FM 2009 - Please Make the Game Fun Again!!!

[Arnoldzhu]

Finally, the match ended up with Trabzonspor got sent off of one of its midfielder because previously I thought wingers have low marking and aggression are shy to hard tackling so I tried my best to conquer that. So this red is caused by Bentley trying to get the ball from behind and this must annoys the opponent midfielder and he got angry and did something voilent and got sent off. The commentary said his teammates have to drag him away. Looks like he really got p*ssed off by my violent ugly tactics. Hehe! So apart from slight problems with closing down the match engine in 8.0 is billiant as I can see.

[Arnoldzhu]

Oh I forgot the game finally end up with Blackburn lost 0-1 to Trabzonspor. Because Savage got sent off and Trabz take the advantage to score. But then I order to fully attacking and competing for the ball so one of theirs got angry and also sent off. Interesting match and testing.

So that leads me to thinking that, irl managers has his styles but that's general. Good managers are good at making decisions to change, according to what kind of players he has and what kind of opponent he is facing. So in this game, imo the best way to play this game and setting the tactics is to watch the 2d screen and anyalize what is happening on the pitch and make decisions based on what you see and be like a real life manager leading your team.

I think the problem now and all the debate here now is because we put to much expectations on one tactics or one change to the tactics other than why we should make that change. IMHO in the game, we can set a general tactics according to what kind of style of football you want to play. But before each match after you select your squad, you should make changes and tweaks to the tactics. IRL managers don't save the temperary tweaked tactics as a better one to use for all later matches. In real life there's no one winning tactics, there's only managers who's good at tweaking tactics every match or even every minute on the pitch and mangers who's good at interpersonal communications. And that is what is reflected in the game by the attribute of managers with "mangement" & "tactical knowledge".

[Mike7077]

For what it's worth, I'll throw my weight behind those that think the game is still fun. When all's said and done, I while away so many hours on it for one reason, and one reason alone. It's a hell of a lot of fun, to me anyway.

[AMcGovern10]

The game being hard is good but it has to be for the right reasons.

This is a great point and I am glad that people are on the same page as me.

I like the talk about the match engine and a major point of the last 4 versions of Football Manager has been about tactics and how it is very hard to get them right.

There are a few ways to look at this though, both positive and negative.

As with any game you have to find a way to beat the game, at the end of the day it is all coded and so the tactics serve as a formula you must work out to win. The POSITIVE part of the new games is that there is no killer tactics and the AI can learn and crack your system. This is a plus to FM 2008. The negative part is that a lot of the tactics employed in FM 2008 to win do not reflect real life. This is where people get annoyed with things like tempo, closing down and corner bugs. Those people who know alot about the game almost have to throw their knowledge out the window in order to make the tactics work!

Its all about balance. 99% of the people who play FM 2008 do not sit through 90 mins match engine each game I bet. So then when they are watching 2d match engine in highlights they do not get an overall reflection of the game. It would be like a manager watching his team play with the highlights of match of the day and then trying to pick out things to work on. A player might have been crap for 90% of the game but the 5 minutes of highlights showed him do ok and all of a sudden he's a good player. Truth is that there is a limit to how realistic the game can be. You never physically interact with anyone during the game, unlike real life, you don't watch highlights in pro-zone format and skysports news would not keep asking you about a player returning to the club after 5 years and 5 previous returns to the club. If Football manager is about creating the illusion that you are simulating real life management, then quite simply there are many areas which need to be worked upon. I'm glad they have sought the advice of Ray Houghton, this is the idea, but I am sure he didn't tell the programmers that most clubs score 40 goals a year when they challenge the goalkeeper at corners. I remember playing the original championship manager, and yet all these years later, corner bugs, media bugs, version 8.01, 8.02 and the game is still not reaching its potential.

The problem is that right now, people will lose patience with the game and whilst many of the new features each year make the game better, the way they are implemented are killing the game.

It is a shame that none of the moderators, testers or develepors have commented yet.......

[Serpico]

Originally posted by Mike7077:

For what it's worth, I'll throw my weight behind those that think the game is still fun. When all's said and done, I while away so many hours on it for one reason, and one reason alone. It's a hell of a lot of fun, to me anyway.

FM08 seems to have really polorised fans of the series. Some people still love it, others, long term fans as well, hate it. Me, well I'm afraid I'm getting just about no enjoyment out of the game at all. The media and team talks (partic the latter) annoy the hell out of me. They don't add anything to the game. They don't draw me in, and help suspend disbelief. They just make things feel random and unrealistic. 3-0 down away from home and getting thoroughly outplayed so I demand a result in my half time talk, and amazingly my side go out and get a 3-3 draw. Then when I'm 3-0 up I pick the wrong option and lose 5-3. It just doesn't feel believable.

And I want to play 4-4-2. I don't want to play 5 in midfield. But I can't and get anywhere.

And how come when I copy and paste the AI tactics into my own tactics folder they are completely useless when the computer anihilates me when they use em?

[Ackter]

Cause the computer doesn't use your crappy tactics in turn

[AMcGovern10]

What seems to get to me is that the game has so much more potential than it is showing, whereas games like Fifa Manager has all the glitz and glamour of graphics and 3d match engines, those of us who know the game realize that it is not realistic and no where near close to football. Thats why we play football manager cos we know it is about as close as you can get and that is why we get dissapointed when 2 or 3 silly bugs and annoyances hold the game back.

For us Football manager grandads who have played the game for years and are now on burn out cos the game 'just ain't the way it used to be' we can appreciate how far the game has come in terms of realism and it is a good thing. But when the games main demographic is 16-24 year olds just imagine the frustration of a 16 year old spending 8 hours searching through players and tactics to win a game. Not happening. The average yobbo buying the game isn't gonna sit down with a pen and paper watching the 2d match engine!!!

