[FM13] New Training system feedback and discussions

[Bluewinterz]

Do the qualifications of the coach affect his training rating? e.g. does a coach need a UEFA B/A/Pro licence to be rated 5*?

[NakS]

Besides the % workload repartition question, I’d really like to bring back to the table discussions and questions points regarding i) rest day and ii) condition recovery through workload.

1. When we are assigning rest day before and/or after a game: Does it apply to the whole team or only the last starting 11 + let’s say a sub who have played more than 45minutes?
   
2. Is the coaching staff automatically (under the hood) deals with general training workload individually in order to have ALL players 100% fit (condition) for the next game? I guess the answer is no since it doesn’t seem that each player has an individual general training workload anymore, but I still ask that question
   

In order to have a single player 100% for the next game, we are told to use “rest day” feature for only one player to avoid the fact that only one player will trigger a workload decrease for the whole team. I don’t think it is the best way to deal with player condition for two reasons. i) The “individual” rest feature is basically used when a player is jaded, not for condition recovery ii) if he is not jaded, he may not react well if you ask him day off due to his personality. I think we can lower (or even cancel) individual training workload if necessary as well since it is separate now.

• Is now rest day the equivalent of a low training workload? Like light running after a game to enhance recovery?
  

If not, it’s a major flaw in my opinion. Such a feature (I mean lowering general training workload on a daily and individual basis) would be very handy. A manager should be able to told his last starting 11 to be on low training workload one day after a game. A manager should be able as well to preserve his key player by lowering individually his workload 2 days before the game from hard to low for example.

[Emmeth]

NakS you did an amazing job indeed, your thread IMO deserves a sticky.

One request only, could you please update your thread with the corrections posted ? Something like release 2.0 or so..

Thanks a lot in advance !

[tajj 7]

Riz, I suspect the answer is no, but could you clear something up for me: other than training a new position, can you select a role focus that isn't part of a player's position.

cheers

xxx

No, not if he hasn't at least accomplished in the position so you can't train a defender as a poacher role focus

[phoenix81]

So can anyone tell me quickest way to fill Tactic familiarization? With only 1 tactic to learn its taking until January to get 100%

[Smac]

- Default intensity drop down menu under General training tab control training intensity for both general training and team focus intensity.

- Default focus drop down menu under General training tab is about the team focus by default for each week

- I can override both team focus choice and team focus intensity using the two drop down menus on a weekly basis

- How works "default intensity" under General training tab? I made the assumption it is a 1/5 (very low), 2/5 (low) 3/5 (average) 4/5 (hard) and 5/5 (very hard) multiplicator of the iniatila 50% worklaod. So with 50% initial workload assigned to general training, after default intensity multiplier it would be respectively 10%, 20%, 30% 40% and max 50%?

- Is team focus workload taken out of general training workload? If yes how?

Thanks again.

I think you guys are over-complicating things regarding "focus". As I understand it the team "focus" is the flavor of general training your team undergoes. There is no need for "general training and team focus intensity". It should be "general training with team focus intensity type".

[NakS]

So can anyone tell me quickest way to fill Tactic familiarization? With only 1 tactic to learn its taking until January to get 100%

Maximum workload on match preparation is the way to go I think.

[Wlv]

Brilliant.thread and love the new training system..I actually use it, which is the first I've done so in the past 10 releases

[Teutomatos]

Brilliant.thread and love the new training system..I actually use it, which is the first I've done so in the past 10 releases

Great ! I love my Mum too ... It's tatoo on my heart. Subjugation is a thing, Submission an another ...

Howether, you use it ? Well done ... May be you could explain to us how to restor 100 % condition, recovery the hot spot jadness beetween 2 matchs ?

I m not talkin about the "rest day" use for the Season's jadness without different achievement.

And i'll be curious to know how can you evaluate the necessary calibration which involve your player's potential ?

Trust in your coaches ? At what point ?

Before we had graphs to check it and interactions possibilities. Until now. But now ?

Naks'sthread is brillant because it put somes questions in the box, and expecting answers. Still waiting ...

Dont worry boy, it's not a "rants" specifical about you, but if you read some forums from differents countries, you could observ that the majority of reactions asking for "how to use it", and stand for the moment disapointed. Because it's a blind interaction.

So, may be, if you have some tricks, methods, about right "calibration" for each player, and to manage and follow the best evolution, on the distance, please tell us !

[jim morrow]

I understand what Teutomatos means about condition, and it will be good if we can have a reply

from SI about two important things : I take a pratical case.

