Pace/acceleration is all wrong

[dazbowski]

Been experimenting with this for a bit.

I played a team full of 15+ pace and acc all on 90% fitness or more against a team full of 10 or less for pace/acc/

The amount of times my players were out paced was ridiculous, particularly with their defenders against my strikers.

I also noticed players never hit the ball in front of themselves and chace it. giving the defenders an easier job of catching them. Especially the the forwards with low dribbling attributes.

Is this a known issue? It might explain the lack of goals scored from through balls to strikers.

[bleventozturk]

Been experimenting with this for a bit.

I played a team full of 15+ pace and acc all on 90% fitness or more against a team full of 10 or less for pace/acc/

The amount of times my players were out paced was ridiculous, particularly with their defenders against my strikers.

I also noticed players never hit the ball in front of themselves and chace it. giving the defenders an easier job of catching them. Especially the the forwards with low dribbling attributes.

Is this a known issue? It might explain the lack of goals scored from through balls to strikers.

This is my biggest issue with the ME right now. I certainly don't want it to go back to how it was in old versions, where pace and acceleration meant everything, but right now we almost never see fast players using their pace.

I've been told that it is a known issue, but SI wants more pkm's to look into this.

[Nocuous]

Have you ever tried running as fast as you can while maintaining relative control of a football? Not the most easy thing. There are players down in the lower leagues who are as quick as anyone's business (wasn't there a semi-pro footballer who became an Olympic Sprinter or something like that) but if you don't have other qualities to round it off, you're not going to be much of a footballer. If you think Pace and Acceleration are broken in FM, then pay them no bother and just get slow players. There are plenty of older players knocking about with great mental and technical stats that are lacking in speed, so play with those guys upfront and see how you get on. My guess would be not entirely well.

[Cougar2010]

Been experimenting with this for a bit.

I played a team full of 15+ pace and acc all on 90% fitness or more against a team full of 10 or less for pace/acc/

The amount of times my players were out paced was ridiculous, particularly with their defenders against my strikers.

I also noticed players never hit the ball in front of themselves and chace it. giving the defenders an easier job of catching them. Especially the the forwards with low dribbling attributes.

Is this a known issue? It might explain the lack of goals scored from through balls to strikers.

Low dribblers getting caught by defenders, who would have thought it!

Seriously pace is not a lot of good if they can't control the ball.

[Uri]

Been experimenting with this for a bit.

I played a team full of 15+ pace and acc all on 90% fitness or more against a team full of 10 or less for pace/acc/

The amount of times my players were out paced was ridiculous, particularly with their defenders against my strikers.

I also noticed players never hit the ball in front of themselves and chace it. giving the defenders an easier job of catching them. Especially the the forwards with low dribbling attributes.

Is this a known issue? It might explain the lack of goals scored from through balls to strikers.

Good Positioning and anticipation ,or first touch ,marking ,aggression and using easy tackling together with composure concentration and strength to negate those speedy players...But I won't start a match until I am sure this issue has been solved...

[dazbowski]

Low dribblers getting caught by defenders, who would have thought it!

Seriously pace is not a lot of good if they can't control the ball.

Is that what I said? Blindly defending things isn't going to help.

One on one races, not prepared to knock the ball in front of themselves, Defenders with 4 or 5 pace acc out sprinting a 18/18 guy?

[HUNT3R]

One on one races, not prepared to knock the ball in front of themselves, Defenders with 4 or 5 pace acc out sprinting a 18/18 guy?

Please report instances like these in the bugs forum.

[RTHerringbone]

It's a known issue. A productive way to get it resolved is to upload examples of pacy, competent dribblers being outpaced by slower carthorses.

[dazbowski]

Also noticed strikers when put through have a habit of stopping to try and shoot rather than hit it on the run giving the defender chance to catch them.

[dazbowski]

It's a known issue. A productive way to get it resolved is to upload examples of pacy, competent dribblers being outpaced by slower carthorses.

Ok, will do. Is there a thread set up?

[sporadicsmiles]

Dribbling with the ball and a chase between two players to the ball are completely different. I have found quite regularly that when there is a chase between two players for the ball then pace and acceleration are very important. When players have the ball, their dribbling skill is important too. There are some things to be tweaked with dribbling though, specifically the pauses you sometimes see when a player is through on goal.

