The AI really needs improving

[ThisIsMyStory1874]

Not sure if I am echoing this, but this FM seems far too easy. High pressing tactic seems to overwhelm the AI and they can't cope with it. Me and my mate have an Old Firm network save, where we both play high pressing football.

Just finished our first season and we both stomped the league, which is expected. However, we both made it to the last 16 in the Champions league and finished top in groups that both teams would have taken 0 points from in real life. For example, my group was Real Madrid, AC Milan and Benfica and his was Man City, Atletico and Galatasaray. I would love scottish teams to do well in Europe, but to qualify out of those groups 6 months into an FM save seems wrong.

Kyogo has scored 49 goals in 45 games and has broken Henrik Larssons 20+ year record in the first season. I have also managed to score 120 goals with 5 games left to play, which breaks a record that's stood for nearly 100 years 🤣. 

The problem with all this is that because the players massively over-achieve, they start getting well over the top bids for them. For example, 45 million for Kyogo after 6 months into a season and 40 million for Abada. It just feels so broken to an extent that its boring. 

[greenz81]

 

Ive been breezing through the leagues and initally thought i was doing really well. But im assuming its the current issues alot of people seem to be having. I havent really heard a complaint about the game being too hard! 

[ThisIsMyStory1874]

7 minutes ago, greenz81 said:

 

Ive been breezing through the leagues and initally thought i was doing really well. But im assuming its the current issues alot of people seem to be having. I havent really heard a complaint about the game being too hard! 

It might be the easiest FM I've ever played, which is sad because apart from the influx in long range efforts going in this year, (which isn't enough to complain about) the general match engine seems really good. 

I'm worried about the lifespan of this game if it stays as easy as it is.

[trevjim]

According to the announced features it was supposed to be better but it's not improved. 

 

I get the impression the ME is as good as they can get it, and any big changes have negative knock on effects, so not much changes each version 

 

Here's hoping FM 25 with a new engine is an improvement on things like this. 

 

 

[ThisIsMyStory1874]

13 minutes ago, trevjim said:

According to the announced features it was supposed to be better but it's not improved. 

 

I get the impression the ME is as good as they can get it, and any big changes have negative knock on effects, so not much changes each version 

 

Here's hoping FM 25 with a new engine is an improvement on things like this. 

 

 

The match engine in general feels better and is more reactive in this version, but the game as a whole feels 100x easier to over-achieve which is a total backwards step IMHO. Not sure I can play this for a full year as it will get boring fast.

[evilpimp972]

How can a single person each and every year correct most of the AI problems and Si cant ? 

This mod has been out for years ! 

[christopher.w.hohn]

1 hour ago, evilpimp972 said:

How can a single person each and every year correct most of the AI problems and Si cant ? 

This mod has been out for years ! 

The realism mod?

[evilpimp972]

il y a 6 minutes, christopher.w.hohn a dit :

The realism mod?

Yes. 

[SergeiG]

I think I am done with FM after 20 years straight of buying the game(since CM03/04).

Every year someone opens the annual "FM is too easy" thread(I did it for the last 2 versions) and nothing ever is fixed.

They promised to fix the transfer AI, but they made it worse and easier to crush your rivals in the market, it feels like a grown man boxing with a 10-year-old child, the same with player interactions. Every conversation feels like I am talking with my 3-year-old nephew that can't hear the word no and starts crying and throwing stuff, its easier to just sell such a player and replace him then to try and "fix" the situation.

[ceefax the cat]

3 hours ago, christopher.w.hohn said:

The realism mod?

what's that then? I've heard of DaveIncid's 'Increase Realism' megapack with lots of extra leagues etc (which is absolutely fantastic and a must-have) but nothing that affects the AI / difficulty of the game overall

Edited November 7, 2023 by ceefax the cat

[ceefax the cat]

16 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

I think I am done with FM after 20 years straight of buying the game(since CM03/04).

Every year someone opens the annual "FM is too easy" thread(I did it for the last 2 versions) and nothing ever is fixed.

They promised to fix the transfer AI, but they made it worse and easier to crush your rivals in the market, it feels like a grown man boxing with a 10-year-old child, the same with player interactions. Every conversation feels like I am talking with my 3-year-old nephew that can't hear the word no and starts crying and throwing stuff, its easier to just sell such a player and replace him then to try and "fix" the situation.

