Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[Cleon]

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to the contributors of this thread, it has really opened my eyes as to how to really read tactics.

Just a quick question, my Fleetwood team are amongst the best passers/decision makers in the league but lack any real wingers. Would anyone reckon that I will find success playing an attacking mentality (due to being the best decision makers in the league) with a 4-1-3-2 and have success, or will this just cause hollywood balls without taking advantage of my central dominance? I know I should really watch and try it myself to see my answers, but I would not mind a opinion in critique of the idea.

Depends what kind of players you have and what kind of movement they can do. Playing attacking doesn't always mean you'll play attacking football. But like anything, give it a go and see if it works. Can't say much else really because we don't know anything about how you'd set it up apart from attacking mentality and we don't know the type of players you have.

[darren1983]

Hi Darren,

I am going to give your tactic a go. My 41221 doesn't create enough at top end of the pitch unfortunately. Away games tend to be a dull battle to 0-0!

Have you finished your season as of yet? How did you get on? And do you only use the shouts you described earlier? Ie that list at the beginning and the 'shut up shop' shout if needed?

Hello mate, ended the season winning the league by 9 points, won the champions league as well. Yeah the 2 shouts I posted are the only ones I use right now, but wanting to add a couple more but not sure of their impact as yet so haven't introduced them

[darren1983]

many thanks , do you use a short passing game and in terms of the other team instructions are they set as default ? I'm using short passing ,zonal marking , drill crosses but everything else is set as default.

Yeah I use short passing, zonal, drill crosses and leave rest as default.

Should say I've not played much (2 matches) on the new patch so not sure how it'll work now

[Karnage94]

Hello all. I'm a bit late to the FM13 party and currently playing the demo whilst I wait for the full game as a Christmas present. As with any FM to find my feet I start with Manchester United and as ever I usually have a scrappy pre season whilst I try to see what different roles do in this ME. Eventually I settled on a 4-2-3-1 with a Balanced Philosophy and mainly a Control strategy however when the time comes to change it, I will. My aim is to create a fairly aggressive tactic that presses high and hard with the aim of winning the ball back as high up the pitch as possible.

I know the downsides to this so I know that getting caught on the counter will happen, but I don't mind so much. Almost like the current United side I guess

Below is a couple of screens of my tactic just so you have an idea of what I have set up here

Team Overview

Team Instructions

For now I am still undecided on what way I want my ST and AMC to operate but I'm getting goals so far so I can't complain. I can still chop and change until I'm happy. Also I'm not getting Kagawa on the left wing on the ball anywhere near as much as Valencia on the right, an example of that will be shown later.

What I will now show you is a quick example of how I do things. I played a game at home against Spurs last night. Below is how the two sides set up.

Line-Ups

What I could clearly see was that Huddlestone was going to be my main target. So I set all of the OI instructions on him and I also tightly marked, closed down and tackled hard Dembele. The strikers had a lot of pace so I just set them to weaker foot, Bale and Lennon on the flanks also to weaker foot. I don't think I did anything for the full backs although in hindsight I probably should have. The only shout I used at the start of the game was Exploit the Middle, trying to really made Huddlestone have a rough time.

Onto the game and Spurs started very well and my team couldn't quite get going. Then after 8 minutes they scored. Lennon wasn't stopped down the right, ball was played into a dangerous area. Pinball was played for a brief moment before Adebayor turned and finished. I wasn't too amused but changed nothing.

However Rooney was even less amused and 1 two footed tackle 45 seconds later left me down to 10 men. What did I change? Absolutely nothing. I always like to give it 15 minutes before I even consider a change. The upshot to Rooney's sending off is that RVP had much more room to drop deeper. Since he would partially cover the void left by Rooney, I felt a change wasn't necessary. On we go and we started to really take the game to Spurs as since they are leading away from home, they try to sit back and absorb pressure before countering. Whilst they were countering on occasion, they weren't doing a great job of stopping us going forward.

6 minutes before half time, Valencia scores a wonderful goal. From 25 yards from his own goal he picked the ball up pretty centrally and started running. Huddlestone was first up and he jinked past him on the half way line, then Kaboul was next to try and stop him. He slowed Valencia down enough for Huddlestone to get embarrassed again as another jink inside took out 2 more players. From about 20 yards out he looked up and drilled it into the bottom corner. Not a lot tactically I did there but it was what was deserved on the balance of play.

At half time I changed very little. 11 minutes into the second half some neat play in front of their back 4 eventually resulted in Rafael being released down the right. He drilled a low cross in for van Persie to tap in. Simple goal but wonderfully executed with a slow build up and a lightning quick finish.