[RTHerringbone]

Ok, will do. Is there a thread set up?

Not really, this is the closest there is: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/412258-Precision-dribbling-when-wide-open-with-tons-of-space

[Ifail]

Studge( run with ball often) and sterling(knock ball past oponent) has no problems especially with their ppm bypassing defenders on flanks and centrally. I think this 2 ppm are the one you need to utilise players pace ( also help if u have gerrard coutinho passing to them)

[Cougar2010]

Is that what I said? Blindly defending things isn't going to help.

I also noticed players never hit the ball in front of themselves and chace it. giving the defenders an easier job of catching them. Especially the the forwards with low dribbling attributes.

Knocking the ball in front of you is dribbling.

[dazbowski]

Knocking the ball in front of you is dribbling.

No it isn't. running with the ball at your feet is dribbling.

[Ifail]

I was saying is that once he knocks the ball around sterling can dribble against the second defender that helps the first defender after that he goes full speed going to the goal. For me its knocking the ball ( passing the first defender or using his first touch to knock ball lil bit to the side is technically dribling himself out of trouble) Whilst, sturridge if you watch him (in game) is the player you are looking for (hence you need the ppm run with ball often) I play him false9 sometimes ss and if(S) he gets the ball take on the dm or midfielder that was with him beat thm with his dribbling and pace and pss it to balo or sterling or pass back to coutinho or henderson running behind him. IT depends on the team as well.

You can also have great success with central players (cms,bbms,f9s,ss,Treqs) with run wide with ball they will dribble to the corner but u need to support them

[Uri]

Dribbling refers to a players ability to dribble with the ball and is only proficient when he has the ball at his feet. An excellent dribbler requires also good balance and agility, while pace and acceleration might be worthy as well in order to dribble past their markers, as the dribbling attribute alone will not make him get by.:o

[bleventozturk]

Knocking the ball in front of you is dribbling.

There are two types of dribbling. Precision dribbling in traffic (Messi is very successful at it), and knocking the ball and running after it (there are many players who are better than Messi in this one, because of their superior pace).

[scott MUFC]

is this why a huge number of my chances are getting wasted? so many chances are getting wasted by my players not latching onto rebounds, or running like they are stuck in tar when in the opposition area.

[Porthos]

Knocking ball ahead and using pace dribble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QMTnnBUnqM

Ball stuck to feet dribble:

Good luck ever seeing that first goal in FM.

[Uri]

Knocking ball ahead and using pace dribble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QMTnnBUnqM

Ball stuck to feet dribble:

Good luck ever seeing that first goal in FM.

[dazbowski]

Knocking ball ahead and using pace dribble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QMTnnBUnqM

Ball stuck to feet dribble:

Good luck ever seeing that first goal in FM.

Exactly, it's just not there. There is no reason why it's not, almost make pace/acc irrelevant. I want my pacy players to do exactly this.

[dazbowski]

Messing around more last night, the players stopping dead onto a through ball is a huge issue. It's really odd, they should run onto it and shot or run onto it and the dribble to the goal.

Have also noticed you score very few goals centrally, they tend to come form angles.

[Thunda]

The ME is never going to accurately portray what's going on in the calculations in the background. Needs to be binned and a complete re-write from the ground up with a change in philosophy in how the match events are calculated and portrayed.

Players stats mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the Match Engine .. nothing .. It's why you see the Dog & Duck playing a fast, 1 touch, short passing game that would put Barca to shame .. It's why you see 20 pace / acceleration strikers not blowing fat defenders away and why your 20 jumping central defender get beat in the air with a cross into the box by a 4 foot tall, 6 year old when the calculations have decided they are going to score.

