Why is Henrikh Mkhitaryan so average?

[MatchWinner]

I was shocked when I saw Henrikh Mkhitaryan's profile in FM 2017 .  It looks as though it hasn't been updated for about 3 years - just really really average for a player with such incredible goal & assist stats for last season.  Sure, his off the ball and work rate are decent but I can't see him recreating his 20+ goals and 30+ assists in-game (in all competitions).

I'm not expecting Ronaldo / Messi levels of brilliance, but you'd expect him to be at around the same level as De Bruyne or someone of that standard at the very least, right???

[Welshace]

Data issue ....

 

If you think he's underrated in game, you can raise it in the data issue forums with proof of why you think as such.

[MatchWinner]

1 minute ago, Welshace said:

Data issue ....

 

If you think he's underrated in game, you can raise it in the data issue forums with proof of why you think as such.

Could you post a link as I couldn't see one before posting the above.  Thanks.

[moyesout]

check the united team in clubs forum, he performs anything but average

[MatchWinner]

4 minutes ago, moyesout said:

check the united team in clubs forum, he performs anything but average

WHERE?!

[moyesout]

5 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

WHERE?!

CTRL F his name/Miki and you'll see what people got out of him

[Cougar2010]

36 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

I was shocked when I saw Henrikh Mkhitaryan's profile in FM 2017 .  It looks as though it hasn't been updated for about 3 years - just really really average for a player with such incredible goal & assist stats for last season.  Sure, his off the ball and work rate are decent but I can't see him recreating his 20+ goals and 30+ assists in-game (in all competitions).

I'm not expecting Ronaldo / Messi levels of brilliance, but you'd expect him to be at around the same level as De Bruyne or someone of that standard at the very least, right???

This is why you shouldn't judge players just by looking at their attributes.

Its how they combine + tactics + hidden attributes which define how good a player is on the pitch.

[MatchWinner]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

This is why you shouldn't judge players just by looking at their attributes.

Its how they combine + tactics + hidden attributes which define how good a player is on the pitch.

Yeah, I get that.  But his attributes are SO incredibly low across the board.  This is a guy that statistically has a great end product - but in the game he has finishing (13), long shots (13), composure (11), passing (13), vision (14), crossing (12).  For someone that is so good at scoring and creating chances I don't get why the related values are so weak?

[Cougar2010]

23 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

Yeah, I get that.  But his attributes are SO incredibly low across the board.  This is a guy that statistically has a great end product - but in the game he has finishing (13), long shots (13), composure (11), passing (13), vision (14), crossing (12).  For someone that is so good at scoring and creating chances I don't get why the related values are so weak?

Two footed is the answer.

If he was single footed his other attributes would all be at least a couple of points higher.

[Guest]

It could be that other players have been overrated slightly & need a ratings readjustment with Mkhitaryan as the base metric.

[MatchWinner]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Two footed is the answer.

If he was single footed his other attributes would all be at least a couple of points higher.

That's ridiculous.

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, moyesout said:

check the united team in clubs forum, he performs anything but average

19 goals and 27 assists in 43 games for me first season. 

[Fer Fuchs Ake]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Two footed is the answer.

If he was single footed his other attributes would all be at least a couple of points higher.

Would they really reduce his attributes just because he's two-footed though?

[Cougar2010]

6 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

That's ridiculous.

Its not when you think about it and the way the coding works.

If you take two equal players attributes wise with say 150CA, one single footed & the other two footed then its easy to see that the two footed player is better but this would mean he needed a higher CA which would also be unfair.  Therefore weak foot ability needs to be taken into account along with other attributes.  So if a player has a higher weak foot ability then his attributes needs to be lower so that he isn't OP for his overall ability in the ME.

If you have a better way of doing it feel free to suggest it but in twenty years no-one has.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I suspect this thread wouldn't have cropped up 4 weeks ago. 

[MatchWinner]

16 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I suspect this thread wouldn't have cropped up 4 weeks ago. 