6 minutes later van Persie scored his second. Tackles were being made in the middle of the park and Dembele had tackled Sandro but inadvertently set van Persie on his way. He had more time than what was first thought but he was slowly drifting away from goal. So he smacked one into the top corner from 25 yards out. Rapid attacks were tearing Spurs apart from all angles and I was pleased .

Phil Jones made it 4 from a near post corner header and Huddlestone canceled that out 2 minutes later from a similar situation. To shut up shop as Spurs went 4-2-4 I went Counter attacking and retained possession and passed to feet. I made a couple of subs to replace a couple of tired legs and the game finished 4-2.

The key thing I found was that sometimes changing things even when behind is not always the solution. I had faith that my tactical plan would work and despite not completely destroying Huddlestone, he didn't exert any influence on the game, finishing with 35/41 passes completed. Comparing that to my playmaker Carrick, who completed 63/72 with 3 Key Passes. All in all, a job well done

The concern I mentioned earlier was with my inside forward. I think the below screenshot will show you what I mean.

Dribbles

Admittedly, Valencia was superb in this game.

Final Screenshot showing some match stats.

Match Stats

[Brunzig]

Could somebody help me and tell me where I am going wrong? These are some screenshots from my game Ive just played.

http://imageshack.us/f/202/2012122100007.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/2012122100005.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/2012122100004.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/2012122100003.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/2012122100002.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/2012122100001f.jpg/

As far as I can see ive dominated this game but yet I still end up on the losing end. Is it my tactics, my shouts I just dont know where I am going wrong.

[lam]

1. A warm up game is a bit hard to comment on with all the changes you make and how unfamiliar with the tactic the team will be
   
2. Please post pictures in the thread (I personally hate linking to them as they open to small)
   
3. Your passes INTO the box are very very low. You need a lot more of these.
   
4. I can't tell from your screen shots what roles your team have but it looks like they are either not making runs into the box OR they are not being picked up with passes.
   

[Brunzig]

It wouldnt let me post the screenshots on the page.

GK(D)

RB(AUTO)

LB(S)

CB(D)

CB(D)

DLP(S)

DM(D)

AMC(A)

IF(A)

RW(S)

TM(S)

Should I used the shout work the ball into the box?

EDIT:

They are fluid in this tactic.

[RTHerringbone]

Could somebody help me and tell me where I am going wrong? These are some screenshots from my game Ive just played.

http://imageshack.us/f/202/2012122100007.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/2012122100005.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/2012122100004.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/2012122100003.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/2012122100002.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/2012122100001f.jpg/

As far as I can see ive dominated this game but yet I still end up on the losing end. Is it my tactics, my shouts I just dont know where I am going wrong.

You have limited movement from front to back; the fullbacks will provide some bridge between defence and midfield, but you have essentially got a whopping gap in the heart of your team. This is exacerbated by playing a balanced style with only default creative freedom and roaming.

As an absolute minimum, I would set the right fullback to attack, and set one of your DMs to a DLP on support. This will create more movement in the team.

The critical thing is how did Brighton line-up? The stats are all well and good, but we need to know more about Brighton. I couldn't make out the overall match stats screen, but it seems to imply they had 5 shots, 4 (80%) on target, whereas only half your shots were on target, so they were creating better shooting opportunities. Personally I would start with a more aggressive strategy against Brighton, at least Standard or possibly even Control.

[Brunzig]

Thanks for the advice, they used a 4-4-2 formation. What shouts should I use with a formation like the one I am using?

[Cleon]

Thanks for the advice, they used a 4-4-2 formation. What shouts should I use with a formation like the one I am using?

Please take the time to re-read the whole thread. It's clear from your questions that you don't understand it at all. Either that or you've not read it

[RTHerringbone]

Playing a 4-4-2, there is no need to play two DM roles, as they have no AMC roles to worry about.

I would move your DMs to MC positions (a more conventional 4-2-3-1), maybe one as DLP (S) and one as a BWM.

There are two options I use with shouts against a 4-4-2; play narrower and exploit the middle will compress play in the centre, and if you outnumber them 5 to 2, there will only be one winner.

An alternative is to play wider and exploit the middle, with the idea being that you stretch their MCs and can then power through the gap.

[Cleon]

Hello all. I'm a bit late to the FM13 party and currently playing the demo whilst I wait for the full game as a Christmas present. As with any FM to find my feet I start with Manchester United and as ever I usually have a scrappy pre season whilst I try to see what different roles do in this ME. Eventually I settled on a 4-2-3-1 with a Balanced Philosophy and mainly a Control strategy however when the time comes to change it, I will. My aim is to create a fairly aggressive tactic that presses high and hard with the aim of winning the ball back as high up the pitch as possible.

