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SlayerX

England/Sir Alex Ferguson

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I know that this has been discussed on numerous occasions but I do think that this is a major error in Football Manager:

England winning the 2010 world cup.

Arsenal have won the European Cup in the previous 2 seasons, before that manchester united were runners up and then before that it was Liverpool.

My nephew has played about 10 years of Football Manager 2007 and England have won the world cup three years in a row, as well as a couple of european championships.

This isn't anti-England post, this is just a "I want a more realistic game" thread. By all intents and purposes England will probably never win the world cup again, never mind the european championships.

People are going to say that "It's difficult to differentiate good players from good teams" but why should it be? Why can't you programme FM so that you can build and create a team ethic as well as a team ethos depending largely on the type of players that you have available to you.

Another thing that annoys me (and it has done since the days of Championship Manager 4) is the way that Sir Alex Ferguson is portrayed on FM is a bit of a disgrace.

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row and is a whisper from another european triumph and yet I've never known Alex Ferguson to be in charge of Manchester United for more than two seasons on CM/FM.

I think it's time for the Football Manager team to get it right in terms of the realistic achievements of the England nation team as well as the future of Sir Alex Ferguson.

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I know that this has been discussed on numerous occasions but I do think that this is a major error in Football Manager:

England winning the 2010 world cup.

Arsenal have won the European Cup in the previous 2 seasons, before that manchester united were runners up and then before that it was Liverpool.

My nephew has played about 10 years of Football Manager 2007 and England have won the world cup three years in a row, as well as a couple of european championships.

This isn't anti-England post, this is just a "I want a more realistic game" thread. By all intents and purposes England will probably never win the world cup again, never mind the european championships.

People are going to say that "It's difficult to differentiate good players from good teams" but why should it be? Why can't you programme FM so that you can build and create a team ethic as well as a team ethos depending largely on the type of players that you have available to you.

Another thing that annoys me (and it has done since the days of Championship Manager 4) is the way that Sir Alex Ferguson is portrayed on FM is a bit of a disgrace.

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row and is a whisper from another european triumph and yet I've never known Alex Ferguson to be in charge of Manchester United for more than two seasons on CM/FM.

I think it's time for the Football Manager team to get it right in terms of the realistic achievements of the England nation team as well as the future of Sir Alex Ferguson.

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Fergie a bit of a hard one though. You never know when he will go and I'd much prefer he retired early than went to another club. Oh, and he has not won 10 premiership titles in a row.

England are a tough one too becuase no matter what people say, England has one of the best starting 11 in world football but I do agree they tend to do well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> By all intents and purposes England will probably never win the world cup again, never mind the european championships. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tell you're Scottish icon_razz.gif

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I play FM Handheld and I've just finished the first season of my liverpool game in which Alex Ferguson was sacked. Man Utd were 4th in the league and into Champs League semi finals.

I personally don't like the bloke and would find it amusing if he was sacked in real life but let's face it that isn't going to happen. The man is a legend at that club.

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On my current game, England have been no further than the quarter-finals of the World Cup in three attempts, no further than the European semis in two.

European Cup is fairly well spread, with a little trend to England (which could be entirely realistic).

Oh, and England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row and is a whisper from another european triumph and yet I've never known Alex Ferguson to be in charge of Manchester United for more than two seasons on CM/FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Usually because he retires though.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh, and England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I literally cried laughing. Thank you dude.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

Oh, and England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you Doctor Who?

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With the right manager, England can to wonders IRL.

Capello seems to be a good manager for England because he makes sure they know that's he's in charge, and they won't be playing for England if they think otherwise.

But we'll see how England fares this time around.

But in the game, yeah, England may be a little bit overexaggerated, I personally feel Michael Owen is a bit overrated in the game, he plays like he's in his prime when really, he's not that good anymore. But it does show you that England do have the potential to be World Cup winners, but they just need to get their act together. Forget their egos and work as a team.

As for Sir Alex Ferguson, yeah, it is sad to see he gets the sack early on. But I've never seen him go to another team. He always sits in the Free Agents list.

