A player in every half-space? 2-3-5 in possession.

[markoconnell]

I’m trying to execute the modern attacking movements from managers like Pep, Arteta. Mostly Arteta as I’ve been following his progress with the Arsenal. When in possession up in the opposition’s half, they try to have at least 5 up front, 2 in front of them to recycle possession and a 3 man weary of counter-attacks.

WB/IF/F9/Mez/IW would make sense in this case. WB and IW with width stretching the defense. IF, Mez in the half-spaces and the F9 up top.

In front of them, a DLP and the IWB with the two DC with HB in the middle splitting them.

Short passing would be the only Team Instruction on a Control Mentality.

Would this work? What other instructions or roles are needed to better enforce this style of play? 

[denen123]

29 minutes ago, markoconnell said:

I’m trying to execute the modern attacking movements from managers like Pep, Arteta. Mostly Arteta as I’ve been following his progress with the Arsenal. When in possession up in the opposition’s half, they try to have at least 5 up front, 2 in front of them to recycle possession and a 3 man weary of counter-attacks.

WB/IF/F9/Mez/IW would make sense in this case. WB and IW with width stretching the defense. IF, Mez in the half-spaces and the F9 up top.

In front of them, a DLP and the IWB with the two DC with HB in the middle splitting them.

Short passing would be the only Team Instruction on a Control Mentality.

Would this work? What other instructions or roles are needed to better enforce this style of play? 

Post a screenshot of your tactics/ideas.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, markoconnell said:

I’m trying to execute the modern attacking movements from managers like Pep, Arteta. Mostly Arteta as I’ve been following his progress with the Arsenal. When in possession up in the opposition’s half, they try to have at least 5 up front, 2 in front of them to recycle possession and a 3 man weary of counter-attacks.

WB/IF/F9/Mez/IW would make sense in this case. WB and IW with width stretching the defense. IF, Mez in the half-spaces and the F9 up top.

In front of them, a DLP and the IWB with the two DC with HB in the middle splitting them.

Short passing would be the only Team Instruction on a Control Mentality.

Would this work? What other instructions or roles are needed to better enforce this style of play? 

If you do a but of looking around a bit later date wise on here there was a very good thread that went quite heavily in to this very subject. I'll try look myself for it a bit later.

[themadsheep2001]

There's a lot of ways to do this. As said previously, please put some screenshots up it will be much easier for others to visualise

This is how I set up:

 

 

 

My 5 are the IF/MEZ/CF/MEZ/IW

Key to the 5 are the wide players keeping wide, so they both have stay wider and hold position. I don't want them attacking inside until they have the ball or the attack is very high up the pitch.

This leaves the half space free for the mezzalas. I don't feel that you must always use the Mezzala role, and indeed i frequently change my support role depending on what im trying to achieve and player availability, but if you want to play in the half space you need to give roles in those areas: moves into channels and roam from position.  Otherwise they won't play in the half space.

The Forward needs to be able to drop into space, drawing and occupying defenders. Most people use the False 9, personally I'm not a fan of how the role plays out, the complete forward on support seems to have the perfect movement for me so that is my go to.

The 3 are the IWS/DM/IWS

You can achieve the same with a more conservative choice in IWB, but I have very good ball players as full backs (my right back is actually usually Kimmich) so I use the support role. They step into and play in the space left by the CMs, sitting alongside the DM, or every so slight ahead. and their skill and role choice makes them dangerous threats in their own right (see Cancelo for real life example)

and the 2 are my ball playing centre backs

I give them Dribble More to bring the ball out of defence. You can also use the standard centreback role to see them move it simply to the line of three

 

[Fantasista10]

7 hours ago, markoconnell said:

I’m trying to execute the modern attacking movements from managers like Pep, Arteta. Mostly Arteta as I’ve been following his progress with the Arsenal. When in possession up in the opposition’s half, they try to have at least 5 up front, 2 in front of them to recycle possession and a 3 man weary of counter-attacks.

