foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 What Kenny did for us was to get that first trophy win. It sets the mentality that we expect to win trophies. That is what football is all about. this is actually a fair point, mancini did it at man city and mourinho did it at chelsea, it brings confidence and creates a winning mentality, theres nothing wrong with that attitude. the problem where it falls down is, we should be challenging for a cup AND top 4, especially with the season arsenal and chelsea have just put in and after we spent £100m to do it. both sides have merit but for a club as big as us, we should be aiming for both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 But we're not talking hypotheticals here. You're arguing that Kenny - an aging manager who showed no signs of anything decent in his time there - should be the one to provide this stability. Why do you think that?If you're arguing that stability is needed then that just galvinates the argument for Kenny being sacked and a younger more promising manager and backroom team being brought in. Because he did improve us! We got to TWO finals and won one of them! Why are you ignoring that? Our style of football improved under him compared to Hodgson. A few things went against him over the course of the season. What I think it Kenny loves the club so much that they should have given him 3/4 more years. In that time he would have happily helped to improve the club as a whole. For instance bring youngester through, help get the best out of the academy etc. rather than focus on just top 4. You then have a very stable club, with hopefully a new stadium, a good academy, and a young and exciting squad ready for a younger manager to come in and work with. Now what we have got is the club in a mess again with no direction. That is what I am saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Also, how has this season provided any sort of stability in any way? You've slid down the league, the squad looks weaker despite splashing loads of cash, and media wise it's been an absolute shambles. Another season of that is not going to do you any favours. That's without the fact that the owners entire aim is to get regular champions league football as that's what fits in with their business model, as per their other sports clubs. They want to make money, and getting to the champions league is going to make them that money. And Kenny fell well short of that target. Dont see any reason why he shoud have stayed myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The simple truth is, if any non Liverpool legend (Be it Rafa, Mourinho, AVB, Hodgson, absolutely anyone) had taken over instead of Kenny and led us to 8th in the league, below Everton and a worse league performance than the year before (well the previous 55 years before) having spent a decent amount of money. Every single person would be screaming for his head and would not want to give them more money to spend or another year in charge. It is 100% pure rose tinted idolisation that has made anyone remotely question the decision. And no matter how much you say that that isn't it, you're completely and utterly wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Because he did improve us! We got to TWO finals and won one of them! Why are you ignoring that? Our style of football improved under him compared to Hodgson. A few things went against him over the course of the season. What I think it Kenny loves the club so much that they should have given him 3/4 more years. In that time he would have happily helped to improve the club as a whole. For instance bring youngester through, help get the best out of the academy etc. rather than focus on just top 4. You then have a very stable club, with hopefully a new stadium, a good academy, and a young and exciting squad ready for a younger manager to come in and work with. Now what we have got is the club in a mess again with no direction. That is what I am saying. Winning the league cup but sliding down to 8th in the league is not an improvement mate. Especially considering the rubbish spells that Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton and even Spurs had. Another 4 years with King Kenny in charge and you would be closer to relegation than any sort of stability. His whole approach is outdated, and I've no idea why you think he would have improved the youth system in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The simple truth is, if any non Liverpool legend (Be it Rafa, Mourinho, AVB, Hodgson, absolutely anyone) had taken over instead of Kenny and led us to 8th in the league, below Everton and a worse league performance than the year before (well the previous 55 years before) having spent a decent amount of money. Every single person would be screaming for his head and would not want to give them more money to spend or another year in charge.It is 100% pure rose tinted idolisation that has made anyone remotely question the decision. And no matter how much you say that that isn't it, you're completely and utterly wrong. Or this really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dking Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 @Kopite You just haven't got a clue and I'll leave it at that as there isn't a damn thing anybody can say, no matter how right, or how much sense they make, as you will always have those rosie goggles glued to your face. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 So you're willing to base Kenny's managerial ability around one poor season in the league? He had been out of management for years. He should have been given another year. As I say he would have seen the greater good and tried to help the club as much as he could. We now have to start all over again. If we end up with Martinez and finish 8th then what do we do? They could have given Kenny a few more years. Then when it was time for him to retire they could have spent a whole season recruiting the best man for the job, they could have come in the day Kenny stepped down and picked up where he left off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dking Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 See what I mean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 See what I mean Go on then explain what will be your solution if we hire Martinez and finish 8th again? Sack him too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dking Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Go on then explain what will be your solution if we hire Martinez and finish 8th again? Sack him too? Read what I said a few posts up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafParrot Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 It wasn't just a poor league season. It was a catastrophic league season. It was our worst league season almost in living memory. Maybe if it started badly and improved you could reason to give him another year, but it was the opposite. Started decently and went downhill faster than Eddie the Eagle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafParrot Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 It wasn't just finishing 8th. It was finishing so far away from our target in terms of points that it was untrue, especially when in November/December time we were doing ok. