workrate off the ball is unmatched. As for his work against the ball...well, I can't even count the number of goals he's facilitated just by winning the ball high up the pitch or causing a turnover in which a quick transition ends with the ball in the opposition's net (something he doesn't get nearly enough credit for).

This is a decent analysis (though I don't feel it fully encompasses his off the ball work): http://anfieldindex.com/25487/tactical-analysis-roberto-firmino-liverpools-master-space.html

My problem is that I think Firmino is essentially a box to box striker. He's a false 9 with the defensive instincts and workrate of a defensive forward. I don't know that it's possible to emulate this. A DLF (S) with Move into Channels, Roam from Position, Close Down More, Dribble More, Shoot Less and Tackle Harder? It sounds like a lot of instructions but...

What do you guys think?

[denen123]

A shadow striker with "roam from position".

[Egecann]

Just False 9. You can't emulate player's work rate. Defensive forward with 1 work rate won't press at all. Giving an instruction doesn't mean he will do that. So Firmino has everything he needs. Work rate, off the ball, etc.. False 9 would be enough imo. You need to focus on the players around him

[Jean0987654321]

36 minutes ago, Curtinho said:

Hey everyone!

So Roberto Firmino is probably my favourite player in football right now. I don't think he gets the plaudits he deserves because work off the ball, and against it, is not nearly as 'sexy' as magic on the ball (where he's no slouch either) but for me he's the most valuable and best player in the premier league. The work he puts in, the space he creates, and his general footballing intelligence largely facilitates Liverpool's goal generation and also their ability to defend from the front (although it's not totally out of the ordinary to see him track back all the way to his own box).

“He’s probably the most underestimated player in world football. He is unbelievable.” - Jurgen Klopp

Ultimately I would like to isolate his position and analyze it, but also create a tactic that can make use of it to it's fullest.

So...what does this mean exactly? Well I could probably write an essay on Firmino's contributions on the pitch and the way that he affects the game. It's easy to label him a 'false 9' because of the way that he drops into midfield to aid in build up, but I feel like that's lazy because he seems to roam all over the place wherever he is needed, and spearheads the attack if not. Sometimes he does both (first dropping deep to link up, create a clever flick or pass and then makes an immediate run to join in on the rush and eventually end up ahead of everyone). He dribbles, he's certainly a pass first player (extremely creative) and his off the ball movement is astonishing in the way that it completely drags defenses out of position and causes confusion. On top of that his workrate off the ball is unmatched. As for his work against the ball...well, I can't even count the number of goals he's facilitated just by winning the ball high up the pitch or causing a turnover in which a quick transition ends with the ball in the opposition's net (something he doesn't get nearly enough credit for).

This is a decent analysis (though I don't feel it fully encompasses his off the ball work): http://anfieldindex.com/25487/tactical-analysis-roberto-firmino-liverpools-master-space.html

My problem is that I think Firmino is essentially a box to box striker. He's a false 9 with the defensive instincts and workrate of a defensive forward. I don't know that it's possible to emulate this. A DLF (S) with Move into Channels, Roam from Position, Close Down More, Dribble More, Shoot Less and Tackle Harder? It sounds like a lot of instructions but...

What do you guys think?

I'd say a DF (s) and with his PPMs (Drop Deep to Get Ball, Runs with Ball Often, Tries Killer Balls Often) that should work...

[ajsr1982]

22 hours ago, Curtinho said:

I feel like that's lazy because he seems to roam all over the place wherever he is needed, and spearheads the attack if not. Sometimes he does both (first dropping deep to link up, create a clever flick or pass and then makes an immediate run to join in on the rush and eventually end up ahead of everyone). He dribbles, he's certainly a pass first player (extremely creative) and his off the ball movement is astonishing in the way that it completely drags defenses out of position and causes confusion. On top of that his workrate off the ball is unmatched. As for his work against the ball...well, I can't even count the number of goals he's facilitated just by winning the ball high up the pitch or causing a turnover in which a quick transition ends with the ball in the opposition's net (something he doesn't get nearly enough credit for).

What do you guys think?

I think what you're saying is that he does a bit of everything, and FM has a role for that: Complete Forward.

Nice thread by the way - I'm a big Firmino fan.

[Curtinho]

So I'm still  working on this, but the City game has inspired me to keep working at it. Obviously, FM is not real life and you can't just take one player and expect them to work a certain way in any system and have success. So a large part of getting your striker to play like Firmino does in real life is going to be building a system around him that also encourages this type of play.

