A Twelve Step Guide towards Playing FM13 & Understanding the ME

[jujigatame]

That is exactly the kind of thing that you should stop thinking right away.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Let's look at it this way. If IRL, you had control over Arsenal for a day, and you did nothing more than pick a starting 11 and tell them what positions they were playing with no further instructions, do you think they'd still beat Bradford over 50% of the time? Honest question.

[jujigatame]

Tackles are far too frequent and tackling is absolutely overpowered in game currently (13.1.3). Check real life stats at whoscored and compare them to in game numbers since latest patch. My central defenders average above 8 tackles per game (with success rate above 90%) since update and it is very similar in AI vs AI matches. Interception are way off, top defenders in game average above 10 interception per game in league fixtures and above 9 in continental competitions!

This could be a case of passing not being accurate enough, rather than a case of defenders being too good at interceptions. I still see a fair amount of inexplicable passes that seem to go straight at opposing players.

[TitouCythe]

Not too sure about a couple of these. Always set at least one defender to attack? CBs generally can't be set to attack so I assume you're referring to fullbacks, and I generally avoid setting them to attack because I don't want to get shredded by counter-attacking wingers. Also, always set a lone striker to support? If I'm using advanced wingers I want the striker leading the line and getting on the end of crosses, don't I? I'd think a support duty for a lone striker could potentially conflict with the role of an AM or AP.

I tried to put a WB/A. Guess what happened ^^ Except it was not the winger who was left unmarked

[Matt ex SEGA]

Question regarding this:

4: Focus on roles and duties in the TC. Make sure you have one Attack duty in defence, one Attack and one Defend in midfield, and one Support in attack (especially if you have a lone FC). Make sure you have at least one no-nonsense, hard-working midfielder role. If you want to use a PM, will he be in the best position to hurt players, or will your approach see him isolated (see point eleven).

What's the definition of "Attack" and "Midfield" here - so for example if you play a 4-2-3-1 with a lone striker, two wingers and an AMC, two MC's and 4 at the back - who is "attack" and who is "midfield" amongst them?

Ta...

[Ackter]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Let's look at it this way. If IRL, you had control over Arsenal for a day, and you did nothing more than pick a starting 11 and tell them what positions they were playing with no further instructions, do you think they'd still beat Bradford over 50% of the time? Honest question.

No, they wouldn't.

Having Arsene Wenger in charge and actually giving proper tactical instructions doesn't guarantee they'd beat bradford over 50% of the time either.

[jujigatame]

Yea personally I keep my fullbacks in support duty. I want them firing in crosses when they can, but I don't really want them dribbling in towards the six-yard box frequently if at all.

[jujigatame]

No, they wouldn't.

Having Arsene Wenger in charge and actually giving proper tactical instructions doesn't guarantee they'd beat bradford over 50% of the time either.

That's a strange response. Of course nothing "guarantees" a win. I'm asking what you think the probability of a win is in that case. 50%? Over/under?

[milnerpoint]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Let's look at it this way. If IRL, you had control over Arsenal for a day, and you did nothing more than pick a starting 11 and tell them what positions they were playing with no further instructions, do you think they'd still beat Bradford over 50% of the time? Honest question.

A team with no real preparation, no real tactics, very little instuctions and no home work done against the opposition will always struggle against a team well oiled, and extremely motivated. So no, i wouldnt expect to just turn up and win because my players are better, its exactly that kinda thought that has lead to countless examples of shock results over the years. Even Man Utd will scout a lower league team before they play them and make sure their team is properly prepared to play.

[Ackter]

Depends on far too many things to put a simple percentage on it.

In recent history I believe the instances of Stevenage beating Manchester United, for example, are 100%

[Sancho Panza]

Ok, Im the one who first said that if you play as Arsenal and chose a default formation you should beat Bradford at home 9 times out of ten. Maybe my point was taken to literal. What I mean is, the quality of my players as Arsenal should mean more than my tactic on average. I believe a team like Arsenal, Manu, Chelsea playing a average formation should beat a team like Bradford more often that not IN FOOTBALL MANAGER. In real life, there are many more things a manager can do to insure victory than we can in the game. That is why I feel the default formations and tactics should be enough to pick up and play against weak teams and beat them consistently. Currently, even beating a lower Premier League team is very hard.