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Personally I think Martinez will be the wrong person to take on for the job, so it's a mistake to even hire him. Especially seeing as many fans have already written him off. But the fact is he's done nothing to take Wigan forward really, they're still just surviving every season as they were when he took over. But that doesn't change the fact that Kenny was never going to progress and massively under-achieved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Yay, the "what if" game. What if Hodgson had been given £100m and another year. Would we have finished 8th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 @kopite. we went backwards with kenny in charge, just look at what youve typed??? kenny has set this benchmark of 8th!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne'o Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 One thing that nees to be improved at Liverpool is the clubs scouting network, we keep buying to many grade b and C players and paying ot much for them, go back over the past 10 years, Dalglish, Benitez, Houllier, etc, they have all had millions to spend, and for years now every one including all the pundits keep saying we are 3 or 4 world class players short of where we need to be.. Kenny done what was needed and that was to bring the fans and club together, unfortunatly for him results didn't go in his favour, his press confrences were appauling and the Suarez row didn't help... If we appointed any manager in the world tomorrow, we would need to give him the best tools to work with and in this case his tools would be a better quality of player.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Go on then explain what will be your solution if we hire Martinez and finish 8th again? Sack him too? Another point on this. Kenny has taken the club backwards so the expectations will now have to be different. So finishing 8th will not actually be a step backwards from this year, and anything over that will be an improvement. Now, I know your argument now will be 'well why not let Kenny have another season with lower expectations, for stability and all that'. And the answer is because he's had such a shocking season. So yes, another manager might come in and only get 8th in his first season. But to emulate Kennys season this year they would have to finish 12th, be even more stupid in the media and ***** another £100m to do it. And you're right, I do keep ignoring the fact you won the carling cup, but that's just because the rest of the season has been so bad for a club like Liverpool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne'o Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 won the league cup you say.? we was lucky to win that, we couldn't even out class a Championship team.. all those KK lovers that think he should of had more time need to look threw the mist, if Hodgson was still at liverpool and finished 8th we would want his head.. i think you will find Kenny's media handling this season is one of the reason's he left as apposed to the 8th place finish.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebirds4life Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Should go for Paul Lambert, remarkable rise, experienced as a player, before entering management made sure he studied accurately etc, he's going to be a top 6 manager sooner or later imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulliner Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I do think Lambert is a stronger candidate than either Brendan Rodgers or Martinez. It's easy to forget Norwich had 2 successive promotions and still maintained their Premier League status fairly comfortably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebirds4life Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Beat Norwich 7-1 at Carrow Road with Colchester, joined Norwich who were mid-table/bottom half I believe and in the same season got promoted, got promoted then to the prem with hardly the best squad/large sums spent and then a comfortable spot in the Prem is some achievement. Cool as a cucumber too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubiscus Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Why are we looking at Rodgers or Martinez and not Holloway? - if we're going to go down that route he's actually achieved more over a longer period of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martplfc1 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I couldn't stand Holloway, he's awful. Only really want Rafa or Klopp. I'd be happy with Capello, AVB or Guardiola. Everyone else we've been strongly linked with I'd be so underwhelmed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubiscus Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I couldn't stand Holloway, he's awful.Only really want Rafa or Klopp. I'd be happy with Capello, AVB or Guardiola. Everyone else we've been strongly linked with I'd be so underwhelmed. I agree with your second part, my point was if we're going to be underwhelmed Holloway is a better, more successful, option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 holloways another warnock. good at what he does and has found his level and thats all your ever gonna get from him. not quite at the level of lambert and rodgers but i see what your saying. thankfully ayre has come out and said we are looking to hire the highest calibre manager we can find which hopefully means at least rafa like ive been saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martplfc1 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 He didn't keep Blackpool in the Premiership so not sure he's more successful, depends how you look at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Can't even be bothered looking back and arguing my point any more. The longer this goes on the more worried I get. Unless we appoint Rafa or someone even close to his ability then it's just another backwards step. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 yeah! we should get an established manager like rafa. not one of those unestablished managers for a little club that merely gets promoted or staves off relegation, like rafa was when valencia went and got him. what did rafa ever accomplish for them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclips Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 yeah! We should get an established manager like rafa. Not one of those unestablished managers for a little club that merely gets promoted or staves off relegation, like rafa was when valencia went and got him. What did rafa ever accomplish for them? not enough !