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The Art of Numbers, not attributes - A journey extracting the best out of my players


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Really cool.

Apart from anything else, trying (and probably failing a lot) in a save like this would force me to learn much more about interpreting data. Something I need to do. The importance of numbers, both in the game and in the real game, is only going to go one way. The scientific method rules :)

I'll be following this with great interest.

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I’m the same as @Cleon got it skinned so full removal of all attributes to increase immersion and remove any option to view them.

also scouting players by watching games and seeing how they performance in certain situations to go beyond the statistics. 
 

The thing I found most rewarding was using the stats to find players who play in other positions than the one I’m looking for to find outliers and then retraining them.

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@Cleon do you think you'd still be able to play that way in FM21 version? I'm asking this because (and I haven't played FM22 yet) it look like FM22 has more player data to show, like the player perfomance for example, which 21 version doesn't have.

Thanks.

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31 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleon do you think you'd still be able to play that way in FM21 version? I'm asking this because (and I haven't played FM22 yet) it look like FM22 has more player data to show, like the player perfomance for example, which 21 version doesn't have.

Thanks.

Yups I have done it on my main save every year for 5 years now I think.

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@Cleon, @danielgear What would be a good skin to use? I have always wanted to play this way but I am picky when it comes to skins.

@Rashidi I know this thread is about your players, but how would you go about building your backroom staff? One would assume their attributes are also hidden and there are no stats generated for them.

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2 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

@Cleon, @danielgear What would be a good skin to use? I have always wanted to play this way but I am picky when it comes to skins.

@Rashidi I know this thread is about your players, but how would you go about building your backroom staff? One would assume their attributes are also hidden and there are no stats generated for them.

I use Tato and remove/hide all the panels that need doing. Well I say "I" but I mean the lad who creates the panels for me :D Sadly I can't share them though as I was asked not to make them public for some reason. But Rashidi's method in his post is a decent work around to hide the attributes. Then just avoid the pages where stuff isn't removed like the progress tab etc.

 

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27 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I use Tato and remove/hide all the panels that need doing. Well I say "I" but I mean the lad who creates the panels for me :D Sadly I can't share them though as I was asked not to make them public for some reason. But Rashidi's method in his post is a decent work around to hide the attributes. Then just avoid the pages where stuff isn't removed like the progress tab etc.

 

Thanks, I will take a look.

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Something that would really help this approach would be to add the ability to create custom views to the stats tabs/reports on your own players. 

 

I'm probably missing something, but you can't see the same level of stats on your own players as you can with scouted. On the scouted players screen you can change the view and add lots of stats. 

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I have played attributeless for the last three iterations and will never go back because I found I was overlooking a lot of very good players based on their attributes rather than their stats.

@wkdsoulmade these great panels which I have tried to emulate myself (minus the attributes obviously) but I'm seriously useless at this sort of stuff. It would be awesome if some pointers could be given to people who are wanting to go attributeless completely on how to set up stats only panels.

1788181490_DarwinNez_Profile.png.b2227f155b8c7983a35b99611cbef513.png

889113736_RomanYaremchuk_Profile-4.png.28b5b91dcb1d86091228cc5ca05a9846.png

822809597_MauroIcardi_Profile-2.png.82bd62693ad86122864ee582d1e741fd.png

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10 hours ago, Cleon said:

I actually had one of the skinners from the skinning forum on here, make me panels that removed all attributes from the game and same with star ratings. So players, staff etc had none and the training screens you showed above had all been removed too. There was no way to stumble across them by accident at all in the game, it's great fun. I used fake players too so I didn't know who anyway was to add another level of complexity too. I also manually scout players when my scouts found someone (or if I use the data available to identify someone instead) too and give them grades based on a very complex system that I've created for myself to make it more immersive. Every single position and role is graded differently too. I plan on writing about it for FM23 in more detail, I've already done a lot in preparation for the launch of the new website.

In regards to trying to recall matches from the past, I have a Google Doc open when playing and if something interesting happens during a game I write a few notes down and instantly save the PKM and upload it to the document. That way, if I have the notes I can flesh them out into a story/analysis etc.

IIRC you were playing in Brazil in FM18 and also trying to get a SV working well without attributes.

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5 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I have played attributeless for the last three iterations and will never go back because I found I was overlooking a lot of very good players based on their attributes rather than their stats.

@wkdsoulmade these great panels which I have tried to emulate myself (minus the attributes obviously) but I'm seriously useless at this sort of stuff. It would be awesome if some pointers could be given to people who are wanting to go attributeless completely on how to set up stats only panels.

 

1788181490_DarwinNez_Profile.png.b2227f155b8c7983a35b99611cbef513.png

889113736_RomanYaremchuk_Profile-4.png.28b5b91dcb1d86091228cc5ca05a9846.png

 

Ive still got the code for these two somwhere, i'll dig it out and send it over tomo. 

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5 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

Ive still got the code for these two somwhere, i'll dig it out and send it over tomo. 

It would be amazing if these were available. It would add a totally new dimension to the game.