[smallclone]

Ok, Im the one who first said that if you play as Arsenal and chose a default formation you should beat Bradford at home 9 times out of ten. Maybe my point was taken to literal. What I mean is, the quality of my players as Arsenal should mean more than my tactic on average. I believe a team like Arsenal, Manu, Chelsea playing a average formation should beat a team like Bradford more often that not IN FOOTBALL MANAGER. In real life, there are many more things a manager can do to insure victory than we can in the game. That is why I feel the default formations and tactics should be enough to pick up and play against weak teams and beat them consistently. Currently, even beating a lower Premier League team is very hard.

Totally agree. As my Monaco save on standard 442 showed. And my Zenit save. And my Porto save.

[BiggusD]

Tackles are far too frequent and tackling is absolutely overpowered in game currently (13.1.3). Check real life stats at WhoScored?com and compare them to in game numbers since latest patch. My central defenders average above 8 tackles per game (with success rate above 90%) since update and it is very similar in AI vs AI matches. Interception are way off, top defenders in game average above 10 interception per game in league fixtures and above 9 in continental competitions!

Depends on how you define "tackle". Sliding tackle or hurling-yourself-into-a-shot block tackles are few and far between in professional football yes. If you define it as any body contact depriving an opponent of control of the ball, then 8-10 a game is far far too few. Adding those two stats together, 10 tackles and 10 interceptions, a defender or midfielder having a good defensive game in FM13 manages to rob an opponent of the ball once every 3 minutes. If you add aerial challenges, 10 more - once every 2 minutes. I think that sounds about right yes?

So it all depends on what is an aerial challenge, a tackle and an interception in FM13 compared to real life.

[Ackter]

God, you two really just want a win button don't you?

[jujigatame]

Depends on far too many things to put a simple percentage on it.

In recent history I believe the instances of Stevenage beating Manchester United, for example, are 100%

Well that's exactly why I was trying to put a probability on it, because anything can happen in a single match.

I tend to think Arsenal wins more often than not even in that extreme case. Players are not automatons, they know the game and have spent the better part of their lives on the pitch. Players like Vermaelen and Koscielny don't forget how to defend in the absence of Arsene Wenger, nor does Cazorla forget how to pick out passes and distribute the ball, nor does Gervinho forget how to dribble and cross.

[Ackter]

Why do you think Arsene Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho etc get the huge money?

It's not likely to be based on their ability to say "right lads, no match prep needed. Go out there and win."

[wwfan]

But after several years of trying to put theory into practice, does Wilson's distinction translate to coherent tactics in the ME? Even if you use more generic roles, "Fluid" and "Very Fluid" will result in no mentality gap among players in the same position, minimizing the effect of duties. More importantly, is the ME sophisticated enough for universal mentality settings to actually result in interchanging roles/duties or does it simply lead to situations (such as we saw with prior incarnations of the AI 4231 Denmark) where are all players in the midfield are doing the exact same thing at all times as opposed to taking up necessary duties in reaction to match events?

Duties only relate to RFD instructions, not mentality, with the exception of the Balanced Philosophy. RFD (or FWRs) is one of the most important instructions in the game. From what I can tell, Wilson's theories interpret very well. I don't think the AI interprets them that accurately yet though. For example, I think Barca should play between Very Rigid and Balanced, defaulting to a Counter strategy (won't go into the reasons. There's a thread in the Tactics Forum that explains.). I don't think the AI interprets things that way.

[Ackter]

And when that happens, the real​ complaining will start...

[macca72]

One of the other steps to the 12 point plan might be "Don't pay that much attention to what happens in pre-season". I know of at least 3 people who throw potentially good base tactics away because they struggle over 3-4 games in pre-season.