Yeah that's what worries me - that someone assumed Miki wasn't such a special player because Mourinho wouldn't play him.  Then again, assuming his values were chosen by the Dortmund researcher, I don't think the Dortmund researcher has watched a game for 3 years if Miki and Aubameyang are anything to go by...

[HUNT3R]

Honestly, the German researchers are some of the best around. As said, look at how he performs. Judging by TMS's post, it's about how he's used.

[Bigpapa42]

16 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

Yeah that's what worries me - that someone assumed Miki wasn't such a special player because Mourinho wouldn't play him.  Then again, assuming his values were chosen by the Dortmund researcher, I don't think the Dortmund researcher has watched a game for 3 years if Miki and Aubameyang are anything to go by...

Have you looked at how they perform at all? "Underrated" Aubameyang is consistently one of the most productive strikers in the game. I looked at one test game I ran and he had about 75 league goals in 4 season between Dortmund and PSG. Managed by the AI. That's not an anomaly - he does that in almost any save. He may not have amazing technical skills but his physical and mental attributes compensate more than adequately. Consider that upping his technical attributes into the 17-19 range would likely put his CA into the top few players in the game (and he's not quite there) and elevate his in-game goal-scoring prowess to unrealistic levels. 

Calling Mkhitaryan is obviously being facetious. Again, his technical attributes aren't brilliant, but his mental and physicals more than make up for it. His combination of attributes make him a very unique player. You won't find almost any other versatile winger/midfielder with his levels of work rate, teamwork, stamina, natural fitness, and some of his "average" technical skills. And once again, have you actually tried him in a game? Because the AI seems to be able to make pretty effective use of him. 

[HemHat]

On 26/12/2016 at 18:50, Cougar2010 said:

Its not when you think about it and the way the coding works.

If you take two equal players attributes wise with say 150CA, one single footed & the other two footed then its easy to see that the two footed player is better but this would mean he needed a higher CA which would also be unfair.  Therefore weak foot ability needs to be taken into account along with other attributes.  So if a player has a higher weak foot ability then his attributes needs to be lower so that he isn't OP for his overall ability in the ME.

If you have a better way of doing it feel free to suggest it but in twenty years no-one has.

Why would the two footed player having a higher CA be unfair? He's the better player.

[Cougar2010]

53 minutes ago, HemHat said:

Why would the two footed player having a higher CA be unfair? He's the better player.

Exactly.

150CA player who is two footed is better than a 150CA player who is one footed therefore weak foot ability needs to take up CA.

or put differently:

Two players with equal attributes - The first has 150CA while the second would have to have more CA as he is better.

 

[Guest]

That's utter nonsense.

[Cougar2010]

11 minutes ago, Barside said:

That's utter nonsense.

Whats nonsense?

C'mon Barside you know better than to post like that without expanding and explaining.

[Wells]

Really? CA are the same, so he isn't better but he has an advantage over the other..

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, Wells said:

Really? CA are the same, so he isn't better but he has an advantage over the other..

Ah, badly worded.

If two players have 150CA spent on attributes with one being single footed and the other two footed then the two footed player would be generally better.

As we seem to be picky this morning I'll also add that we are talking general CA terms and how good they actually are on the pitch will depend on attribute spread/tactics/hidden attributes/etc.

[oneronaldo]

Any higher and he would be winning Ballon d'Ors left right and centre. His present attributes are more than adequate to produce 15+goals & 20+ assists a season from the right wing.

[HemHat]

Rather than linking footedness to CA, would it not be better to limit attributes if a player uses their weaker foot?

For example, player a has a right foot rating of 20 and a left foot rating of 4. He has the exact same technical stats as player b. Player b has a right foot rating of 20 and left foot rating of 15. 

When player a is forced to use his left then his technical attributes drop by x amount. When player b is forced to use his left, his technical attributes drop by y amount. Y is a lesser value than x so it compensates for player b being better on his left. 

This seems fairer than potentially limiting a players stats to allow him to use both feet. Do I understand that correctly, that a player would have higher stats if he was crap with one foot rather than good with both?

[Foss]

2 hours ago, HemHat said:

Rather than linking footedness to CA, would it not be better to limit attributes if a player uses their weaker foot?