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 but valencia could afford to take the risk, we cant. whats the point in getting an untested man in when the ***** gonna hit the fan after a few bad results and theyll end up getting sacked, i use the same argument for kenny. its false economy to have kept him on as most were even saying give him til xmas never mind see out his contract. so when the time comes then we'd have just set ourselves back another 6 month - 1 year for no good reason and it'd be false economy getting in the wrong man now just to 'give him a chance' when it'd just set us back even more in the long run unless we got lucky. it was time to move on from kenny. even my dad thought kenny was clueless and he's a bitter and more he said to me, 'are people having a laugh with all these managers we're supposed to be interested in? if you get any one of those mentioned then you are well and truly ****ed' and like i said, this is coming from a bitter. even he finds it ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebirds4life Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Established manager Di Matteo was fired as West Brom boss and had managed Milton Keynes, re-vamped a side, got Chelsea suddenly to a FA Cup winners medal and CL Final, as well as getting Torres to perform Pardrew before Newcastle manager, Charlton and West Ham boss/ Lower Prem level. After selling some key names e.e Nolan, Carroll, Enrique, Barton etc signed some quality, non household names and got them inches within 4th spot??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudester Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Suppose we get a tried and tested blue chip manager and it still hits the fan? Isn't it basically the same situation then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_cote_kid Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I think Lambert would be my preferred option all things considered. Not flashy at all and of course there is risk involved but I get the sense he's an intelligent guy with a decent grasp of tactics who would go about things the right way. Given his lower profile he would probably be happy working under a DoF too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 but valencia could afford to take the risk, we cant. that is nothing but literally pure arrogance talking. their fans are just as passionate. on the right night the mestalla is just as magical. they'd been stuck behind real madrid and barcelona for yonks and desperately needed a breakthrough after not being able to take the league, spending big bucks for players like aimar, carew and ayala and losing two finals under cuper. yeah...that story doesn't sound familiar at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Suppose we get a tried and tested blue chip manager and it still hits the fan? Isn't it basically the same situation then? yes but we've got to limit that risk. sure, theres risks with every appointment. but, WE ARE NOT A STEPPING STONE CLUB, if a manager comes here, then he should be here because he's already made it, served his apprenticeship and has a proven track record. not shouting at you, im shouting at everyone whos happy to lower our expectations before we've even started. we are still one of the 10 richest clubs on the planet and we have the fanbase to match, our ambitions for a manager should match that also. lowering our standards will ensure all the liverpool haters get what they want and we WILL fall into mid table obscurity, i can almost guarantee it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Suppose we get a tried and tested blue chip manager and it still hits the fan? Isn't it basically the same situation then? A bigger name is likely to get more time from the club and especially than fans, especially if he has "a plan". Depends how much **** actually hits the fan I guess. It was an awful lot this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el sid Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 lowering our standards will ensure all the liverpool haters get what they want Wow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 yes but we've got to limit that risk. sure, theres risks with every appointment. but, WE ARE NOT A STEPPING STONE CLUB, if a manager comes here, then he should be here because he's already made it, served his apprenticeship and has a proven track record.not shouting at you, im shouting at everyone whos happy to lower our expectations before we've even started. we are still one of the 10 richest clubs on the planet and we have the fanbase to match, our ambitions for a manager should match that also. lowering our standards will ensure all the liverpool haters get what they want and we WILL fall into mid table obscurity, i can almost guarantee it! Pretty much agree with this here. We might have finished 8th but we are still one of the biggest clubs on the planet. We have a higher revenue than Man City for instance, despite not playing Champions League. Difference being they have are owned by an oil rich country. With the right manager there is no reason why we can't challenge for the top 4 again, no matter how much fans of other teams try to tell us we can't. We should get the best manager available that will come to us, whoever he is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 right no stepping stones. already proven. we want to finish top of the table and lift the cl trophy again so our manager must have already done it before. otherwise how will we know if he can do it again. and has to have experience in the epl because we don't know if success in other, lesser leagues will translate here. the choice is clear: fergie or jose for next liverpool manager. they're literally the only options. anyone else would be beneath us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 wow **** off!!!! @daaave, your just being facetious, yeah thats right fergie and jose are the top 10 managers in the world im saying we need to get the best available not give a chance to someone unproven like rodgers or martinez. who was it who got ipswich to 4th a few years ago? burley was it? should we go and get him? he had a better season than rodgers has just had after promotion.