[jujigatame]

Why do you think Arsene Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho etc get the huge money?

It's not likely to be based on their ability to say "right lads, no match prep needed. Go out there and win."

Of course I don't think that, but when there's a huge gulf in quality (like Arsenal vs. a League 2 side, or Real vs. a Segunda B side) I tend to think guys like Mourinho and Wenger aren't crafting particularly intricate tactical plans for those matches.

[Ackter]

Then you'd be quite wrong.

[Govnar1]

This could be a case of passing not being accurate enough, rather than a case of defenders being too good at interceptions. I still see a fair amount of inexplicable passes that seem to go straight at opposing players.

It's mostly down to lack of movement in my opinion.

Depends on how you define "tackle".

Unfortunately we don't have adequate tools to analyses general structure of tackles in league so official SI response would be very helpful. Still number of interceptions is way off.

[wwfan]

Question regarding this:

4: Focus on roles and duties in the TC. Make sure you have one Attack duty in defence, one Attack and one Defend in midfield, and one Support in attack (especially if you have a lone FC). Make sure you have at least one no-nonsense, hard-working midfielder role. If you want to use a PM, will he be in the best position to hurt players, or will your approach see him isolated (see point eleven).

What's the definition of "Attack" and "Midfield" here - so for example if you play a 4-2-3-1 with a lone striker, two wingers and an AMC, two MC's and 4 at the back - who is "attack" and who is "midfield" amongst them?

Ta...

I've seen a few people query point 4, so I'll try to clarify in some detail.

If you have a back four, a good rule of thumb is to have the following setup:

DR (Attack) DC (Defend/Cover/Stopper), DC (Defend/Cover/Stopper), DL (Support)

This ensures that the defence is linked to the midfield and the attack, as it encourages the FBs/WBs to move between the lines. In general, it shouldn't lead to your being hurt on the counter, because you will have one midfielder on a Defend duty to cover the breaking Attack duty FB.

There are, as always, exceptions to the rule. If you want to build a defensive counter system, you might want to have both FBs on an Attack duty, as having them break forward quickly will be vital to having successful counter attacks. If you play a very aggressive system, you might want to have both FBs on Support duties, so they provide a platform behind the five players in attacking positions (in fact, I'd recommend it). Likewise, as point eleven suggests, an AP in an Attacking strategy is a waste of time, as he gets too far ahead of play to pull any strings. If you want a playmaker, employ a DLP, as he'll tend to sit a little deeper and dictate the game. If your FBs are on Support duties, he'll interact with them behind the five players looking for space in and around the box, whereas if they are on Attack duties, they'll often be too far forward for him to use and he'll be isolated.

To answer Matt's specific question, it doesn't matter exactly who you put on which duty in a 4-2-3-1. This decision is all about where you want to create space.

Option One: MCL (Defend), MCR (Support), AMC (Attack)

The MCL and MCR provide a supporting base for the AMC to break into attack. Main creative responsibility is the MC strata, as the AMC is more of a goalscoring threat.

Option Two: MCL (Defend), MCR (Attack), AMC (Support)

The three players interact a little more, with all having some creative responsibility. However, at times, the MCR will break from deep ahead of the AMC.

[macca72]

Of course I don't think that, but when there's a huge gulf in quality (like Arsenal vs. a League 2 side, or Real vs. a Segunda B side) I tend to think guys like Mourinho and Wenger aren't crafting particularly intricate tactical plans for those matches.

And quite often it does go horribly wrong, see Real Madrid twice (on the trot) knocked out of Copa Del Rey by 3rd division teams. Leeds beat Man U in the FA cup away. It does happen quite often.

[jujigatame]

Then you'd be quite wrong.

That's just like ... your opinion, man.

[wwfan]

Thanks wwfan i for one really appreciate the advice and i have found your guide very useful. as you know i had a change of heart about the game recently, i had a really interesting day on it yesterday i am really getting to grips with the methods need to succeed and im really doing well now. i am really appreciating how good this new ME is and the potential it has to get even better,IMO we are now seeing real football.