I know the downsides to this so I know that getting caught on the counter will happen, but I don't mind so much. Almost like the current United side I guess

Below is a couple of screens of my tactic just so you have an idea of what I have set up here

Team Overview

Team Instructions

For now I am still undecided on what way I want my ST and AMC to operate but I'm getting goals so far so I can't complain. I can still chop and change until I'm happy. Also I'm not getting Kagawa on the left wing on the ball anywhere near as much as Valencia on the right, an example of that will be shown later.

What I will now show you is a quick example of how I do things. I played a game at home against Spurs last night. Below is how the two sides set up.

Line-Ups

What I could clearly see was that Huddlestone was going to be my main target. So I set all of the OI instructions on him and I also tightly marked, closed down and tackled hard Dembele. The strikers had a lot of pace so I just set them to weaker foot, Bale and Lennon on the flanks also to weaker foot. I don't think I did anything for the full backs although in hindsight I probably should have. The only shout I used at the start of the game was Exploit the Middle, trying to really made Huddlestone have a rough time.

Onto the game and Spurs started very well and my team couldn't quite get going. Then after 8 minutes they scored. Lennon wasn't stopped down the right, ball was played into a dangerous area. Pinball was played for a brief moment before Adebayor turned and finished. I wasn't too amused but changed nothing.

However Rooney was even less amused and 1 two footed tackle 45 seconds later left me down to 10 men. What did I change? Absolutely nothing. I always like to give it 15 minutes before I even consider a change. The upshot to Rooney's sending off is that RVP had much more room to drop deeper. Since he would partially cover the void left by Rooney, I felt a change wasn't necessary. On we go and we started to really take the game to Spurs as since they are leading away from home, they try to sit back and absorb pressure before countering. Whilst they were countering on occasion, they weren't doing a great job of stopping us going forward.

6 minutes before half time, Valencia scores a wonderful goal. From 25 yards from his own goal he picked the ball up pretty centrally and started running. Huddlestone was first up and he jinked past him on the half way line, then Kaboul was next to try and stop him. He slowed Valencia down enough for Huddlestone to get embarrassed again as another jink inside took out 2 more players. From about 20 yards out he looked up and drilled it into the bottom corner. Not a lot tactically I did there but it was what was deserved on the balance of play.

At half time I changed very little. 11 minutes into the second half some neat play in front of their back 4 eventually resulted in Rafael being released down the right. He drilled a low cross in for van Persie to tap in. Simple goal but wonderfully executed with a slow build up and a lightning quick finish.

6 minutes later van Persie scored his second. Tackles were being made in the middle of the park and Dembele had tackled Sandro but inadvertently set van Persie on his way. He had more time than what was first thought but he was slowly drifting away from goal. So he smacked one into the top corner from 25 yards out. Rapid attacks were tearing Spurs apart from all angles and I was pleased .

Phil Jones made it 4 from a near post corner header and Huddlestone canceled that out 2 minutes later from a similar situation. To shut up shop as Spurs went 4-2-4 I went Counter attacking and retained possession and passed to feet. I made a couple of subs to replace a couple of tired legs and the game finished 4-2.

The key thing I found was that sometimes changing things even when behind is not always the solution. I had faith that my tactical plan would work and despite not completely destroying Huddlestone, he didn't exert any influence on the game, finishing with 35/41 passes completed. Comparing that to my playmaker Carrick, who completed 63/72 with 3 Key Passes. All in all, a job well done

The concern I mentioned earlier was with my inside forward. I think the below screenshot will show you what I mean.

Dribbles

Admittedly, Valencia was superb in this game.

Final Screenshot showing some match stats.

Match Stats

You could do what SFrazer used to do and change the roles depending on what team you are playing etc, like in his Meet The System thread.

Great post btw

[Karnage94]

You could do what SFrazer used to do and change the roles depending on what team you are playing etc, like in his Meet The System thread.

Great post btw

Cheers Cleon. Yeah I think being a bit flexible with the roles probably will help me out, as long as I try to be logical with my changes. At this stage its very much trial and error but I think I now know what sort of behaviour I want from my players so I can slowly develop the system that I want.

[Brunzig]

Playing a 4-4-2, there is no need to play two DM roles, as they have no AMC roles to worry about.

I would move your DMs to MC positions (a more conventional 4-2-3-1), maybe one as DLP (S) and one as a BWM.

There are two options I use with shouts against a 4-4-2; play narrower and exploit the middle will compress play in the centre, and if you outnumber them 5 to 2, there will only be one winner.

An alternative is to play wider and exploit the middle, with the idea being that you stretch their MCs and can then power through the gap.

OK I replayed the game and made the changes you suggested and drew 3-3 but I still didnt get many passes into the box.