I think for Fergie, if it can be implimented is if he gets the sack on the game, he'll Retire.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh, and England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you must not be planning on qualifying for a good few decades then.

Now I am Scottish, but all biases aside, your looking at quarter finals for England, in both comps, because IMO, if they are a top 10 in the world side, then only just.

At this point in time you have a collection of great players, but they are not excellent, and also cannot work together, in a way similar to the Dutch side

Just look at where the starting 11 of each national side who challenge for the world cup play their football. Speaks volumes regarding the lack of demand for English players abroad

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Anyway, on topic, Fergie could go anytime IRL, He's getting on in years, and personally, it wouldn't over suprise me is he went if Utd win the Champions League.

As for England, I do agree that something needs to be done at international level in the game along the lines of squad togetherness. In FM, there seems to be no form of relationship and squad ethic at internaional level, when IRL, you only need to look at England, and at the last World Cup, Brazil, just to see how important it is. But all this should be due to the manager, and not something programmed into the game.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

England have won the world cup three years in a row </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's just impossible.

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Yep, I am Scottish (good guess icon_wink.gif)

I'm trying hard not to be biased here. If we conducted a poll with regards to england being over-rated in Football Manager then I think there would be a majority who would vote that england are over-rated. Even the majority of english people that I've spoken to on here have agreed with me that england should be toned down.

The comment about fergie retiring at any time, which is try, but SI have been predicting that his retirment is just round the corner since CM4.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frame:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

England have won the world cup three years in a row </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's just impossible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

I don't mind the english premiership teams doing well in europe, because this season IRL has proven that premiership sides can match anyone. I'm just concerned with the england scenario.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh, and England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you must not be planning on qualifying for a good few decades then.

Now I am Scottish, but all biases aside, your looking at quarter finals for England, in both comps, because IMO, if they are a top 10 in the world side, then only just.

At this point in time you have a collection of great players, but they are not excellent, and also cannot work together, in a way similar to the Dutch side </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with "cannot" work together. It's more "currently do not" work together as a team.

The right manager can change that.

Winning any knock-out competition requires a little luck and I'd put England in a small group of teams that, with a little luck and the right organisation, have the ability to win the prize.

Obviously my confident statement is part tongue-in-cheek, but I won't be shocked to see it happen. It is a plausible outcome for 2010 or 2014.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just look at where the starting 11 of each national side who challenge for the world cup play their football. Speaks volumes regarding the lack of demand for English players abroad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one interpretation. Another is, with the money in the EPL, there's no incentive to move.

Players like Ferdinand, Cole, Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard would all be targets for the big European clubs if they felt they could get them.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

Yep, I am Scottish (good guess icon_wink.gif)

I'm trying hard not to be biased here. If we conducted a poll with regards to england being over-rated in Football Manager then I think there would be a majority who would vote that england are over-rated. Even the majority of english people that I've spoken to on here have agreed with me that england should be toned down.

The comment about fergie retiring at any time, which is try, but SI have been predicting that his retirment is just round the corner since CM4. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So have the mass-media. Some say he'll go after the Champions League if they win (I don't agree).

And even the man himself said he was off a few years back.

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Most times I've Ferguson is sacked actully, as is Wenger which while not impossible is not very realistic in the time frame in which it happens, i.e. two/three seasons in. Maybe higher loyalty from clubs to certain managers could be introduced to stop Man United sacking Ferguson if Man United are 4th mid-season. I wouldn't reccomend higher loyalty all round though, as I remember one old game were the Celtic chairman had 20 for loyalty and it took him two/three dreadful seasons to sack a terrible manager.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just look at where the starting 11 of each national side who challenge for the world cup play their football. Speaks volumes regarding the lack of demand for English players abroad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one interpretation. Another is, with the money in the EPL, there's no incentive to move.