You have to give new players and casual players a chance or the game will continue to go downhill.

For me the Assistant manager role has to be improved to bring the playability back. The answer is staring SI in the face. Just options to allow our Asst manager who we have hired cos of his great stats to talk to media for us and give our team good team talks (which do not affect the game overatedly e.g 3-0 down .... where's the passion? 4-3 win) just to see what our asst manager with 20 for motivating would do in a situation and then for us to say 'ok, i see how he handled that, now i can do the same' and hey presto and in built learning system suited to everyone with turning on/off option and no need for hourless nights searching on forums on how to win the game, rather than playing it.

Its just like giving out golden information for nothing.

[Arnoldzhu]

Originally posted by Ackter:

Cause the computer doesn't use your crappy tactics in turn

Well, the game is programmed so it has flaws naturally. And taking advandvage of these flaws or so-called bugs is cheating and many find it's frustrating and some others are happy to cheat for win. In many other online games, using game flaws or bugs to get benifits will be punished, like forbid your account immediately forever. So that's to keep the game fair and enjoyable for every player. So the same to football manager game, why after every version of this series comes out, many are trying and finally successfully find out the flaws in tactics and match engine to create winning tactics? Why can't you just play the role as a football club manager and do what you think is right and logical?

What do you think? On one hand it's good for making the game more close to perfect. On the other hand it's like suicide to try to find flaws and make winning tactics cos' you will lose interest soon cos' your always winning is not so enjoyable playing this game IMO. I enjoy playing and feel successful by using my own knowledge and ability of football management to control the club win matches and get beaten some times. My job is not to exploit the flaw in the game, otherwise, SI just don't need to put so much effort in the series they could just make an entertaining easy winning or imaginary/exaggarative game to enable gamers to abuse the AI in every weird freaking ways.

p.s. I think there's no crappy tactics, only wrong decisions wrong timing or wrong place. Some other time or place this decision may prove to be correct and make effects to the result. Just play the game in the view of a manager not a flaw-exploiter and you will have fun. Of course the match engine alwasy needs further improvement. I personally think based on 8.0.0 match engine (not 0.1 not 0.2) we can get a very enjoyable game. The feeling is totally different watching your team scoring goals in 8.0 compared to 8.0.1 or 8.0.2. Why not many have noticed that?

[sirdez24]

Just on Arsenal, the reason they can walk through teams is because it's at a quick tempo. Short passing sure, but at the sort of pace that makes it very difficult to defend against effectively. Do you defend the player or the space?

[smithers08]

although fm08 does have a ew bugs etc i still find the game enjoyable , and the best management game ever . i am sure that if si fix a few of bugs in fm09 e.g confidence section , then i think everyone will be more than happy with the finished item .

keep up the good work si

[Gecko]

i love fm and have been playing since cm01/02. But i think si should only bring something new into the game if its complete otherwise just hold it off for the next version... i really dont like how its been bugged. Other then that i love it and always will

[wwfan]

As with any game you have to find a way to beat the game, at the end of the day it is all coded and so the tactics serve as a formula you must work out to win. The POSITIVE part of the new games is that there is no killer tactics and the AI can learn and crack your system. This is a plus to FM 2008. The negative part is that a lot of the tactics employed in FM 2008 to win do not reflect real life. This is where people get annoyed with things like tempo, closing down and corner bugs. Those people who know alot about the game almost have to throw their knowledge out the window in order to make the tactics work!

Its all about balance. 99% of the people who play FM 2008 do not sit through 90 mins match engine each game I bet. So then when they are watching 2d match engine in highlights they do not get an overall reflection of the game. It would be like a manager watching his team play with the highlights of match of the day and then trying to pick out things to work on. A player might have been crap for 90% of the game but the 5 minutes of highlights showed him do ok and all of a sudden he's a good player. Truth is that there is a limit to how realistic the game can be. You never physically interact with anyone during the game, unlike real life, you don't watch highlights in pro-zone format and skysports news would not keep asking you about a player returning to the club after 5 years and 5 previous returns to the club. If Football manager is about creating the illusion that you are simulating real life management, then quite simply there are many areas which need to be worked upon. I'm glad they have sought the advice of Ray Houghton, this is the idea, but I am sure he didn't tell the programmers that most clubs score 40 goals a year when they challenge the goalkeeper at corners. I remember playing the original championship manager, and yet all these years later, corner bugs, media bugs, version 8.01, 8.02 and the game is still not reaching its potential.

It seems you are making two points in one. The first is that real life knowledge is of no help when playing FM. The second that there should be no bugs. The former statement I fundamentally disagree with. The second is, unfortunately a fact of software programming life, but I think is closer to being solved for FM09 than any incarnation thus far. I'll explain.

1: FM tactics are not like real life tactics. There is a constant misperception in the forums that world class teams outperform other sides through high tempo attacks alone. Nothing is further from the truth. High tempo matches for top sides tend to happen only when big guns, and at that big English/Scottish guns, meet each other. For most other matches, the better side will play possession, lower tempo football with occasional rapier thrusts, a slow-slow-fast approach. The simplest way to achieve that in FM is via creative freedom and free roles within a slow tempo system. Most players focus on keeping the ball with a few flair players suddenly speeding things up at opportune moments. At lower levels fast tempo is more effective because it can force the opposition into mistakes. However, it is much less effective in the top flight against teams that sit back and 'park the bus'. I would argue that is the same as real life.