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6 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

That would be amazing!!!!

code for the data hub boxes (Nunez Image) : the category number relates to each of the below (ive not worked out the team ones yet)

        <!--Performance-->
    <widget class="data_analyst_visualisation_widget" id="vis3" visualisation_type="polygon" data_type="player" category="3" file="widgets/data analyst visualisation mini2" hidden="false">
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt" />
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="PclC" set_property="comp" />
    </widget>

 

  visualisation type="polygon"
data type="player"
 
0  Team General TEAM GENERAL 
1  Team Attacking TEAM OFFENSIVE 
Team Defending TEAM DEFENSIVE 
3  Defending DEFENSIVE DEFENDER 
4  Defensive Midfielder DEFENSIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
5  Wide Play DEFENSIVE WIDE MIDFIELDER 
6  Pressing DEFENSIVE FORWARD 
7  Creativity 1 CREATIVE DEFENDER 
8  Midfield CREATIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
9  Creativity 2 CREATIVE WIDE FORWARD 
10  Creativty 3 CREATIVE CENTRAL FORWARD 
11  General Performance BALANCED 
12  Wide Play 2 ATTACKING WIDE DEFENDER 
13  Attacking ATTACKING CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
14  Attacking 2 ATTACKING WIDE FORWARD 
15  Attacking 3 ATTACKING CENTRAL FORWARD 
16  Goalkeeping DEFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 
17  Goalkeeping 2 OFFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 

 

The code for the yemachuk (data hub)

                <widget class="data_hub_player_analytics_panel" id="tab4" late_loading="true"  file="data_hub/data hub player analytics panel" dont_set_embedded_title="true">
                            <translation id="title" type="use" value="Data Hub" />
                            <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt"/>
                        </widget>

 

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4 minutes ago, wkdsoul said:

code for the data hub boxes (Nunez Image) : the category number relates to each of the below (ive not worked out the team ones yet)

        <!--Performance-->
    <widget class="data_analyst_visualisation_widget" id="vis3" visualisation_type="polygon" data_type="player" category="3" file="widgets/data analyst visualisation mini2" hidden="false">
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt" />
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="PclC" set_property="comp" />
    </widget>

 

  visualisation type="polygon"
data type="player"
 
0  Team General TEAM GENERAL 
1  Team Attacking TEAM OFFENSIVE 
Team Defending TEAM DEFENSIVE 
3  Defending DEFENSIVE DEFENDER 
4  Defensive Midfielder DEFENSIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
5  Wide Play DEFENSIVE WIDE MIDFIELDER 
6  Pressing DEFENSIVE FORWARD 
7  Creativity 1 CREATIVE DEFENDER 
8  Midfield CREATIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
9  Creativity 2 CREATIVE WIDE FORWARD 
10  Creativty 3 CREATIVE CENTRAL FORWARD 
11  General Performance BALANCED 
12  Wide Play 2 ATTACKING WIDE DEFENDER 
13  Attacking ATTACKING CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
14  Attacking 2 ATTACKING WIDE FORWARD 
15  Attacking 3 ATTACKING CENTRAL FORWARD 
16  Goalkeeping DEFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 
17  Goalkeeping 2 OFFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 

 

The code for the yemachuk (data hub)

                <widget class="data_hub_player_analytics_panel" id="tab4" late_loading="true"  file="data_hub/data hub player analytics panel" dont_set_embedded_title="true">
                            <translation id="title" type="use" value="Data Hub" />
                            <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt"/>
                        </widget>

 

I feel like Christmas has come early thank you so much. :)

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7 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I feel like Christmas has come early thank you so much. :)

Any prob send me a PM and i'll see what I can do.  In the middle of a skin revamp anyway. 

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THE GOALKEEPERS DILEMMA

Traditionally assessing a keeper through stats has been difficult. We have usually just gone with how many has he conceded. Today we have the xGmodel which doesn't make things easier. What numbers are we supposed to look at, there can be a lot. Do we look at xG against, conceded, shots on target against?  That was my recent issue.

So our goalkeeper Matteo Pisseri has opted to retire, previously in my games I would just search by attributes it made life easy. Now with this different approach, I have found that keepers can be a lot more annoying to find. 

in the game from custom views we can only generate these statisitics
1. Clean Sheets
2. Conceded
3. Conceded/90
4. Save Ratio (which doesn't split between shots from outside the box and those from inside the box)
5. Expected Save Percentage (which I assume is the inverse of xG in other words these is the percentage of shots he was expected to save, more on this later)
6. Saves Held, Tipped and Parried
7. Mistakes Leading to goal

 

When you go to player performance reports from coaches you get under Advanced Goalkeeping a scattergroup that plots expected goals prevented vs save percentage which is incredibly helpful if we had expected goals prevented as a searchable option under custom view. Why?

Save Ratio by itself can and is usually misleading, it needs other metrics.

A goal area is roughly 244cmx732cm and an average goalkeeper is expected to cover 24% of the goals area ( gonna avoid the math here and keep things simple), but if we assume keepers are 1.90 on average and you use those dimensions you will arrive at a similar number using a vitruvian circle to assume the goalkeepers area.  On average most keepers save around 69% of shots on target, these ratios will depend on whether the shot is inside the box or outside the box.

Therefore since a keeper already covers 24% of the area of a goal, it implies that 45% of his saves (which is basically 69%-24%) will come from..... his attributes :-) I don't think we are too far away since, on average the penalty conversion rate is around 76%.


Ideally to evaluate any keeper it would be easier if we had ...

Clean sheets per 90 vs Shots on target against per 90 as a statistic by teams which we currently don't. Why would this be helpful, If we plotted that as scattergroup then any keeper who faces a high shots on target against per 90 and has a high number of clean sheets would be extremely valuable. Such keepers are keeping a high number of clean sheets in spite of facing many shots

THE SAVE RATIO

Save ratios are helpful, but they don't account for how sides defend. Lets say you have a very organised defence and you are giving strikers poor quality chances, then a keepers save ratio could be higher than a keeper who has a poor defence that allows them more shots from within the area.  What we need is Expected goals per shot on target against.  We also need to add  Expected Goals Conceded/90 to the filters as well. The best thing we have at the moment is expected goals prevented and I would hope that is added as an option we can filter.

So I have ended up at a crossroads on my save as I decide how to find my keeper with the current tools without having to use an excel spreadsheet, cos I made a promise to myself that I would NEVER use spreadsheets for a game ever again :-)


INFORMATION ACCESSIBLE BY LEAGUES

Within the league data we can find under Player Detailed several bits of information, and I think I found a workable ratio, 

Expected Save Percentage:   I am assuming this stat calculates the difficulty of the shots a goalkeeper faces, based on variables such as shot placement, velocity, distance, etc, to determine the chance that an average keeper will save the shot. Basically in a nutshell, the chance to save a shot.