For example, player a has a right foot rating of 20 and a left foot rating of 4. He has the exact same technical stats as player b. Player b has a right foot rating of 20 and left foot rating of 15. 

When player a is forced to use his left then his technical attributes drop by x amount. When player b is forced to use his left, his technical attributes drop by y amount. Y is a lesser value than x so it compensates for player b being better on his left. 

This seems fairer than potentially limiting a players stats to allow him to use both feet. Do I understand that correctly, that a player would have higher stats if he was crap with one foot rather than good with both?

What do you think happens in the match engine when a player attempts an action with his weaker foot? His technical attributes are worse for that action depending on how good or bad his weaker foot is. Footedness does not limit a player's attributes, it's weighted like any other attribute and used in the calculation for determining Current Ability because it is an attribute. Players aren't just naturally better at using both feet, it's something they've spent a lot of time training on.

[HemHat]

2 minutes ago, Foss said:

What do you think happens in the match engine when a player attempts an action with his weaker foot? His technical attributes are worse for that action depending on how good or bad his weaker foot is. Footedness does not limit a player's attributes, it's weighted like any other attribute and used in the calculation for determining Current Ability.

What I think happens is exactly what you've just described.

If footedness is used for determining CA, then it will limit his attributes won't it? For example, if a player was one footed, and reached his maximum CA then some of his attributes would be higher than if he was trained to be two footed, would they not? Cougar said as much here:

On 26/12/2016 at 16:56, Cougar2010 said:

Two footed is the answer.

If he was single footed his other attributes would all be at least a couple of points higher.

I may be mis-understanding how the system works, so feel free to correct me.

 

I don't think that is a fair way of working it. CA should be separate. A players base stats shouldn't be affected by whether or not he can use both feet. 

[Foss]

Imagine Player A, who has trained himself to be excellent at delivering and shooting the ball. Crossing, passing, set pieces, long shots, all of these attributes are of an excellent quality - but only with his left foot.
Now, imagine Player B, who has practised these skills with both of his feet so that in Football Manager terms his weak foot would be at least 15. Even though B's attributes are good enough for him to be a top level player, he isn't as good as A who is better at passing, crossing and shooting with his left foot than B is with either foot. Player A and B would be approximately equal in terms of Current Ability, but if footedness wasn't considered an attribute a discrepancy would form with player A being ahead of B by some amount.

[HemHat]

Using your example that sounds exactly like it should, A is the better player, B just has the advantage of being able to use both feet, which can help, admittedly, but A should be ahead.

All I'm saying is I don't feel a player should be penalised for being better with both feet. There should be no reason a player who is two footed can't have the same stats as a player with one good foot and the same CA.

Digressing, in my opinion there is no excuse for a professional to not be at least acceptable with his weaker foot irl anyway. 

[MatchWinner]

3 hours ago, oneronaldo said:

Any higher and he would be winning Ballon d'Ors left right and centre. His present attributes are more than adequate to produce 15+goals & 20+ assists a season from the right wing.

See, this is a prime example of why I have an issue with his.  Why WOULDN'T he be a contender for winning the Ballon d'Ors?  His stats were incredible last season.  His goal + assist total was probably only second to Messi and Ronaldo and yet you're implying he's not the sort of player to even come close to being a contender???  Seeing him in football manager I can understand why you'd think that, but in reality he's a top top player (regardless of whether he can use both fricking feet ).

[HUNT3R]

Just now, MatchWinner said:

See, this is a prime example of why I have an issue with his.  Why WOULDN'T he be a contender for winning the Ballon d'Ors?  His stats were incredible last season.  His goal + assist total was probably only second to Messi and Ronaldo and yet you're implying he's not the sort of player to even come close to being a contender???  Seeing him in football manager I can understand why you'd think that, but in reality he's a top top player (regardless of whether he can use both fricking feet ).

Two users have stated in this thread that he's very good in-game.