It's saturday and a match is scheduled for this evening. In my starting 11, 9 players show 100% condition, two have 98%. In past FM12 or FM11, to optimize recovery of those 2 players, we lowered 1 or two notches of the training workload and the consequence is that in the next saturday, those 2 players can start the new game with 100% condition and so all the starting 11 get perfect condition to begin the match.

1st question to SI : By what means can we do the same in FM13 ?

If your reply is < please "rest a day" players you need > so a second question arrives :

If you rested players in the old FM12 or FM11, after lot of times, the player was unhappy(we saw an increase in the hidden attributes) cause he thought that it was unjustified. Resting a day in the past version was only used when the player was exhausted and before resting him, you needed to talk with him.

So question for FM13 : Resting a day too many times in this new version don't send player unhappy ?

[tajj 7]

Making sure players are fully fit, the key is to reduce training workload.

1. Reduce his individual focus workload. ->

2. Make sure there is a rest day pre and post match (or try one or both) ->

3. Reduce general training workload.

4. If your player still isn't staying fit he needs a week (or 4) off, which you can give him.

The previous training was both too complicated and too simplistic at the same time. In the situation above you needed 2-3% more fitness so you notch down a slider or two. <- Too easy and not realistic IMO, would be like a real life coach saying, "you looked a bit jaded out there Saturday, so this week you are only going to do 2 hours 54 minutes training instead of 3 hours".

Personally I never care about 100%, for me no professional footballer is ever going to 100% during a busy season, 97, 98, 99% is fine and 100% all the time isn't realistic IMO.

[Mendeth]

I too have a query about the rest days in the training schedule. The matches included in the schedule are, for obvious reasons, first team only. However unless I'm mistaken, my reserves are included as training with the first team, so does this mean that they are hardly training during the week, even if they don't have a match, because the first team is playing?

[MasterOfSuspense]

IMO the training is a lot simpler than before - I have my senior squad default set at balanced and average - When I have no match that week I set to fitness-high and when I have two games that week I do less physical training like ball control or tactics

U18 training is always set to balanced-high

Pre-season is set to fitness-very high for the first 2 weeks and then lowered to high when playing friendlies

Start of season I change every player to their appropriate focus - Keepers to Goalkeeper, DCs to Central Defender etc so they get general training for their position and rely on coach feedback during the season to change focus to specific weaknesses

I prefer the simplicity to the micro managing that we've had in the past - makes the game quicker and you can concentrate on other things like developing tactics or looking for players

I know some people used to have an individual training schedule for EVERY single player - I would find that very boring but whatever floats your boat

I think this is the best training module ever

[Gee_Simpson]

IMO the training is a lot simpler than before - I have my senior squad default set at balanced and average - When I have no match that week I set to fitness-high and when I have two games that week I do less physical training like ball control or tactics

U18 training is always set to balanced-high

Pre-season is set to fitness-very high for the first 2 weeks and then lowered to high when playing friendlies

Start of season I change every player to their appropriate focus - Keepers to Goalkeeper, DCs to Central Defender etc so they get general training for their position and rely on coach feedback during the season to change focus to specific weaknesses

I prefer the simplicity to the micro managing that we've had in the past - makes the game quicker and you can concentrate on other things like developing tactics or looking for players

I know some people used to have an individual training schedule for EVERY single player - I would find that very boring but whatever floats your boat

I think this is the best training module ever

I done that last year after being inspired by Cleon :o

I actually enjoyed it but not the initial setting up part as that took a while, but once it was done, it enabled me to make a tweak here and there for every individual in my squad without it affecting anyone else.

[Wlv]

Great ! I love my Mum too ... It's tatoo on my heart. Subjugation is a thing, Submission an another ...

Howether, you use it ? Well done ... May be you could explain to us how to restor 100 % condition, recovery the hot spot jadness beetween 2 matchs ?

I m not talkin about the "rest day" use for the Season's jadness without different achievement.

And i'll be curious to know how can you evaluate the necessary calibration which involve your player's potential ?

Trust in your coaches ? At what point ?

Before we had graphs to check it and interactions possibilities. Until now. But now ?

Naks'sthread is brillant because it put somes questions in the box, and expecting answers. Still waiting ...

Dont worry boy, it's not a "rants" specifical about you, but if you read some forums from differents countries, you could observ that the majority of reactions asking for "how to use it", and stand for the moment disapointed. Because it's a blind interaction.