If you look at how Liverpool are set up at the moment with Mane on the left, Salah on the right and Firmino between them you get this kind of set up:

Firmino: CF (S)

Mane: IF (S) ---------------------------------------- Salah: RMD (A)

What we do know is that Firmino pops up all the way as low as the DM strata and literally roams all over the field, popping up where needed to press, but also generally ends up attacking through the middle. Salah is involved less in the build up and typically stays up higher on the pitch, often cutting inside and popping up in the box -- this lends me to believe that he would be a Raumdeuter more-so than an Inside Forward, but either way he definitely plays with an attacking mentality. Mane seems a little harder to pin down; if you look at his heat maps and positioning you can see that he typically drops deeper and is more involved in the defensive phase as well as the build up, but he definitely isn't a traditional winger as most of his contributions in the final 3rd see him drift into the middle of the field from the left never really going to the byline. I can't really decide if he should be in the midfield line with an attacking mentality or in the attacking midfield line with a support mentality (I'm tempted to say IF (S) that is instructed to stay wider, and get further forward). For now I think the above set up makes the most sense.

Right now my concern in this situation is that being in the striker position and having a CF (regardless of the support option) is going to see Firmino stay too high on more roam around that area as opposed to actually dropping deep into midfield like he often does for Liverpool. To give a little idea of where I'm going with this I believe a lower mentality (Standard probably) combined with a structured shape that allows the players to roam fits the bill. I don't think I will set the entire team to press high because I feel like most of the coordinated press comes from the forwards, two more advanced midfielders and the fullbacks. I'll have to sit down and look at the midfield next as I am pretty sure the defensive line and keeper will make themselves afterward (trying to decide if it's a CM (A) in front of a VOL (S) and DM (S) or a BBM (S) + MEZ (S/A) in front of a DM (S)).

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Curtinho said:

So I'm still  working on this, but the City game has inspired me to keep working at it. Obviously, FM is not real life and you can't just take one player and expect them to work a certain way in any system and have success. So a large part of getting your striker to play like Firmino does in real life is going to be building a system around him that also encourages this type of play.

If you look at how Liverpool are set up at the moment with Mane on the left, Salah on the right and Firmino between them you get this kind of set up:

Firmino: CF (S)

Mane: IF (S) ---------------------------------------- Salah: RMD (A)

What we do know is that Firmino pops up all the way as low as the DM strata and literally roams all over the field, popping up where needed to press, but also generally ends up attacking through the middle. Salah is involved less in the build up and typically stays up higher on the pitch, often cutting inside and popping up in the box -- this lends me to believe that he would be a Raumdeuter more-so than an Inside Forward, but either way he definitely plays with an attacking mentality. Mane seems a little harder to pin down; if you look at his heat maps and positioning you can see that he typically drops deeper and is more involved in the defensive phase as well as the build up, but he definitely isn't a traditional winger as most of his contributions in the final 3rd see him drift into the middle of the field from the left never really going to the byline. I can't really decide if he should be in the midfield line with an attacking mentality or in the attacking midfield line with a support mentality (I'm tempted to say IF (S) that is instructed to stay wider, and get further forward). For now I think the above set up makes the most sense.

Right now my concern in this situation is that being in the striker position and having a CF (regardless of the support option) is going to see Firmino stay too high on more roam around that area as opposed to actually dropping deep into midfield like he often does for Liverpool. To give a little idea of where I'm going with this I believe a lower mentality (Standard probably) combined with a structured shape that allows the players to roam fits the bill. I don't think I will set the entire team to press high because I feel like most of the coordinated press comes from the forwards, two more advanced midfielders and the fullbacks. I'll have to sit down and look at the midfield next as I am pretty sure the defensive line and keeper will make themselves afterward (trying to decide if it's a CM (A) in front of a VOL (S) and DM (S) or a BBM (S) + MEZ (S/A) in front of a DM (S)).

This is a good analysis, I think. My suggestion would be maybe trying to go strikerless, trying Bobby as a sort of Shadow Striker or just AM(a) attack. I think the RMD might be spot on. Also interesting with the VOL(S) and DM(S) behind a CM(a). I would be interested in hearing How that plays out.

[Curtinho]

I've been thinking about a few different ways to try and emulate what Klopp's team is doing on the pitch right now and while this isn't exactly a Klopp thread I've looked at it this way:

---------- F9 (S) - T (A)

IF (S)-------------------------------------

CAR (S) ---- MEZ (A)

or

IF (S) --- AM (S) --- RMD (A)

CAR (S) --- MEZ (A)

Anyway I'll get to doing some testing on these tonight and watching the patterns and post my findings.