[Dr. Hook]

You could do what SFrazer used to do and change the roles depending on what team you are playing etc, like in his Meet The System thread.

Great post btw

That's actually the approach that I have taken in the last couple weeks with my Livi team. Against teams with a creative midfielder focal point, I switch my DM to an anchor man, and against two man midfields I turn a CM into a BWM etc. It works well, generally. I'd also like to give props to Karnage for this:

The key thing I found was that sometimes changing things even when behind is not always the solution.

I have also found this to be very true. A goal is sometimes scored despite your best efforts and through no failing of the system: the other teams have good players too! I like to follow Corporal Jones' advice "Don't Panic." Anyway, glad to see the thread alive. It has been helpful in so many ways.

[RTHerringbone]

OK I replayed the game and made the changes you suggested and drew 3-3 but I still didnt get many passes into the box.

It's preseason. Your team needs to learn the tactics. You can't switch from a deep 4-2-3-1 to a standard 4-2-3-1 just before a game and expect your players to immediately "know" how to play.

With regard to passes into the box, have you looked at the analysis tab to see who is passing, where or how?

You have one winger crossing into the box, it may be beneficial to change a fullback to a wingback to get the same.

I can't remember what an AMC tends to do, but by being on attack, he will be more inclined to get into the box, rather than just feed the forward.

[Cleon]

OK I replayed the game and made the changes you suggested and drew 3-3 but I still didnt get many passes into the box.

I'll come across as been an arse here but replaying games is a no no. If you are going to do that, please go elsewhere this thread is not for things like that.

It would also help if you read the thread, I'm still not sure you have with the questions you keep asking. You also don't seem to give anything time to work.

Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes its needed.

That's actually the approach that I have taken in the last couple weeks with my Livi team. Against teams with a creative midfielder focal point, I switch my DM to an anchor man, and against two man midfields I turn a CM into a BWM etc. It works well, generally. I'd also like to give props to Karnage for this:

The key thing I found was that sometimes changing things even when behind is not always the solution.

I have also found this to be very true. A goal is sometimes scored despite your best efforts and through no failing of the system: the other teams have good players too! I like to follow Corporal Jones' advice "Don't Panic." Anyway, glad to see the thread alive. It has been helpful in so many ways.

Quite a few people panic change. I always look at the manner I go behind. If I'm playing well and go behind then I'll still play the same way because it does happen, you can play well and still be losing like you mention. If I went behind and was playing poor, then I'd be likely to change something straight away.

[Dannytoffee]

Thanks Cleon for another person re-invigorated with the game. Read through your original posts and realised that this was an almost perfect setup for Everton who were already blessed with a relatively high number of technically gifted players. 2 years in and I've finished second in the league two years in a row and got to semi's of Europe each time too. Nearly there!

Spent serious time trying to find the right person up front to really exploit this tactic and after wasting £30m on Rossi last season had a brain wave at the end of last season and realised the man I'm looking for has been hiding in my team all along! Who's that sat at DM? Why it's Marouanne Fellaini!! Having great fun converting him into a Trequartista extraordinaire! He's got all the technical competencies you could want combined with his sheer physical size that means those high crosses finally have someone to connect with. He's doing a fantastic job setting up the IFs of Nem, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain (god knows why Arsenal let me have them both for under £10m each!). When I need to change it up Walcott himself plays well in the Treq role where he spends half his time setting others up and half his time grabbing the ball from deep and running rings round the opposition before burying it in a corner with power.

Thanks again

[Brunzig]

I'll come across as been an arse here but replaying games is a no no. If you are going to do that, please go elsewhere this thread is not for things like that.

It would also help if you read the thread, I'm still not sure you have with the questions you keep asking. You also don't seem to give anything time to work.

Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes its needed.

Quite a few people panic change. I always look at the manner I go behind. If I'm playing well and go behind then I'll still play the same way because it does happen, you can play well and still be losing like you mention. If I went behind and was playing poor, then I'd be likely to change something straight away.

Apologies for that I don't tend to reply games at all, I am just getting more and more frustrated with this years game. There are somethings I dont understand this is correct, I am however trying to learn and understand them.

[lam]

Brunzig,

There is a wealth of information in this thread and whilst it might not be sufficient enough for everyone to learn the response rate has been fantastic, so it's clearly working for most.

Some of the questions you are asking have been addressed in the thread previously, hence you can understand why it appears that you have not read the entire thread and at 820 posts.... it is quite some undertaking but if you take the time to read through it, I am sure you will get the answers you want.

Also, if you read through, you can quote someone and say "THIS IS THE BIT I DON'T UNDERSTAND" and it will be clearer for everyone who wants to help.