Won't be able to thank everyone for their positive comments, so I'll reply to you as a group thanks, largely because you are the type of user I'm most trying to target (passionate about FM, knowledgable about football, struggling to mix the two). Firstly, glad you are having fun on FM again. Secondly, can you expand on what you mean by "real football". Thirdly, thanks again for the positive comment. They really do make all the abuse I get worthwhile.

[wwfan]

One of the other steps to the 12 point plan might be "Don't pay that much attention to what happens in pre-season". I know of at least 3 people who throw potentially good base tactics away because they struggle over 3-4 games in pre-season.

Pre-season is useless for testing a tactic.

[jujigatame]

And quite often it does go horribly wrong, see Real Madrid twice (on the trot) knocked out of Copa Del Rey by 3rd division teams. Leeds beat Man U in the FA cup away. It does happen quite often.

I think our definitions of "quite often" differ.

[macca72]

Pre-season is useless for testing a tactic.

Yes I know / agree. It would be interesting to understand how many people actually don't view it this way.

[macca72]

I think our definitions of "quite often" differ.

Maybe so, so my question would be, more or less often that you've personally experienced playing FM13 ?

[wwfan]

Of course I don't think that, but when there's a huge gulf in quality (like Arsenal vs. a League 2 side, or Real vs. a Segunda B side) I tend to think guys like Mourinho and Wenger aren't crafting particularly intricate tactical plans for those matches.

Mourinho not crafting an intricate tactical plan? The guy's a tactics obsessive! As is/was Guardiola. All the consumer sees is the beautiful football and thinks it is natural to the talented players, but they are both heralded as preparing for each match in minute detail.

[Govnar1]

For example, I think Barca should play between Very Rigid and Balanced, defaulting to a Counter strategy (won't go into the reasons. There's a thread in the Tactics Forum that explains.). I don't think the AI interprets things that way.

I know it (kind of) works this way in game but I just can't get used to it, Barca and Counter strategy in same sentence - it sounds so wrong.

[wwfan]

I know it (kind of) works this way in game but I just can't get used to it, Barca and Counter strategy in same sentence - it sounds so wrong.

I think it sums up what is wrong with the language of football, which FM suffers from too. You can be extremely attacking in a system that actually plays quite deep most of the time. Barca are so good not because they attack all the time, but because they use deep space so well, which recycles ball after ball and keeps the opposition pinned in their own half. They wait for their chance and then strike quickly. In FM, that would be a short-passing, counter-system that has players breaking down both flanks to provide the width.

[jujigatame]

Mourinho not crafting an intricate tactical plan? The guy's a tactics obsessive! As is/was Guardiola. All the consumer sees is the beautiful football and thinks it is natural to the talented players, but they are both heralded as preparing for each match in minute detail.

What I'm saying is that I don't think they have a particularly unique gameplan prepared for teams that are several levels beneath them. Guardiola drilled his Barca side into playing in a very specific way. He did that on the training pitch week in and week out. I don't think that, when facing a club like Hercules or Racing, he crafted a unique tactical plan that was a significant departure from his usual style.

Or, perhaps more directly to my point, I don't think when playing one of those lower level sides, his Barca team would have been suddenly played off the pitch if he wasn't there at the touchline telling them exactly what to do.

[jujigatame]

I think it sums up what is wrong with the language of football, which FM suffers from too. You can be extremely attacking in a system that actually plays quite deep most of the time. Barca are so good not because they attack all the time, but because they use deep space so well, which recycles ball after ball and keeps the opposition pinned in their own half. They wait for their chance and then strike quickly. In FM, that would be a short-passing, counter-system that has players breaking down both flanks to provide the width.

So it sounds like you're saying it's effectively impossible to replicate Barca's style using any of the standard boilerplate mentalities in the game. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, but it's interesting to think about.