The interactions aren't worth bothering with. Players turning on you because you congratulated them on their first international cap etc etc. Just ignore or breeze through them and correct it in the editor if they irrationally flip out. If you can resist the urge to cheat (which isn't hard because the game is ruined as soon as you do) then the editor is great for just debugging as you go and taking some of the stress out of those broken features.

Edited November 7, 2023 by ceefax the cat

[Daveincid]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb evilpimp972:

single

I'm married

vor 4 Stunden schrieb evilpimp972:

How can a single person each and every year correct most of the AI problems and Si cant ? 

This mod has been out for years ! 

I do see improvements in terms of AI/squad building etc. compared to vanilla FM23.

There are indeed issues which are known but I'm optimistic that SI does their best to improve it.

There are so many other things which were fixed and nobody noticed them so far (Ticket-prices for example ;))

[SergeiG]

29 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

The interactions aren't worth bothering with. Players turning on you because you congratulated them on their first international cap etc etc. Just ignore or breeze through them and correct it in the editor if they irrationally flip out. If you can resist the urge to cheat (which isn't hard because the game is ruined as soon as you do) then the editor is great for just debugging as you go and taking some of the stress out of those broken features.

Thats just peachy...I have to spend extra money to cheat because certain aspect of the game is so broken it makes it unusable.

[sthptngomad76]

50 minutes ago, janrzm said:

I have this fear that the more casual players SI are able to bring on board the less likely they are to address the issues that are most important to me.

I want the game to mirror real life as much as it can, I want it to be difficult because to me that's more rewarding. Smart AI and logical game mechanics seem difficult for SI. Also, I suspect they have little interest in making the game harder, why would they, it will put more people off than it pleases.

The majority of people who play this game IMO just want to "win" they don't look below the surface, they don't see poor AI throughout the game or stats that make no sense IRL. All I see is a game where the opposition I'm up against is literally regressing from the moment I start a game. It's a shame.

Agreed. The sense of achievement you once got from grafting together a promotion winning side over a few seasons, then restarting again next season in the higher tier, is long gone- unless you want to go down the “impose your own rules” path, which isn’t for me.

Edited November 7, 2023 by sthptngomad76

[ceefax the cat]

2 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

Thats just peachy...I have to spend extra money to cheat because certain aspect of the game is so broken it makes it unusable.

Again, I wouldn't describe correcting the game's many bugs and gremlins as 'cheating' but: yes. Well worth it. My favourite is correcting bizarre, illogical player positions, eg: a newgen who's an expert at playing right back and AMR but has absolutely zero clue how to operate at wingback, even though he absolutely is one, or MR. Sod being restricted in my tactics and waiting months to train him in a role he's already great at - whip the editor out.

[Grez]

I suspect there's little desire from SI to increase difficulty.

The game is almost certainly balanced around new players who don't know how to play yet, and I really don't blame SI for that. The worst possible outcome for SI is a new player picking up the game for free during their end of year promotion, losing every game, getting fired, and then never coming back - so these players need to be protected and made to feel like they're doing well so that they keep coming back.

I think the issue is not that the game is too easy, it's that there's only one difficulty level. The current difficulty is absolutely fine for new players, or for players who just want to play out a fantasy, but it's not fine for experienced players who want a challenge. I don't think you can ever cater to everybody with only one difficulty level.

One thing I disagree with is that AI is the problem. The AI has flaws, but that's not what sets the difficulty. In reality this is a numbers game - It's wages, transfer fees and budgets. It's club reputations, team cohesion and tactical familiarity. It's player attributes, morale and condition - it's all numbers - so as such the difficulty can be changed by adjusting the numbers. Want a slightly harder game? Make player-managed clubs slightly worse at all of these aspects - Imagine if your player interactions resulted in slightly worse morale, your training was slightly less effective, your team cohesion dropped more from new signings, your players demand more wages, your players play as if they have lower attributes, your fatigue rises faster and condition drops quicker etc - There's dozens of scenarios that are decided by comparing and incrementing numbers, so if you apply a difficulty modifier to these calculations you modify the difficulty. No complicated AI changes, no changes to the way the game flows, no need to alienate new players - just an optional modifier on a few numbers that would allow infinite difficulty levels to keep everybody entertained.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Grez

[sthptngomad76]

15 minutes ago, Grez said:

I suspect there's little desire from SI to increase difficulty.