Regards

LAM

[Chris2509]

I have a little question.

I play with Torino a classic 4-4-2. One BWM, one CM (support), two wingers (support), Target man (attack) and poacher.

I want to play quite defensive and attack down both flanks. Which passing style would suit my tactic? Short or direct?

[RTHerringbone]

I have a little question.

I play with Torino a classic 4-4-2. One BWM, one CM (support), two wingers (support), Target man (attack) and poacher.

I want to play quite defensive and attack down both flanks. Which passing style would suit my tactic? Short or direct?

Direct by my reckoning. Use of the flanks and a Target Man generally suits more direct football.

[Chris2509]

Direct by my reckoning. Use of the flanks and a Target Man generally suits more direct football.

Ok. The default tempo for direct passes is the first notch of normal...should I set it to high or is it ok like that?

And what about time wasting? It's set to often by default. Will it work with direct passes?

[RTHerringbone]

Ok. The default tempo for direct passes is the first notch of normal...should I set it to high or is it ok like that?

And what about time wasting? It's set to often by default. Will it work with direct passes?

I steer firmly clear of touching sliders, as I don't know enough to be sure that any changes I make won't knacker the balance elsewhere.

A defensive strategy will time waste, are you a low to mid-range team in your division? A counter strategy can be very effective, isn't as defensive as it sounds, and lends itself to direct passing.

[tommonufc]

...

Haven't got round to replying until now, but those couple of posts were a massive help, so many thanks

First of all changed my strategy to counter from defensive. I'd been using defensive after having good success with my previous Newcastle side, but looking back now this was helped by having top players, and so trying to replicate the exact thing with Southampton wasn't possible. So changed that to Counter which obviously helped me be that bit more attacking in possession and not concede to much ground without the ball.

Towards the end of the season I changed from Very Rigid, to standard, and then onto Very Fluid. My initial thinking was that I wanted my diamond to be a defined left, right, top and bottom, and not move into each others areas too much; but after eventually moving to a very fluid set-up it seemed to be a completely different system. My full backs now saw a lot more of the ball, higher up the field and the passing through my midfield was still short and numerous, but a lot more threatening.

Defensively I struggled previously with the opponents full backs. They still saw their fair share of the ball, and I conceded this was always to happen - but was always careful to see how much of the ball the full games in each game where having of the ball in the first 15mins before taking more drastic action. The only OI I would use would be tight marking and close down on the two full backs. Against the tougher teams, I'd revert from the diamond, and play with wingers as to give my a better shape in defense.

After turning the corner in terms of how I set-up the system with Southampton, and after bringing in a few faces for the first team in the January window I was maintaining great form, which if made from the start of the campaign would have seen me challenge for top-four.

[Rashidi]

I steer firmly clear of touching sliders, as I don't know enough to be sure that any changes I make won't knacker the balance elsewhere.

A defensive strategy will time waste, are you a low to mid-range team in your division? A counter strategy can be very effective, isn't as defensive as it sounds, and lends itself to direct passing.

I am actually enjoying the patch..I havent touched anything in game beyond start end...no slider, no tweaking..everything on commentary

[Falahk]

Could somebody help me and tell me where I am going wrong? These are some screenshots from my game Ive just played.

http://imageshack.us/f/202/2012122100007.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/2012122100005.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/2012122100004.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/2012122100003.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/2012122100002.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/2012122100001f.jpg/

As far as I can see ive dominated this game but yet I still end up on the losing end. Is it my tactics, my shouts I just dont know where I am going wrong.

having looked at your tactic it seams like you have tried to mash in as many different ideas you have collected from many different places into one tactic, that might not all be compatible with each other, if I was to compare it to a real life set up it looks like you are trying to tell your team to play a bit like Rayo Vallecano but with a false nine stuck in there for no reason, and not really going all in for that style in order to make it work

[mr. president]

Great post. I learnt a lot.

I'm playing in the same formation and my wingers don't cut inside enough. i noticed you play with a left footed as the left winger (IF) and right footed as right winger. Do you think it's better than playing with right footed as a left winger (If) with cut inside instruction?

would you prefer Bale or Neymar as AML (IF)?

[Sleepydude]

Great post. I learnt a lot.

I'm playing in the same formation and my wingers don't cut inside enough. i noticed you play with a left footed as the left winger (IF) and right footed as right winger. Do you think it's better than playing with right footed as a left winger (If) with cut inside instruction?

would you prefer Bale or Neymar as AML (IF)?

Personally I like to vary my attacks a bit, so I'll play either two left footed or two right footed players on the wings. That way one will naturally cut inside more to his stronger foot and the other one (with high crossing ability) will go outside more and whip in some crosses.

