JamieWilkinson Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Okay, this is griping me now. I've put countless hours into FM over the years, but the past two editions meant I've found myself less immersed due to the simple fact that regens must be way down on the list of importance for SI, because their faces definitely keep changing for the worse. I understand that the gameplay/match engine etc. is a big deal for SI at the moment, but for someone like me who enjoys long saves where the whole of my team will be regens that I've taken the time to scout, train and bring through the ranks, having about 6 or 7 hairstyles for 20+ players and faces that look like clay really takes a lot of the enjoyment out of longer saves due to the lack of personality I feel the regens have. What makes it worse is that with the new 3D face models (most pointless feature ever because the majority of players don't zoom right in on faces in game) you can't even use talented modder's resources to make them look more varied, such as Debski's hairstyles. It feels like a pointless backward with the alien looking regens of last year and now the clay-putty-like ones we've got this year. I get you're trying to make them look better for the long run but it clearly isn't ready to be implemented yet, the old regens from FM'16 and before looked way better, and with added hairstyles from content creators, helped players feel distinguishable from one another, really helped the immersion-factor. Why change it for the worse? I've seen a few threads on this already, with replies such as 'get used to it', 'it's not a gameplay issue, its in your mind' or 'it'll be better in the long run'. Don't come at me with those cop-out excuses, firstly, why should we have to 'get used' to poor graphical choices with no logical reasoning to make them worse? And if it'll look better in the long run, why not wait until it's ready to be implemented instead of rushing it out and claiming it to be a 'new feature'. As for it not being a gameplay issue, if multiple people are complaining about it and it's actually forcing people to skip this addition of FM then why not address our concerns properly? Seriously, if a modder can make the image attached in 2 minutes, why can't there be more effort from SI's part when they have a year to perfect it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrbanLFC Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 I agree with you there. I can't get into FM18 like I did with the other FM's because I know it will be no immersion in future of the save. What I don't get is how a games company owned by Sega are unable to make good looking face graphics. It baffles me because independent game companies that has a team of 2/3, can make ultra realistic gameplay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
podunkboy Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 It's quite simple - SEGA/SI no longer cares about the visual quality of their products and wants us all to be sad. The visual component of players and managers is so disappointing this year that I can't see me throwing good money at FM anymore. I really don't care about dynamics if my players either have no face or the crainial-facial hair of my Uncle George. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbchuz Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 As a general comment, I find the justifications for changes that clearly reduce the quality/enjoyment of the game really odd, like the one you mentioned about the declining appearance and realism of newgens being "better in the long run". Who gives a ****? Release it when it's better then, not while it's still worse. I appreciate that many people are big fans of the game, myself included, but they sometimes behave like company spokespersons assuring shareholders that the final product will be better. I'm a player, this is the final version of the game I've bought. The other one that really irks me is when people excuse Match Engine rubbish because "it's actually just a visual representation of what is being simulated, not the actual simulation, so don't take everything too literally." Why, as a player, should I care how things are working under the hood? What I see is the game. I shouldn't have to empathise with the code and use my imagination to excuse what the game is showing me to avoid breaking the immersion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DP Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Couldn’t agree more with the comments here. Terrible design decisions with the regens the last few years and zero justification for it if you listen to the reasons. I can only presume it’s something they’ve not officially told us like the contract with the original facegen provider ended or became too expensive so now they do it in house. Either way this must be down to money somehow as there’s no other reason to reduce the quality of something that was so much better 2/3 years ago. It’s hard to find another use case in the entire technology world that compares. Very strange situation all round. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFuller Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 I think we've been here before. 