The game is almost certainly balanced around new players who don't know how to play yet, and I really don't blame SI for that. The worst possible outcome for SI is a new player picking up the game for free during their end of year promotion, losing every game, getting fired, and then never coming back - so these players need to be protected and made to feel like they're doing well so that they keep coming back.

I think the issue is not that the game is too easy, it's that there's only one difficulty level. The current difficulty is absolutely fine for new players, or for players who just want to play out a fantasy, but it's not fine for experienced players who want a challenge. I don't think you can ever cater to everybody with only one difficulty level.

One thing I disagree with is that AI is the problem. The AI has flaws, but that's not what sets the difficulty. In reality this is a numbers game - It's wages, transfer fees and budgets. It's club reputations, team cohesion and tactical familiarity. It's player attributes, morale and condition - it's all numbers - so as such the difficulty can be changed by adjusting the numbers. Want a slightly harder game? Make player-managed clubs slightly worse at all of these aspects - Imagine if your player interactions resulted in slightly worse morale, your training was slightly less effective, your team cohesion dropped more from new signings, your players demand more wages, your players play as if they have lower attributes, your fatigue rises faster and condition drops quicker etc - There's dozens of scenarios that are decided by comparing and incrementing numbers, so if you apply a difficulty modifier to these calculations you modify the difficulty. No complicated AI changes, no changes to the way the game flows, no need to alienate new players - just an optional modifier on a few numbers that would allow infinite difficulty levels to keep everybody entertained.

I’m 100% with you on any efforts of a custom difficulty, but there seems to be a bit of resistance on these forums to that. I’m no programmer, I don’t know it’s technically possible in terms that game balance, but for me at least, I’m all for it.

Edited November 7, 2023 by sthptngomad76

[fc.cadoni]

The AI thing is like a weird thing, I would say. From one hand it can improvement; but how far? It's not a past of the thing that AI won the humanity in chess and such a complex games. Pretty sure, SI can build an AI (with all data which have) which will make you to not see the light of the day, but does it really necessary? Balance is a trick one with AI. Beware what you wish for 

[Mars_Blackmon]

They can start by improving the defensive play. One of the main reasons that we have more success is that 99% of us use attacking tactics. The AI? not so much. Also. They aren't exposing our attacking style that much.

The risk/reward factor is too heavily favored to the reward side.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[TheAwesomeGem]

Tried the game and immediately refunded it. Won the league with Luton Town with 95 points in the second season in Premier League. AI have 0 squad management skills(doesn't maintain sharpness or condition or substitutions), very bad transfers and gets much more worse over time because they don't develop their young players(doesn't play them, doesn't loan them). Easily the easiest FM ever. Too bad it has the best match engine though. Refund the game before the refund period especially when there is misleading headline features. That's what the refund process is for.

Edited November 8, 2023 by TheAwesomeGem

[jsx7ste]

I have limited play time so far but some of these comments seem really trolling. Also I'd love to see the save of the MK Dons player winning 3 leagues back to back. That seems really fishy. Also highly unlikely that you can win the Premier league with Luton in the 2nd Season without cheating or save scumming. 

 

Personally, I don't play plug and play tactics. I've tried to emulate Angeball with Spurs. My results are as follows:

 

West Ham 2 -3 Spurs

Spurs 4 - 1 Everton

Spurs 2 - 0 Wolves

Spurs 4 - 1 Burton (cup)

Man City 2 - 0 Spurs

Fulham 1 - 1 Spurs

Spurs 2 - 0 Sheffield United 

Spurs 3 - 0 Nottingham Forest (cup)

Burnley 1 - 1 Spurs

 

AI have signed some good players and all their players who play in games have  high match sharpness. I've noticed two things that I'd consider strange. The number of injuries is really high for me but looking at other teams they only have 1 or 2. I have about 7. My cup home games had attendance of 25k for Burton. Would never happen. The stadium would be a near sell out no matter what.  

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by jsx7ste

[metalhead765]

I Agree too easy won the league in second season  in Greece 

with a team far worse than the big traditional 4 teams

and not really great players  just some 18 year old talents and decent players

[GreenTriangle]

I hope you understand that an high increase in difficulty would practically destroy "youth only" careers. And there are many who appreciate these careers. Sure, there is the theory of introducing "difficulty levels", but who would play "youth only" if they were told that a real progress is only possible by playing in "easy" level ?