A lot of tactics that don't work, or stop working, are simply unrealisitic in design. Crazy arrows, massive gaps between defence and midfield, too much tempo/FWRs so the team gets worn out etc. They are easier to build than solid systems because adding an arrow to (seemingly) fix something is much easier than balancing mentality, d-line, FWRs in a holistic manner. However, the arrows cause as many problems as they solve. In the very simplest terms, a team will play wide and loose at home, narrow and tight away. Using those two assumptions it is reasonably easy to design decent base tactics. NB narrow tactics with no wingers overachieve horrendously in FM08. I won't go into the details as to why but a quick flick through the forums will indicate just how many people win by overloading the centre of the park. Not realistic. Although I would argue the central midfield is key to winning/losing matches they need FBs and wingers to create space. In FM08 you can create space in unrealisitic ways in the centre of the park. Any AI or user formation that has a lot of central players is going to be difficult to beat.

The physical interaction with players issue is an interesting one. It is true that you can't chat to him during a match, but you can change his tactical instructions at any time to 'help' him do the right things. If your FB is dawdling on the ball, is it because he is rubbish or that he has no passing options? If he has short passing set and all the midfielders rush forwards at tempo when he gets the ball, you have a problem if the DC is being marked as he has no outlet pass. Little things like this are vital in terms of managing the match and a large number of people fail to notice them, or if they do blame the engine rather than their tactical instructions. Any manager who isn't trying to change things not working in a match in real life is not a good manager. I would argue the sema for the virtual manager.

It's not that real life tactics don't work in FM. They do, very well. I have only played variations of a 4-4-2 in FM08 and FML and punch well above my weight. I know I could do better with a different shape as a 4-4-2 is tough to build, but in my Beta testing role I wanted to use the 4-4-2 as a focus. However, I proved to myself that wide, loose possession based tactics work at home and narrower, tighter, quicker, counter-atatcking ones work away. I think that is in line with realistic tactical approaches. What is difficult is the translation of real world instructions to the sliders. Get that right and everything else falls into place.

2: Bugs. The only game breaking bug in the FM08 engine is the corner routine. As you know about it the option is to simply not use it. Outside of that, and the issue about the central midfield highlighted above, the engine is pretty good. I agree that the media can be annoying and repetitive, as can be the team talks, but doing both well does affect the quality of the performance. Firing up or taking the presure off your players prior to a match can make a world of difference. Many complain that random bad performances are bugs but I assure you that most (not all, sometimes a bad performance is just a bad performance) are related to media/player interaction. SI are in a bind. However many response options they write, they will still get repetitive season on season. However, they are a vital part of the virtual world. So they will stay and slowly improve.

As for engine development, the FML Beta testing has seen greater leaps and bounds from the engine that I have seen previously in my years of Beta testing. This is largely because players who designed/used exploit tactics (circa 70% of total?) came up against the purists for the first time ever. This led to consistent and excellent debate about how to close certain loopholes in the engine, such as the narrow formation advantage, the crazy arrows, the corner routine. Each engine build came close and closer towards solving these problems. Many of them hadn't even been discussed previously. This is because that up until this point, people largely Beta tested against the AI so weren't discovering the engine exploits that the large user base does. Equally, only a few purist tacticians were testing and many who had found exploits that beat the AI weren't reporting them because they didn't see them as an issue (for example, the corner routine). Because purists are now coming up against those who use exploit tactics, more and more bugs have been discovered and fixed and the engine for FM09 should be incredible. I am already hardly playing FM08 in preference to FML simply because the engine seems clunky in comparison. For me, FML has been the best Beta experience ever and I hope the results make FM09 revolutionary in terms of engine design. It will never be perfect, but the steps this time are larger than ever before.

I, like many, was exceedingly shocked by 8.0.0. I thought it nigh unplayable. 8.0.1 was an improvement except for the one-on-ones. 8.0.2 is very good in comparison and many things are working better than ever before. Yet it has enough issues for me not to be truly satisfied with it. I think that 8.0.2 is the first somewhat flawed step towards a great engine. The main issues with its flaws is that they are difficult to see without really getting down to the intracacies of the engine. Many went unnoticed for a long time. I think that FML testing has solved these issues. I also think that without FML many of these issues would never have been discovered. I, unlike many more vocal forum members, believe that FM09 will be a great game becasue at its core will be a great engine.

[Law_Man]

Sounds fantastic Rich!

Can't believe all those people saying that FM09 will be rubbish because SI are devoting all their time and effort into FM Live. If the FM Live engine is amazing, then de facto, the FM09 engine will be amazing!

Given that SI are marketing FM Live as more of a 'sit-and-go' flavour of FM, that should also cater for the people posting in this thread who would like a more 'playable' feel to FM, albeit at a price

[Serpico]

It's not that real life tactics don't work in FM. They do, very well. I have only played variations of a 4-4-2 in FM08 and FML and punch well above my weight. I know I could do better with a different shape as a 4-4-2 is tough to build, but in my Beta testing role I wanted to use the 4-4-2 as a focus. However, I proved to myself that wide, loose possession based tactics work at home and narrower, tighter, quicker, counter-atatcking ones work away. I think that is in line with realistic tactical approaches. What is difficult is the translation of real world instructions to the sliders. Get that right and everything else falls into place.

Well they don't work for me, and it's not for want of trying. I took your A-level course in tactics design and thought I'd got a handle on things, but then a few months down the line it all fell apart.

In real life when I watch my team win/lose or draw I know it's because of what the players did on the pitch. In FM08 it feels like the result is primarily about what button the manager pushed pre-match and at half-time. And that can't be right.