WB/IF/F9/Mez/IW would make sense in this case. WB and IW with width stretching the defense. IF, Mez in the half-spaces and the F9 up top.

In front of them, a DLP and the IWB with the two DC with HB in the middle splitting them.

Short passing would be the only Team Instruction on a Control Mentality.

Would this work? What other instructions or roles are needed to better enforce this style of play? 

I'm currently running something similar with my Sevilla side, with great results. I have a couple variations of the tactic, but this one with the HB is more along the lines of what you mentioned:

I tend to use this shape when facing a high press and/or top heavy system like a 4-2-3-1 or even a 4-4-2. This creates a 3 when playing out from the back as the HB drops in and CBs fan out (Salida Lavolpiana), and the left WB pushes on and stays wide (PI) whilst the width on the right is created by the IW (Stay Wide PI). 

The DLPs and IWBs create a double pivot in front of the back 3 whilst the WBs, IFa, DLFs, MEZa, IWs fill the five vertical lines of the field (Wing, Half Space, Centre, Half Space, Wing)

My second variation only has two changes, and I use this when I'm comfortable favourites or up against a similar shape like another 4-3-3. In this instance, I change the HB to a DLPd and the DLPs becomes a BBM which I instruct to Get Forward and Stay Wide as he helps overload that left half space and creates more of a 2-3-5/2-2-6 shape. 

The TIs used are the same in both systems - these are what I call the core Juego de Posicion instructions. The only changes I make in game here is to either Counter or Hold Shape, or change the Defensive Width (we started to concede a lot from crosses with Force Outside, and I found Force Inside really improved our press).

Lastly the striker role is absolutely crucial. The IFa will be the main scorer for sure (Ocampos has 22 goals 9 assists in February) but my striker also has to chip in on occasion. I tried using Munir as an F9 but didn't feel like he posed enough of a goalscoring or creative threat, but Vallejo has been superb as a DLFs. He drops really deep (without the PPM) and links up amazingly with the MEZ, IF, IW. He might not always get the goal or assist (or ratings) but his link up play is vital to the system functioning as I want. 

Hope this helps  

[Luizinho]

Fantasista10 - great point on the use of a HB. Makes a lot of sense and could definitely help me in my save when facing a high press, especially when away from home.

 

Sorry to hijack momentarily but it’s really interesting that both the recent posts talk about ineffectiveness of a F9. I’m finding Messi really poor for me in that role.

Is there any reason why the role appears to be struggling?

I was thinking using a Complete Forward or DLF (A) - but off out of the physical and aerial attributes needed for the CF role.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Luizinho

[Fantasista10]

20 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

Fantasista10 - great point on the use of a HB. Makes a lot of sense and could definitely help me in my save when face a high press away from him.

 

Sorry to hijack momentarily but it’s really interesting that both the recent posts talk about ineffectiveness of a F9. I’m finding Messi really poor for me in that role.

Is there any reason why the role appears to be struggling?

I was thinking using a Complete Forward or DLF (A) - but off out of the physical and aerial attributes needed for the CF role.

Yeah I’ve found that the F9 role is probably the least effective of all, and has been for many iterations of FM for me.
 

It could be something I’m doing wrong, but in the case of Munir, or Messi for yourself, they have the attributes to play that role, so I don’t understand how ratings can be so bad. 
 

Munir had a run of 5 games where his rating was either a 6.4 or 6.6 with 0 G/A. 
 

I understand it’s a demanding role but I’m not putting a donkey at F9, he’s a very technically gifted, capable forward. 

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Fantasista10 - great point on the use of a HB. Makes a lot of sense and could definitely help me in my save when facing a high press, especially when away from home.

 

Sorry to hijack momentarily but it’s really interesting that both the recent posts talk about ineffectiveness of a F9. I’m finding Messi really poor for me in that role.

Is there any reason why the role appears to be struggling?