[Mcfc1894]

20 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

I hope you understand that an high increase in difficulty would practically destroy "youth only" careers. And there are many who appreciate these careers. Sure, there is the theory of introducing "difficulty levels", but who would play "youth only" if they were told that a real progress is only possible by playing in "easy" level ?

For me Increasing the difficulty would make a youth only save more interesting you would need to spend years developing to compete and for players to get high enough PA that much more rewarding than doing it in a game which is maybe too easy 

[paracoolo]

It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners  all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City      2021/22: Madrid       2020/21: Chelsea      2019-2020: Bayern       2018-19:Liverpool.                                                                                     

The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.

Edited November 8, 2023 by paracoolo

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 minutes ago, paracoolo said:

It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners  all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City      2021/22: Madrid       2020/21: Chelsea      2019-2020: Bayern       2018-19:Liverpool.                                                                                     

The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.

Football is more than just the Champions league and the top 5 leagues...

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[SergeiG]

6 minutes ago, paracoolo said:

It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners  all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City      2021/22: Madrid       2020/21: Chelsea      2019-2020: Bayern       2018-19:Liverpool.                                                                                     

The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.

High pressing is not an automatic win card, look at Manchester United.

[paracoolo]

9 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

High pressing is not an automatic win card, look at Manchester United.

they win 1-0 , 1-0 games and its not like they dominate. Winning teams in the top 5 leagues mostly play high pressing idk how it's not a fact.

[paracoolo]

then why do you think the winning( by winning i mean more wins than draws/lose combined) teams of the top 5 leagues play high pressing?

[GreenTriangle]

21 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

you would need to spend years developing

That's the point. Many years. It would be more fun for you but less fun for others.

[paracoolo]

Every year , there's always a bunch of players who are unhappy. The game is still the best manager game EVER and no other game can come closer. FM24 is the best FM i've played ngl. Huge improvement compared to FM23 especially the Match Engine, tactics, stats.

[Mars_Blackmon]

17 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

That's the point. Many years. It would be more fun for you but less fun for others.

Then what is the point of a youth challenge if you don't want to spend years developing "youth"?

[SPE3D]

3 hours ago, paracoolo said:

Every year , there's always a bunch of players who are unhappy. The game is still the best manager game EVER and no other game can come closer. FM24 is the best FM i've played ngl. Huge improvement compared to FM23 especially the Match Engine, tactics, stats.

Out of interest can you upload your game save so we can see why your game is working?

[SPE3D]

3 hours ago, paracoolo said:

It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners  all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City      2021/22: Madrid       2020/21: Chelsea      2019-2020: Bayern       2018-19:Liverpool.                                                                                     

The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.

You are correct in what you are saying but you are missing the point. Most teams in this game are Incapable of making gegenpress work because they are not equipped to yet any team in this game can. 

[Ngoc]

blaming/complaining about AI is funny. This is practically a math game they can EASILY make an AI that makes you eat dirt if they really want and program it to exactly do what is best in every single field every single time.

the challenge is to make the AI not be perfect at math! You need to program an AI as stupid as the post we read here and this is a seriously complex challenge because stupidity has many faces and many levels of gray so they can't make a stupid AI of infinite shades of grey.

And what is even more difficult is to make the AI act like humans: making mistakes! How many times your player is too tired with a high probability of injury and so so morale and there is another one that is in perfect condition and happy and you play the tired one because is ur favorite try to code something like that into AI and if you don't AI will always win.

Yes this game is easy because making an accessibly stupid AI is hard and they tend to overdo to cater to the "medium" human being (and believe me the "medium" human being is very very low in the food chain of intelligence)

Read the number of posts in which people complain that AI is cheating.... and they lose too much or too often with a better team!

Can't blame the game for being easy blame the people for being too stupid and forcing AI to be lowered so much! it's true a different level would be nice but I fear coding AI for a different level is hard time/resource-wise the easiest way would be to debug (giving malus) to the human player but AI would be the same.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Ngoc

[enigmatic]

18 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

They can start by improving the defensive play. One of the main reasons that we have more success is that 99% of us use attacking tactics. The AI? not so much. Also. They aren't exposing our attacking style that much.

The risk/reward factor is too heavily favored to the reward side.