[Arnoldzhu]

No, I think in real life it is even much more complex and unpredictable. When a team like real madrid is not winning, the manager may not have to know clearly what is going wrong or what exactly has to be done. That's why irl managers got sacked and big clubs still hard to achieve good results in League or Champions leauge.That's why only few managers irl achieve high records of winning leagues and cups. If I can't afford to lose, I can cheat to win, but that also doesn't entertains me.

[Broskoslov]

I do agree with AMcGovern10. It would be great if the game could be faster again and my assistant help me out, at least as an option. In this case everybody will be happy.

If you are able to toggle on/off this will be even greater. This way I can play it the fast way during weekdays and play it normal during the weekends when i have time for it

[AMcGovern10]

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Sounds good!!!

I was also pleased to hear about FM Live and how this can affect FM 2009 for the better. But on experience I have heard the same thing year after year and I am running out of patience. Thats certainly not the right way to be going about getting money out of me to play FM Live is it?

[ViG1980]

Originally posted by Serpico:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's not that real life tactics don't work in FM. They do, very well. I have only played variations of a 4-4-2 in FM08 and FML and punch well above my weight. I know I could do better with a different shape as a 4-4-2 is tough to build, but in my Beta testing role I wanted to use the 4-4-2 as a focus. However, I proved to myself that wide, loose possession based tactics work at home and narrower, tighter, quicker, counter-atatcking ones work away. I think that is in line with realistic tactical approaches. What is difficult is the translation of real world instructions to the sliders. Get that right and everything else falls into place.

Well they don't work for me, and it's not for want of trying. I took your A-level course in tactics design and thought I'd got a handle on things, but then a few months down the line it all fell apart.

In real life when I watch my team win/lose or draw I know it's because of what the players did on the pitch. In FM08 it feels like the result is primarily about what button the manager pushed pre-match and at half-time. And that can't be right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly - Whether things are going right or wrong, especially when they are going wrong, I have no idea why that is.

I think it is down to the tactics engine - it's just far too important in the game - With the same team, you can find yourself top of the table or bottom of the table with the smallest changes in tactics.

[GoGa70]

No, I think in real life it is even much more complex and unpredictable. When a team like real madrid is not winning, the manager may not have to know clearly what is going wrong or what exactly has to be done.

I think IRL it's quite obvious where the tactics fail, to fix it is a different thing.

The problem in FM is that once you got the balance right for your team, you're hard to beat, but you step out of the balance - and nothing works anymore.

[Mister Z]

Originally posted by wwfan:

2: Bugs. The only game breaking bug in the FM08 engine is the corner routine. As you know about it the option is to simply not use it. Outside of that, and the issue about the central midfield highlighted above, the engine is pretty good. I agree that the media can be annoying and repetitive, as can be the team talks, but doing both well does affect the quality of the performance. Firing up or taking the presure off your players prior to a match can make a world of difference. Many complain that random bad performances are bugs but I assure you that most (not all, sometimes a bad performance is just a bad performance) are related to media/player interaction. SI are in a bind. However many response options they write, they will still get repetitive season on season. However, they are a vital part of the virtual world. So they will stay and slowly improve.

The biggest design flaw of the current engine is the influence of moral. Because a players moral is mandatory for his performance, we are at the moment stuck with the cumbersome pre and post media talks. The engine needs ´moral ´ input to function and sadly SI has not put in much effort in the variance for input is and to explain the effects of input. So at this stage the less bumpy ride is to decline any input and hope for the best.

[This field intentionally l]

There would be far fewer flaws in the ME if peoples complaints has been listened to rather than shot down by the "its your tactics" brigade.

[George Graham]

Originally posted by This field intentionally left blank:

There would be far fewer flaws in the ME if peoples complaints has been listened to rather than shot down by the "its your tactics" brigade.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by This field intentionally left blank:

There would be far fewer flaws in the ME if peoples complaints has been listened to rather than shot down by the "its your tactics" brigade.

I think you'll find a huge number of things do get listened to, just not discussed in open fora. However, and I have always been very clear and precise about this, there is a certain type of tactic that the engine fails to cope with in terms of statistical performance. This type of tactic produces the 25 shots to 1 games that end in tight scorelines. People who use this type of tactic analyse it purely using on-screen stats rather than subjectively looking at chance creation and the 2d. They then argue 'look at my shot count, my tactics are not wrong, so don't even dare say they are' to which the response is 'but it is your tactics' or at least something you are doing badly. There are so many players who never have that scenario that it can't be anything else.

I can accept it is frustrating but too many people experiencing it are unwilling to take into consideration that they are doing something wrong and wave the stats in your face as proof. The 'it's your tactics' brigade are not entirely to blame and perhaps should be less blamed than those waving statistical 'proof'.

Show me one team in real life that always outshoots its opposition by 20 shots to 1 and then we can have a meaningful conversation about the tactical prowess of somebody achieving it on FM. Until then, I will recognise the 20-1 shot tactic as evidence of a flawed ME but not excellence of tactical design, rather average design that happens to break the engine. Dealing with it is a priority, but the perspective taken might be slightly different than the one most people complaining would imagine.

[NepentheZ]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by This field intentionally left blank:

There would be far fewer flaws in the ME if peoples complaints has been listened to rather than shot down by the "its your tactics" brigade.

I think you'll find a huge number of things do get listened to, just not discussed in open fora. However, and I have always been very clear and precise about this, there is a certain type of tactic that the engine fails to cope with in terms of statistical performance. This type of tactic produces the 25 shots to 1 games that end in tight scorelines. People who use this type of tactic analyse it purely using on-screen stats rather than subjectively looking at chance creating and the 2d. They then argue 'look at my shot count, my tactics are not wrong, so don't even dare say they are' to which the response is 'but it is your tactics' or at least something you are doing badly. There are so many players who never have that scenario that it can't be anything else.