Expected Goals Prevented - Essentially how many high chance goals a keeper prevented

Saves per 90

Expected saves per 90

So this is how I am gonna find my next keeper:

A keepers Expected Save Percentage cannot be lower than his save ratio,GK1.thumb.png.39be6c4942b6c0f94096b43888f2cf8b.png

In our own league we have these keepers who have a decent expected goals prevented. Next

1272891019_SavePer.thumb.png.cb7f0935f711cf8b4bb21b289706ed09.png

My eyes immediately land on Andrei Vlad

 

Now there is a scatter group for advanced goalkeeping stats which is why i recommend you always SAVE before Jun 23, otherwise you could lose the preceding seasons stats. When you go to check Reports>PLayer Performance, you will be able to access the scattergroups.
858546102_AdvancedKeeperstats.png.7dbbc568b5a28ee681f24af1fc7e76d0.png

We want our goalkeepers to be in the Quality Shotstopping/saves most shots quadrant. And it clearly shows that I am heading in the right path when I search for a keeper, Andre Vlad is in the same quadrant, his expected goals prevented is slightly better, and if I use this method, who needs attributes!  So this keeper is a firm B, in my books. A would be the keepers higher than 80% and >6 prevented.


 

 

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8 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I feel like Christmas has come early thank you so much. :)

working on my juego de posicion game.. (well trying to skin the marking where any pitch/tactic is)

 20220723221951_1.thumb.jpg.365b3e6be15f9747bf57c6f8880327f8.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

working on my juego de posicion game.. (well trying to skin the marking where any pitch/tactic is)

 20220723221951_1.thumb.jpg.365b3e6be15f9747bf57c6f8880327f8.jpg

 

Oh ..I need this. 

Or at least did when running my threads on this. I still always try to play this way tactically.

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9 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

working on my juego de posicion game.. (well trying to skin the marking where any pitch/tactic is)

 20220723221951_1.thumb.jpg.365b3e6be15f9747bf57c6f8880327f8.jpg

 

Guardiola style!! That would be so much easier than a piece of paper and a pen..............

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12 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

working on my juego de posicion game.. (well trying to skin the marking where any pitch/tactic is)

 20220723221951_1.thumb.jpg.365b3e6be15f9747bf57c6f8880327f8.jpg

 

You have a real talent bud. Thats another thing of beauty and for a person like me whose a big proponent of Juego de Posición it's lovely. I want to thank you again for sharing the code for the panels, it's really appreciated.

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20 hours ago, Rashidi said:

THE GOALKEEPERS DILEMMA

Traditionally assessing a keeper through stats has been difficult. We have usually just gone with how many has he conceded. Today we have the xGmodel which doesn't make things easier. What numbers are we supposed to look at, there can be a lot. Do we look at xG against, conceded, shots on target against?  That was my recent issue.

So our goalkeeper Matteo Pisseri has opted to retire, previously in my games I would just search by attributes it made life easy. Now with this different approach, I have found that keepers can be a lot more annoying to find. 

in the game from custom views we can only generate these statisitics
1. Clean Sheets
2. Conceded
3. Conceded/90
4. Save Ratio (which doesn't split between shots from outside the box and those from inside the box)
5. Expected Save Percentage (which I assume is the inverse of xG in other words these is the percentage of shots he was expected to save, more on this later)
6. Saves Held, Tipped and Parried
7. Mistakes Leading to goal

 

When you go to player performance reports from coaches you get under Advanced Goalkeeping a scattergroup that plots expected goals prevented vs save percentage which is incredibly helpful if we had expected goals prevented as a searchable option under custom view. Why?

Save Ratio by itself can and is usually misleading, it needs other metrics.

A goal area is roughly 244cmx732cm and an average goalkeeper is expected to cover 24% of the goals area ( gonna avoid the math here and keep things simple), but if we assume keepers are 1.90 on average and you use those dimensions you will arrive at a similar number using a vitruvian circle to assume the goalkeepers area.  On average most keepers save around 69% of shots on target, these ratios will depend on whether the shot is inside the box or outside the box.

Therefore since a keeper already covers 24% of the area of a goal, it implies that 45% of his saves (which is basically 69%-24%) will come from..... his attributes :-) I don't think we are too far away since, on average the penalty conversion rate is around 76%.


Ideally to evaluate any keeper it would be easier if we had ...

Clean sheets per 90 vs Shots on target against per 90 as a statistic by teams which we currently don't. Why would this be helpful, If we plotted that as scattergroup then any keeper who faces a high shots on target against per 90 and has a high number of clean sheets would be extremely valuable. Such keepers are keeping a high number of clean sheets in spite of facing many shots

THE SAVE RATIO

Save ratios are helpful, but they don't account for how sides defend. Lets say you have a very organised defence and you are giving strikers poor quality chances, then a keepers save ratio could be higher than a keeper who has a poor defence that allows them more shots from within the area.  What we need is Expected goals per shot on target against.  We also need to add  Expected Goals Conceded/90 to the filters as well. The best thing we have at the moment is expected goals prevented and I would hope that is added as an option we can filter.

So I have ended up at a crossroads on my save as I decide how to find my keeper with the current tools without having to use an excel spreadsheet, cos I made a promise to myself that I would NEVER use spreadsheets for a game ever again :-)


INFORMATION ACCESSIBLE BY LEAGUES

Within the league data we can find under Player Detailed several bits of information, and I think I found a workable ratio, 

Expected Save Percentage:   I am assuming this stat calculates the difficulty of the shots a goalkeeper faces, based on variables such as shot placement, velocity, distance, etc, to determine the chance that an average keeper will save the shot. Basically in a nutshell, the chance to save a shot.