Easier said than done. Hard enough to create something that takes hundreds of different variables and turns them into something that vaguely approximates a football match with generally plausible scorelines, without also having to create ingenious counter-attacking strategies to destroy sides that are really going for it (which the vast majority of matches the ME simulates is a side that is expected to equalise versus a side that would shut up shop rather than trying to score a second goal by exploiting spaces in behind fullbacks IRL). Probably the only way to do it would be to actually distinguish between human and AI opponents, which ironically, is the thing SI gets accused of doing by most of the complaints on here!

FM totally relies on stronger sides being more attacking to actually get believable results from the AI in the first place, because there isn't much difference in attributes (even less in meaningful attributes) between a title challenger and a mid-table side in most leagues...

[Brad0026]

5 hours ago, paracoolo said:

Every year , there's always a bunch of players who are unhappy. The game is still the best manager game EVER and no other game can come closer. FM24 is the best FM i've played ngl. Huge improvement compared to FM23 especially the Match Engine, tactics, stats.

Think a lot of people are wound up as in people’s saves the opposing team aren’t making subs or rotating so makes it too easy when the other team are tired

[ceefax the cat]

5 hours ago, paracoolo said:

It's kinda funny that everyone here complains that high pressing is easier to win but it's the same irl.. So what do y'all want, a more tactially-fair game or a realistic game? Because realistically, the last 5 CLs winners  all play some sort of high pressing tactic. 2022/23: City      2021/22: Madrid       2020/21: Chelsea      2019-2020: Bayern       2018-19:Liverpool.                                                                                     

The only team that didnt really play A high intensive pressing was Madrid but if u watched the game, Liverpool dominated the game with their high pressing. So it kinda makes sense that high pressing works better than the others.

At the absolute highest level, yes, increasingly you have to press and you have to try to dominate territory and possession - although Conte and Mourinho say hi. Part of the problem here, though, is that, at any level, you can just casually ask your players to play a possession-hogging, gegenpressing system with a rotating back 4 and they'll boss the league. Even in the lower reaches of the Premier League there are teams who can't afford to play that way because they just don't have the players who can play well enough under pressure. And all around the world there are teams overachieving or pulling off giant killings by going long, playing in low blocks etc etc.

I agree it would be unrealistic if playing on the front foot wasn't the obvious thing to do when challenging for the Champions League, but there's a lot more to it than that. The game would be much, much richer if you genuinely had to adapt your style to the level you're at and the players you have. It's arguably not much of a management sim otherwise!
 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by ceefax the cat

[Domoboy23]

50 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

At the absolute highest level, yes, increasingly you have to press and you have to try to dominate territory and possession - although Conte and Mourinho say hi. Part of the problem here, though, is that, at any level, you can just casually ask your players to play a possession-hogging, gegenpressing system with a rotating back 4 and they'll boss the league. Even in the lower reaches of the Premier League there are teams who can't afford to play that way because they just don't have the players who can play well enough under pressure. And all around the world there are teams overachieving or pulling off giant killings by going long, playing in low blocks etc etc.

I agree it would be unrealistic if playing on the front foot wasn't the obvious thing to do when challenging for the Champions League, but there's a lot more to it than that. The game would be much, much richer if you genuinely had to adapt your style to the level you're at and the players you have. It's arguably not much of a management sim otherwise!
 

 

I got defensive, low deep blocks with a hoofball/ target forward working really well on FM23

[zyfon5]

22 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

At the absolute highest level, yes, increasingly you have to press and you have to try to dominate territory and possession - although Conte and Mourinho say hi. Part of the problem here, though, is that, at any level, you can just casually ask your players to play a possession-hogging, gegenpressing system with a rotating back 4 and they'll boss the league. Even in the lower reaches of the Premier League there are teams who can't afford to play that way because they just don't have the players who can play well enough under pressure. And all around the world there are teams overachieving or pulling off giant killings by going long, playing in low blocks etc etc.

I agree it would be unrealistic if playing on the front foot wasn't the obvious thing to do when challenging for the Champions League, but there's a lot more to it than that. The game would be much, much richer if you genuinely had to adapt your style to the level you're at and the players you have. It's arguably not much of a management sim otherwise!
 

 

Hoof ball is definitely viable in FM. The problem is most FM players are not well equipped tactically to set up a reactive or defensive tactic. In one of my previous saves i have gotten 2 draws against full strength chelsea and Liverpool in club world cup as a j league side with league 1 level players playing a low block.

[Kickballz]

On 07/11/2023 at 22:06, Grez said:

I suspect there's little desire from SI to increase difficulty.