[Curtinho]

So after some testing I've found a system and role that gets Firmino to act as I think that he does in real life (for the most part). I've also accidentally stumbled upon a really strong tactic in general (4 games, 4 wins, 5+ chances per game, 1 goal against, Burnley, Leicester, Juventus and United). I'll try and find some time tonight to get some screenshots and maybe a few little videos, but basically I set up like this:

Coutinho: IF (S) --- Firmino: AM (S) --- Salah: RMD (A)

Henderson: BBM (S) --- Wijnaldum: MEZ (A)

Can: DM (S)

Robertson: WB (S) --- van Dijk: CD (D) --- Lovren: CD (D) --- Alexander-Arnold: FB (S)

Karius: GK (D)

Control/Flexible: Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Play out of Defence, Pass into Space, Roam from Positions

AM (S): Get Further Forward, Shoot Less Often, More Risky Passes, Move into Channels

IF (S): Stay Wider, Get Further Forward

MEZ (A): Run Wide With Ball

The only issue I've got with the system so far is that the main goalscorers so far have been the IF (S) and the MEZ (A) instead of the RMD. The actual run of play seems very similar in distribution to the Liverpool/City game and I'll upload comparisons to it (right down to the number of passes, touches, area of involvement, etc.) Still, the part I liked most was that Firmino acted a lot like he does for Liverpool; he was dropping deep in midfield, he was roaming to both sides of the field, he was almost always involved in the attack, and he was popping up to score goals here and there.

[Gegenklaus]

8 hours ago, Curtinho said:

So after some testing I've found a system and role that gets Firmino to act as I think that he does in real life (for the most part). I've also accidentally stumbled upon a really strong tactic in general (4 games, 4 wins, 5+ chances per game, 1 goal against, Burnley, Leicester, Juventus and United). I'll try and find some time tonight to get some screenshots and maybe a few little videos, but basically I set up like this:

Coutinho: IF (S) --- Firmino: AM (S) --- Salah: RMD (A)

Henderson: BBM (S) --- Wijnaldum: MEZ (A)

Can: DM (S)

Robertson: WB (S) --- van Dijk: CD (D) --- Lovren: CD (D) --- Alexander-Arnold: FB (S)

Karius: GK (D)

Control/Flexible: Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Play out of Defence, Pass into Space, Roam from Positions

AM (S): Get Further Forward, Shoot Less Often, More Risky Passes, Move into Channels

IF (S): Stay Wider, Get Further Forward

MEZ (A): Run Wide With Ball

The only issue I've got with the system so far is that the main goalscorers so far have been the IF (S) and the MEZ (A) instead of the RMD. The actual run of play seems very similar in distribution to the Liverpool/City game and I'll upload comparisons to it (right down to the number of passes, touches, area of involvement, etc.) Still, the part I liked most was that Firmino acted a lot like he does for Liverpool; he was dropping deep in midfield, he was roaming to both sides of the field, he was almost always involved in the attack, and he was popping up to score goals here and there.

Really interesting. Does the RMD get on the end of some of the chances though? 

EDIT: I have done some testing using your tactic as a stepstone. I really loooooove how Firmino plays in your system. One recommendation: Try using Salah as a Winger(A). You will see him stretch space for Mez(A) who either under- or overlaps Salah. 

[anorthernboy]

Good luck with this. I tried and tried to get the fab4 working for LFC. I've unfortunately uninstalled the game my stress levels got that high.

[Brian]

Salah is the guy who out of the front 3 really doesn't track back allot. He really stays in front. Mane tracks back on the left side and occasionally - because Firminho presses everywhere - drifts in to the middle. Pure based on real life vs Football manager, he isn't a Shadow Striker because he ins't the main goal scoring threat, that is Salah. I would say 'just' False 9 maybe with some PI's or Defensive Forward with some PI's If you really want to replicate the real life. 

[Curtinho]

21 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Really interesting. Does the RMD get on the end of some of the chances though? 

EDIT: I have done some testing using your tactic as a stepstone. I really loooooove how Firmino plays in your system. One recommendation: Try using Salah as a Winger(A). You will see him stretch space for Mez(A) who either under- or overlaps Salah. 