[Foss]

Two-footed players aren't penalised, it's just that usually they aren't the best technicians around. Players aren't able to train both feet at the same time. Time spent towards becoming two-footed means there's less time in perfecting their skills with the stronger foot. Also, there are 166 players with at least 140 CA and a weaker foot of 8 or worse in the database.

[Bigpapa42]

16 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

See, this is a prime example of why I have an issue with his.  Why WOULDN'T he be a contender for winning the Ballon d'Ors?  His stats were incredible last season.  His goal + assist total was probably only second to Messi and Ronaldo and yet you're implying he's not the sort of player to even come close to being a contender???  Seeing him in football manager I can understand why you'd think that, but in reality he's a top top player (regardless of whether he can use both fricking feet ).

Please explain what experience you've had with him that make the current ratings so unacceptable. As has been stated several times, he is capable in-game of putting up impressive numbers. If have never actually tried him in game, that doesn't exactly a lot of weight to your argument.

What oneronaldo said is that if Mkhitaryan was improved much, he would literally win the award in-game every season. He never said he should never be under consideration. And having him wining it repeatedly in-game is not realistic because even with the stats he has put up at Dortmund, he was never in the top twenty for the award. Fair or not, that's the reality of it.

[Guest]

I would like to point out to the OP that data issues like this do indeed exist in the game, and some of them are downright weird. Philippe Coutinho, for instance, who is the Premier League's second best free kick taker of the past few seasons (statistically, that is), has a free kick rating of 11. And a long shots rating of 11 as well, even though he's one of the best in the Premier League. He is also rated 10+ points worse than Juan Mata, in CA terms. The Man United team has half a dozen free kick takers better than Coutinho, according to the game data.

 

This is not a complaint. I don't think this kind of stuff is ultimately avoidable, given how many players there are in the game. But some of the decisions concerning the very best make me wonder.

[Wells]

@xzar_monty Blame the Liverpool researcher who given him those values.

[themadsheep2001]

This thread is a good example of looking at attributes and judging a player without seeing them play vs watching how the attributes balance together. Miki is a lethal player, his two footedness and balance of attributes make him incredibly hard to stop. 

[HUNT3R]

49 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I would like to point out to the OP that data issues like this do indeed exist in the game, and some of them are downright weird. Philippe Coutinho, for instance, who is the Premier League's second best free kick taker of the past few seasons (statistically, that is), has a free kick rating of 11. And a long shots rating of 11 as well, even though he's one of the best in the Premier League. He is also rated 10+ points worse than Juan Mata, in CA terms. The Man United team has half a dozen free kick takers better than Coutinho, according to the game data.

 

This is not a complaint. I don't think this kind of stuff is ultimately avoidable, given how many players there are in the game. But some of the decisions concerning the very best make me wonder.

Back it up with evidence, such as stats, that illustrate your point and the Liverpool researcher will definitely engage you into why he has chosen the attributes he did or agree with your point and change it for future. Data issues section. 

[Guest]

@HUNT3R: I did. He didn't budge, despite the evidence being rather overwhelming, in my opinion. (Evidence A: Philippe Coutinho's scoring percentage from free kicks is the Premier League's second best, over the past few seasons. But apparently that means nothing.)

 

Your suggestion is indeed very good, and the subject was taken up in the Data issues section, with plenty of statistical evidence presented, but that's as far as it went. (I'm fine with it.)

[s1111]

Mkhi has the fourth highest CA for natural AMRs in the game and the 15th for natural AMCs, if that's average I clearly need more average players in my team. And he has a unique combination of attributes (very high anticipation, otb, teamwork, work rate, physicals with decent technicals) two footedness and versatility that actually makes him outperform his CA in game and represents his real life abilities very well, where he can be slotted into any position or role in M/AM and produce. He has the same CA as Hamsik and Isco for example but I would probably take him over both of them because of his uniqueness.

And Aubameyang has the 11th best CA for strikers and is the second fastest player in the game after Bellerin. That speed combined with 18 otb and 16 anticipation, hell you could give him 7 for finishing and dribbling and he could still score 30 goals a season in the right system.  