So, may be, if you have some tricks, methods, about right "calibration" for each player, and to manage and follow the best evolution, on the distance, please tell us !

Well, as I said its the first time I've used training, I wish I knew the answer to your questions but if I find them I'll be sure to let you know!!

[MasterOfSuspense]

I actually enjoyed it but not the initial setting up part as that took a while, but once it was done, it enabled me to make a tweak here and there for every individual in my squad without it affecting anyone else

I can see the advantage of that as every player is slightly different but it would be so time consuming for me and I'd tinker too much

[7Bestie7]

I can see the advantage of that as every player is slightly different but it would be so time consuming for me and I'd tinker too much

I would go through each player's training at the end of each transfer window (so roughly six months at a time). It was very time consuming but well worth it.

[TOUGHGUY]

I think this is the best training module ever

I take it you have never had two centre backs then, one in need of huge improvement physically but sound tactically, and the second one the other way around...

[MasterOfSuspense]

I take it you have never had two centre backs then, one in need of huge improvement physically but sound tactically, and the second one the other way around...

I'd send the more advanced one out on loan to build his physicality while playing for another club and have the other doing intensive training

[spankie]

IMO the training is a lot simpler than before - I have my senior squad default set at balanced and average - When I have no match that week I set to fitness-high and when I have two games that week I do less physical training like ball control or tactics

A couple of nice tips there that I think I'll give a try.

[Steve Atherton]

I have read most of the thread and may have missed it - but I can't see a way of allowing senior coaches to coach youth players. In FM12 "Coaches" could do this but not "1st Team coaches".

The manual quotes:

"Your senior coaches may work with the youth team in addition to youth team coaches if you wish to give them the benefit of their strengths and experience"

Can anyone point me in the right direction to achieve this?

*** Just to clarify. I am trying to add a coach using the editor. I am able to do this but there is no option for a "coach" - only 1st team, U21, U18 etc.

One more point as an example: Neil Banfield at Arsenal is a "Coach" but is only coaching the 1st team. In FM12 he coached both 1st team and U18's.

[private pyle]

I have read most of the thread and may have missed it - but I can't see a way of allowing senior coaches to coach youth players. In FM12 "Coaches" could do this but not "1st Team coaches".

The manual quotes:

"Your senior coaches may work with the youth team in addition to youth team coaches if you wish to give them the benefit of their strengths and experience"

Can anyone point me in the right direction to achieve this?

*** Just to clarify. I am trying to add a coach using the editor. I am able to do this but there is no option for a "coach" - only 1st team, U21, U18 etc.

One more point as an example: Neil Banfield at Arsenal is a "Coach" but is only coaching the 1st team. In FM12 he coached both 1st team and U18's.

Yeah also struggling to get 1st team coaches to train the u18's it seems only the reserves coach, goalkeeper coaches and fitness coaches can work with both.

The problem is it is extremely difficult to recruit u18's coaches that have good stats because no one will sign as a u18's coach they want a job as a 1st team coach.

[fmFutbolManager]

I too would like an answer to the above. I'm only allowed 6 coaches at Parma, at the moment I have three for u18 and three for first team because I cannot see a way to put my coaches across the two like in previous versions.

That being said, I do like the new training set-up. I think it’s a massive improvement from the previous versions.

However, what I would like to be able to do is change the general and match training intensity per player (if you can please show me how). For example, I have a kid in my team that is very raw, I want him to work very hard on the position I'm training him for, and very hard on his preferred move. However, if I set his intensity to high, he is unhappy with his workload. So to combat this I can reduce the intensity for general training just to make him happy. But I can only seem to do this for the team, not a single player.

What I would like to have is the ability to take him out of general training with the rest of the squad and have him work more on his individual training. I don't like that the whole team has to train together all the time on the intensity that is set. I would also like to be able to do this in groups. For example, if my strikers are particularly poor in front of goal I would like to take them out of general training and have them all work individually on their attacking together.

Hope that makes sense.

[Finknottle]

I need some clarification, please. I have my Asst Man. take care of the training and match preparation. At the start of the season, general training is automatically set to balance and average with scheduling set at 30%. Match training is set to tactics only.

Fast forward to the end of September, all of the settings are unaltered. This in spite of my scouts saying that 'attacking movement' would be best against team 'X'. Why does nothing seem to change? I have all the relative boxes ticked in the responsibilities screen. Am I doing something wrong? Can anyone assist?