I was thinking using a Complete Forward or DLF (A) - but off out of the physical and aerial attributes needed for the CF role.

I find the false 9 doesn't drop deep enough for me and then moves forward way too early in the build up. I can't say this is objectively the issue but based on watching and player results I get more build up, decoy play, assists and goals from the complete forward

[Jaye]

My hypothesis is the role, by default, does not offer enough movement to be continually found. It's hard-coded to Dribble More and Take More Risks, but not Roam From Position (which is a bit odd, given the whole purpose of the role) or Move Into Channels (which actually makes sense, because you don't want an F9 scurrying down the flanks to chase passes), like the Complete Forward is. I've made successful tactics with a DLF(A) getting 20-30 passes per game, which is about par with real life strikers, but the F9 tended to get 10 or less. In FM, it seems the F9 is more of a decoy role than anything. It'll make space by dropping deep, but won't always be in position to play the final pass or get into the area to shoot. If we want something similar to Messi during Pep-era Barcelona, we're actually looking at the Trequartista role with certain traits instead.

Anyway, I have my own 4-3-3 which turns into a 2-3-5. It's similar to the set-ups posted above, but I've gone for two conventional wingers on the flank and a CM(S) with Move Into Channels, Get Further Forward and Dribble More PIs. I probably could have used a second MEZ but I wanted someone who would occasionally drop and pop up in central areas, rather than another player standing in the half-space most of the time. Mine isn't quite so possession-focused but it averages about 400-500 passes per game, which is good enough for me. 

The 4-3-3 is the easiest shape to achieve this with because it already has five players (two CMS, two wingers, one striker) space out across the pitch. It then becomes a matter of getting them attacking the spaces you want, which you can do with roles/duties and PIs. I recommend the MEZ/Winger combo, as it's very effective at controlling the half-space and dragging players around. The Winger can pull a full-back out and open up for a MEZ(A) to attack, or the MEZ(A) standing near the edge of the box can attract a defender and make space for the winger to make an inside run. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Jaye

[Luizinho]

4 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I find the false 9 doesn't drop deep enough for me and then moves forward way too early in the build up. I can't say this is objectively the issue but based on watching and player results I get more build up, decoy play, assists and goals from the complete forward

Do you feel you need a big/physical striker like Haaland for a CF?

[themadsheep2001]

40 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

Do you feel you need a big/physical striker like Haaland for a CF?

Nope, I frequently use Rashford there. But also I'm using low crosses for cut backs, or I'd use whipped crosses to get across the defence

[denen123]

Has anyone tried a Pressing forward on defend duty? I find that it fulfills, to a large extent, what the F9 ought to be, with little of the play switching that the DLF does. Really underrated role, especially when you employ a technical player there.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

The False Nine drops plenty deep, especially if the player also has the Comes Deep to Get Ball. The real issue with the role, as I see it, is one of mentality. On balanced team mentality and lower, the role's individual mentality is cautious; on Positive and above, it only ever goes as high as balanced. What this means is the role is fairly risk averse in some senses; you'll rarely see mazy runs through the center despite the *Dribble More* instruction even on players with PPMs that further encourage the player. They'll fashion chances for others (both in terms of their movement and when on the ball) but rarely for themselves.

So whilst Messi re-popularised the False Nine in the modern game and thus the individual we associate most with the term, I get the impression the role in game is modeled on something else.

[Gegenklaus]

@themadsheep2001 Nice tactic and observations. As you said, the front five can be achieved in many ways. What is your take on Pep’s system he has employed more this season where he used a double pivot and a Cancelo that moves so high up that he becomes a sort of hybrid number 10 in the right half space? The system looks more like a strikerless 4-2-3-1 with a very fluid interchanging between Bernardo Silva and Cancelo where Silva often is deeper than Cancelo? 
 

Also their defensive shape looks more like 4-4-2 than the previous 4-1-4-1?