[Macha]

Back to the OP's topic, does this happen on lower league? I've seen striker stopping the ball for no reason, but occasionally defender chasing back to win the ball, but I think it works on both side. I think the ME is not capable of displaying correctly what is really happening. So far my team have several great pacy dribblers, so I don't see the issue that often.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I don't think it's that far off personally, although not perfect either obviously. Definitely agree that players should knock the ball into space when appropriate and they often look way too reluctant to burst into an obvious space in front of them, but a lot of the instances where strikers are caught by slower defenders are representative of bad first touch and lack of technical ability or a tough ball to control. I think people are too used to first touches from long punts being instant in FM like it has been in past versions whereas in reality it's incredibly difficult to control a fast looping ball over the defense. Which is why brilliant goals like this

[video=youtube;DPf-lrsAId0]

are the exception rather than the norm in reality. It needs tweaking for sure but it's an incredibly fine line because strikers being one on one with the keeper is something that rarely happens IRL and it needs to be like that in the game as well.

[bleventozturk]

I don't think it's that far off personally, although not perfect either obviously. Definitely agree that players should knock the ball into space when appropriate and they often look way too reluctant to burst into an obvious space in front of them, but a lot of the instances where strikers are caught by slower defenders are representative of bad first touch and lack of technical ability or a tough ball to control. I think people are too used to first touches from long punts being instant in FM like it has been in past versions whereas in reality it's incredibly difficult to control a fast looping ball over the defense. Which is why brilliant goals like this

[video=youtube;DPf-lrsAId0]

are the exception rather than the norm in reality. It needs tweaking for sure but it's an incredibly fine line because strikers being one on one with the keeper is something that rarely happens IRL and it needs to be like that in the game as well.

I agree. I think the problem is the ME not representing nicely what is really happening, which is wide open striker not making a good first touch and letting the defender catch up. It just doesn't look realistic in the ME, with the striker blowing a 10 yard clear distance with the defender. It looks like striker is intentionally waiting for the defenders to catch up, rather then struggling to control the ball.

The issue has been acknowledged, so the more pkm's we can find for SI to look at, the better.

[themadsheep2001]

I suggest that a refresher of the house rules is in order with particular attention to the warnings & banning section.

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/37-House-Rules-amp-Forum-Guidelines

Have removed the posts related.

If people can't post without being civil, the posts will simply be removed. Let's please stick to what is quite an interesting topic people.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Dribbling with the ball is one issue (or getting it under control) and the match engine not correctly portraying is probably right (don't tell Cougar though, he'll end up bursting through righteous indignation at the suggestion .. ) - but Treacle Running (by defenders and strikers) has been an issue in the match engine since we went 3D and is endemic of a flawed ME in my opinion. It's the engine going :

"The next pre-determined passage of play will result in ABC happening - now, we just have to fudge things to make it so when we show it to the player .. that 18 pace defender who is sprinting to the ball and who can easily cut out a through ball needs to suddenly run in treacle, otherwise the 5 pace striker won't get the chance on goal we've already decided is going to happen."

It's this type of thing, or similar silly things, that causes most frustration with people. I had a good one last night : a 30 yard back pass to the keeper. The keeper took 3 steps off his line and then just stood still. The ball rolled onwards and onwards and then stopped a yard in front of him. Did he pounce on it? Did he launch his foot through it? Or did he just stand there while a striker who'd started 30 yards away himself ran into the box, up to where the ball had stopped a yard from the keeper and tapped it into the net?

The ball was 1 yard from the keeper for a good 5 seconds and the keeper just stood there, did nothing and the striker tapped it in. Even when the ball had stopped, the striker was still outside the penalty area.

Now, to me trying to intemperate what's gone on there I came up with : The defender played a loose back pass which ended up at the feet of the striker who ran on goal and slipped it into the net but the engine calculated the wrong position where the ball should be collected by the striker and instead of portraying what actually happened, correctly, I had to face the ridiculous goal against that I witnessed (and I initially blamed the keeper - and rightly so based on what I saw).

There's a more obvious interpretation - it's a bug. Report it in the relevant forum and it might get fixed. The game doesn't determine that a goal must be scored, it calculates individual player movements and actions and displays them accordingly in match view.

[themadsheep2001]

There's a more obvious interpretation - it's a bug. Report it in the relevant forum and it might get fixed. The game doesn't determine that a goal must be scored, it calculates individual player movements and actions and displays them accordingly in match view.

Indeed. No complicated theory here, it's just a bug. Given the delicate balancing nature, the more pkms they have the better.