[mirto1985]

While I like the redesign of the training (it was really needed), I can;t really figure out what I am exactly doing. How exactly do I know how good/bad the team focus works and how far my team is in that particular area? At the moment I'm just randomly alternating between the different modes since I have no clue what exactly is happening in the background. Is there some feedback screen from the coaches I am missing?

[Steve Atherton]

I have read most of the thread and may have missed it - but I can't see a way of allowing senior coaches to coach youth players. In FM12 "Coaches" could do this but not "1st Team coaches".

The manual quotes:

"Your senior coaches may work with the youth team in addition to youth team coaches if you wish to give them the benefit of their strengths and experience"

Can anyone point me in the right direction to achieve this?

*** Just to clarify. I am trying to add a coach using the editor. I am able to do this but there is no option for a "coach" - only 1st team, U21, U18 etc.

One more point as an example: Neil Banfield at Arsenal is a "Coach" but is only coaching the 1st team. In FM12 he coached both 1st team and U18's.

Just bumping if anyone can help please.

[fmFutbolManager]

Along with the above, what I want to know is how on earth these bugs in the training system got through testing? There are three big bugs with it that I cannot see how they slipped the net.

1. When I sort my players by position on the Individual Training screen, change the focus and the list re-adjusts to some random order.

2. Changing the Individual Training focus for my u18 does not save. So you cannot train them as much as you would like. It always reverts back to the old schedule.

3. When you right click on a player in the Individual Training screen and change his focus that way, it doesn't match on the screen or change.

Any idea when these things will be fixed, amongst the other bugs? It's really not enjoyable when you're trying to train your wonderkids but you can't because of these simple flaws.

[Jarmel]

Must say i miss the the old slider system because this new system doesn't allow me to cover all the options i need. I have quite a few younger players that need physical training urgently. This new system will only allow me to focus on individual physical attributes but i need to give them a boost across all of the fitness attributes. . However the only way i can focus on training them across all of the physical attributes is to have my team focus as fitness.

If there was an option in individual focus that included the ability to train for all of the physical attributes , same as we have for the position roles i'd be much happier with the new system.

[NakS]

Thanks guys to keep this thread alive by pointing potentiel bugs/UI concerns and asking questions. Hopefully, someone in SI will answers. I'll be back with a much more detailled feedback and suggestions post in this thread to bring attention to this back, I am actually already working on it. If you wanna help, please feel free to list questions and constructiv criticisms and possible improvements, I'll take in onboard to try to make a well written and built feeback. I hope to have something within a week or so, kind of busy working at the moment.

[NakS]

Hi all and SI Team

The decision has been made to revamp training in FM13. It is more than likely now that the new training module is here to stay, so I don’t expect (I don't want) at all sliders and full individual schedules/workload to be back. Consensus has to be made. So let’s move on and work from current training module which I think has way more potential than the last one to improve things.

Since my first feedback, I have now more gaming time on FM13, I have spent some time studying the new training system. I have as well collected informations, from Riz especially, and made my own opinions about what I think is great and what I think is restrictive.

From today I will go through each point, one at a time, and provide feedback and highlight how it is limiting and suggest some ideas about how it could be improve within the new training module.

Today, I Propose you to start with general training

Players group and General training

Default general training philosophy

General team training groups are made position wise by coaches. Defenders with defenders, midfielders with midfielders and forward with forward. Since players are grouped position wise, players are assign to positional schedules by default.

Claim

If I don’t want to stick with the default training philosophy, I should be able to group players as I see fit and I should be able to design groups‘ schedule as well.

Example 1.

My style is to train together fullbacks and holding defensive midfielders. At the same time, I like to train wingbacks and box-to-box players together as I think they share the same need regarding what they are doing on the pitch. So I’d like to split these players in 2 distincts groups and decide how I’d like to train them in general training.

Why the new training module is restrictive

• I cannot split fullbacks from wingbacks in FB position in general training anymore as they are training within the same positional schedule.
  
• I cannot split holding defensive midfielder from playmaking defensive midfielder.
  
• I can not split box-to-box midfielder from ball wining midfielders
  
• I can not group box-to-box midfielders with offensive wingbacks
  
• I can not group defensive fullbacks with holding defensive midfielders
  
• I have no control on how general training schedule are designed.
  

Individual role training does not take care of the job for several reasons:

• It is now additional workload so player’s workload is increased even more and I want this to be in general training and as my core training, applying my training philosophy. It is what is defining my training style and I want players to do this in group, not individually.
  