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

The False Nine drops plenty deep, especially if the player also has the Comes Deep to Get Ball. The real issue with the role, as I see it, is one of mentality. On balanced team mentality and lower, the role's individual mentality is cautious; on Positive and above, it only ever goes as high as balanced. What this means is the role is fairly risk averse in some senses; you'll rarely see mazy runs through the center despite the *Dribble More* instruction even on players with PPMs that further encourage the player. They'll fashion chances for others (both in terms of their movement and when on the ball) but rarely for themselves.

So whilst Messi re-popularised the False Nine in the modern game and thus the individual we associate most with the term, I get the impression the role in game is modeled on something else.

Exactly. That's why I believe that when you are trying to achieve something like Messi role, the best is probably Trequartista or DLF(A) with specific PIs to make it more creative. Or even CF(A)

[themadsheep2001]

8 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

@themadsheep2001 Nice tactic and observations. As you said, the front five can be achieved in many ways. What is your take on Pep’s system he has employed more this season where he used a double pivot and a Cancelo that moves so high up that he becomes a sort of hybrid number 10 in the right half space? The system looks more like a strikerless 4-2-3-1 with a very fluid interchanging between Bernardo Silva and Cancelo where Silva often is deeper than Cancelo? 
 

Also their defensive shape looks more like 4-4-2 than the previous 4-1-4-1?

Havent tried to create it, and probably won't as I'm into my United 2006-2009 replication when the final patch drops. 

Cancelo is a IWB/S or A for sure

@Rashidi might have some insights on this actually

[themadsheep2001]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Exactly. That's why I believe that when you are trying to achieve something like Messi role, the best is probably Trequartista or DLF(A) with specific PIs to make it more creative. Or even CF(A)

Neither the DLF/A or CF/A are classic Messi, too high up the pitch. The False 9's timing of movement is often off, goes high too quickly, but is also relatively passive at times, even when you load it with aggressive PIs

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Neither the DLF/A or CF/A are classic Messi, too high up the pitch. The False 9's timing of movement is often off, goes high too quickly, but is also relatively passive at times, even when you load it with aggressive PIs

I know they are not, As I said the best fit for Messi at his prime is Trequartista in the striker position. But I was just giving other examples of roles that could work to that effect as a more dynamic creative forward that creates for others while still scoring goals in a 4-3-3. Depending on the player you have. But the False Nine is definitely not it, the way it works in the game. Way too passive.

Personally my favourite is DLF with Attack duty. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Robson 07]

It's a great thread, always enjoy these types.  Keen to learn if anyone has done similar (235) out of formations other than 4141/433.  Particularly would like to know how others might go about it or even have a achieved it successfully from a 442 or 4231.

[themadsheep2001]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I know they are not, As I said the best fit for Messi at his prime is Trequartista in the striker position. But I was just giving other examples of roles that could work to that effect as a more dynamic creative forward that creates for others while still scoring goals in a 4-3-3. Depending on the player you have. But the False Nine is definitely not it, the way it works in the game. Way too passive.

Personally my favourite is DLF with Attack duty. 

The best False 9 the game has had is the Shadow Striker, after that I find is the CF/S or treq

[DNZ-8]

13 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

It's a great thread, always enjoy these types.  Keen to learn if anyone has done similar (235) out of formations other than 4141/433.  Particularly would like to know how others might go about it or even have a achieved it successfully from a 442 or 4231.

@Robson 07 I used to play a 4-2-3-1 which, in my opinion, was pretty good in transitioning to a 2-3-5 attacking all the vertical channels. I achieved that by giving my AM a playmaker role (like an AP-s) which would drop deep and form the trio in midfield with an IWB and and DLP. The 5 roles occupying the vertical channels were W-MEZ-F9-IW-WB.

So the 2-3-5 would be:

W-MEZ-F9-IW-WB

IWB-AP-DPL

CD-CD

This used to work well if combined with a slow build-up that was giving players the time to position themselves into the right channels. 