I can accept it is frustrating but too many people experiencing it are unwilling to take into consideration that they are doing something wrong and wave the stats in your face as proof. The 'it's your tactics' brigade are not entirely to blame and perhaps should be less blamed than those waving statistical 'proof'.

Show me one team in real life that always outshoots its opposition by 20 shots to 1 and then we can have a meaningful conversation about the tactical prowess of somebody achieving it on FM. Until then, I will recognise the 20-1 shot tactic as evidence of a flawed ME but not excellence of tactical design, rather average design that happens to break the engine. Dealing with it is a priority, but the perspective taken might be slightly different than the one most people complaining would imagine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an important post, wwfan. Although I've been on the receiving of the 20-1 shots, and indeed have complained about it, a few hours reading in the tactics forum quickly changed my mind on the who subject, and opened my eyes to new possibilities of new tactics, and ways of creating fewer, yet more potent opportunities at goal.

Its evident that not everyone ventures into the tactics forum, nor has the time or desire to read through the plethora of topics there that are able to help them, but those that have, have a far greater advantage of the game than those that haven't.

Great thread, by the way.

[The Chosen One]

Originally posted by Young Freddie:

Strangely enough, i came on the boards this morning to start a new thread on why i dont find the game fun anymore?

I do tend to agree with the OP on some points, but for me, there is just ONE major factor when it comes to the game having become completely devoid of fun, so here goes...

...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

On top of that, i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1, losing or dropping points to some bizarre goal or other, whilst the opposing GK of often questionable ability miraculously saves every point blank effort my star striker in dazzling form can muster, often giving said GK his first and only 9 rating of his season to date and maybe even his first clean sheet to go with it?

I'll come clean and say that i do still find the game particularly easy, probably too easy in fact? as i always tend to overperform over the course of each season, but this thread is about the lack of FUN and my point is, how can you grasp any measure of fun out of a game in which the only way you ever win games(as often as that might be) is under the exact same circumstances, game after game after.....YAWN

If you have watched Arsenal (IRL) last season then you would have understood why luck is important, specially Arsenal against West Ham United at the Emirates (EPL).

I had the same problem in one match where I had more than 20 shots and my opposition less than 4 shots the whole game but they still won it. But that was just one game. I can also say I had the same experience where my opponents outplayed me like EPL team vs. SundayLeague team but I still won thanks to a wondergoal at the very end. What comes around goes around. You just have to be patient.

But if it does happen often then you need to look at your strikers (finishing, composure, decision making) as well as your Attacking midfielders.

[The Chosen One]

Originally posted by The Chosen One:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Freddie:

Strangely enough, i came on the boards this morning to start a new thread on why i dont find the game fun anymore?

I do tend to agree with the OP on some points, but for me, there is just ONE major factor when it comes to the game having become completely devoid of fun, so here goes...

...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

On top of that, i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1, losing or dropping points to some bizarre goal or other, whilst the opposing GK of often questionable ability miraculously saves every point blank effort my star striker in dazzling form can muster, often giving said GK his first and only 9 rating of his season to date and maybe even his first clean sheet to go with it?

I'll come clean and say that i do still find the game particularly easy, probably too easy in fact? as i always tend to overperform over the course of each season, but this thread is about the lack of FUN and my point is, how can you grasp any measure of fun out of a game in which the only way you ever win games(as often as that might be) is under the exact same circumstances, game after game after.....YAWN

If you have watched Arsenal (IRL) last season ( Season 06-07 ) then you would have understood why luck is important, specially Arsenal against West Ham United at the Emirates (EPL).

I had the same problem in one match where I had more than 20 shots and my opposition less than 4 shots the whole game but they still won it. But that was just one game. I can also say I had the same experience where my opponents outplayed me like EPL team vs. SundayLeague team but I still won thanks to a wondergoal at the very end. What comes around goes around. You just have to be patient.

But if it does happen often then you need to look at your strikers (finishing, composure, decision making) as well as your Attacking midfielders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I have to agree Media is utter rubbish.. it is so predictable.

Player interaction also needs improvement. It should have random things... One I would highly recommend is the ability to tell the player beforehand that he won't be offered new contract.

[Alalzia]

I agree with the op that FM is a game and should be played as a game.

In all games (even sports ones) being better = win FM is the only game where being better means absolutely nothing , i know people will say "sure but this happens in real life" but FM is not real life , it is a game .

Too many modules made the game boring , i hate team talks, i hate the media and i hate several other parts of the game.

Also too many clicks and too many windows , minimize their number or give us options to exclude them .

Finally a rant on the engine , please for Zeus shake make it run faster , even with gigantic database the process should be bullet speed , i can run X3-the return on my PC in maximum settings ( moving 10.000 objects/sec adjusting prices , relationships, millions of guns and a hell of other things plus heavy graphics) and it plays like a movie , FM (even old ones) are just too slow.

[Doyle]

Another great thread, did not understand some of the technical jargon though.

[Pukey]

Originally posted by Alalzia:

I agree with the op that FM is a game and should be played as a game.

In all games (even sports ones) being better = win FM is the only game where being better means absolutely nothing , i know people will say "sure but this happens in real life" but FM is not real life , it is a game .

It does happen in real life, and that's why it happens in the game, if your team is good enough then you will win things, simple as that but teams very very very very rarely go unbeaten for very long periods of times. It just happens. However I do agree with your points about the team talks and media. Media is just so annoying (especially the old player one) and team talks have too much of an impact. They obviously have an impact in real life, but if you're 1-0 up and you say pleased instead of encourage it won't make you're side lose 6-2 as happened to me once.