• Even if I use “individual role wingbacks” on wingback, it will not be the same training as box-to-box midfielders as general training is different. I want wingbacks and box to box midfielder to train together, exact same general training

Realism aspect

Ajax Amsterdam is known to develop this kind of players; Vurnon Anita for example is able to play as a wingback and a defensive midfielder/playmakers. I can’t design a group for that kind of player in general training.

Example 2.

I do think universality in players is key and my style is to train my front 4(AML, AMR, AMC, ST) in the same schedule. My front 4 is interchanging constantly, AMC with ST and AMR with AML. So I want then in the sae training group and within the same general training “schedule”. But at the same time, each of them is unique. The ST is a creative force, AMC is physical workhorse, AMR is a striker-winger while AML is a tricky dribbler. I’d like to have a common training for them to be able to exchange position and at the same time expanding their own game (creativity, physical, speed, dribbling)

Why the new training module is restrictive

• I cannot group wingers and strikers together.
  
• Wingers and strikers are not in the same positional schedules so they are not training in the same way
  
• Since it is in game exchanges, coaches do not consider my striker is playing in AMC spot for example.
  
• I cannot group players from different position to have a common training and then develop them individually.
  

Realism aspect

Interchanging forwards and complete forward are potent tactical weapons. Think C.Ronaldo, W.Rooney and C.Tevez years back at Manchester United. All different, but all able to play in each other position retaining their own style. I’d like to have a core, common training for my front 3 and, through different position (AM and ST) and at the same time, expands their own game.

Example 3.

I think universality is key I don’t think defending should be function of position. I want all my players to train defence at the same rate and my forward is my first line of defence. As I play a high pressing game, fitness is a main concern for me and I like to emphasize this aspect as well, same fitness training for all my players

Why the new training module is restrictive

• I can not control how all positional schedules are design, thus control how much defence training is done for each position
  
• I cannot specify each of my players should train fitness / defence equally and by how much.
  
• I can choose “collective focus: defence” week 1 and week 2 “collective focus: fitness” and so on to do it . But it is just painful to use this feature like this to fit a training philosophy. Still, players are not training fitness and defence equally.
  

Realism aspect

Famous managers Valeryi Lobanovskyi, amongst others, was well known to not believe in the fact that defending should be function of position.

What I propose:

• Allowing the user an advanced mode (A-Mode) if he wants to go away from default training as described above.
  
• In A-Mode: Allowing the user to have a team core-training schedule for all players. Not only a collective focus for a week. The manager should be able to tell his coaching staff how much he wants in defence training, tactics trainings and fitness training and tactics training for all his team to match a precise training style with in-game philosophy. If he has base team training, less time will be spent in more specific groups training naturally. Total workload affected to general is still controlled/shared with match preparation slider. Sames goes for intensity of general training which can be easily tone down (5 levels from light to hard). Preset base team trainings could be proposed as well. If the manager doesn't want any team training for all players, he just has not to create any.
  
• In A-Mode: Allowing the user group players freely. To avoid individual general training schedule, a group maybe at least 3 players.
  
• In A-Mode: Allowing the user to design group schedules freely.

- Regarding the last point, designing schedule. As sliders are definitely gone, I suggest a more controlled and constrained "radar style" graphic display to choose how to affect training workload in a more user friendly way. Well I hope.

Workload assigned to a full team training would be by 5% notches by category only and maximum 100% notches per category (6 categories only in this example, but more would be ok). Overall team workload limit would be 100% obviously but it would means no workload remaining for groups training. Individual training workload would be apart, as it is now.

Users would be able to spot quickly how he is training his whole team. He can create new team training, modify an existing one to reduce team training workload. Preset training could be proposed as well.

Here I have designed 3 differents team training. "Sacchi training" has a focus on defence (15%), tactics (10%) and fitness (5%). A "high pressing game" team training would be 5% defence, 5% fitness, 5% team cohesion and 5% tactics to work as a unit ASAP. Same goes for "brazilian free flowing" team training with attack, team cohesion and ball control. This is the tool I'd like to have to apply training style as a manager and choose how workload is spread between category for the whole team if I want to.

Let's say, I have choosen "high pressing game" team training, it represents 20% from workload assigned to general training. I have decided to design 2 groups including say 5 players in each. These 10 players are in specific/custom training groupes. if I have 25 players in total, the remaining 15 players are all by default in positional schedules as it is now.