[Falahk]

Personally I like to vary my attacks a bit, so I'll play either two left footed or two right footed players on the wings. That way one will naturally cut inside more to his stronger foot and the other one (with high crossing ability) will go outside more and whip in some crosses.

I do more or less the same thing, playing ether 2 left footed IF's or two right footed IF's, but I also put the wide play on normal for both IF's, this means that they will follow there strong foot a bit more and that one of them will act a bit more like a winger while the other one cut inside

this also means that I dont need to make any changes at all to my tactic in order to accomodate different types of strong foots, and also that I can make changes to how my team play just by moving players around or by using different players for the same role

[nick1408]

Great post. I learnt a lot.

I'm playing in the same formation and my wingers don't cut inside enough. i noticed you play with a left footed as the left winger (IF) and right footed as right winger. Do you think it's better than playing with right footed as a left winger (If) with cut inside instruction?

would you prefer Bale or Neymar as AML (IF)?

I was wondering about the footedness as well but didn't want to ask in case it had already been asked somewhere in the last 9 pages (i.e. tl;dr). I noticed in the OP Wellington Nem was on the left (left footer). I am sure Cleon has some reason for it. Maybe the left footers cross rather than dribble to the centre? Not sure.

[Cleon]

I was wondering about the footedness as well but didn't want to ask in case it had already been asked somewhere in the last 9 pages (i.e. tl;dr). I noticed in the OP Wellington Nem was on the left (left footer). I am sure Cleon has some reason for it. Maybe the left footers cross rather than dribble to the centre? Not sure.

Just above the picture you are on about, it does say not to take notice as it's just for illustration purposes only

Both ways have pros and cons though. I just select the best player for the role rather than over focus on footedness and just select my best team.

[nick1408]

Just above the picture you are on about, it does say not to take notice as it's just for illustration purposes only

Both ways have pros and cons though. I just select the best player for the role rather than over focus on footedness and just select my best team.

Apologies, I missed that. I read the OP about 3 times to fully understand what was going on and missed that each time.

[Piav86]

Hi Cleon, you say you use the 7 shouts to start most games. If you then are struggling to win possession are you adding shouts and having 9 in operation?

Many thanks.

[Piav86]

My problem seems to be when having to change things around. For example using the tactic in the OP I had won 6 in a row playing some beautiful football. I'm playing as Everton and made a few signings having sold my big players to generate cash. Even so not every player is suited 100% but it's working.

Stoke (h) 2-1

Hartlepool (a) 2-1 Cup

Norwich (a) 2-1

Sunderland (h) 3-0

QPR (h) 1-0

Wigan (h) 2-0 Cup

This all with only really rotating the players slightly. Now a really tough game comes up against Spurs away which I know will be tough. I end up 2-0 down with 70 played. I haven't got a clue what to do now in an attempt to get one back. Keeping it the same isn't the answer as I don't want to keep the ball and don't want to sit back and counter. Help!

[Brunzig]

Hello, right after reading this thread twice over today I have started to understand alittle more about the way tactics work etc. I decided to put it into practice, my first game was against Barca and I lost 2-0 but......Barca went down to 10 men in the first half (they where already 2-0 up) so I checked what shape they moved to and they went to 3 and the back, so I then used the shouts play wider and exploit the flanks, I also went to an attacking style.

Did I do the right thing? I am guessing I did as they only had 3 and the back which would allow me to get down the flanks more often.

[Karnage94]

Hello, right after reading this thread twice over today I have started to understand alittle more about the way tactics work etc. I decided to put it into practice, my first game was against Barca and I lost 2-0 but......Barca went down to 10 men in the first half (they where already 2-0 up) so I checked what shape they moved to and they went to 3 and the back, so I then used the shouts play wider and exploit the flanks, I also went to an attacking style.

Did I do the right thing? I am guessing I did as they only had 3 and the back which would allow me to get down the flanks more often.

If you were getting men into the box and had capable crossers then yes I think you went about it the right way. All depends on the personnel you have. There is little point I feel in trying to exploit the flanks vs a back 3 if you're wide players are just cutting inside of course. Sometimes your intentions and idea might be spot on but the players might not be best suited to executing them.

I found it very difficult at times when playing FM12 with my Tenerife against teams with a back 3 because my team wasn't naturally good at stretching the play wide and getting crosses in.

[mixmkz]

I am just wondering if DLF on support in a single striker formation is still the way to go now with the latest patch?

With very good wingers my play tend not to build through to middle anymore and my striker have not had one through ball to run onto since the patch. Also on average my striker makes ~20 or less passes a game in games where they don't score, they dont even get to crack off a shot. Now my inside forward ties for most goals along with my main striker.