[imperialfrost]

the game has become to predictable. if you play 5 seasons in the same league you see. and that is not football.

more randomness would be nice but on the other hand if you reload a game and the first game went like 2-0 for the opponent and the next game you win 5-0 it is not realistic if you just saved before the game starts.

[hyang6808]

I like the idea of having options to get assistant manager to handle more things for you, espeically those annoying reporters :-)

I think FM09 needs to have a mass select function. For exmaple, after narrowing down search criteria to, say, 20 or so players, I want to ask my scout to take a look at each of them. But I don't want to make 20 combined clicks. In real life, I can pass the list to my scout and say 'go check them out'. I won't say 'go check this guy out, go check that lad out' twenty times (amazing he doesn't get annoyed It'll be nice to get that done in one or two clicks. Later when the reports come back, saying 15 of them are 1 or 2 stars, I want to select those 15 players in one click, and remove all of them from my short list with another click.

For scouts report cards, I don't want to get news item for each of them. All I need is one news item saying scout A filed 5 report cards today, please go check this link when you have time (like the country/region results, but a separate set). The same idea could be applied to shorted listed players' contract expires, signing new contract, being chased, etc.

The other thing I'd like to have is an easy way to find new regens at the start of the new season. To avoid repeating scouting the same player, as their report card got removed after a while, currently, I have to go to player's history page to see if this is a new regen, then scout him. It'd be great to add 'no of years/season in the game' colunmn in some listed view. So that I can easily pick up those new regens for further study.

I believe these changes could save quite a big chunk of playing time, and let my fingers feel less pain.

[hyang6808]

Originally posted by Pukey:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alalzia:

I agree with the op that FM is a game and should be played as a game.

In all games (even sports ones) being better = win FM is the only game where being better means absolutely nothing , i know people will say "sure but this happens in real life" but FM is not real life , it is a game .

It does happen in real life, and that's why it happens in the game, if your team is good enough then you will win things, simple as that but teams very very very very rarely go unbeaten for very long periods of times. It just happens. However I do agree with your points about the team talks and media. Media is just so annoying (especially the old player one) and team talks have too much of an impact. They obviously have an impact in real life, but if you're 1-0 up and you say pleased instead of encourage it won't make you're side lose 6-2 as happened to me once. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is sometimes 'encouragement' is not available when you think it's the proper talk. Why not make all the wording available when I don't choose to let assistant manager handle team talk?

[hyang6808]

Originally posted by smithers08:

although fm08 does have a ew bugs etc i still find the game enjoyable , and the best management game ever . i am sure that if si fix a few of bugs in fm09 e.g confidence section , then i think everyone will be more than happy with the finished item .

keep up the good work si

Yeah, something needs to be with the confidence section. I won EPL before the last round. When I drew 2-2 with Everton in a meanless match, with 11 second string players, fans confidence went very low. What's so funny is at the begining of the next season. The board and fans single-picked this match, asking me to tell the players that kind of performance was unacceptable!

[medievalist]

SI has a tricky balance to strike with this game, in my opinion, between creating a very realistic simulation of football and a game that is fun to play. Last year i think they got it about right - there was a lot of complexity and nuance there for people (not me) who wanted to play with every player's mentality and get maximum performance out of their side, but it was possible to create pretty basic tactics that would perform reasonably well.

I've found that not to be the case so much with this year's edition, perhaps in part because i also like the 4-4-2 which is apparently the Devil's Formation or something in this edition. It has been a much bigger struggle to create a simple tactic set that will see my side (usually) win games that we're meant to win, put up a good fight in games that are supposed to be relatively even, and (somewhat) not embarrass ourselves in games where the other side is favoured. At times it seems that sticking with a 4-4-2 is just not possible.

I still believe (going to stop posting about it now, though) that some sort of optional, in-game, tactical advice would be a huge boon to the game, especially for the 'stats wavers' wwfan mentions above - people who just don't understand where they are going wrong could get some sort of guidance about what the weakness of their current tactic is. Wwfan's insights about the effects of using farrows/barrows instead of altering mentality or tempo are no doubt correct, but there's no way of learning that in game except through trial and error, which for some people is just not fun. Again, some sort of tactical feedback post-game or between games would be useful here.

I understand from previous responses from SI people, though, that they're dead set against including a feature like this.

That being the case, i think that if SI wants to maximize the continuing appeal of this game, they need to make sure that *both* players who find decoding and carefully balancing their tactics *and* people who enjoy other parts of the game the most have a chance to do well.

I think the people who put in lots of work into intricate tactics should be rewarded in the game and should succeed beyond those who do not. It only makes sense, and obviously a reasonable number of FM players are this kind of player. However, in an ideal world the game should still be playable and enjoyable for players who like the depth of the FM game world but don't necessarily want to get immersed in tactics.

Sorry for a long post.

[okerenta]

There are many things that need improving:

Stop the 90 th minute goals all the time because its really annoying

when your leading a ame by 3-0 dont just let the other teams get a goal there is no need and its so predictable and even sometimes they come back to draw level.

when your a small team the make it impossible t do well against big teams or even in cups, i was portmouth once and in the league cup final i was up 2-0 with ten minutes to go and arsenal scored three goals in last ten mintues to win SO UNREALISTIC

they show alot of chances forother team when CPU is losing but when your losing they skip the time. they mak your players give the ball way easy and arerusin to take everything instead of being smart and wasting abit of time or even playin possesion football.

more team talk options, more media options dont make assistants say dumb things because if you play bad but still win the assistant says dissapointing which is pathetic.

Players get unhappy to easily and i you a small club you have to renew contracts all the time to keep player happy and it wates the money in your balance.

Players from all teams no matter how good you are should want to move because players like pato bojan messi never want to leave but whe you those teams the want to leave its unrealstic. Take giovani dos santos for example going to tottenham, if you tried to get him in the game you never could.