Expected Goals Prevented - Essentially how many high chance goals a keeper prevented

Saves per 90

Expected saves per 90

So this is how I am gonna find my next keeper:

A keepers Expected Save Percentage cannot be lower than his save ratio,GK1.thumb.png.39be6c4942b6c0f94096b43888f2cf8b.png

In our own league we have these keepers who have a decent expected goals prevented. Next

1272891019_SavePer.thumb.png.cb7f0935f711cf8b4bb21b289706ed09.png

My eyes immediately land on Andrei Vlad

 

Now there is a scatter group for advanced goalkeeping stats which is why i recommend you always SAVE before Jun 23, otherwise you could lose the preceding seasons stats. When you go to check Reports>PLayer Performance, you will be able to access the scattergroups.
858546102_AdvancedKeeperstats.png.7dbbc568b5a28ee681f24af1fc7e76d0.png

We want our goalkeepers to be in the Quality Shotstopping/saves most shots quadrant. And it clearly shows that I am heading in the right path when I search for a keeper, Andre Vlad is in the same quadrant, his expected goals prevented is slightly better, and if I use this method, who needs attributes!  So this keeper is a firm B, in my books. A would be the keepers higher than 80% and >6 prevented.


 

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I'm really happy that I'm realizing we use the same stats for the same positions. I'm so happy attributeless play is gaining more traction and you are one of the key people to convert people to do this.

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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@Rashidi, I notice on your squad view that you have the column for "playing style". How much attention do you pay to that and does it make sense trying to get a decent mixture of playing styles or is it better to try and have more players with the same style? I do know that the actual column title is something along the lines of "Assistants opinion" so it could change depending on the assistant, but it is also something I have never really paid much attention to before.

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2 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

@Rashidi, I notice on your squad view that you have the column for "playing style". How much attention do you pay to that and does it make sense trying to get a decent mixture of playing styles or is it better to try and have more players with the same style? I do know that the actual column title is something along the lines of "Assistants opinion" so it could change depending on the assistant, but it is also something I have never really paid much attention to before.

My word, thank you I have been trying to work out how he got that. Can I ask how you get the pros/cons too please?

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2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

 key people to convert people to do this.

I am not trying to convert people to it, I still think people should play the game the way they want to play it. And if people feel attributes are the way to go, I am all for it. I am just doing this so people don't forget that stats can be just as important. And I think people who can incorporate both an understanding of attributes and statistical discovery will have a lot more fun playing the game.

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2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I am not trying to convert people to it, I still think people should play the game the way they want to play it. And if people feel attributes are the way to go, I am all for it. I am just doing this so people don't forget that stats can be just as important. And I think people who can incorporate both an understanding of attributes and statistical discovery will have a lot more fun playing the game.

I was literally in the process of editing that comment when you responded. I didn't mean it to sound like that I  meant to incorporate stats more.

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8 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

@Rashidi, I notice on your squad view that you have the column for "playing style". How much attention do you pay to that and does it make sense trying to get a decent mixture of playing styles or is it better to try and have more players with the same style? I do know that the actual column title is something along the lines of "Assistants opinion" so it could change depending on the assistant, but it is also something I have never really paid much attention to before.

I like to have players with a mix. And yeah it is one of the filters from  Scouts  opinion of players style.

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2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

You have a real talent bud. Thats another thing of beauty and for a person like me whose a big proponent of Juego de Posición it's lovely. I want to thank you again for sharing the code for the panels, it's really appreciated.

this needs alot of cleaning up, but might have something sorted in a week or two. ill whip it over when im done.

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OUR SEARCH FOR A KEEPER

I just finished the stream spent the first 5 minutes muted which is a normal thing for me..erm

The search for a keeper was focused on looking at several metrics

1. Conceded/90 v Expected goals conceded per 90

2. Expected goals Prevented vs Save ratio

 

The first metric depends on your team and you need to do a deeper dive. The second metric is faster but less accurate but at least you get a picture of whether a keeper is reliant. We whittled it down to a couple of keepers. There were several contenders, one was Russo who happened to have some crazy numbers in Serie B and we decided to bring him on as a backup.  For less than 1m that was a no brainer.

When you scout players depending on your skin you can get detailed scattergroups and polygons. With tato these are found within a tab. A young brazilian keeper caught our eye. By 18 he had had two full seasons of football with a top flight brazilian club. 

His expected goals prevented vs save ratio indicated he was good.
|Untitled_1_13.1.thumb.jpg.eae775da5614c68212e102b50ce2cfba.jpg


The media description of him was "Commanding Goalkeeper" we signed him for 17million which is the most I have ever paid for a player ( i never scrooge on keepers btw), and then once he joined the club his description changed to Wonderkid and his value went from 17million to around 70million.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, mikelfc8 said:

@RashidiThat keeper certainly vindicates the approach. Did you expect it to be so successful so immediately?

 

This may be a daft question, but can you access stats from previous seasons?

Well the keeper fluffed his very first shot against in the Serie A so I guess it was nerves because he produced some outstanding matches in the next few. He was rated 7.6 even when we lost one game. Overall though he was solid between the sticks against Atalanta whom we destroyed 3-0.


Really happy with our keeper signing. Stands tall when needed, Loads of solid reflex saves and is already just behind Mike Maignan and Onana as the most effective keepers in Serie A.


And, no you cant access previous season chalkboard stats from within the game. If you want to keep them you need to export them before Jun 23 out to an excel spreadsheet. Personally i am > 50 years and my days of using excel sheets for playing FM died in the days of CM. I don't want to play FM with an excel spreadsheet. Its actually pretty easy to export and keep them in an excel spreadsheet.

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11 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Well the keeper fluffed his very first shot against in the Serie A so I guess it was nerves because he produced some outstanding matches in the next few. He was rated 7.6 even when we lost one game. Overall though he was solid between the sticks against Atalanta whom we destroyed 3-0.