6 hours ago, JamieWilkinson said: Seriously, if a modder can make the image attached in 2 minutes, why can't there be more effort from SI's part when they have a year to perfect it? Because that 'better-looking' face wasn't completely computer-generated. The modder who created that image added the 2D hair himself. Even in 2017, I'd be amazed if a computer could replicate that face by itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucket Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Seems to me they’ve tried to change things far too quickly in this years FM and it’s gone backwards. I’ve been a very loyal customer since the Championship Manager days, but this one I think hands down is one of the worst. It’s laggy, buggy, the Manager pic and the regen pics are just downright crap and as the Op mentioned, why cannot they not use someone to come in and do the hairstyles, facial hair etc for them. The problems playing on an Mac with retina doesn’t seem like it will ever be fixed. If it isn’t broke why fix it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucket Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, CFuller said: I think we've been here before. Because that 'better-looking' face wasn't completely computer-generated. The modder who created that image added the 2D hair himself. Even in 2017, I'd be amazed if a computer could replicate that face by itself. 15 years old and he’s got a full beard 😂. My step son is 18 and he’s only got bum fluff 🤣🤣 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFuller Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, bucket said: 15 years old and he’s got a full beard 😂. My step son is 18 and he’s only got bum fluff 🤣🤣 I've had 16-year-olds who look like Alan Cork, and that's even with Debski. I'd say that the newgen faces in FM18 are a significant improvement on FM17. From what I have seen, newgens do look more like their ethnicities (in FM17, I came across a load of Greek/Spanish newgens who looked East Asian). There's also a bit more variety in the faces - there are some good-looking ones, and some Phil Joneses, like the not-so-great example above. The only real issue to me is the lack of variety in the hair, but that will surely improve in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkork Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 34 minutes ago, bucket said: 15 years old and he’s got a full beard 😂. My step son is 18 and he’s only got bum fluff 🤣🤣 I think that's one of the reasons we have that negative stereotype about British people (can't say it here, it's about sexual preferences ). People in England in particular. I mean, I had to shave from the age of 12-14 if I recall correctly. Ok, I wasn't the majority, but if you come to Greece you'll see many 16y/17y old bearded teens . P.S. I do hope it's not offensive what I wrote (because we live in a "politically correct" world now and I don't really know the English rules towards political correctness). But you can clearly understand that, me being here, means that I don't believe in such stupid stereotypes. If it is, please edit it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewhirst Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 It would be nice to have more variety, more facial hair and hairstyles and it would also be nice if my regens didn't randomly go bald one day and then have a full head of hair the next. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieWilkinson Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 4 hours ago, CFuller said: I think we've been here before. Because that 'better-looking' face wasn't completely computer-generated. The modder who created that image added the 2D hair himself. Even in 2017, I'd be amazed if a computer could replicate that face by itself. Even so, if why add the 3D models if it's going to cause a significant drop in quality? Literally no-one cares about the 3D-model in game being spot on to what the picture looks like in the UI screens. Guarantee the majority would rather have more detailed, varied regens in the UI screen (where you spend the majority of the game) and just have models with their hair and skin colours to distinguish them in the match engine. I'd sooner have that than have the bland, clay-like, featureless regens that the game currently has. The 3D models in-game are that similar to the 2D ones anyway, I didn't even notice the change until someone pointed it out. The faces are an improvement on last year but that's not saying much. The hair however...what the hell is this? The first one looks like a blob, and not even mentioning the bald patch on the second, but who in the world has a fringe like that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFuller Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 41 minutes ago, JamieWilkinson said: The first one looks like a blob, and not even mentioning the bald patch on the second, but who in the world has a fringe like that? Where is that image taken from? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieWilkinson Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 12 hours ago, CFuller said: Where is that image taken from? The manager creation screen when you first edit your appearance. As far as I know, regens use the same hair models so it's not exactly a great effort from SI's part. Set to the highest graphics possible at 1080p too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