 

Thanks man! Yeah ultimately the goal was to try and get Firmino to play like he does in real life and so far it seems like the role I've set in this system is close to replicating that. My hesitation in making Salah a winger is that I am still trying to be somewhat true to the Klopp system and right now I'm trying to figure out how to have Salah act more like a wide striker. As the Raumdeuter what I've found is that he does get on the end of some chances (most seem to get blocked for whatever reason) but he's been assisting a lot as opposed to scoring (he ends up hitting Coutinho as the trailer in from the left).

I have ended up playing a few more games last night and really watching large chunks of them and the system seems to be working super well to replicate what I've seen from Liverpool. The press is insane (3, 4 guys harrying the ball at a time really well), the counter attacks are lethal and the interplay is nice. Unfortunately it replicated it too well right down to being up 3-0 against Sevilla in Europe only to finish tied 3-3  (small consolation being that we had way more chances than they did, something like 9 to 3).

13 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

Good luck with this. I tried and tried to get the fab4 working for LFC. I've unfortunately uninstalled the game my stress levels got that high.

Haha I understand. Actually up until I started seriously working on this tactic I was very frustrated too. So far undefeated with 6 wins and 1 draw though with 4 goals allowed and I think 15 goals scored (not at home atm) with 3 of the goals against coming in the game I drew. Feel free to try it out and let me know if it works for you.

1 hour ago, Rooks said:

Salah is the guy who out of the front 3 really doesn't track back allot. He really stays in front. Mane tracks back on the left side and occasionally - because Firminho presses everywhere - drifts in to the middle. Pure based on real life vs Football manager, he isn't a Shadow Striker because he ins't the main goal scoring threat, that is Salah. I would say 'just' False 9 maybe with some PI's or Defensive Forward with some PI's If you really want to replicate the real life. 

Yeah, if you read the whole topic you can see that I changed the system up! Cheers.

[Jyuan83]

@Curtinho i love your firmino role! Just the sort i was looking for to make things interesting for me. Going to try it out for myself! Regarding salah asa raumdeuter assisting more than scoring, i feel that it could be competition between your mez and salah for the same area when they attack- namely, the right half space. When space is scarce i think even salah would find it hard to score. I would say if you wish to continue with the roles then my trick would be to get salah to man mark the centreback closest to him since he does not really track back in real life anyway and this will allow him to abuse the channel between the centreback and fullback.

[Gegenklaus]

Yeah I really love your system. Especially Firminos role. I have been thinking about maybe putting him on a attack duty to Make him more aggressive. I really like playing Mane as W(S) and Salah as a W(A). It might not replicate 100 percent how they play in real life but in terms of FM they perform really, occasionally cut inside but also roam around in the spaces that opens up. 

One obviously strength about your strikerless system is that the oppositions defensive line gets drawn out and Salah, the B2B, Mez(a) and Mane all attacks the space behind in turns. One worry though is that the right flank is vulnerable in defense. The right fullback comes under a lot of pressure in certain games. Especially if the high pressure gets bypassed. Its a risk/reward thing because the Mez and right winger really interacts well.

[Keyzer Soze]

On 17/01/2018 at 14:20, Curtinho said:

The only issue I've got with the system so far is that the main goalscorers so far have been the IF (S) and the MEZ (A) instead of the RMD. The actual run of play seems very similar in distribution to the Liverpool/City game and I'll upload comparisons to it (right down to the number of passes, touches, area of involvement, etc.) Still, the part I liked most was that Firmino acted a lot like he does for Liverpool; he was dropping deep in midfield, he was roaming to both sides of the field, he was almost always involved in the attack, and he was popping up to score goals here and there.

This is probably due to the fact that you have 3 players (Firminho, Salah and Wijnaldum) all with move into channels instructions on the same side of the pitch. Something will have to give, and it's probably Salah that is getting less space.

I wouldn't change Firminho or Salah role, manly because i think Firminho play benefits by having the RMD near, so i think the best way is do something about the MEZ, perhaps changing the duty to support and see how it goes.

[Curtinho]

Thanks for the support and advice guys! Tonight I'll probably work on tweaking the tactic a bit to try and get a more true to life feel to that right side of the field (despite the current level of success). The other thing I've been thinking about is that even though his movement has been really similar I'm not really seeing the same kind of defensive involvement I was hoping for from Firmino. You can see that by looking at this:

Firmino is the hardest working forward there is against the ball, and all of that on a team that often controls possession leaving him with even fewer opportunities for these kind of interventions. I'm considering ticking 'close down much more' and 'tackle harder' to emulate his natural ball hounding nature, but I'm also worried about how the engine will react to that (will he get too many cards, etc.) because even though he is supremely aggressive he's a player with a controlled aggression.