I still have the radar display to choose how i want each group to train. Still 5% notches by category and maximum workload would be "100%-team training workload" = 80%. Each group has the same team training workload (20%) and, building from it, I add group workload as I see fit. Team training is purple and each group has coloour. More balanced group training for box and box and fullback. More attacking orientated for my interchanging front 3. Default positional SI Schedules would be available and modifiable with the radar layout as well if I am fine with groups made position wise but I want to alter positional schedules. I can decide a group has only 95% total of workload if I want to, thus managing fitness by group easily.

I really hope to have some feedback on this feedback by SI that will hopefully hep expanding the new training module.

Many thanks for reading such a long post and feel free to comment and post your thoughs

[Da_Funk]

I had a look at the training module and there's something in its design that I truly can't understand (do you know when you look at screen and scream: "WHY?").

Ok so, you can have individual training right? And you can select a role from the Tactic Creator or an individual attribute, right?

Well that's wrong not right.....eheheh.

First of all: let's assume I use classic/old tactic UI (so sliders), what's the meaning of that role selection in the training? Answer is: that's basically just a set of attributes, a selected/predetermined group of that. But then why am I forced to select that or ONE single attribute?

Isn't more logic for the user to simply have up to 5 attributes (or whatever max number you decide) to focus, and the more attributes I have the less effective/focus the individual training is?

Anyhow as a temporary fix or while you think about it, when you select the individual training for a player in the "team" training screen, it would be better if I know which attributes are linked to each role in that screen. If I miss something in the UI, sorry everyone.

I already stated in my post, I know it.

But the point is that the choice is limiting the user with some weird choice. I'll try to be as explicit as I am.

I can train a defender as limited defender or central defender. Well on the screen it's not explained any difference between those choices so I assume that it refers to the attributes highlighted in the TC where there's the descriptions of the role right? But if I don't use the TC and use classic mode I don't have any reference first of all! Going on, let's suppose I have a defender I want to train on some attributes. I assume/suppose that if I select a role (central or limited) it means it's a focus on some attributes you decided! I can't understand this implementation: wouldn't be simpler and more user friendly to give a max number of attributes like 3/4/5/x? I mean if I want my defender on marking+positioning+penalties? marking+tackling+free kicks? That's why I say it's forced. I can train a player with central defender (which it can mean marking+positioning+tackling+i can't remember) but I can't have a Mihajlovic and train him with just free kicks+marking for example? A winger can have a focus role (which should be a combination of speed and cross per example) but not free kicks+penalties+corner? Do you understand?

I didn't mention last training module, nor wouldn't. I didn't made any comparison nor said it's bad, just that it can be implemented in a better way, more flexible, more user friendly and more sense (which doesn't mean the actual one has NO sense, just that is missing in some points). At least you can put on the bottom right (there's space there?) a little box so that when I select a player on the list and that has focus on "poacher" in that box and without the need to go to TC (IF ACTIVE) I can see which attributes are considered.

Thanks for reply.

http://mypassion4footballmanager.blogspot.com/2012/11/football-manager-2013-individual-training-player-roles.html

http://mypassion4footballmanager.blogspot.com/2012/11/football-manager-2013-training-individual-specific-attribute.html

Let's suppose I want to train 2 or 3 players to specialize on corner kicks, can I? No because I need Corner+Passing+Crossing and I can't do it.

But I can train a player with Crossing Dribbling Marking Tackling Technique Decisions Team Work Work Rate Pace Stamina, which is Defensive Wingers role. This is the weird of the system as it is implemented.

The alternative is not "a focus fully on a certain area" is "focus fully on a certain attribute".

I paste here something I pointed out on the Constructive Thread. There are other things that come on my mind (like the possibility to train the team more on situational or tactic specific, like Offside, Counter Attack, Build-Up, Superiority after opposite red card, Inferiority after team red card or decide a "season physical peak form") but here in this thread there are already many others already like the one pointed out by Naks, so let's check a few at the time.

[NakS]

Thanks for your input Da_funk. Agree with you on the "predeterminded attributes sets" we are forced to use to fit a rôle. We should have more flexibility, though with limits of courses and 5 attributs max seems to be a fair point.

[Da_Funk]

Well, if you go checking the mentioned thread where I submitted this, it looks like a moderator and some other user doesn't agree with me, still they insisted it was all okay as it and sincerely this quick negative reply disappoints me. I'll go reading this whole thread later and feedback when I can

[TOUGHGUY]

You don't even need to go that deep - if we for some reason acknowledge that different players focusing on various aspects in ways other than those linked to player roles is somehow 'deep' - in defense of more detailed or individual training schedules. Right now you cannot easily set up something as basic and common and widespread in football as individual fitness training.