[wwfan]

What I'm saying is that I don't think they have a particularly unique gameplan prepared for teams that are several levels beneath them. Guardiola drilled his Barca side into playing in a very specific way. He did that on the training pitch week in and week out. I don't think that, when facing a club like Hercules or Racing, he crafted a unique tactical plan that was a significant departure from his usual style.

Or, perhaps more directly to my point, I don't think when playing one of those lower level sides, his Barca team would have been suddenly played off the pitch if he wasn't there at the touchline telling them exactly what to do.

From the interview Xavi gave (to the Guardian from memory), that's exactly what he did. A tactical plan and playing style are quite different things. The plan might involve neutralising a specific threat, or taking advantage of a weakness. The playing philosophy, however, remained the same.

[DrizzitD]

Won't be able to thank everyone for their positive comments, so I'll reply to you as a group thanks, largely because you are the type of user I'm most trying to target (passionate about FM, knowledgable about football, struggling to mix the two). Firstly, glad you are having fun on FM again. Secondly, can you expand on what you mean by "real football". Thirdly, thanks again for the positive comment. They really do make all the abuse I get worthwhile.

I might have been a bit vague in my first post so I just wanted to clarify I have had great success with this keep it simple mentality that you have been trying to teach.

I play a counter setup with fluid mentality and have had great success going from german 3d division to top division alike (right now playing in Euro cup in 2019/20)

have messed with a couple sliders myself, basically I think its 5 things I have changed:

first width as I play a 4-1-2-1-2 I needed more width to not get totally overrun at flanks so its raised to 1 step over wide

second my 2 MC and my AMC have personal longshot sliders set to rarely as without it they tended to stop short of that final good pass and just blast it 50m over the goal

third I had to reduce my BMW's tackling from hard down to normal as he got way too many yellow > red cards, and this worked out to him actually getting even higher ratings

fourth and fifth I did put pressing team setting on press more But changed my 2 FB personal settings to normal as they frequently got skinned by fast wingers with the press more setting, without it they do a much better job overall keeping track of the oponent and only closing in when in the final 3rd

So once again thank you wwfan, other mods in the tactics forum and everyone else that have contributed to the threads I have been reading in there.

I have learned alot from taking this approach to the game instead of going for download tactics and I enjoy the game alot more thanks to it!

Keep it up, dont let the abuse get to you!

[RTHerringbone]

Great thread.

FM13 made me realise that I have never played any of the CM or FM games properly; I always tried (and failed) to make tactics, and resorted to downloading tactics which effectively exploited prior versions of the ME.

This version is sufficiently different to render that lazy approach obsolete.

In the absence of never having successfully made my own tactic, it finally dawned on me that while I think I know a bit about football in real life, I knew zero about the way in which this simulation game interprets real life.

wwfan is spot on by putting that as point one. Once I overcame my own ego, I opened my mind to the possibility that I didn't know what I was doing, and embarked on a fact-finding mission in the Tactics and Training forum.

I still don't know what I'm doing, but I know more than I did, and am seeing improved performances, football and results as a consequence.

[Govnar1]

I think it sums up what is wrong with the language of football, which FM suffers from too. You can be extremely attacking in a system that actually plays quite deep most of the time. Barca are so good not because they attack all the time, but because they use deep space so well, which recycles ball after ball and keeps the opposition pinned in their own half. They wait for their chance and then strike quickly. In FM, that would be a short-passing, counter-system that has players breaking down both flanks to provide the width.

It's the directness and "attacks at speed" that bother me when using counter to describe Barca strategy.

[Ranquelme]

The board keep telling me I'm playing less than exciting football but I don't understand how.. they said they're happy I'm playing attacking football but are then concerned its not exciting? How do I play exciting football, how is it calculated? amount of CCC? pass ratio?

[wwfan]

It's the directness and "attacks at speed" that bother me when using counter to describe Barca strategy.

Can you expand?