You could bump both their technicals up slightly and add 4-5 CA points to them but it would make almost no difference to how they perform in game. Neither of them are technically brilliant, it's why they were relatively late bloomers with Mkhi not leaving Ukraine until 24 and Aubameyang getting discarded by AC Milan and having to rebuild his career in France.

[Guest]

Excellent analysis of both players there, too many people are focused on the raw CA in the belief that it is that value which defines how good a player is.

[oneronaldo]

3 hours ago, Barside said:

Excellent analysis of both players there, too many people are focused on the raw CA in the belief that it is that value which defines how good a player is.

The concept of attribute spread (attributes in key areas vital to the player's position & role) rather than CA being more important to how a player performs still seems an alien concept to many unfortunately.

[BoxToBox]

Mkhitayrian is anything but average ingame. He can and will cut teams apart. His attributes combined with two footedness means he can also cover a wide variety of roles in all the positions he's capable of playing in.

[Guest]

tbh teh game is partially responsible for this as the star rating system just looks at the CA value in isolation so I coudl see a player like Mikhitayrian end up with a 3-3.5 star rating, some of the changes over recent releases have helped correct that but it is still a case that a player with a CA of 170 with poorly distributed attributes & lousy hidden attributes will be rated higher than a perfectly balanced CA150 player with perfect hidden attributes.

[Bigpapa42]

5 hours ago, s1111 said:

Mkhi has the fourth highest CA for natural AMRs in the game and the 15th for natural AMCs, if that's average I clearly need more average players in my team. And he has a unique combination of attributes (very high anticipation, otb, teamwork, work rate, physicals with decent technicals) two footedness and versatility that actually makes him outperform his CA in game and represents his real life abilities very well, where he can be slotted into any position or role in M/AM and produce. He has the same CA as Hamsik and Isco for example but I would probably take him over both of them because of his uniqueness.

And Aubameyang has the 11th best CA for strikers and is the second fastest player in the game after Bellerin. That speed combined with 18 otb and 16 anticipation, hell you could give him 7 for finishing and dribbling and he could still score 30 goals a season in the right system.  

You could bump both their technicals up slightly and add 4-5 CA points to them but it would make almost no difference to how they perform in game. Neither of them are technically brilliant, it's why they were relatively late bloomers with Mkhi not leaving Ukraine until 24 and Aubameyang getting discarded by AC Milan and having to rebuild his career in France.

Excellent work. Thank you! And I think you are quite right on their technical attributes not being amazing for both players.

With Aybmeyang, the pace/acceleration combo along with his 18 Off the Ball means he can utterly destroy defenders on thru balls. 15 Anticipation helps too.

The versatility that Mkhitaryan brings is definitely unique. Natural at both spots on the right wing, plus AMC, accomplished at both left wing positions, and could easily be retrained to be an effective MC. He's a great player in the game, and in reality.

[oneronaldo]

8 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Excellent work. Thank you! And I think you are quite right on their technical attributes not being amazing for both players.

With Aybmeyang, the pace/acceleration combo along with his 18 Off the Ball means he can utterly destroy defenders on thru balls. 15 Anticipation helps too.

The versatility that Mkhitaryan brings is definitely unique. Natural at both spots on the right wing, plus AMC, accomplished at both left wing positions, and could easily be retrained to be an effective MC. He's a great player in the game, and in reality.

If my memory serves me right, wasn't Mkhitaryan listed as a natural at CM just a few versions ago when he was still at Shakhtar?

[BoxToBox]

6 minutes ago, oneronaldo said:

If my memory serves me right, wasn't Mkhitaryan listed as a natural at CM just a few versions ago when he was still at Shakhtar?

Even in his first season at Dortmund, IIRC.

[bluearmy19]

Well with Zlatan playing like a combination of CR7 and the Brazillian Ronaldo, I guess they had to take it away from somewhere. I don't mean to rage, but United have some of the most overpowered players in every version of FM. Last year it was Ashley Young playing like CR7... someone in the data room must really like them.

[themadsheep2001]

This thread has run it's course. A good a example of not just looking at attritbutes, but seeing how they play out.