[davidbowie]

New training sucks, I made my views clear in the video thread, beta and release didn't change anything. Having the training module completely wrecked is one of the reasons I won't be playing FM 13.

[jlawlor91]

What does the different colour represent when you choose the type and intensity of training?

Mine changes to green / red / orange or white.

Thanks

[NakS]

Hi again all and SI Team

Following general training, today I'll talk about individual training

Players group and General training

Default individual training philosophy

Individual training has now a separate workload. Previously (read FM12), individual training workload was taken off general training workload. Now, it is additionnal workload. We still have option to set PPM and new position but we have now 2 options. First one is the single attribute training. Second one is role attributes training. Not both, only one of the last 2. With 3 different priority levels available. I am fine with this, I think single attribut or (exclusive) is a balanced feature alongside current general training (read not modifiable). Basically you have no choices regarding training schedule for your team and position wise, but you do have some choices for an individual schedules. But again, just choices. You can not edit any training schedule, individual or positional.

Design and limitations

I understand why we do not have any modifying possibilities. Game breaking, training exploit and irrealistic player progression spring to mind. Fair enough, but the thing is all theses « exploits » are possible by design of training mechanics and in order to remove them and increase IA training efficiency the decision has been made not to enhance training mechanics but to remove possibility to achieve such exploits.

But at the same time, we have now the same training schedule /categories ratio (positional) for each FB in the world. Same goes for role focus « wingback » for example. You can not choose any attributes at all. Maybe I am the only but I do think I should have decision making on this. Not absolute decision making, but at least a small level of decision making. I perfectly understand the need of « compromise » in the game and balance in game design

Claim

If I don’t want to stick with the default role training philosophy, I should be able to design my own roles' as well. I can expand this idea to design specific workshop, suited to my training philosophy or players needs

Example 1.

My young advanced playmakers has awesome potential, fulfilling already all technical stats but still a bit rough in others attributes like stamina, acceleration, agility. Moreover, he has a major flaw in off the ball. In my system, it is key that my advanced (natural CM only) playmaker is able to find space between the line. So, what I want from him is to focus on aerobic group, stamina and in off the ball movement.

Why the new training module is restrictive

• Advanced playmaker individuel role training is : first touch – passing – technique - creativity – teamwork - decision – flair. No physical attributes at all highlighted in training – area last time I check.
  
• I cannot edit advanced playmaker role training, simple as that. At the moment, I have to switch between "single attribut – off the ball/stamina/agility/quickness" and "role-AP" to . Why can't I remove say passing and teamwork to introduce off the ball and stamina instead?

Example 2.

I'd like to set a simple yet specific offensive mobility and high press workshop for some players including : workrate, stamina, acceleration, agility, off the ball. The thinking behing is simple, I want all my AMC and Wingers, ST to be deadly when looking for space, getting into it and be ready asap (first touch) to make offensive actions like passing/long shot. In defensive phase, I want them to harass more efficiently the opponent.

Basically I want them to practise high press, mobility and use of offensive space.

Why the new training module is restrictive

• I am not able to practise attribute related to a basic footballing action like closing down and finding offensive space for a group of player (say front 4). Sames goes for crossing, making run from deep ; harassing opponent, play offside trap ; keep defensive shape, etc…

What I propose

Simple. Possibility to edit and create role training with obvious constraints (6 attributs max for example, at least 3) to keep the game balanced.

Based on this possibility and since individual training is based on role, I think group training/workshop/individual options could be based on shouts as well. Let’s take some examples, I am using Cleon’s work regarding shouts to illustrate my point

Play Out of Defence – It will instruct any player with a defensive duty (midfield and defence) to play shorter passes. So it reduces passing. It’s worth using this if you find that these players are just hoofing the ball forward and giving possession away cheaply.

For defenders and midfielders of my choice: passing + creativity + composure.

Stay On Feet – Everyone (unless you use a BWM) will be instructed to easy tackle. This is useful if you feel challenges are been miss-timed or if you are just been reckless. Also good to use if your players are lack the tackling attribute. Using this also helps the team keep its defensive shape, especially against technically fast sides.

Workshop : Positioning – Concentration – Anticipation – Stamina

Get Stuck In - This tells the team to tackle hard. Useful if the motivation widget tells you if the opposition are playing nervous or if a team has low bravery. Use this if you get the sense of your team been to0 soft and you think they could be winning the ball back quicker. Note though that you need the correct attributes from your own players to time the challenge right or you could pick up extra bookings and sending off’s.