[thomit]

Knocking ball ahead and using pace dribble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QMTnnBUnqM

Ball stuck to feet dribble:

Good luck ever seeing that first goal in FM.

Chamberlain & Walcott have scored quite a few for me just like that, so ... I am lucky? Heck, even Podolski did one once.

[Thunda]

There's a more obvious interpretation - it's a bug. Report it in the relevant forum and it might get fixed. The game doesn't determine that a goal must be scored, it calculates individual player movements and actions and displays them accordingly in match view.

Bug reports?

We're talking things here that have been present in the match engine for years. They are reported in vast numbers year after year and nothing changes.

And, incidentally, I'm not saying goals are pre-determined - I'm saying passages of play in the nano-seconds before you see the "highlight" or the "stitched together" series of highlights that make up a full game : goal or not. Otherwise, the game couldn't determine what is a highlight or not (you can't decide to show a highlight before it's been determined it IS a highlight).

[Ellis_D]

It's a known issue. A productive way to get it resolved is to upload examples of pacy, competent dribblers being outpaced by slower carthorses.

Sorry, but I hate this kind of response. If it's a "known issue", why on earth do SI need people to "upload examples of pacy, competent dribblers being outpaced by slower carthorses"??? Why can't they just make pace and acceleration, etc, work properly?

I'm not even saying I have had this problem myself (I have never noticed it tbh), but if it is a known issue, why would SI need people to upload files? Just sort it out. Better still, don't release the game with so many flaws. I mean, it's not like they have had a year to sort all the flaws and bugs out or anything.......

[themadsheep2001]

Sorry, but I hate this kind of response. If it's a "known issue", why on earth do SI need people to "upload examples of pacy, competent dribblers being outpaced by slower carthorses"??? Why can't they just make pace and acceleration, etc, work properly?

I'm not even saying I have had this problem myself (I have never noticed it tbh), but if it is a known issue, why would SI need people to upload files? Just sort it out. Better still, don't release the game with so many flaws. I mean, it's not like they have had a year to sort all the flaws and bugs out or anything.......

. Because it's not even remotely close to being as simple as that. There is no magic line of code that "makes pace and acceleration work"

[Äktsjon Männ]

Bug reports?

We're talking things here that have been present in the match engine for years. They are reported in vast numbers year after year and nothing changes.

And, incidentally, I'm not saying goals are pre-determined - I'm saying passages of play in the nano-seconds before you see the "highlight" or the "stitched together" series of highlights that make up a full game : goal or not. Otherwise, the game couldn't determine what is a highlight or not (you can't decide to show a highlight before it's been determined it IS a highlight).

I'm sorry for being blunt but that is nonsense and shows you do not really understand how the ME works. It knows when to show highlights because all the calculations have already taken place at the start of the match or the point of tactical changes. It's not calculating it 'live', you're basically watching a replay. What you see in match view though is individual player movements and actions calculated on a second to second basis - there's no determined end result to any passage of play, it's just that you are shown the ones that have some sort of a conclusion.

[Thunda]

Alex - What is the issue with the "Treacle Runners"? I know I was reporting this (as were many others) and uploading PKMs back in 2008 (maybe even before) and yet today we still see it happen at least 10 times a game. IE, a defender running to easily intercept or collect what appears to be an aimless lump forward and then suddenly either starts running on the spot or appears to drop to walking pace (despite what the animation shows) and allows a striker from 20 yards back to nip in.

[Thunda]

I'm sorry for being blunt but that is nonsense and shows you do not really understand how the ME works. It knows when to show highlights because all the calculations have already taken place at the start of the match or the point of tactical changes. It's not calculating it 'live', you're basically watching a replay. What you see in match view though is individual player movements and actions calculated on a second to second basis - there's no determined end result to any passage of play, it's just that you are shown the ones that have some sort of a conclusion.

You're just contradicting yourself in that reply.

"It knows when to show highlights because all the calculations have already taken place"

Pre-determined.

Make changes.

Re-calculates things.

And shows you the ones that have a conclusion.

Which is exactly what I've said. And then in the nano-seconds (you say each second, I say Tomato) before you see it, it works out the passage of play you're about to see.