[anorthernboy]

You can't replicate Salah and Firminho as the game is too rigid. The worst match engine IMO.

How many times do keepers carry a cross over the deadball line for a corner? The cross was going dead anyway.

How many "he certainly never meant to do that" do you see?

How many long shots do you see when a through ball or sideways pass is the better option? 

How many times do you see your central midfielder wait sand wait and wait and then finally pass to the fullback? Who has now strayed offside.

I tried playing on commentary only but it's so confusing as the dialect is so poor.

I have restarted but the football on show is terrible.

[Keyzer Soze]

1 hour ago, anorthernboy said:

You can't replicate Salah and Firminho as the game is too rigid. The worst match engine IMO.

How many times do keepers carry a cross over the deadball line for a corner? The cross was going dead anyway.

How many "he certainly never meant to do that" do you see?

How many long shots do you see when a through ball or sideways pass is the better option? 

How many times do you see your central midfielder wait sand wait and wait and then finally pass to the fullback? Who has now strayed offside.

I tried playing on commentary only but it's so confusing as the dialect is so poor.

I have restarted but the football on show is terrible.

Don't understand what the examples you are giving are related with the Firmino role... 

[anorthernboy]

I played him as F9. He drops deep and links up with midfielder, midfielder shoots from distance. 

He drops deep and feed winger, winger crosses to nobody. Keeper catches ball and carries over line.

He drops deep and waits, passes to a midfielder who waits and waits and then us ball to wing back who is offside.

It's rant at the ME in general. I watch the full game and the stuff I see is incredible. Opposition just as guilty.

[Jyuan83]

Hmmmm @Curtinho i think for now adding tackle harder and maybe just close more often instead of much more just to see how it flows in the game. He is the main conductor making everything flow in the final third. I am just afraid that he might run all all over like a headless chicken and neglect creating space for salah. I think honestly the firmino role is more or less settled. Only thing left is the salah role haha.

[davehibb]

I'm looking forward to further updates and analysis @Curtinho 

I did a season with Liverpool and won the league fairly comfortably but I was never really happy with how the front 3 played. I switched between a 4-1-2-3 and a deep 4-2-3-1 but never really got them firing how I liked and was never really happy that I had them in roles that got the best out of them.

[Brian]

Surprised Coutinho is not on the list. In a recent interview with former assistant manager Pepijn Lijnders - he said: 

Quote

Philippe Coutinho was Liverpool's best defender, he took the most balls of players.

 

[Curtinho]

Can you link me to the interview where he says that? It's so far from the truth. Coutinho was one of the worst players we had against the ball to be honest. Mane does way more work down the left than Coutinho did, and Oxlade-Chamberlain does way more work in the middle than Coutinho did.

As for the tactic...I'm happy to say I'll be able to get some analysis up this weekend but wow...changing the Mezzala to a support duty and making Salah an IF (A) has changed things completely. Salah is now bossing and as a whole the tactic is improving.

[Jyuan83]

Adding shoot more often to your salah as an IF on attack? @Curtinho

[davidbarros2]

22 hours ago, Rooks said:

Surprised Coutinho is not on the list. In a recent interview with former assistant manager Pepijn Lijnders - he said: 

 

Pepijn Linjders is from the dutch school of football, I'm very familiar with his tactical philosophy as he was responsible of coordenating the youth academy of my team for years.

With that in mind, probably he wanted to say that Coutinho was the Liverpool player with more ability to hold up ball and not give away possession, therefore, good at defending and taking away balls from the opponents as the dutch school of football advocates having the ball is the best way to defend

[anorthernboy]

I'm trailing Firminho as a Tq in a fluid attacking system. His movement is great but he doesn't close down enough.

[Moutorious]

15 minutes ago, anorthernboy said:

I'm trailing Firminho as a Tq in a fluid attacking system. His movement is great but he doesn't close down enough.

Firmino is anything but a TQ, honestly.

[anorthernboy]

I'm not too sure about that. In a fluid attacking system he should press more. Granted it is not like the relentless nature we see week in week out. I think the Tq gives the overall play he offers which is the primary playmaker almost.

[waynehead]

Would a highly modified Defensive forward on support with all of creative elements added work? I'm going to try it tonight but wondered if anyone had tried it

[Brian]

On 20/01/2018 at 03:57, Curtinho said:

Can you link me to the interview where he says that? It's so far from the truth. Coutinho was one of the worst players we had against the ball to be honest. Mane does way more work down the left than Coutinho did, and Oxlade-Chamberlain does way more work in the middle than Coutinho did.