The game is almost certainly balanced around new players who don't know how to play yet, and I really don't blame SI for that. The worst possible outcome for SI is a new player picking up the game for free during their end of year promotion, losing every game, getting fired, and then never coming back - so these players need to be protected and made to feel like they're doing well so that they keep coming back.

I think the issue is not that the game is too easy, it's that there's only one difficulty level. The current difficulty is absolutely fine for new players, or for players who just want to play out a fantasy, but it's not fine for experienced players who want a challenge. I don't think you can ever cater to everybody with only one difficulty level.

One thing I disagree with is that AI is the problem. The AI has flaws, but that's not what sets the difficulty. In reality this is a numbers game - It's wages, transfer fees and budgets. It's club reputations, team cohesion and tactical familiarity. It's player attributes, morale and condition - it's all numbers - so as such the difficulty can be changed by adjusting the numbers. Want a slightly harder game? Make player-managed clubs slightly worse at all of these aspects - Imagine if your player interactions resulted in slightly worse morale, your training was slightly less effective, your team cohesion dropped more from new signings, your players demand more wages, your players play as if they have lower attributes, your fatigue rises faster and condition drops quicker etc - There's dozens of scenarios that are decided by comparing and incrementing numbers, so if you apply a difficulty modifier to these calculations you modify the difficulty. No complicated AI changes, no changes to the way the game flows, no need to alienate new players - just an optional modifier on a few numbers that would allow infinite difficulty levels to keep everybody entertained.

I'm starting to think this might be a decent option, if only to stop this debate coming up again and again.

Why not allow players to nerf themselves if that is what they want? It is exactly what most other strategy games do.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Kickballz said:

I'm starting to think this might be a decent option, if only to stop this debate coming up again and again.

Why not allow players to nerf themselves if that is what they want? It is exactly what most other strategy games do.

Yeah, and most good strategy games implement buffs for the AI. I wouldn't say I like that route, but SI contradicts itself by saying that it wants an equal playing field when they continuously allows loopholes for the user in the game, whether manipulating the transfer market or implementing tactics that the AI never uses. And why are there only about 11 formations available to the AI?

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[sthptngomad76]

13 hours ago, Kickballz said:

I'm starting to think this might be a decent option, if only to stop this debate coming up again and again.

Why not allow players to nerf themselves if that is what they want? It is exactly what most other strategy games do.

It’s definitely not the most elegant option- but I’d rather the option to have a (user selected) “hard mode” AI that cheats, but creates an engaging challenging game that keeps me coming back, rather than the current situation where play for a half season and get bored, or have to artificially self-impose tactic selection/transfers, as is often suggested when this gets brought up.
 

The ideal of course for me is an AI that is clever enough without this (which I hoped would be this version), but based on SI’s current efforts this isn’t likely in the foreseeable future, unless FM25 finally does it. I’m not holding my breath though.

Edited November 10, 2023 by sthptngomad76

[enigmatic]

There are numerous ways of making the game harder for yourself already. Play a tactic appropriate to the team rather than an overpowered gegenpress, let the DoF handle transfers or just don't do any, don't sign high pace players etc.

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves would already be doing this rather than humblebragging about how how SI needed to take action to stop their collection of gegenpressing wonderkids winning everything...

Ultimately if you can gegenpress your way to the Premier League with a bunch of 120ca pace merchants on standard mode, you're going to be able to do the same thing with a bunch of 135ca wonderkids with a 2 point attribute penalty in the match engine.

[Ngoc]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

There are numerous ways of making the game harder for yourself already. Play a tactic appropriate to the team rather than an overpowered gegenpress, let the DoF handle transfers or just don't do any, don't sign high pace players etc.

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves would already be doing this rather than humblebragging about how how SI needed to take action to stop their collection of gegenpressing wonderkids winning everything...

Ultimately if you can gegenpress your way to the Premier League with a bunch of 120ca pace merchants on standard mode, you're going to be able to do the same thing with a bunch of 135ca wonderkids with a 2 point attribute penalty in the match engine.