You've just .. ermm .. made my point for me. Thanks. I think.

[Äktsjon Männ]

You're just contradicting yourself in that reply.

"It knows when to show highlights because all the calculations have already taken place"

Pre-determined.

Make changes.

Re-calculates things.

And shows you the ones that have a conclusion.

Which is exactly what I've said. And then in the nano-seconds (you say each second, I say Tomato) before you see it, it works out the passage of play you're about to see.

You've just .. ermm .. made my point for me. Thanks. I think.

No, it works that out at the start of the match along with everything else. My point is that if it shows something stupid it's because it has calculated something stupid or the animations don't match the play (animations, not player positions or actions) - both being bugs that should be reported.

[Thunda]

No, it works that out at the start of the match along with everything else. My point is that if it shows something stupid it's because it has calculated something stupid or the animations don't match the play (animations, not player positions or actions) - both being bugs that should be reported.

It doesn't MATTER when it pre-determines it - whether it's at the beginning, after a tactical change or before a particular passage of play .. what matter is that it IS pre-determined. What that means in simplistic terms is that if it's been predetermined a shot will occur at 37 minutes by the 5 pace striker, then the ME has to graphically represent that and if that means the 20 paced defender has to run in treacle instead of intercepting the ball and lumping it clear, then in treacle he will run.

If the games we're being played "live" - like in FIFA or Pro-Evo - then issues with treacle runners wouldn't exist. They only exist (as do other "silly" things we see) because of the predetermined nature of things and that we're watching a replay and the engine sometimes has to "fudge" things to make what we see on the pitch match the pre-determined conclusion.

Yes, we could argue it's a "bug" in the portrayal of what's happening - but, it's also a consequence of the pre-determined nature of things.

Now there's a consequence to this : Players look at the match engine. They see players run in treacle, silly goalkeeping with back passes (as above) and a lot of the other silly things that happen from time to time and can't understand why and get frustrated by it. Come on here asking for help and get patronized and told "it's your tactics" .. "go learn the game" etc etc

When in truth, if the match engine accurately portrayed what was happening they might actually be able to see where their tactics let them down. Instead, they see "lazy" defenders. "Stupid" keepers.

It's for this reason, for years now, I've called for a more detailed feedback for players. Instead of being told "Billy Bob is being skinned a lot today" .. say why .. if the team is playing too narrow .. tell them .. if the opposition is playing a slow passing game - have that known to you .. etc .. then, there can be no confusion in players minds when the match engine isn't accurately showing what goes on .. or .. sort the match engine out.

[Äktsjon Männ]

But it is accurately showing what is going on! It calculates highlights along with the goals as these are connected. When that 5 pace attacker gets to the ball it is because the 20 pace defender has done something stupid. It doesn't matter which point in time the sequence was calculated because you have no direct input into active play either way. But that doesn't mean that the visual representation is random. When a player is running in treacle it is because the match engine for some reason (a bug) has calculated it like that, not because it has to show someone else getting to the ball. It's a consequence of a bug, not the pre-determined nature of anything. What you see in match view is the same thing that has been calculated behind the scenes, it's not 'fudging' things to match the conclusions.

The running in treacle thing IMO is most likely the cause of the player distance to the ball being wrongly calculated in the ME. Players don't constantly run flat out, they move fast enough to get to the ball whilst holding back as much as they can to conserve energy. Because of that it isn't as simple as a 20 pace player getting to the ball 20 minus 5 increments faster than the 5 pace player, both of those players have to have their distance to the ball calculated to determine their running speed and vector. When the calculation fails you have a player unreasonably slowing down and getting caught.

[Thunda]

Well, it's a "bug" that's been in the match engine for 6 years at least - because I went through a phase of uploading PKMs to the bug forum after nigh on every match back in 2008 .. as were many others. Yet it's still there today.

You say "bug", I say fundamental flaw in the way the match engine generates play - and we'll leave it at that.

Either way - it's problematic and SI either don't want to fix it, or can't.

[Kriss]

- and we'll leave it at that.

In that case I'll do the honours, closed as there's really nothing more to be said (at least until we have the next update)