[THOG]

Depends on how you define "tackle". Sliding tackle or hurling-yourself-into-a-shot block tackles are few and far between in professional football yes. If you define it as any body contact depriving an opponent of control of the ball, then 8-10 a game is far far too few.

Well, that's just confusing the issue, and conflating tackling with all kinds of dispossession obscures how these two issues are closely related. In terms of football statistics, a successful tackle is officially defined as any action in which a player either deprives the opposing side of possession or forces it out of play by making contact with it in a challenge against an opposing player. An interception is simply an action where a player takes possession by consciously and intentionally moving between a passed ball and its intended target. As you can see, these are not highly specific definitions. In real football, these actions don't happen as often as many football viewers think, and in fact, players do tackle and intercept too frequently in FM. What they don't do properly is force dispossession by pressing and jockeying opposing players. This is a direct consequence of the lack of collision detection as defenders are literally incapable of preventing attackers from moving into or through space that the defender is physically occupying. A further consequence of this is that defenders become more reliant on aggressive tackling to stop attacking players, particularly wingers. This is why fullbacks consistently have enormous tackle rates in FM whereas, in real football, holding midfielders are the most frequent tacklers (and they tackle less than half as much as FM fullbacks).

So basically, no, there doesn't need to be more tackling (defined as physical contact between the defender and a ball possessed by an opponent), there needs to be representation of actual physical contact between the players themselves and this should lead to more aimless passes, back passes, bad touches, etc. This is where most defending occurs in football, and at the moment, FM isn't prepared to model it. The new ME makes a huge leap forward with collision avoidance, but it still has quite a long way to go before we see realistic pressing and jockeying.

This could be a case of passing not being accurate enough, rather than a case of defenders being too good at interceptions. I still see a fair amount of inexplicable passes that seem to go straight at opposing players.

It's likely a case of passing being too good as players are more likely to attempt ambitious forward balls (that are likely to be intercepted) if the chance of success is high. "Inexplicable" passes going straight to opposing players is quite common in real football as well, though not all wayward passes leading to loss of possession count as an "interception."

More generally, I think a lot of Football Manager players would be surprised to learn how rare successful through balls are in actual top flight football. In an average Premier League match, most teams will typically have one or two successful through balls per match. Zero through balls, however, is not at all uncommon whereas higher numbers are quite uncommon.

[Govnar1]

Can you expand?

Counter strategy (igra na kontre) implies surrendering the ball to opposition and soaking up the pressure in attempt to draw them forward and make them transform into attacking shape. Counter attack (kontra, kontra napad) is used in Croatian language to describe rapid and very direct attack payed in attempt to take advantage of opponents transition/transformation. Barcelona and Spain use different, very patient possession based, strategy to tire opponents and to disrupt their defensive shape. Some things that are key to their successes are not well replicated in game (decoy runs, long passing sequences concentrated on one side of the field, sudden changes of tempo...).

[wwfan]

Counter strategy (igra na kontre) implies surrendering the ball to opposition and soaking up the pressure in attempt to draw them forward and make them transform into attacking shape. Counter attack (kontra, kontra napad) is used in Croatian language to describe rapid and very direct attack payed in attempt to take advantage of opponents transition/transformation. Barcelona and Spain use different, very patient possession based, strategy to tire opponents and to disrupt their defensive shape. Some things that are key to their successes are not well replicated in game (decoy runs, long passing sequences concentrated on one side of the field, sudden changes of tempo...).

I'd have to refer you to Jonathan Wilson's stuff on deep lying, counter attacking formations for the definition I'm using. He argues that this style of play focuses on retaining possession deep then striking at pace when the interchanges have drawn the opposition out of shape.

You can do that in FM by using the Counter strategy (which has a slow to quick tempo shift as it moves into a counter attack), and employing all the short passing, retain possession instructions to ensure all the core passing moves are possession focused. I think it interprets quite well, although there are some movement patterns missing.

[BiggusD]

I'd have to refer you to Jonathan Wilson's stuff on deep lying, counter attacking formations for the definition I'm using. He argues that this style of play focuses on retaining possession deep then striking at pace when the interchanges have drawn the opposition out of shape.