Now I am still going after a 2-3-5 but with a different starting shape - M City stile (previous years) - with two IWBs and two Ws wide and placed in the midfield strata. So basically is a 4-1-4-1 instead of a 4-3-3.  I like it a lot because it forms a more "stable" 2-3-5.

I am intrigued by the idea of starting from a 442, I never tried but I think we could try some experiments, maybe with a striker-less 442, with two AM going into the half channels and a CM that attacks the box centrally from deep... ? In theory it might be achievable... 

[Bahamontes]

On 17/02/2021 at 13:22, themadsheep2001 said:

Love your approach madsheep. In particular the wider IF and IW to create width. Also the short pass/pass into space combo sounds quite worthwhile. Need to check it out. With extremely urgent pressing, do you see your United side loosing shape? Or is it kind of a risk reward situation? I always shy ayway from "extremely urgent" in terms of pressing so I'm quite curious.

[Robson 07]

On 19/02/2021 at 14:09, DNZ-8 said:

 I used to play a 4-2-3-1 which, in my opinion, was pretty good in transitioning to a 2-3-5 attacking all the vertical channels. I achieved that by giving my AM a playmaker role (like an AP-s) which would drop deep and form the trio in midfield with an IWB and and DLP. The 5 roles occupying the vertical channels were W-MEZ-F9-IW-WB.

With the 4231 I was thinking you may have to offset the positions slightly.  Makes it slightly asymmetrical in appearance but once you have done that it opens more possibilities.  I'm experimenting with something and may post it later if it delivers results.

[DNZ-8]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

With the 4231 I was thinking you may have to offset the positions slightly.  Makes it slightly asymmetrical in appearance but once you have done that it opens more possibilities.  I'm experimenting with something and may post it later if it delivers results.

Good! Let me know how it goes. 

[denen123]

On 19/02/2021 at 01:34, Robson 07 said:

It's a great thread, always enjoy these types.  Keen to learn if anyone has done similar (235) out of formations other than 4141/433.  Particularly would like to know how others might go about it or even have a achieved it successfully from a 442 or 4231.

Yes.

I done one with a 4231

ST=PF-su

AML=IWS-su

AMR=IF-su(but a right footed player plays it, to get the pseudo-winger role)

AMC = Treq 

LCM= Dlpd

RCM=BWM-su

LB=CWB-a

LCB=CD       

RCD=BPD

RB=IWB-de

GK = SK-de

[Robson 07]

So I have tried the 4231 this way with a simple redistribution of midfield positions.  2 or 3 roles and duties may be improved though so I'm open to suggestions:-

The Two

CD x 2

The Three

Inverted wing backs and the DLP shifted into the centre

The Five

Mez breaks fwd, wingers x 2, AMC shifted to the right and CF(s)

 

[DNZ-8]

@Robson 07 This looks interesting. Did you test it out already? By looking at it is not clear to me what your plan for scoring goals is.  Who are supposed to be your main goal scorers attacking the box?  Shouldn’t you add at least one attacking duty? It seems to me that you can turn this tactic in many ways, depending on the players you have available. My instinct would be to give an attacking duty to the mezzala and to the AM and change the forward in a DLF. I guess the Ws stay wide, holding position (Pep’s style)
Anyway, that’s just an idea, maybe you are playing this system as it is and it’s going great without any change. 
 

[Robson 07]

@DNZ-8 I've tested it some but you're right it wasn't really my intention to create something that is very fluid due to the number of supports.  I have both my other tactical slots trying similar-ish 235 hybrids and one of those has both the wide players as Raumdeuters.  At the moment that's holding my interest and I'm wondering whther that role could work its way into this tactic somehow.  To your suggestion, I have been nervous of trying an attack duty on one of the two central midfield roles even if it is of the attacking gang of five.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Robson 07

[CRN711]

That's a fantastic thread. 

I mixed up some of the ideas here and it turned out pretty well! The 10-0 win against Besiktas was incredible. Not only for the score but the way we played was some of the best football I have seen on FM. I have attached a pkm of the game for anyone willing to see it. 