Players like Ferdinand, Cole, Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard would all be targets for the big European clubs if they felt they could get them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO Gerrard and Cole are probably the only players in that list who could play regularly for Inter, Barca, Real Madrid, Roma etc

The others could be rotation players but would never be regulars for the top teams.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fonz:

I remember one old game were the Celtic chairman had 20 for loyalty and it took him two/three dreadful seasons to sack a terrible manager. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it Gordon Strachan? icon_razz.gif Jokes jokes, I mean, I've disliked him since he came, but he has done a good job so the fans should get off his back a bit, but he is a bit annoying isn't he?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just look at where the starting 11 of each national side who challenge for the world cup play their football. Speaks volumes regarding the lack of demand for English players abroad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one interpretation. Another is, with the money in the EPL, there's no incentive to move.

Players like Ferdinand, Cole, Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard would all be targets for the big European clubs if they felt they could get them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO Gerrard and Cole are probably the only players in that list who could play regularly for Inter, Barca, Real Madrid, Roma etc

The others could be rotation players but would never be regulars for the top teams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whereas I think there are others beyond those few who could be first choice at other big clubs. And I'd put Ferdinand ahead of any English player on current form.

All opions are subjective though.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row and is a whisper from another european triumph and yet I've never known Alex Ferguson to be in charge of Manchester United for more than two seasons on CM/FM.

Usually because he retires though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my games he normally gets sacked for finishing second which is totally unrealistic i think.

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Are you saying Ferdinand wouldn't walk into any team in Europe? You haven't watched much Man Utd then. Rooney could too and you could add JT to Dave's list.

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There are numerous reasons why, in my opinion, England will not win the world cup again. One of the reasons is that there's so much money in the premiership, because of this there will be an even bigger influx of foreigners. This is ultimately going to stunt the growth of England.

As far as all the players England have now, whilst they are really good players they just aren't as creative as Brazil or Argentina. Would Machester United have won the premiership without Ronaldo? Would Arsenal be such a force if they didn't have Fabregas? What about Chelsea Drogba?

Lack of creative players is the main reason why Sven played in a less than flamboyant manner. Fabio will do exactly the same. I'm not saying that you can't win things if you play "negative" football, of course you can, just look at Manchester United against Barcelona (Which was perhaps the greatest technically defensive that match that I've seen) and Scotland verses France (twice) and also Rangers' exploits in europe.

England fans don't expect this, though. They want to play in a more expansive manner, which just won't happen.

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OK, firstly as to England being overrated in FM, I don't think they are. The problem is to do with the amount of influence a good/bad manager has on performance. Eriksson got England to the QF's while McClaren - with a similar team - failed to qualify. Surely then, with Capello, England would do well in game?

A lot of English players would walk into a lot of top European teams. Gerrard, Ferdinand, Hargreaves, Joe Cole (why he doesnt play more for scum I have no idea), Rooney, Terry, maybe even Lampard. Then others would be pushing for a starting place: the whole of the rest of the squad except Cashley scum cheating bum Cole would.

The reason why other teams can do better than England is their players have generally got more experience playing in different top European leagues. For England, only Hargreaves, Beckham and Owen have played outside England. With the money in the EPL, other players will come in, forcing English talent to look abroad for first team football and the national team will improve.

Oh, and we have the 2nd best U21 team in Europe (well top four, but we could have beaten everyone else but Holland), so why wouldnt they be able to win the WC in game?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frame:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

England have won the world cup three years in a row </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's just impossible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

I don't mind the english premiership teams doing well in europe, because this season IRL has proven that premiership sides can match anyone. I'm just concerned with the england scenario. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"impossible" is slightly different from "highly unlikely"

We know that on paper, according to the researchers that the England team has the ability to be one of the best teams in the world, much like Spain.

If every World Cup is independent then England will have the same probability of winning it every time. Therefore it is possible that England may win all three times, just like getting a 1 in a dice roll 3 times in a row.

I think England should be treated the same as any other team, you can't say that the FA would have a preferred move of "making bad decisions".

Also I remember some people were saying that it won't be an All English final because it has never happened before, thats along the same lines isn't it? History is used to learn lessons from the past it's not an indication of the future.