Workshop : Tackling – Balance – Strength – Anticipation – Acceleration

Run At Defence - Instructs all attacking players to run with the ball often. This does not include MC’s on attacking duty, only attacking midfielders. This is best used when the opposition allows your attacking players time on the ball .i.e. not closing you down. It can be a great shout to use if the opposition is standing off you. It can be equally effective if the oppositions defence are bad at tackling as well.

Workshop for AM, wingers, strikers: Dribbling – Balance – Flair – Agility – Acceleration

Shoot On Sight – Increases the long shots for your team. Can be used against sides that are deemed to park the bus in front of the goal. Advisable to use if your attacking players have a good long shot attribute.

Workshop : long shot – technique – first touch

This is training coupled with tactical projection. What I usually so at the beginning of the season is to use team comparison tools and assess my assets amongst other team in my league. If i have a creativity/passing/off the ball advantage I usually set as a starting shouts « pass into space ». This workshop option would complement very well a TC and shouts way of playing.

Many thanks for reading such a long post and feel free to comment and post your thoughs

[7Bestie7]

I understand why we do not have any modifying possibilities. Game breaking, training exploit and irrealistic player progression spring to mind.

And this my biggest issue with the entire apparent reasoning behind the shift in training. From what I've seen and read about in regards to the Ajax training method they're very much in favour of player specific training schedules to improve weaknesses in players to make sure everyone who graduates their system does so as the best they can be.

As it's previously been stated, personalised training methods can be used IRL to improve aspects of a players game. The fact it isn't is down to the fundamental attitude towards training in England (as training in other countries are done sometimes in completely different ways). What SI have done is - whether deliberately or not - is look at the game AI, accept it isn't capable of shaping a player the way a human user is to the extent it's English training quality (AI) vs Barca/Dutch training quality (User) and limited the user's options accordingly.

A training version of the TC where we have set training modes (for each position/role) with more/less options on each training category to allow for advanced editing will allow for both an increase in AI's ability to train its players (relate options to AI tactics), allow us a much better control that what there is now and still stay away from the sliders.

[interesti88]

Naks this has been very helpful and useful, I do wish we could get some clarification from SI about the training schedules as it seems to be too much for my little mind to comprehend.

I didn't have a problem with the previous training module as I could manually set a training schedule but this current training schedule is a little complicated and doesn't let me train a certain group of players at once or individually reduce their training levels.

What I am really furious about is that there is no guide in-game for the new training schedule, I tried the simplified guide thats on game but thats as useful as Fernando Torres in the Champions League.

[NakS]

And this my biggest issue with the entire apparent reasoning behind the shift in training. From what I've seen and read about in regards to the Ajax training method they're very much in favour of player specific training schedules to improve weaknesses in players to make sure everyone who graduates their system does so as the best they can be.

Exactly, Ajax training method is TIPS for Technique Intelligence Personality Speed.

As it's previously been stated, personalised training methods can be used IRL to improve aspects of a players game. The fact it isn't is down to the fundamental attitude towards training in England (as training in other countries are done sometimes in completely different ways). What SI have done is - whether deliberately or not - is look at the game AI, accept it isn't capable of shaping a player the way a human user is to the extent it's English training quality (AI) vs Barca/Dutch training quality (User) and limited the user's options accordingly.

Regarding IRL training, Coerver Method (dutch) springs to mind though it has been applied to some extent at ManUnited by René Meulensteen as a technical skills developpment coach. Regarding how training is heading, that's my feeling too, hence the point "training exploit" related to "ME exploits". But the solution here has not be a Training Creator to enhance AI training but limiting user options and I don't feel that's good for the future of the game. Though this training module has great potential in my opinion.

A training version of the TC where we have set training modes (for each position/role) with more/less options on each training category to allow for advanced editing will allow for both an increase in AI's ability to train its players (relate options to AI tactics), allow us a much better control that what there is now and still stay away from the sliders.

That will be my next post, I have worked on a TTC (Tactical Training Creator) concept. I'll try to explain it as soon as possible

Thanks interresti88, I hope answers and discussion as well.

[siambluebird]

Man, for what was meant to be a simplification of the process it seems very complicated Thanks for all your work NakS. Will keep checking in!

[NakS]

Man, for what was meant to be a simplification of the process it seems very complicated Thanks for all your work NakS. Will keep checking in!

Haha true, as I am not a native english speaker I do my best to articulate idea in a well-written/to-the-point way. Thanks for your support!