You can do that in FM by using the Counter strategy (which has a slow to quick tempo shift as it moves into a counter attack), and employing all the short passing, retain possession instructions to ensure all the core passing moves are possession focused. I think it interprets quite well, although there are some movement patterns missing.

My understanding of the counter-attack as a match strategy is to care less about possession and concentrate on snatching the ball in lucrative (high) positions on the pitch and then launch a quick, direct attack with many forward movements at the same time. In other words precisely what the Attacking strategy does, except the high defensive line. The counter-attack strategy you talk about is, in my opinion, precisely what Barcelona is doing - although they push high up the field with extremely aggressive pressing.

[Govnar1]

More generally, I think a lot of Football Manager players would be surprised to learn how rare successful through balls are in actual top flight football. In an average Premier League match, most teams will typically have one or two successful through balls per match. Zero through balls, however, is not at all uncommon whereas higher numbers are quite uncommon.

Very best player in Europe played between 0.5 and 1.9 (Totti) accurate through balls per game this season.

I'd have to refer you to Jonathan Wilson's stuff on deep lying, counter attacking formations for the definition I'm using. He argues that this style of play focuses on retaining possession deep then striking at pace when the interchanges have drawn the opposition out of shape.

You can do that in FM by using the Counter strategy (which has a slow to quick tempo shift as it moves into a counter attack), and employing all the short passing, retain possession instructions to ensure all the core passing moves are possession focused. I think it interprets quite well, although there are some movement patterns missing.

I am aware of this, but this is not what is called counter attacking strategy in Croatia. And don't like J. Wilson to much, his knowledge of eastern European football is very patchy.

[wwfan]

My understanding of the counter-attack as a match strategy is to care less about possession and concentrate on snatching the ball in lucrative (high) positions on the pitch and then launch a quick, direct attack with many forward movements at the same time. In other words precisely what the Attacking strategy does, except the high defensive line. The counter-attack strategy you talk about is, in my opinion, precisely what Barcelona is doing - although they push high up the field with extremely aggressive pressing.

Which you can achieve with shouts and adjustments.

Your interpretation of counter seems to be on par with the Charleses (Reep and Hughes) theory of efficient football, which dominated British football in the 1980s.

[wwfan]

I am aware of this, but this is not what is called counter attacking strategy in Croatia.

It is impossible to be linguistically exact even in one language. As soon as translations and cultural interpretations enter the equation, then .....

[Blackbag]

in my Newcastle save i using the pre-set 442 and have only changed the players roles.

i have some success using the defensive strategy away from home and combining it with the Get the Ball Fowards / Hit Early Crosses and Hassle opposition shouts. The best results being a 0-1 victory at Old Trafford and winning by the same score against FC bayern in the Champions League.

Whilst the ME has its problems it is possible to get some good results and great passages of play by keeping it simple. WWfan and the guys in the Tactics forum are helpful and give some good advise (thanks guys), but alot of the time the people asking for the advise don't want to listen to the answers and prefer to jump on the ME is screwd up band wagon

[Govnar1]

It is impossible to be linguistically exact even in one language. As soon as translations and cultural interpretations enter the equation, then .....

But you have to admit that it's strange that Wilson's Counter attack doesn't really counter anything. This is from FM13 manual:

Counter Attack: The counter attack option is best used by an underdog facing a superior opponent or a team with players capable of launching attacks at high speed with a directness about their play. They will tend to sit back in their own half and allow the opposition to have the ball in 'harmless' positions before imposing pressure, taking the ball, and countering.

and this is in game info on counter strategy:

Manual offers no info on strategies.

[Tactic Master]

I think this thread of advice is probably the best i've seen and it's a real eye opener for me personally as it goes to prove that my inability to create a good tactic that is consistent is down to me personally messing with the sliders. I'm going to take your advice on board and try to create one in the sort of way you explain. Will come back with my results