I think the problem is that the AI managers don't feel pressure, it doesn't affect their decisions so they are always able to perform at the best of their abilities. Jobs should have a pressure setting depending on the board and the reputation, that affects some AI managers badly and makes others do better.

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But the world cup is only once every four years...

..he's right, it is impossible.

(for the record, in my game england have won 0 world cups and 1 euro champs up to 2070)

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I'm in 2018 and England haven't won anything yet, they haven't even come close.

I do get what you're saying about the Champions League though, and the quality of the English teams is unbearable. I'm Bayern Munich and I usually get paired with one of them in the latter stages, my team is very good but they totally destroy me and the football played is amazing. It irritates me that it seems impossible for us to replicate a playing style that the AI uses with a team that has a lot of success. In my other save Juve play amazing football and it's just too hard to cope with, I can win leagues but I can't seem to get my team to play to the AI standard.

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you cant say its impossible, who knows what the situation will be like in say 12 years, we could have the best team in the world, bu now id say its pretty unlickely, but for epople to say never and its impossible then theyre are a little stupid becasue you cant be that certains of anything.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you cant say its impossible, who knows what the situation will be like in say 12 years, we could have the best team in the world, bu now id say its pretty unlickely, but for epople to say never and its impossible then theyre are a little stupid becasue you cant be that certains of anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just noticed your location comments and thought you might enjoy; Football Quotes the Keegan Collection

I particularly liked, 'Argentina won't be at Euro 2000 because they're from South America.'

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Who said that only Gerrard and Cole would be good enough to play regularly for the top European sides? Rubbish.

Ferdinand has probably been the best defender in Europe this season and Terry is world class. Rooney would always start for any top team just because of his work rate and Lampard is brilliant for Chelsea, just not for England. Then there are midfielders such as Carrick, Hargrieves and Barry who all play brilliantly at club level but who are generally not spectacular at International level, plus potentially excellent players like Micah Richards and Ashley Young. To be honest England have got oe of the best first 11's around if you look purely at club performances. The trouble is the last manager was useless beyond belief and Sven did pretty well and was pretty unluck, although I don't believe he was that good anyway.

With a good manager, a bit of effort and some luck there's nothing stopping England winning a tournament soon. In FM07 England weren't particularly over-rated but McClaren certainly was. Under Capello we don't know how they'll do but in the game the quality of the manager should have a more direct effect on the performances of the team.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you cant say its impossible, who knows what the situation will be like in say 12 years, we could have the best team in the world, bu now id say its pretty unlickely, but for epople to say never and its impossible then theyre are a little stupid becasue you cant be that certains of anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just noticed your location comments and thought you might enjoy; Football Quotes the Keegan Collection

I particularly liked, 'Argentina won't be at Euro 2000 because they're from South America.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My personal favourite is:

'He can't speak Turkey, but you can tell he's delighted.'

Gobble, gobble icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">England WILL win the World Cup again, within the next two tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the world cup has alternated from south america to europe since 1962. so if that trend keeps going they're not winning the next one and then all their 'star' players will be too old for the one after that.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Ferdinand has probably been the best defender in Europe this season and Terry is world class. Rooney would always start for any top team just because of his work rate and Lampard is brilliant for Chelsea, just not for England. Then there are midfielders such as Carrick, Hargrieves and Barry who all play brilliantly at club level but who are generally not spectacular at International level, plus potentially excellent players like Micah Richards and Ashley Young. To be honest England have got oe of the best first 11's around if you look purely at club performances. The trouble is the last manager was useless beyond belief and Sven did pretty well and was pretty unluck, although I don't believe he was that good anyway.

With a good manager, a bit of effort and some luck there's nothing stopping England winning a tournament soon. In FM07 England weren't particularly over-rated but McClaren certainly was. Under Capello we don't know how they'll do but in the game the quality of the manager should have a more direct effect on the performances of the team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt Ferdinand is a good player, and he has had an outstanding season (but has been no better than Vidic) but to say he would walk into any top European team is a bit over the top, he could play for one of these sides, but as semi-regular at best

John Terry is not world class. John Terry is a talented defender, but he is no where near world class, and IMO would struggle for a starting place at Man Utd never mind Barca, AC Milan, etc.