Exactly is funny how they all use the east mode tactic with easy mode engine cheat (pace and acceleration) and than complain game is too easy 

if they had an hard mode they would use the same exact tactic with the same exact cheat only push it even to more extreme and find even more cheat

why don’t they just try to use other tactics but player that are not always the best but maybe because they are good at that specific tactic that is not gegenpress and ultimately use a mod to hide all stats number and only trust assisted judgment or their feeling without the hard core number written down

i bet the one that complain about how easy it is use the unmasked number as well Ehehe 

[Kickballz]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

There are numerous ways of making the game harder for yourself already. Play a tactic appropriate to the team rather than an overpowered gegenpress, let the DoF handle transfers or just don't do any, don't sign high pace players etc.

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves would already be doing this rather than humblebragging about how how SI needed to take action to stop their collection of gegenpressing wonderkids winning everything...

Ultimately if you can gegenpress your way to the Premier League with a bunch of 120ca pace merchants on standard mode, you're going to be able to do the same thing with a bunch of 135ca wonderkids with a 2 point attribute penalty in the match engine.

I know this and you know this, but is seems players will keep making threads like this, until they have can have a box to tick. I say, give them their hardcore mode and we can all move on.

[greenz81]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

There are numerous ways of making the game harder for yourself already. Play a tactic appropriate to the team rather than an overpowered gegenpress, let the DoF handle transfers or just don't do any, don't sign high pace players etc.

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves would already be doing this rather than humblebragging about how how SI needed to take action to stop their collection of gegenpressing wonderkids winning everything...

Ultimately if you can gegenpress your way to the Premier League with a bunch of 120ca pace merchants on standard mode, you're going to be able to do the same thing with a bunch of 135ca wonderkids with a 2 point attribute penalty in the match engine.

I wouldnt blame the end-user for not being challenged. But you are pointing out the faults with the game which are not the end-users fault. They want the game to challenge them. A few points you made

Overpowered gegenpress - you should need the right players to play the system in the first place, which we don´t have to at present

DoF handle transfers - because we all know the DOF is dumb in-game and sign you random players that dont fit your system or personality, so lack of AI intelligence punishes you

Don't sign high pace players - Why would anyone want slow players on their team unless they had amazing stats in other areas? Pace is always an advantage anyway, but against a low block or double marking a player in real life helps remove that advantage

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves - had bought football manager because in previous editions without all the flashing lights and stuff, it was a challenge. But also because we were not given the right tools to deal with situations. Now we have the tools to help us, they dont quite work right.

 

If i was the fastest sprinter in my school and won every year, do you think i should slow down so its a challenge or go to a place where i could be challenged better? Thats the point of a new version of a game coming out every year, should be more challenging than the last.

[Kickballz]

So... were you the fastest sprinter? we need an answer.

[greenz81]

1 minute ago, Kickballz said:

So... were you the fastest sprinter? we need an answer.

Was in the top 3. Wouldve been no.1 but i wanted a challenge!

[Ngoc]

29 minutes ago, greenz81 said:

I wouldnt blame the end-user for not being challenged. But you are pointing out the faults with the game which are not the end-users fault. They want the game to challenge them. A few points you made

Overpowered gegenpress - you should need the right players to play the system in the first place, which we don´t have to at present

DoF handle transfers - because we all know the DOF is dumb in-game and sign you random players that dont fit your system or personality, so lack of AI intelligence punishes you

Don't sign high pace players - Why would anyone want slow players on their team unless they had amazing stats in other areas? Pace is always an advantage anyway, but against a low block or double marking a player in real life helps remove that advantage

Anyone that actually wanted to challenge themselves - had bought football manager because in previous editions without all the flashing lights and stuff, it was a challenge. But also because we were not given the right tools to deal with situations. Now we have the tools to help us, they dont quite work right.

 

If i was the fastest sprinter in my school and won every year, do you think i should slow down so its a challenge or go to a place where i could be challenged better? Thats the point of a new version of a game coming out every year, should be more challenging than the last.

This is exactly why player sux they can’t think out of the box min max and than whine that is easier

news flash lot of people are not that lame and since there is no different level they obviously cater to player that enjoy the game not min max sore loosers

if you were the faster sprinter and actually don’t plan to make the Olympics or make it your job I would tell you to relax and find a new hobby as life is full of other cool stuff and only focus on one because you are slightly decent is very limiting 

I would ask you what you are worst at swimming? Soccer? Jumping? And I would tell since you are good at running try something else you may find new pleasure in life or drop sport and focus on math literature or philosophy life is so full of cool stuff and you locking yourself in just one like a horse with the vision limited is very silly.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Ngoc