Also one time i saw bojans contract expire at barcelona but 3 moths after exiring he was still at the club.

They sack you to unrealistically in the game no matter houch you have won, i recently finished a game with my friend we went really far and i was top of hall of fames winning 12 leagu titles 5 fa cups 3 champions leagues and much more and the sacked me even after winning all that. i was really annoyed.

its impossible to get spanish international job and some other national jobs no matter how big you rep as manager is.

say your going to get sacked you should be able to persuade the bord to kepp you and tell them what you can do if they keep you in the job, look at how long arsene wenger has been in the job although going through a spell without cups.

Also if you want more money you should be able to tell the board that your going to spend it on a good player like kaka.

when spending money it should not come out your balance because it means you can go into debt quickly or even bankrupt.

when your little clubs the make it hard for your to make money to go into the balance and keep your balance healthy.

when you are little clubs player ask for too high wages compared to when at big clubs which is unrealistic.

players should also not just go to a big club because its reputation, they should think about first team football. you should also be able to talk to them about your ambitions for the club to persuade them to come like in real life.

when your small clubs you should be albe to get good youth from your academy not just at the big clubs.

players hould be able to develop into good players by being small clubs not just the big club youth players getting good because they are not getting good first team experience.

if your team is good and your a small team you should be able to do good because you dont just need stars in a team, you need good team chemisty.

any team should be able to beat any team on matchday not just the big teams winning all the time.

also small teams hsould be able to beat big teams away from home because it is possible.

also say your away from home or playing in a cup final against a big team the game just shows loads of chances for the big teams.

some times in the game if your i a cup final and your on the away side the game treats you like you are away instead of being at a neutral ground.

one time i was barcelona getafe beat me 36-0 with me having no players on the pitch even after submitting a team and i was wondering how they restarted the game after scoring the first goal.

i already touched on this but the game does 90th minute goals too much which is annoying and ive seen my up 1-0 and then the other team geats 2 90th minute goals.

also i nevr used to think of this but the y make you draw to many unessacary games and that drops so many points.

you should be able to interact with you players more, say your trying to pick a captain you should be able to ask where they would be a good captain instead of basing on ifluence because in real life peoples influence can go up but not in the game. what i find really really annoying s when the world class players or even any player to be honest misses so many one on ones or even good chances because i no for a fact in real life te would probably score and the chances missed are always rued at the end of the game. if it was once in a while maybe it would be alrite but they do it all the time.

i feel also the even if the player is not very good you should be able to buy someone and shape them into a good player because in real life if a player that is not at a very good club works and trains really hard the can become good.

the game should not reallt use potetial ability to show how good a player will be because they are trying to say a player who has bad potetial cannot train to become a good player which is dumb.

i also feel that this game uses the reputation of teams to decide who wins cups when in real life anyone can win a cup or to even decide the outcome of a match when on a matchday anything is possible

I feel as a manager you should be able to do more things to bond your team like taking the paintballing or something because i know chelsea done that in real life.

Also have pre match dinners and go over with the team the objectives for the next match.

Ive got so many more ideas that i feel can make football manager better and make more realistic and things that i feel need to be fixed.

I hope miles jacobson and any other person from the sports interactive team looks at this and uses some or all of these ideas because then it would really be a great game.

[Chel10ham Town fc]

that was a mamouth post well done

[jod123]

There are many things that need improving:

Stop the 90 th minute goals all the time because its really annoying

when your leading a ame by 3-0 dont just let the other teams get a goal there is no need and its so predictable and even sometimes they come back to draw level.

Happens sometimes but not all the time, like reality.

when your a small team the make it impossible t do well against big teams or even in cups, i was portmouth once and in the league cup final i was up 2-0 with ten minutes to go and arsenal scored three goals in last ten mintues to win SO UNREALISTIC

Not true. Look at Turkey - Czech Republic in the Euros, Man United's comebacks (especially when they won the treble), Liverpools Champions League final comeback. I could go on.

they show alot of chances forother team when CPU is losing but when your losing they skip the time. they mak your players give the ball way easy and arerusin to take everything instead of being smart and wasting abit of time or even playin possesion football.

That is all to do with your tactics not working. Maybe you are ot creating any chances so they have nothing to show.

more team talk options, more media options dont make assistants say dumb things because if you play bad but still win the assistant says dissapointing which is pathetic.

Agreed

Players get unhappy to easily and i you a small club you have to renew contracts all the time to keep player happy and it wates the money in your balance.

Players from all teams no matter how good you are should want to move because players like pato bojan messi never want to leave but whe you those teams the want to leave its unrealstic. Take giovani dos santos for example going to tottenham, if you tried to get him in the game you never could.

Are those 2 points not a contradiction?

Also one time i saw bojans contract expire at barcelona but 3 moths after exiring he was still at the club.

Never saw that. Offer him a contract then.

They sack you to unrealistically in the game no matter houch you have won, i recently finished a game with my friend we went really far and i was top of hall of fames winning 12 leagu titles 5 fa cups 3 champions leagues and much more and the sacked me even after winning all that. i was really annoyed.

Agreed. Confidence is bugged in this version. The patch improves it a little.

its impossible to get spanish international job and some other national jobs no matter how big you rep as manager is.

Agreed, it is slightly too difficult but nationality should still play an important part.

say your going to get sacked you should be able to persuade the bord to kepp you and tell them what you can do if they keep you in the job, look at how long arsene wenger has been in the job although going through a spell without cups.

You can do this at a basic level already. Go to the board room and request more time to rebuild your squad.