Rooney would start purely because of his work rate? By that statement, your suggesting Kenny Miller would start for any top European team? Because I've never seen a player give more for his team week in week out than Kenny Miller, but he's not exactly Premiership quality.

Lampard is good but is one of the most overrated players in world football (as is Owen Hargreaves) IMO Carrick is a better player than Lampard (and Hargreaves), but because he scores regularly he his hailed as one of the best in the world! If it wern't for his goals, Lampard wouldn't be considered one of the top midfielders in the world.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If it wern't for his goals, Lampard wouldn't be considered one of the top midfielders in the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And neither would Ronaldo. Its about what they offer to the team, Lampard offers goals from midfield. Thats like saying if Maldini had poor positioning, he would never have been world class for as long as he has.

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This is turning into an off topic discussion, personally I agree with Chopper99 (begrudgingly).

I'm not Terry's biggest fan, but I would sugegst that he and Ferdinand would both walk into most teams atm. Think of Europes top teams, Barcelona where Milito and Marquez are not up to scratch, Materazzi at Inter icon_biggrin.gif , Kaladze at Milan. Perhaps Real with Ramos and Cannavaro have a better pairing but both Ferdinand and Terry have age on their side (is Cannavaro not turning 35 this year?).

I was discussing Rooney at work today, a lot of people say he is overrated IRL, but I think that is because we think of him as a striker (which he normally plays for England) if you think of him as an attacking midfielder in the Scholes ilk then he is one of the best around. Great passing, movement, long shots, vision, ability to track back. He's one of the first names on the team sheet every time.

I agree on the Lampard front, I think he is definately overrated and IMO should be 4th in line for the CM roles especially aftyer some of Carrick's performances this season.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

No doubt Ferdinand is a good player, and he has had an outstanding season (but has been no better than Vidic) but to say he would walk into any top European team is a bit over the top, he could play for one of these sides, but as semi-regular at best </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. To say Ferdinand would only be a semi-regular at clubs such as Barcelona, Real Madrid or Inter is laughable. He's one of the best technical centre backs around and when partnered with a top class, no nonsense defender like Vidic they form a world class defensive partnership. No team would turn down the chance to have Ferdinand as one of their two centre backs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">John Terry is not world class. John Terry is a talented defender, but he is no where near world class, and IMO would struggle for a starting place at Man Utd never mind Barca, AC Milan, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again absolute rubbish. Terry is one of the best readers of the game there is, he would start every game possible for Man Utd, or any other team for that matter. You claim he's 'no-where near world class'. In that case please name me 10 centre backs who are better than him?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Rooney would start purely because of his work rate? By that statement, your suggesting Kenny Miller would start for any top European team? Because I've never seen a player give more for his team week in week out than Kenny Miller, but he's not exactly Premiership quality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, no. I think anyone with any sense would realise that that's not what I meant. Rooney's work rate is second to none, and he can do something with the ball once that work rate gets him into the right position or manages to win him the ball. So add his natural talent to his amazing work rate and, despite his lack of goals this season, you have a player that any manager would love to have in their team.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lampard is good but is one of the most overrated players in world football (as is Owen Hargreaves) IMO Carrick is a better player than Lampard (and Hargreaves), but because he scores regularly he his hailed as one of the best in the world! If it wern't for his goals, Lampard wouldn't be considered one of the top midfielders in the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some facts (admittedly taken from Wiki but they make the point very well):

2004-2005. Lampard scored 19 goals as Chelsea won their first title in 50 years. He won the Football Writers Association Footballer of the year award and was described by both Carlos Alberto and Johann Cruyff (two people who know a lot more about football than you) as one of Europes best midfielders.

2005-2006. This season he scored 20 goals from midfield and was described Matthias Sammer as the 'best player in the world'. He was runner up to Ronaldinho in both the European and World player of the year awards.