Really happy with our keeper signing. Stands tall when needed, Loads of solid reflex saves and is already just behind Mike Maignan and Onana as the most effective keepers in Serie A.


And, no you cant access previous season chalkboard stats from within the game. If you want to keep them you need to export them before Jun 23 out to an excel spreadsheet. Personally i am > 50 years and my days of using excel sheets for playing FM died in the days of CM. I don't want to play FM with an excel spreadsheet. Its actually pretty easy to export and keep them in an excel spreadsheet.

I'm with you on that, spreadsheets seem too much like work.

it's a shame the game doesn't retain the information, it could tell some interesting tales.

The keeper sounds excellent, but there's never any accounting for first night nerves.

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On 23/07/2022 at 14:44, wkdsoul said:

code for the data hub boxes (Nunez Image) : the category number relates to each of the below (ive not worked out the team ones yet)

        <!--Performance-->
    <widget class="data_analyst_visualisation_widget" id="vis3" visualisation_type="polygon" data_type="player" category="3" file="widgets/data analyst visualisation mini2" hidden="false">
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt" />
                        <record id="object_property" get_property="PclC" set_property="comp" />
    </widget>

 

  visualisation type="polygon"
data type="player"
 
0  Team General TEAM GENERAL 
1  Team Attacking TEAM OFFENSIVE 
Team Defending TEAM DEFENSIVE 
3  Defending DEFENSIVE DEFENDER 
4  Defensive Midfielder DEFENSIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
5  Wide Play DEFENSIVE WIDE MIDFIELDER 
6  Pressing DEFENSIVE FORWARD 
7  Creativity 1 CREATIVE DEFENDER 
8  Midfield CREATIVE CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
9  Creativity 2 CREATIVE WIDE FORWARD 
10  Creativty 3 CREATIVE CENTRAL FORWARD 
11  General Performance BALANCED 
12  Wide Play 2 ATTACKING WIDE DEFENDER 
13  Attacking ATTACKING CENTRAL MIDFIELDER 
14  Attacking 2 ATTACKING WIDE FORWARD 
15  Attacking 3 ATTACKING CENTRAL FORWARD 
16  Goalkeeping DEFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 
17  Goalkeeping 2 OFFENSIVE GOALKEEPER 

 

The code for the yemachuk (data hub)

                <widget class="data_hub_player_analytics_panel" id="tab4" late_loading="true"  file="data_hub/data hub player analytics panel" dont_set_embedded_title="true">
                            <translation id="title" type="use" value="Data Hub" />
                            <record id="object_property" get_property="objt" set_property="objt"/>
                        </widget>

 

So how do I actually use this code? Sorry if it's a stupid question

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And I said I wouldn't do this, I will do a video to explain this and link it here.  What I plan to do is explain how using my formation as a starting point I go about determining the stats I will be tracking for each position.
343368783_MoneyBallPalermo.thumb.jpg.c4595a67a42393447d6894683c25266a.jpg

When it comes to Scoring stats there are a range of numbers I will evaluate that finally gives me an idea of what a players non penalty goal xG is. Basically how good is he at finishing chances that are not penalties. This can also be a cool way to see if your system is creating chances.

I will also evaluate the creative output of my players, there are a couple of creative types in any team: some cross, some pass, some do set pieces. A basic way is to just whittle them down to chances created per 90 over passes played per 90. That gives us a ratio that is indicative of the proportion of creative output from a player

Finally we have defensive actions that can take several forms, I take all defensive actions ranging from headers won, tackles won and clearances. Interceptions per 90 are also included. I wanted to find a way of splitting key tackles per 90 as well, but i think I will ignore it for now in the calculation. However Key tackles per 90 are usually a decent indicator of how alert a player is at stopping a goal scoring action with a tackle.

And yes I have done a simple spreadsheet, so out of practice.
Bah.thumb.jpg.8e74c27ca7e646d5e6b0d92121bf416a.jpg

Thats my team Palermo from this season. There is more but I plan to do that on a stream later today, or rather in the next half hour or so.  

I am still working on this... so there is more to come including a view I use to evaluate my starting 11's contributions during a season. That spreadsheet I linked above can also be used to import data from player search windows.

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We added Ramiro Hernandez to our team this season. We signed him because he had a good interceptions/90 ratio and stood 1.88m tall. Previously our best defensive pairing was Lorenzo Pirola and Saguesten Anderson. That partnership has lasted from serie C all the way through to Serie A.

After a season of play I typically review how we have done. There are several metrics I like to track:

GWIN, TCON/90 and TGLS/90 

These are broad metrics that can help. Tobias and Pirola as a defensive pairing we win 51% of the time.  When Hernandez plays he is in winning matches 59% of the time. I also created a scoring system for myself that measures striking, creative and defensive actions. I am not the only one to do this, FMStag has also done something like this as well, and I think most people are going to end up along similar paths. 

We are lacking another striking option up front, overplaying Morten Hansen is having its sideffects. So we went out to look for a winger/inside forward. The metrics I used were dribbles/90, goals, xg, ccc created by 90, fouls against, distance/90. The goal here is to find someone who takes on defenders, and either draws fouls or gets inside the area to score.

 

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6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

When it comes to Scoring stats there are a range of numbers I will evaluate that finally gives me an idea of what a players non penalty goal xG is. Basically how good is he at finishing chances that are not penalties. This can also be a cool way to see if your system is creating chances.

How do you calculate xG of penalties?

 

// nevermind - I found it in previous post 😅

Edited by prysiu
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Time for me to do some analysis, the defensive actions formula was amended since the last post. I realized I was averaging it wrong. And don't forget you can also use the data hub 
 

C.thumb.jpg.e6be4b5cbfb2d5dc74e8ee908386fc97.jpg

Let me explain the spreadsheet really quickly. I have basically split Defensive Actions, Creative Actions and Scoring Actions separately. Far right I have calculated the non penalty xGs for goals. Essentially trying too find out what the goal output is not counting pens.