upthetoon Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 a random software on the net can generate 3d faces better than SI. I really don't understand why this 3d face was released before it was anywhere near ready. its so terrible now and makes long term save difficult to get immersed into. FM17 atleast had the mods.. this doesn't even allow modding which makes it in harder and baffling on SI's part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandersson Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Don't ask don't tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdstanbridge Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I totally agree with the original poster. I've also added a negative review to steam. It frustrates me because I've posted what I consider genuine bugs in the regen faces and I've not had any reply at all from the dev team. It's very frustrating. It's a shame because I haven't played in a few days now, and I have no desire to, until this is fixed. This is from a player with 3,000+ hours in the games. I think what really did it for me was seeing three sets of identical regen twins in my lineup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieWilkinson Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 hours ago, pdstanbridge said: I totally agree with the original poster. I've also added a negative review to steam. It frustrates me because I've posted what I consider genuine bugs in the regen faces and I've not had any reply at all from the dev team. It's very frustrating. It's a shame because I haven't played in a few days now, and I have no desire to, until this is fixed. This is from a player with 3,000+ hours in the games. I think what really did it for me was seeing three sets of identical regen twins in my lineup. I saw your review, very eloquently put. Surely someone from their camp must browse steam reviews, the forum, the discussion page on Steam...anything! The only thing I can think of is they either don’t want to admit they’ve made a mistake, or they frankly don’t care about customer concerns. Luckily I got this edition for free after my mate accidentally bought two copies from a third-party seller, I would never have paid money for it. At this point I’m just gonna go back to ‘16 until they put some more effort in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
b28937 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 To me, the best way to play is with no faces at all -- no faces that come with the game, no facepacks, no regens. i find the faces to be nothing but a useless and annoying distraction. The game looks so much cleaner without them. (of course, I recognize many people like them, nothing wrong with that, but if you're one of the people annoyed by them, get rid of them and see how you like it). In any event, complaining isn't going to change anything, no matter how spot-on the complaint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 On 11/28/2017 at 07:20, CFuller said: I think we've been here before. Because that 'better-looking' face wasn't completely computer-generated. The modder who created that image added the 2D hair himself. Even in 2017, I'd be amazed if a computer could replicate that face by itself. Yep, this. A manually created 2D image is always likely to look better than many examples of procedurally generated 3D images. Besides which, the most notable actual facial difference between the modded and SI face is that the SI face is lower resolution and pretty ugly. If you haven't seen an ugly footballer, you haven't watched much football. The hairstyle's a bit dubious, but the face is obviously a massive improvement on the FM17 aliens. The manually generated left hand face looks a bit too much like a Ken doll to me anyway. I'm not overly convinced the switch from 2D to 3D faces has been a good move in the short term, but people don't half have some odd expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DP Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 My expectation is literally to be at the same level they were in fm14/15. If that’s 2D then so be it. Work on the 3d stuff in the background but deploy it when it’s ready. That seems far too straight forward though so I must be missing something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAD-RELIGION Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Is one of my issues about the game, I normally do long saves (20 to 30 years) and its riddiculous to see that all my players look like they were createad by computer software from 1995. Very dissapointed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFuller Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Has it become fashionable for users to slate FM for having graphics "from the 1990s"? If people actually went back to playing games from the 1990s and looked at the graphics from back then, you would see a massive difference between then and now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandersson Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 36 minutes ago, CFuller said: Has it become fashionable for users to slate FM for having graphics "from the 1990s"? If people actually went back to playing games from the 1990s and looked at the graphics from back then, you would see a massive difference between then and now. I think you're missing the point here. I could tell you that these are just static images and not in-game graphics or animations, but this isn't the point either. The point is that current quality and variety of regens faces and hairstyles has worsened since FM16 (with FM17 being the biggest monstrosity). Not only that, as the new 3D model of FM18 means that external modders like Debsky or OLT (who have made the game so much more enjoyable for years with their hair packs) cannot provide their mods anymore (for now at least). So we're stuck with very low variety/racial diversity of faces, and extremely poor variety/quality of hairstyles (no facial hair btw). An argument I've read is the new 3D model will allow great improvements in the future. We're paying for the present though, if this feature is not ready then no point introducing it at this stage. Especially after very clear feedback of past two years, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.