2006-2007. Lampard scored 21 goals from midfield including a chipped equaliser against Barcelona at the Nou Camp and two goals in the FA cup quarter final that helped Chelsea come back from 3-1 down against Tottenham.

I think that's enough to show he's not over-rated, he just playes rubbish for England.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

This is turning into an off topic discussion, personally I agree with Chopper99 (begrudgingly). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It actually feels better when people only agree with you begrudgingly icon_wink.gificon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

It actually feels better when people only agree with you begrudgingly icon_wink.gificon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha understandable.

Just to clarify it wasn't begrudging because it was you, as a Northern Ireland fan it was a bitter pill to swallow admitting those England players were really rather good icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

By all intents and purposes England will probably never win the world cup again, never mind the european championships. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No he hasn't. He has won 10 Premiership titles in the past 16 years.

As for the point to the rest of your post, I dont agree with it. From my experience it depends what leagues you have up and running. I had a game with Italian, Spanish, and German leagues running, and in 8 seasons only once did a team playing outside those countries win the European cup.

As for who wins international tournaments, the only countries I ever see winning major competitions are France and Argentina. No English success in there at all.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

By all intents and purposes England will probably never win the world cup again, never mind the european championships. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:

Ferguson has just won 10 premiership titled in a row </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No he hasn't. He has won 10 Premiership titles in the past 16 years.

As for the point to the rest of your post, I dont agree with it. From my experience it depends what leagues you have up and running. I had a game with Italian, Spanish, and German leagues running, and in 8 seasons only once did a team playing outside those countries win the European cup.

As for who wins international tournaments, the only countries I ever see winning major competitions are France and Argentina. No English success in there at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn. I don't know how that got past me. I didn't mean in a row, obviously.

Well, I have 10 countries with around 30 leagues running, so I don't know if that has a real influence on it.

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Originally posted by chopper99:

In that case please name me 10 centre backs who are better than him?

Maldini, Puyol, Nesta, Sergio Ramos, Cordoba, Carragher, Vidic, Naldo, Milito, Cannavaro.

Shall I go on?

Daniel Alves, Zanetti, Heitinga, Lahm, Gamberini, Pannucci, Mertsacker, Simic, Jankulovski, Cris, Kaladze, Mathijsen, Lucio, Ferdinand (OK, given the discussion that's a bit cheeky but still)

Granted not every single one of these players is BETTER than Terry, but there's 24 on that last and I'd say at least 20 are as good as Terry, most being better.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

John Terry is not world class. John Terry is a talented defender, but he is no where near world class, and IMO would struggle for a starting place at Man Utd never mind Barca, AC Milan, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again absolute rubbish. Terry is one of the best readers of the game there is, he would start every game possible for Man Utd, or any other team for that matter. You claim he's 'no-where near world class'. In that case please name me 10 centre backs who are better than him?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Rooney would start purely because of his work rate? By that statement, your suggesting Kenny Miller would start for any top European team? Because I've never seen a player give more for his team week in week out than Kenny Miller, but he's not exactly Premiership quality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, no. I think anyone with any sense would realise that that's not what I meant. Rooney's work rate is second to none, and he can do something with the ball once that work rate gets him into the right position or manages to win him the ball. So add his natural talent to his amazing work rate and, despite his lack of goals this season, you have a player that any manager would love to have in their team.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I've deleted the things that I agree with to shorten the post.

Terry isn't world class IMO, but only because the term world class is over used. Last year Southgate called Woodgate world class, then promptly played him as third choice when Huth was fit icon_biggrin.gif

Terry is proberbly in the top 10 in the world. Cannavaro, Ferdinand, Carvalho, Nesta, Puyol and Ramos depending on whether you consider him a DC or DR are all better than him. I'd say the top 4 are "world class", which would be four of the 5 I mentioned minus Ramos.