Defensive Actions =  Clearances per 90, Interceptions/90, Headers/90 and Tackles/90
Creative Actions = Passes/90 divided by Chances Created per 90
Scoring actions are basically the ratio of non pen goals to xG

A player with good defensive actions only is generally playing a defend duty and/ or a role that is not expected to create
A player with good scoring actions and good creative actions could be a scoring threat like a mezzala, inside forward etc. It just says that the player can create chances and score
A player with good creative actions could be a playmaker, fullback that gets up or a winger that creates chances with.

I basically haven't finished this because I also track fouls against with crosses attempted or shots attempted to track players that break tiers, these could be inside forwards or wingers on attack duty or even wingbacks on attack duty, that I normally consider separately to identify different kinds of options.  

For example: I could be looking for a inside forward, so I will look for good scoring actions, plus take ons eg, dribbles/90 and indications that he is drawing plenty of fouls.  Currently I am evaluating strikers who can do a job as inside forwards so I am using this metric within my filters. 

LAST SEASON
We were in the top 3 for quite a while last season but fell away in the final stretch because I became experimental again. I decided to mess around with my setpieces and it tossed me for a curve. Plus I lost sight of some fundamental basics.

Lorenzo Pirola and Saguesten were my standout defenders, however this season even after signing a new defender, I was hesitant to break up my defensive pairing because it was still good. I was too focused on how good Pirola was at winning key tackles. Now when I extracted the full numbers for the season, it painted a different picture.

In terms of defensive actions Sagstuen Andersen was 6.1, the new defender Hernandez was close in numbers to him but Pirola should have never been starting. He was winning fewer headers than the other 2 defenders. And like I mentioned in the last post there is a potential that the Hernandez/Sagstuen partnership could be the strongest partnership we have ever seen. Don't forget the data hub has great tools too.


1379748954_ContestedHeaders.png.3e2c10c12cf09a59e14b4e2b1b7ac2ac.png

Pirola's defensive output was decent but nowhere near them. Now returning to my spreadsheet, I am now going to evaluate midfield.
392634941_MoneyballScore.thumb.jpg.aff38e1a20d47a98faf33a14a772e75e.jpg

In midfield our holding mid Tarcisio is easily the best choice in terms of defensive performance, flanked by Casadei and Faticanti, who are both good all rounders. Casadei and Faticanti play as Mezzala and BBM in my system, but both need to work hard and win the ball back. Faticanti has defensive actions of around 2.35 and Casadei has even higher numbers which has surprised me. At 2.79, this now poses a problem for us heading into next season.

In terms of training now I need to focus, Raimondi and Dinho along training plans that work on their , anticipation and concentration. We only have Christian Kouan coming off the bench to cover for them. Casadei, Rodriguez and Sagstuen are the oldest players in the starting 11(27,28,26) the rest of the squad is between 18-23

Raimondi has a bit of bad form in the last few games of the season and I plan to give him more game time and use him more consistently, he appears to have a good range of passing. As a RPM he will also be able to train his mental and physical attributes eg. concentration.

Dinho is by far our worst player, while he has great defensive actions, and has played well. 4 games are just too few. He needs to go out on loan.

Amerigo Bova is 23 playing as a left back, Holwerda is 18 and is also a left back. Holwerda has a 60 million transfer value plastered on his head because he is that good, but in terms of performances, Bova is putting better numbers in defensively. The choice is simple. Bova is first choice next season and Holwerda will continue learning from him.

When I look back at my season we were imperious at one point and brittle for almost 2 months. Identifying Pirola as the weak link via stats was eye opening.

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Its WIP, and I am a muppet when it comes to excel, but if people want to use it and then improve it by all means, i will link it here, I tried to find a way to avoid the infinity error for a null value, so you might see fields like this IF(AK3=0,"",(H3-K3)/AK3) where AK3 could be a 0 value. The actual calculation is meant to be (H3-K3)/AK3) for example. Or and its not google sheet but excel.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2s6nzaat21har0pjux471/BTN-Moneyball-Master.xlsx?dl=0&rlkey=5d8rcnue85v605e4ih23o9nt7

 

 

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So I've given a bit of an introduction at the top. Now I will walk through the steps. I do play without attributes, though I am not the only one who does this in the community. FMStag is a great source of information for a statistical deep dive into the moneyball side of the game. You can find stuff from him here Player Search Tool - Moneyball, data recruitment etc - FM Stag. I strongly recommend following him and his updates.

 And of course Cult0fFM who has a Moneyball Series on his channel. You can follow his series here. He covers a lot on his series and it should be easy enough for anyone to follow.  I don't claim to be the authority on how to apply a moneyball approach to football manager, and believe me I will make mistakes, but so far i am enjoying this approach so much it really is the first time I am playing an edition of FM from one cycle to the next. What FMstag offers is a search tool you can use, there are slight differences in our approach, but the essence is the same. My goal here is to help you understand the process of how one would apply data analytics to evaluating your squad and performances.  I hope I can make this easy to follow, so if you want more information you can check these sources out. The Cult of FM actually explains why he uses Team Conceded/90 vs Team Goals Scored/90 as well. And its not hard to follow.


Let's get cracking. For any numbers driven approach you will need benchmarks, you will need to set expectations. And you absolutely need to know the context in which you are analyzing that data. When you are evaluating players you want to evaluate players playing at similar levels of competition. When you are looking for additions to your squad, you actually need to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve with your tactic. I will walk you through the process of how I do that, starting with the tactic, then the sources of information I need in the game and finally how I present that information to myself so I can make informed decisions. Numbers don't lie, but its easy to use numbers the wrong way and that can mislead you. So having a realistic approach is important.