I play 4-2-3-1 denmark and my wingers are IF-A (neymar) and W-S (some 5* regen with 20 acc, 20 pace I got for 900k. Yes, he has more potential than neymar).

[The Dandy Dons]

Quick question. I am struggling to get the ball to my striker in a 4-2-3-1 and I think the main issue is the distribution from midfield. It is becoming quite common for me to have 60-65% of the ball and the midfielders to rack up 60 odd passes each while struggling to make a key pass. Do you need some screenshots, or is there anything I can quickly give a shot?

[lam]

........so I then used the shouts play wider and exploit the flanks, I also went to an attacking style....

I would definately have exploited the flanks, but whether or not I would have 'played wider' would depend on the rest of their formation and who you are.

If they had a narrow formation then I'd have stayed the same, if they were fairly wide too, then I wouldhave done the same.

[RvP20]

Is having someone playing in the DM position a necessity to have any hope of acheving success against the likes of Barcelona? Do you reckon a 4-2-2-2 (two CMs, AML and AMR + strikers) is leaving a team way too exposed defensively?

[Cleon]

Is having someone playing in the DM position a necessity to have any hope of acheving success against the likes of Barcelona? Do you reckon a 4-2-2-2 (two CMs, AML and AMR + strikers) is leaving a team way too exposed defensively?

Anything that doesn't have a DMC is not as stable as a tactic with one. This goes for tactics in real life too. You can get away without using one but if the opposition uses an AMC then you'll find he'll have a lot of space and time and can dictate the game if you don't close him down and limit his space. That's why a DMC is important in this instance.

However if you don't use a DMC it frees up a player to play higher up the pitch....which from an attacking point is always better but not defensivley. It's catch 22 really and you'll have to find something that suits how you play.

[Sleepydude]

So I'm still using a 4-1-2-2-1 formation for most of my games and I'm toying with the idea of moving my DLP (in the CM position) down to the DM position, to create a Pirlo-type role. Then perhaps use a BWM or a CM(d) in central midfield. Has anybody had any success with this?

edit: the reasoning behind this is that by having a BWM higher up the pitch I would be able to win possession back faster in more dangerous positions.

[Cleon]

So I'm still using a 4-1-2-2-1 formation for most of my games and I'm toying with the idea of moving my DLP (in the CM position) down to the DM position, to create a Pirlo-type role. Then perhaps use a BWM or a CM(d) in central midfield. Has anybody had any success with this?

edit: the reasoning behind this is that by having a BWM higher up the pitch I would be able to win possession back faster in more dangerous positions.

Aye I spoke about doing this earlier in the thread for the same reasons. Works really well.

Who you playing as?

[Falahk]

Is having someone playing in the DM position a necessity to have any hope of acheving success against the likes of Barcelona? Do you reckon a 4-2-2-2 (two CMs, AML and AMR + strikers) is leaving a team way too exposed defensively?

the way I see it, the formation you discrib have all the weaknesses of a 4-2-3-1 and none of the benefits (the midfield control an extra midfielder offer, control that allow you to push the wide players higher up), and it does not have the same defensive solidity as a flat 4-4-2 offer with the deeper wide players

[5uare2]

This is related to FM12, but despite the different match engine I'm hoping that it's still applicable.

I'd previously used wwfan's Barca tactic with lots of success, so it was interesting to see Cleon's (slightly different) version of it; and the discussion in this thread has made me understand a lot about it that hadn't occurred to me before.

It's interesting to see you use the "Run at Defence" shout - the Inside Forwards already run with ball often, so the only effect it would have is increase the TQ's run with ball, correct? That suits the Spurs squad, especially Defoe (because I was surprised to see that you'd managed to get success with him as a TQ, but then I understood that the shout would have played a big part). I never used it with Liverpool (Kuyt was my TQ), but I might consider it if I ever find myself with a potential TQ with good dribbling ability.

Another reason, IMO, for this tactic's defensive solidity, are the "run from deep" settings - with the two CB's, the DM (defend) and the DLP all on "rarely", you guarantee yourself a very solid central defensive 'core', much like what you get in a 4-2-3-1, allowing the rest of the team to get forward (except of course the TQ). Just something I hadn't seen mentioned which I thought was worth considering when people are building their own tactics, because looking at the run from deep settings across a team is great to ensure you aren't vulnerable to counter-attacks.

One question: Cleon, you man-marked Barca's midfielders out of the game, but what would you do if an opponent man-marked your Advanced Playmaker out of a game? Just had this happen while managing Ajax in the Johan Cruiff Schaal against PSV. Noticed at halftime that Lodeiro, my AP, only had 13 passes attempted (with 7 completed, others blocked) while the rest of the team had 25-30. I won comfortably anyway, but just wondering whether anyone has ideas on how to combat this?