 

Real Sociedad - Beşiktaş.pkm

[KCHDD]

Been lurking on this thread for a while, do you guys find the IWB(s) too aggressive at times? From my experience they sometimes go really high and overlap the forwards in the final stages of play. I have been thinking about dropping it to defend duty but would that make the player devoid of any movement?

[DNZ-8]

In my experience yes. I had the same issue you have and tried with the IWB in defend duty but then they went to the other extreme, very static. As usual everything is relative, in some tactics it may work very well, because two IWB in defend could be great in protecting a regista for example and help out with recycling the ball....

[Russian-guy]

Отличная тема. Я использую 2-3-5, чтобы создать ситуации 1vs 1 для моих вингеров. Я использую роль широкого полузащитника, потому что у вингера есть личная инструкция - бегать широко с мячом, по моим наблюдениям это иногда мешает. IW также имеет инструкцию, которую нельзя отключить - вырезать внутри с помощью шарика. Я хочу, чтобы игрок на этой позиции сам принял решение.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Russian-guy

[Guv'nor]

3 hours ago, Russian-guy said:

Отличная тема. Я использую 2-3-5, чтобы создать ситуации 1vs 1 для моих вингеров.

Yes...

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, Russian-guy said:

Отличная тема. Я использую 2-3-5, чтобы создать ситуации 1vs 1 для моих вингеров. Я использую роль широкого полузащитника, потому что у вингера есть личная инструкция - бегать широко с мячом, по моим наблюдениям это иногда мешает. IW также имеет инструкцию, которую нельзя отключить - вырезать внутри с помощью шарика. Я хочу, чтобы игрок на этой позиции сам принял решение.

 

 

 

 

 

Отличная тактика! Тоже мне нравиться твоя skin. Какая ето?

Edited March 28, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Russian-guy]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Отличная тактика! Тоже мне нравиться твоя skin. Какая кто?

It's fm 20, heffem skin

[1980haighy]

On 22/02/2021 at 18:01, CRN711 said:

That's a fantastic thread. 

I mixed up some of the ideas here and it turned out pretty well! The 10-0 win against Besiktas was incredible. Not only for the score but the way we played was some of the best football I have seen on FM. I have attached a pkm of the game for anyone willing to see it. 

 

Real Sociedad - Beşiktaş.pkm 179.66 kB · 29 downloads

Hi mate, any chance u could upload the tactic

[Ripamon]

On 17/02/2021 at 13:22, themadsheep2001 said:

There's a lot of ways to do this. As said previously, please put some screenshots up it will be much easier for others to visualise

This is how I set up:

 

 

 

My 5 are the IF/MEZ/CF/MEZ/IW

Key to the 5 are the wide players keeping wide, so they both have stay wider and hold position. I don't want them attacking inside until they have the ball or the attack is very high up the pitch.

This leaves the half space free for the mezzalas. I don't feel that you must always use the Mezzala role, and indeed i frequently change my support role depending on what im trying to achieve and player availability, but if you want to play in the half space you need to give roles in those areas: moves into channels and roam from position.  Otherwise they won't play in the half space.

The Forward needs to be able to drop into space, drawing and occupying defenders. Most people use the False 9, personally I'm not a fan of how the role plays out, the complete forward on support seems to have the perfect movement for me so that is my go to.

The 3 are the IWS/DM/IWS

You can achieve the same with a more conservative choice in IWB, but I have very good ball players as full backs (my right back is actually usually Kimmich) so I use the support role. They step into and play in the space left by the CMs, sitting alongside the DM, or every so slight ahead. and their skill and role choice makes them dangerous threats in their own right (see Cancelo for real life example)

and the 2 are my ball playing centre backs

I give them Dribble More to bring the ball out of defence. You can also use the standard centreback role to see them move it simply to the line of three

 

Very nice tactic 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Ripamon