1212799209_MoneyBallPalermo.thumb.jpg.05357563cef43734b0317c45cd38f6cc.jpg

This is the tactic and these are the metrics I want to pay attention to when analyzing my squad. In red are the scoring metrics for each group. I covered the metrics earlier and will cover that again in a video that I will link for those of you who prefer listening to my boring voice.

HOW WILL THE TACTIC PLAY

The tactic is meant to be played on normal tempo, but I want to be able to switch between low and fast tempo too. I want to draw teams into the middle where I will press them and tackle them hard through personal instructions I have given the 3 centre mids.

I expect to win the ball in transition, which basically means that I want the opposition attacks breaking down there, the mezzala and the box to box midfielder are expected to feed either the flanks via the fullbacks or find a way to play the ball into dangerous areas.

Occasionally I expect the mezzala to play the ball with the outside of his foot to find the Advanced forward on the right with dangerous passes. The box to box midfielder in some games is expected to arrive late into the box and in other games I expect him to be the sort who will provide extra protection down the flanks.

Naturally the left side of formation could be weaker, so I expect the left central defender to do help that area out with good reading of the game via a solid set of defensive actions. 

In attack I expect to see the fullbacks, the mezzala and the attacking playmaker creating the most chances. The AP(A) will be the focal point of most of my attacks so he is expected to take players on with good dribbling. I do expect him to break the opposition’s defensive midfield tier and sometimes arrive into the box either with or without the ball. This necessitates having good intelligence, on and off the ball. He will also be pitching in with goals as I expect him to be a free striker against certain formations.

The strikeforce could alternate in terms of roles, in some games I may want to change one role to a pressing forward so that we keep one defender occupied, this could lead to him pulling the defender away making space for the AP(A) to score or create even better goal scoring chances. 

I do not expect to be getting most of my assists from crosses, in fact most of them should be coming from through balls.

When I make any tactic I have expectations and with those expectations I will have be doing several things. I will play the game on a highlights mode that allows me to see enough action to determine if things are going to plan. And I will be using statistics to measure the output of my players.


SETTING UP THE SAVE

Before jumping in on how you can assess your squad we need to first set up our save properly. The game uses two match engines, the quick match engine and the full match engine. The QME is used in view only leagues and the FME is used in playable leagues. So its important for consistency that you extract data from playable leagues only.

That's really the only requirement, if you want a stats driven game. 

ASSESSING YOUR SQUAD

When you are playing without attributes there are only a few pieces of information you can use to assess your squad

  1. Height
  2. Ass Man assessment of current ability
  3. Ass Man assessment of current ability in selected role
  4. Ass Man opinion of this players style
  5. Scouts opinion of this players main strength
  6. Scouts opinion of this players main weakness
  7. Average Rating
  8. Last 5 games
  9. Playing Time
  10. Appearances
  11. Game Win Ratio
  12. Team Conceded per 90
  13. Team Scored per 90
  14. Player of the Match
  15. Assists 
  16. Goals
  17. xG

I use these in a view like this to give me an instant understanding of my team. On my streams you probably have seen more information, but this is the very basic information I go for

Each player also has detailed coach reports that are very helpful. The coach report also contains pros and con and an assessment of his CA/PA.

cOACHREP.thumb.png.7fe7348df7e88eba0b14c71e4e2c49b6.png

When you start the game and if you play without attributes, your only source of information will be the data that comes from your staff, and you will need to depend on their assessments before match data starts coming in. There is plenty of information there already that can be a suitable starting point for anyone seeking to play without attributes.

Once the season is underway you will start collating the information within your views and you will start making assessments. To do that you will also need to look at the data hub because not all the data can be displayed in a view. 

 One of the most important I feel is possession lost and gained/90minutes. 

351436606_PossessionLostTeam.png.14c2987bc5e29111c055a78368dc1f67.png

This is the possession gained and lost per game, and is accessed through the scattergroups for team data. You can also access these for players via the players search options. Unfortunately it doesn’t come as a filter in views, which is a real bummer.

Another scattergroup which I like to refer to is the advanced goalkeeping numbers that measure how good your keeper is vs the rest of the league at expected goals prevented.

Datahubgk.thumb.png.c4ea27582956b2084d0bc6628bf6e9fd.png

Why have I listed these sources of information? The moneyball approach usually works as a great starting point before you dive deeper into the numbers.  These are all going to be my sources of information before I launch any further.

So I’ve set my expectations with the tactic, discussed why I will let the assistant manager and coaches play such a big part in influencing my decisions on who should play.(Because I am playing without attributes) Ultimately my decisions will rest on the little information I can gather from their coach and scout reports. At least until they have played around 5 games. That's when the fun starts. But before then I need to depend on the Assessment view I use game to game.
586929632_SquaDaSSESS.thumb.png.cd5991d3a62e903af23ab49341911ad6.png

Let me explain why I have chosen to display it like that.

Height - Who doesn't want to know height?
Scouts assessment of style - Quick way to have some kind of indication of where the attributes fall
Ass Man assessment of CA - This acts as a way for me to tell what his overall attribute level is. 
Ass Man assessment of this players CA in the selected role - this helps to guide me when I have opted to play someone in a role completely unsuited to him. (SI's algorithm isn't half bad)
Scouts opinions of pros and cons - Frankly speaking there are NO attributes, I do not some quick warning on the players weaknesses. I usually go to the coach reports to get more detail and then map out an appropriate training schedule. And yes I have a specific way of training and no I don't use anything but my One Training Schedule to Rule Them All. Its balanced and it works. I will cover training in more detail later. Or you can catch the youtube video which I will link here later, when its up, which it isn't.
Average Rating - Nuff said
Last 5 games - Haven't you heard of streaks, players hitting a vein of form. If a players last 5 games is > than Av Rating, he is on fire!
Playing Time - To prove to the whole world -- Look I ignored every players unhappiness levels, some I dumped into the reserves, we did it "live" see no unhappy people, well there is one, but he doesn't count. He failed to deliver consistently, his name is Tripledelli, only the viewers of my stream get the running joke.
Appearances 

And the rest is what I pay attention to, GWIN, TCON/90,TGLS/90, POM, Assists Goals.  This is the data I pay attention to when I am playing games.  I am looking to ascertain which players add more to my attacks. Some players have notoriously bad team game winning ratios, like Alessio Holwerda, when compared to Raffaele Celia. This is stuff I should be paying attention to, but I wasn't doing that. This lesson I learnt came from hindsight. In future I promise to pay attention to this page when I am playing the game.