[Cleon]

It's interesting to see you use the "Run at Defence" shout - the Inside Forwards already run with ball often, so the only effect it would have is increase the TQ's run with ball, correct? That suits the Spurs squad, especially Defoe (because I was surprised to see that you'd managed to get success with him as a TQ, but then I understood that the shout would have played a big part). I never used it with Liverpool (Kuyt was my TQ), but I might consider it if I ever find myself with a potential TQ with good dribbling ability.

The shout does play a bit part when its used I guess. But Defoe plays the role just as good without that shout active. I tend to look at roles and then try and get players who offer something different while playing the role. For me the role is more important than the player.

One question: Cleon, you man-marked Barca's midfielders out of the game, but what would you do if an opponent man-marked your Advanced Playmaker out of a game? Just had this happen while managing Ajax in the Johan Cruiff Schaal against PSV. Noticed at halftime that Lodeiro, my AP, only had 13 passes attempted (with 7 completed, others blocked) while the rest of the team had 25-30. I won comfortably anyway, but just wondering whether anyone has ideas on how to combat this?

I'm currently Ajax too

PSV play the narrow 4321?

Are you sure he was man marked out of the game and not just crowded out by the opposition? Meaning your players didn't see him as a passing option? Was he the reason why you won comfortable? Did the opposition double up on him trying to keep him out of the game, meaning you had a spare man?

[kazm]

Thanks for the thread, it really changed the way i am playing this game.

From a plugandplaytacticdownloader (thats a word) i now make my own tactic and try to understand why stuff (doesnt) work.

Ive started a game with all scandinavian countries selected, i see it as a 'themed' savegame. Took Lyngby in Danish first division. They are strongest in the league tho i picked them for their good youth academy.

Used a 4-1-2-2-1 with attacking wingbacks, 2 ifs and a dmc anchorman. Granted they were strongest in the league but im still pretty happy with gaining promotion. It is something i couldnt have done a week ago . Another cool thing: my first 14 matches against teams playing 442 i scored 38 and concede 2 .

Now i am in 2nd season in Danish SuperLiga, went from best by far to worst by far. On the comparison screen i am worst or 1 of worst in most attributes (passing, decisions, first touch, determination, etc)

First 15 games i just couldnt score, my top scorer had 2 goals ^^, we didnt concede a lot though' mainly cause my star defender (20yo) has the highest rating in the league and i got a 5star pa dmc first season as a regen .

After first 15 games i changed strikers and literally the first game after that we won 4-0 with the new striker scoring 4 times O_o.

After that things went a bit better, we still suck but we are out of relegation zone.

I am sure other people wouldve done better but for me it feels like an accomplishment

So yeah thanks again for this thread!

[5uare2]

But Defoe plays the role just as good without that shout active. I tend to look at roles and then try and get players who offer something different while playing the role. For me the role is more important than the player.

Interesting. I've never used Defoe much, but never pinned him as being able to properly play the TQ role - even if you say the role is more important than the player, there's obviously going to be players who just aren't capable of a certain role. Still, I might try the system with Liverpool again and use the "Run at Defence" shout when Suarez is TQ, see how he does - his "gets forward whenever possible PPM" is a pain, though, so I tend to unlearn that before I use him there.

I'm currently Ajax too

PSV play the narrow 4321?

Yeah, excellent squad, especially for different TQ options.

Surprisingly, no, they used a standard 4-4-2 (should've mentioned that).

Are you sure he was man marked out of the game and not just crowded out by the opposition? Meaning your players didn't see him as a passing option? Was he the reason why you won comfortable? Did the opposition double up on him trying to keep him out of the game, meaning you had a spare man?

I don't think they doubled up on him so much as just man-marked him out of the game; I imagine that if they'd doubled up on him, my DLP Anita would have had an inflated pass count on account of being freed up. And when I watched his blocked passes it generally didn't look as if he had more than one man on or around him. But some good questions, it's given me something to think about - I'll have to go back and re-watch the match to assess whether their focus on him freed up the other players (Eriksen assisted both goals, one from LW and one from RW - the second one was a gorgeous through ball, similar to the Bale goal you posted earlier in the thread. I might keep him on the RW for a few more games to see how he goes, even if he won't be cutting in on his stronger foot). If he was the reason we won, then I wouldn't mind him being marked out of every game

[kazm]

Couldnt it be that was because of how high your team was pushed up relative to their team?

If he was mainly between the 2 mcs he might have been hard to reach, pushing up so he will operate between the defensive line and the midfield line might have helped. (or dropping a bit deeper depending on how you both were pushed up)