As for the tactic...I'm happy to say I'll be able to get some analysis up this weekend but wow...changing the Mezzala to a support duty and making Salah an IF (A) has changed things completely. Salah is now bossing and as a whole the tactic is improving.

Don't think you can read it because it's a paid platform from Voetbal International (VI PRO).

https://www.vi.nl/pro/overig/in-de-wereld-van-pen-en-papier-trainer-pepijn-lijnders-bestaat-geen-toeval

[Moutorious]

19 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

I'm not too sure about that. In a fluid attacking system he should press more. Granted it is not like the relentless nature we see week in week out. I think the Tq gives the overall play he offers which is the primary playmaker almost.

He's not a playmaker either mate. Remember Klopp saying something like "pressing is the best playmaker", gives the feeling to me that he tries and avoids having a playmaker role in his team. 

[Gegenklaus]

42 minutes ago, Moutorious said:

He's not a playmaker either mate. Remember Klopp saying something like "pressing is the best playmaker", gives the feeling to me that he tries and avoids having a playmaker role in his team. 

His use of Coutinho in the midfield against teams that sat deep against LFC was most certainly a playmaker. The build up was around him, if you ask me. He had the job to dictate the play.

[anorthernboy]

2 hours ago, Moutorious said:

He's not a playmaker either mate. Remember Klopp saying something like "pressing is the best playmaker", gives the feeling to me that he tries and avoids having a playmaker role in his team. 

Yes what Klopp says applies explicitly to Firminho. "Pressing is the best playmaker" is so true. Firminho is our best at pressing the ball. He's the most important component and for me, the primary playmaker.

[craigd84]

On 1/20/2018 at 19:57, anorthernboy said:

I'm trailing Firminho as a Tq in a fluid attacking system. His movement is great but he doesn't close down enough.

According to @Cleon (iirc) Work rate can make a TREQ close down.

[anorthernboy]

He mentioned on Twitter that he thought a Tq best represented his role. 

[Moutorious]

On 21/01/2018 at 17:21, Gegenklaus said:

His use of Coutinho in the midfield against teams that sat deep against LFC was most certainly a playmaker. The build up was around him, if you ask me. He had the job to dictate the play.

Henderson got way more passes than Coutinho did, didn't attract the ball nearly as much as him. 

[alinp]

On ‎21‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 19:06, anorthernboy said:

Yes what Klopp says applies explicitly to Firminho. "Pressing is the best playmaker" is so true. Firminho is our best at pressing the ball. He's the most important component and for me, the primary playmaker.

Firmino... he's only been here 3 years!!

[anorthernboy]

Your point being?

[Curtinho]

I think he's talking about your spelling of his name.

[anorthernboy]

Haha my bad and apologys. 

[blehq12]

It's very difficult to decide between DF, DLF or F9 for me. But if I'd had to choose one it would be DLF (S) with "Close down even more", "tackle harder", "roam from position" and "move into channels".

[anorthernboy]

He doesn't really drop deep when we have the but rather drifts over to overload certain areas. CF/a or Tq for me.

He drops deep when we're out of possession. Hard to replicate.

[Curtinho]

That's not necessarily true. Even with the ball you can see him drop all the way into midfield at times.

[yonko]

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest pet peeve is how much the False9 role shoots in the game. Even with Shoot Less Often, it takes ridiculous shots from ridiculous positions/situations. I can't stand it. I like pretty much everything else about the role but that. It's been like that ever since the role was introduced into the game and SI haven't done anything to tune it down. I suspect it may have something to do with the hidden code for creative freedom which allows the movement to occur, so the shooting is an unfortunate byproduct of that.

[anorthernboy]

What overall team mentality are you employing?

[Tyrinko]

For me is Firmino role as Treq (sometimes change to F9 during the match). 

My interpretation for Klopp tactics is: Sk(s), fb(s)bpd(d),CB(d),wb(s), DM(s),Btb(s),Cm(s),Raum(a),IF(s),Treq(a)... Very fluid/control. Sometimes changing DM to halfback, Fb to Wb(s), Btb to mezalla(a), Treq to F9

[anorthernboy]

I've tried those 3 roles for Mane, Salah and Firmino but I couldn't get them to work in an Attacking/Flexible set-up.

[Tyrinko]

11 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

I've tried those 3 roles for Mane, Salah and Firmino but I couldn't get them to work in an Attacking/Flexible set-up.

Try control/very fluid (or just fluid) it works amazing for me. Not absolut counter pressing but this season is more control then attack for me