2116960896_MBexportonly.thumb.png.5ffaf5ffeaa3714162de2d98d3e489b7.png

Now its time for the  the moneyball data view.  This is the view I use to export all my data to spreadsheet. I hate FM, its made me use an excel spreadsheet for a game again! This view probably has too much information and is still very much a work in progress. I have plans to use it to identify high performing wingers and inside forwards as well, but until I come up with a metric for them, I wont be sharing it just yet.

You might be wondering why do I have total crosses showing? Its not necessary right? Well the game does not differentiate between a cross from a corner and some set pieces which could be classed as corners. So whenever I see high key passes/90 there is a chance that he could be taking a lot of set pieces

In a later post I will dig deeper into the numbers. Its time my squad did an end of season analysis. That will be the focus of the next update and along with that,  training and my search for a striker who is versatile.
 

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Sorry to hijack this thread slightly, but the below image has made me wonder whether a skin exists that has background colours on the attributes, like below, but no attribute numbers displayed? (So, you'd see coloured rectangles next to the attribute, and know the attribute was in a certain range, but wouldn't know the exact attribute value.)
image.png.b999cdfb6b9d38fea6dc93eb3d8bb6f1.png

I think that would be a really interesting middle ground between having all of the attributes available, and having none at all.  I'd definitely be interested in playing in such a middle ground.

Edited by DementedHammer
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4 hours ago, DementedHammer said:

Sorry to hijack this thread slightly, but the below image has made me wonder whether a skin exists that has background colours on the attributes, like below, but no attribute numbers displayed? (So, you'd see coloured rectangles next to the attribute, and know the attribute was in a certain range, but wouldn't know the exact attribute value.)
image.png.b999cdfb6b9d38fea6dc93eb3d8bb6f1.png

I think that would be a really interesting middle ground between having all of the attributes available, and having none at all.  I'd definitely be interested in playing in such a middle ground.

There are more than one...for instance this is Flut skin with attributes hidden.

image.thumb.png.e0ef74c90596f0a360c0431891e63c5f.png

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Search for an INSIDE FORWARD/STRIKER
396720806_StrikerSearch.thumb.jpg.ac56e370e8a0f7fd82623927586fd623.jpg

Now we're on the hunt for more options upfront. So far this season we have done ok. I've had seasons where my striker banged in 100 goals a season, which frankly is nothing on Football Manager. Playing the game via stats makes it a bit more challenging and I do appreciate the effort it takes.

My spreadsheets are evolving, and the calculations keep changing. My metric for the IF includes me tracking like how many times they get fouled per 90mins. Its usually an indication that he has some skill on the ball, and is willing to take on players. Other metrics included in the IF metric include Dribbles/90, Non Pen Goals vs Non XG Goals.  Naturally I like my teams defending from the front, so I compiled all the defensive actions into its own metric. Once again mine could be different from others, but so far my conclusions from last season have borne themselves out.

As a team we concede far too many goals, we score a lot too, but its a rock and roll kind of football. Entertaining, but I want to control more games and have the option to dial it up. To do that we sometimes need to attack teams from wider positions and drag them out. The 4312 has been fantastic and so to has the Box system we are using, but I do so like Inside forwards attacking the centre with a blind run running through the middle. We have the players to pull it off. Last season we had an IF called Facchin who gave us that magic. He was on loan.

This season we need to strengthen our side so I filtered out any player with an average rating of less than 7, he must have played at least 5 games. He needed to have an XG/Goals ratio of 1, which basically means if he scored 1 goal he had an xG of 1. At least he meets expectations. We also wanted someone who could take on defences and find the cross/pass.

In my scoring system I have a
Striking Score which is basically the Non Pen Goal vs Non Pen XG
Creative Score which measures things like CHC C/90 vs Pass Completed /90
Defensive Score Defensive actions per 90

I also created a metric for IF and Wingers, different people may want different things so I doubt sharing this would be of any use.  I am still testing this but I reckon I have most of these spot on.

I have filtered everyone by my IF Metric. I really want someone who can give me options either out wide as an IF or play as another striker. 

The top 4 targets will be scouted
Zuluga appears to play more a supporting PF which explains his low scoring output
Zapata looks decent, but 20 appearances with that goal output probably another support player
Neither of them appear to be tackled as much as I'd like

Navarro and Leones look interesting, more appear to be better options for getting goals and they have a bit of creativity in them. Along with the two below them all 5 of the options after the first to create between 0.38-0.5 chances a game. Leones and Konta are interesting. Konta's scout report says that he sometimes doesn't go into challenge, which indicates low bravery. There is no mention of pace. He has consistency, strength, stamina and agility. His personality is sporting. There is a player further down the list my scouts are keen on Gabriel Pignataro. They have given him an A rating, I have made an offer for him. However I could cancel the offer.  

We need someone to start, not someone who could be ready in 2 seasons. Pignataro has the advantage of having Italian as a 2nd nationality. At 4 million he could be a second signing. 

We have already signed a central defender, unfortunately than was based on the previous spreadsheet where there was an error in one of the defensive actions metrics. It shouldn't be too big of a problem, since we really only signed him so we could send him out on loan again. Imagine his shock. Nevermind we have some sicilians who can convince him to take my offer.


 

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