You've sort of gone back on yourself with your Rooney statement icon_wink.gif. First you say that he'd get in a team purely on work rate, then you say that it's because of his talent as well. I wouldn't think that Rooney would get in the first teams of any of the other major teams in European football. He's too inconistent and will never be a 20 goal a season striker. His work rate isn't exactly top class either. Perhaps if he converted to AMC he would be amoung the best, but MU don't have many strikers (Tevez is fine, Saha's been poor, Manucho/ Campbell/ Brandy /Welbeck all unproven) and a lot of good CMs so that's unlikely to happen.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

Originally posted by chopper99:

In that case please name me 10 centre backs who are better than him?

Maldini, Puyol, Nesta, Sergio Ramos, Cordoba, Carragher, Vidic, Naldo, Milito, Cannavaro.

Shall I go on?

Daniel Alves, Zanetti, Heitinga, Lahm, Gamberini, Pannucci, Mertsacker, Simic, Jankulovski, Cris, Kaladze, Mathijsen, Lucio, Ferdinand (OK, given the discussion that's a bit cheeky but still)

Granted not every single one of these players is BETTER than Terry, but there's 24 on that last and I'd say at least 20 are as good as Terry, most being better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of the first 10 you mentioned, I'd only rate Nesta, Ramos and Vidic better then Terry, with Cannavaro being on a par. Theres no way I'd rate Maldini, Cordoba, Carragher, Naldo or Milito better then Terry. Maldini is past it now. As a left back, he was the best defender in the world, but having moved into the middle due to his lack of pace, he just doesn't look as good anymore. He still does a good job, but to say he's better then Terry is laughable. Carragher and Cordoba are also fine defenders, but better then Terry? No way. Naldo is certainly not as good as Terry either. He certainly has the potential to be one of the top defenders in the world, but IMO, he isn't there yet. As for Milito, I don't really rate him that highly. He's too light weight for my liking and easily out muscled in the air. Put him up against Drogba and he'd be eaten alive. Finally, onto Puyol. Like Milito, I don't rate him as a centre back. He does a good enough job, but for me, he should be a right back, and I feel he plays better here. I personally feel that he's a good centre back, but a great right back.

As for the second list, most of them are full backs, and of the centre backs, only Ferdinand and Lucio are comparable to Terry, with Ferdinand being the only one who I'd say is better. As a Liverpool fan, it really hurts me to say this, but at this moment in time, I would rate Ferdinand as the best centre back in the world. And what about Carvalho? Does he not deserve a mention?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

Originally posted by chopper99:

In that case please name me 10 centre backs who are better than him?

Maldini, Puyol, Nesta, Sergio Ramos, Cordoba, Carragher, Vidic, Naldo, Milito, Cannavaro.

Shall I go on?

Daniel Alves, Zanetti, Heitinga, Lahm, Gamberini, Pannucci, Mertsacker, Simic, Jankulovski, Cris, Kaladze, Mathijsen, Lucio, Ferdinand (OK, given the discussion that's a bit cheeky but still)

Granted not every single one of these players is BETTER than Terry, but there's 24 on that last and I'd say at least 20 are as good as Terry, most being better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have got to be having a laugh.

For starters, Alves, Zanetti, Lahm, Panucci, Jankulovski are not CB's.

I lost hope for you as soon as you mentioned Carragher in the same breath as Vidic and Nesta.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Terry is one of the best readers of the game there is </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No he's not. If he was then he would not have to make so many reckless challenges. A good reader of the game should never have to make anything like the amount of last-ditch tackles that John Terry does.

He merely looks spectacular with his defending, and that is not how you should defend.

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I swear he was sacked even after he won the title in my game and that was the first season. and He didnt retire but remained free agent. It is really really unrealistic but who cares when you are Arsenal fan icon_biggrin.gif

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Im not sure this thread should still be here icon_biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as all the players England have now, whilst they are really good players they just aren't as creative as Brazil or Argentina. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely right. icon14.gif Look at Rooney, he plays very well for United when surrounded by creative players like Ronaldo, Anderson etc, but with England he is quiet.

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