Also if you want more money you should be able to tell the board that your going to spend it on a good player like kaka.

when spending money it should not come out your balance because it means you can go into debt quickly or even bankrupt.

Don't take offence but that is a ludicrous suggestion. Where should the money you spend come from then?

when your little clubs the make it hard for your to make money to go into the balance and keep your balance healthy.

It should be harder for a smaller club.

when you are little clubs player ask for too high wages compared to when at big clubs which is unrealistic.

I think it is realistic in the game.

players should also not just go to a big club because its reputation, they should think about first team football. you should also be able to talk to them about your ambitions for the club to persuade them to come like in real life.

Agreed, but think if you offer first team football and a bigger club offers backup he may accept your offer. I can't say that for sure, though.

when your small clubs you should be albe to get good youth from your academy not just at the big clubs.

You can but obviously the better facilites the more good players you get.

players hould be able to develop into good players by being small clubs not just the big club youth players getting good because they are not getting good first team experience.

That us like that in th game already. More first team football means the better the player becomes.

if your team is good and your a small team you should be able to do good because you dont just need stars in a team, you need good team chemisty.

You can do good. Again it depends on your tactics and so on.

any team should be able to beat any team on matchday not just the big teams winning all the time.

Look at the big 4 in the premier league, celtic, rangers in scotland and so on. I think it is realistically reflected in the game. Any team can beat any team in the game.

also small teams hsould be able to beat big teams away from home because it is possible.

also say your away from home or playing in a cup final against a big team the game just shows loads of chances for the big teams.

Sorry but i again come back to your tactics. It is possible.

some times in the game if your i a cup final and your on the away side the game treats you like you are away instead of being at a neutral ground.

I never noticed this but I think some people said it is true so it obviously should be fixed.

one time i was barcelona getafe beat me 36-0 with me having no players on the pitch even after submitting a team and i was wondering how they restarted the game after scoring the first goal.

That is obviously a bug.

i already touched on this but the game does 90th minute goals too much which is annoying and ive seen my up 1-0 and then the other team geats 2 90th minute goals.

also i nevr used to think of this but the y make you draw to many unessacary games and that drops so many points.

You should close out the game.

you should be able to interact with you players more, say your trying to pick a captain you should be able to ask where they would be a good captain instead of basing on ifluence because in real life peoples influence can go up but not in the game. what i find really really annoying s when the world class players or even any player to be honest misses so many one on ones or even good chances because i no for a fact in real life te would probably score and the chances missed are always rued at the end of the game. if it was once in a while maybe it would be alrite but they do it all the time.

Agreed.

i feel also the even if the player is not very good you should be able to buy someone and shape them into a good player because in real life if a player that is not at a very good club works and trains really hard the can become good.

You can do this but not with everyone which is realistic. You can't jsut work up a no-hoper to a world star. They need good ability themselves, first.

the game should not reallt use potetial ability to show how good a player will be because they are trying to say a player who has bad potetial cannot train to become a good player which is dumb.

Nothing wrong with it. If you don't use third party editors, you won't know potential is fixed. If a player has poor potential, of course he will not be any good.

i also feel that this game uses the reputation of teams to decide who wins cups when in real life anyone can win a cup or to even decide the outcome of a match when on a matchday anything is possible

No, it does't it is only a factor.

I feel as a manager you should be able to do more things to bond your team like taking the paintballing or something because i know chelsea done that in real life.

Also have pre match dinners and go over with the team the objectives for the next match.

I don't want it too gimmicky but a few things would be good.

Ive got so many more ideas that i feel can make football manager better and make more realistic and things that i feel need to be fixed.

I hope miles jacobson and any other person from the sports interactive team looks at this and uses some or all of these ideas because then it would really be a great game.

You seemed to put a lot of effort into that post so don't take offence on anything I disagreed with. I did agree with some things, though.

It must have taken you a long time to write that.

[okerenta]

You seemed to put a lot of effort into that post so don't take offence on anything I disagreed with. I did agree with some things, though.

It must have taken you a long time to write that.

thanks for feedback obviously people wont agree with everthing but sometimes the game is so annoying and unrealistic and i felt like gettin alot off my chest

also youmay have ideas that i would agree and disagree with so i understand.

Do you know anything about FM2009 because i have been lokking for info but cant see anything

[jod123]

thanks for feedback obviously people wont agree with everthing but sometimes the game is so annoying and unrealistic and i felt like gettin alot off my chest

also youmay have ideas that i would agree and disagree with so i understand.

Do you know anything about FM2009 because i have been lokking for info but cant see anything

I think there will be info at the end of this month. There is none at the moment.

[okerenta]

I think there will be info at the end of this month. There is none at the moment.

do you know if there is any info in any of the post regarding FM 2009 and are going to play FM live ad do u no if its good

[jod123]

do you know if there is any info in any of the post regarding FM 2009 and are going to play FM live ad do u no if its good

No info on anything about FM2009. SI are keep their cards close to their chest about it. I think I will stick with the PC game rather than FM live. There is a FM Live forum and I think that has been announced so you can look in there about it. I never tried it so don't have an opinion.

[Smac]

I agree with the OP on nearly everything. Thanks for the post!

And I'll just say this r/e the Media and Team Talks. They are boring. Without a real sense of player personalities and real rivalries between believable manager personalities, these things are formulaic and no fun after the very first time. Some things in life are fun more than once though

[Ishmael]

If only regens were good as original players, all the other stuff would be forgiven

But I don't want to start a game knowing that in 10 seasons all regen players would be 1/2 as good as original db players, even with same PA/CA....

Give us good regen system, and I am not going to say a single word against repeating bugs season after season....

I remember the fun of producing my homegrowh squad, and winning trophies with them, back in CM01/02...