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperclips Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Wonder what Arsenal and Utd will do when their managers leave, hopefully they will be in a worse predicament that us I have no idea who i want as out manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 your "best available" is solely working off of the metric of past results and reputation rather than ability, aptitude, ideas and growth. this is how clubs ends up with the tinkerman in charge. and you didn't exactly refute the kernel of my argument. if the only people we can consider have unimpeachable records, then continental cups, league titles and domestic experience should absolutely be prerequisites. what if best available isn't good enough? we wouldn't want to lower our expectations and our standards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 your "best available" is solely working off of the metric of past results and reputation rather than ability, aptitude, ideas and growth. this is how clubs ends up with the tinkerman in charge. and you didn't exactly refute the kernel of my argument. if the only people we can consider have unimpeachable records, then continental cups, league titles and domestic experience should absolutely be prerequisites. what if best available isn't good enough? we wouldn't want to lower our expectations and our standards They should be very important variables in the choice. Otherwise we may as well just stick the names of 10 managers in a hat and pick one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 They should be very important variables in the choice. Otherwise we may as well just stick the names of 10 managers in a hat and pick one. so who qualifies then? "standards and expectations" and all that rubbish is just empty sloganeering. I'd like specifics. I'd like some of you lot to recognize the corner you're so diligently painting yourselves into. especially when someone so casually tries to pretend there's this wide swath of difference between liverpool and valencia and the circumstances that led valencia to go with an unproven person like tenerife manager rafa benitez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 your "best available" is solely working off of the metric of past results and reputation rather than ability, aptitude, ideas and growth. but do you not think that ability, aptitude, ideas and growth AND results would be a better bet? why do they have to be separate for you? like ive already said, we want to take as many variables out of the equation we can and get as near as 100% manager we can get. of course thats impossible but thats what we have to aim for to give us the best chance of succeeding in the long run and if that fails then it fails. theres no guarantees in football, we all know that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafParrot Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Valencia were just behind Barca and Real Madrid in Spain, and there wasn't much fear of them dropping away anytime soon. I have a very real fear that we won't be anywhere near challenging for the top 4 for a long time if we mess this appointment up. Thats why I want us to go for a top manager, and not risk it with a promising guy that could backfire when he's actually nowhere near ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofighter23 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 so who qualifies then? "standards and expectations" and all that rubbish is just empty sloganeering. I'd like specifics. I'd like some of you lot to recognize the corner you're so diligently painting yourselves into. especially when someone so casually tries to pretend there's this wide swath of difference between liverpool and valencia and the circumstances that led valencia to go with an unproven person like tenerife manager rafa benitez. dont know the circumstances for valencia, maybe they got the best manager they could afford, maybe they took that punt you want us to take, idk. ive not said anywhere it cant or wont happen again, you seem to think that if we took the punt then it will happen again without any reasoned thought going into it. can you guarantee rodgers would take this club onto bigger and better things? before kenny got sacked plenty where saying theyre gonna suffer from 2nd season syndrome next season like pretty much every other promoted team and battle relegation yet now he's considered one of the best options we've got. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafParrot Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Another difference between Benitez and Martinez is that Rafa spent a long time at Real Madrid, both as a player early on, then as a coach. Martinez has never really played or coached at the highest level, or even been in that environment. The highest level he's ever been at was starting his career at Real Zaragoza, where he made 1 appearance before moving on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Valencia were just behind Barca and Real Madrid in Spain, and there wasn't much fear of them dropping away anytime soon. I have a very real fear that we won't be anywhere near challenging for the top 4 for a long time if we mess this appointment up. Thats why I want us to go for a top manager, and not risk it with a promising guy that could backfire when he's actually nowhere near ready. the opposite case could easily be made. they had worked so hard to get up as high as they did. 3rd (iirc) behind deportivo and barcelona. 2 straight cl finals. why would they risk that actual success with an "unproven" manager? surely they had more to risk going with the new while they're on top that a team would who hadn't achieved similar recent results. in fact, to mostly repeat myself again, you could say that when rafa left, they played the same high reputation, "proven" card that you want liverpool to play. it got them ranieri, 7th and out of europe in the group stages. nowhere should this be read as an anti-rafa post. I would be thrilled to get him back as I've made clear basically every day since the day he left the club. but I want a guy to come in for an interview and explain clearly the future he sees in everything from the transfer market to team tactics. on a fundamental level, I agree with the people who say we should look forward and not back. I think rafa is unique in that he has a highly flexible and inquisitive mind and would not be bound to the players, tactics or methods that got him success with us before. but I also believe that young, hungry managers like martinez and avb should have a chance to explain their own visions and be rated on their merits rather than go through some perfunctory hr process where you sift through cvs, pick the one you like best, and make the interview process a formality. slavery to "proven" got us roy. never again. I'd rather risk a manager who is as widely respected among cognoscenti as martinez and let him work his way out of the deep end than go through that again. even if we fail, there was no guarantee of success either way and we failed remaining ambitious rather than bet hedging and petrification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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