4-4-2 Modern - Control and Attack Space

[radetzky]

4 ore fa, kr10 ha scritto:

@thegoon65

Ok so I played around with a few settings and roles. I have come up with this - a few tweaks from the original, mostly in terms of team instructions.

DLF(s) is back in for link up play (as according to the guide the PF plays like an AF), and there are some changes in TIs:

- Pass shorter, to prevent unnecessary turnover of possession

- Much higher defensive line, standard LOE & defend narrower - to achieve horizontal and vertical compactness

- Removed counter-press, added counter (I think both these are situational, but I would like counter to be ticked most games)

- Removed get stuck in etc.

Updated tactic shown below. I'm going to be taking a break for the game for a while, but I hope this works for you:

 

interesting,, will you post this version or it's already avaialble in the opening post?

[kr10]

32 minutes ago, radetzky said:

interesting,, will you post this version or it's already avaialble in the opening post?

@thegoon65 @radetzky I have updated the opening post (download link and screenshot) with the revised tactic. It also has set pieces. 

I won't be making any more changes so you can go ahead and use that.  I hid all the unnecessary 4411 posts. 

[radetzky]

1 ora fa, kr10 ha scritto:

@thegoon65 @radetzky I have updated the opening post (download link and screenshot) with the revised tactic. It also has set pieces. 

I won't be making any more changes so you can go ahead and use that.  I hid all the unnecessary 4411 posts. 

Many thanks.

So 4411 is no more a reliable option?

[kr10]

8 hours ago, radetzky said:

Many thanks.

So 4411 is no more a reliable option?

I only used it for a couple of days and didn’t like how it played. The 442 I have used for over 30 seasons, so it is far more tried and tested 

[thegoon65]

A great 2nd season ended with me finishing 5th predicted 19th so very happy.

Squad wise I need major cover and with £50m and a wage budget of £250k pw I think I can buy the needed players. I do need a top striker DLFs so think a bulk spent on him, other areas need are

LBs, CDd, MCs and MCd, RWwp and a SC. Will post up players I bring in. With Europa league games reckon I will need at least 7/8 new players and advance 2 of my youth players to the 1st team squad.

League Table and cups. Overall over achieved in all comps 

[kr10]

42 minutes ago, thegoon65 said:

A great 2nd season ended with me finishing 5th predicted 19th so very happy.

Squad wise I need major cover and with £50m and a wage budget of £250k pw I think I can buy the needed players. I do need a top striker DLFs so think a bulk spent on him, other areas need are

LBs, CDd, MCs and MCd, RWwp and a SC. Will post up players I bring in. With Europa league games reckon I will need at least 7/8 new players and advance 2 of my youth players to the 1st team squad.

League Table and cups. Overall over achieved in all comps 

Wow missed out on CL by just a point! Anyway, excellent season all things considered. 

 Which version of the tactic did you use btw? 

[thegoon65]

Used the original 442 and games against the top 6 used the slightly altered 442.

I think I've stumbled upon something and totally by accident on the original 442 version I tried a PFa with a poacher on the last 5 games. It seemed to produce good results. The player I have as PFa lacks some credentials for the role so my summer spend has been on a real top PFa. 

I noticed the PFa drops deep like the DLFs but is more aggressive at winning the ball back, this suits the poacher perfect who picks up the panicked back passes or balls played by the PFa. 

This change still gives me 50%+ possession, and hasn't distracted from the really entertaining football. Now with added cover at the back I should be anle to reduce the goals conceded. 

Still looking for other cover players so once the window closes will post up all the ins and outs. 

[Icetuga]

This is an highly underrated tactic in my opinion!

The best word to describe it would be solid, the original tactic works very good and produce a very attractive football.

But it needs very specific role players to fully shine, if you don´t have a creative player with good pass skills to play on the right in your squad for example.

In my specific save i was playing there was just one player in the squad for that position, but the tactic impressed me so much that i decided to find a solution for my squad situation.

This tactic surely inspired me a lot to already build 3 different sytems out of the same principles, all to fit my needs with my squad i changed the creative outlet more to the center roles. It changed the way i build my systems now when i choose roles and formation!

Now i look into it with different eyes and try to find a balance between the formation, who is holding and who is the runner and so on like passing options. I never detailed it so much looking it from every position if there are the right options.

So @kr10 your original tactic great but i have to thank you more for the inspiration it gave me to build some masterpieces!  

[kr10]

7 hours ago, thegoon65 said:

Used the original 442 and games against the top 6 used the slightly altered 442.

I think I've stumbled upon something and totally by accident on the original 442 version I tried a PFa with a poacher on the last 5 games. It seemed to produce good results. The player I have as PFa lacks some credentials for the role so my summer spend has been on a real top PFa. 

I noticed the PFa drops deep like the DLFs but is more aggressive at winning the ball back, this suits the poacher perfect who picks up the panicked back passes or balls played by the PFa. 

This change still gives me 50%+ possession, and hasn't distracted from the really entertaining football. Now with added cover at the back I should be anle to reduce the goals conceded. 

Still looking for other cover players so once the window closes will post up all the ins and outs. 

Interesting regarding the PFa dropping back it - let me know how it works after bringing the right players in and testing it for a few more games. 

[kr10]

5 hours ago, Icetuga said:

This is an highly underrated tactic in my opinion!

The best word to describe it would be solid, the original tactic works very good and produce a very attractive football.

But it needs very specific role players to fully shine, if you don´t have a creative player with good pass skills to play on the right in your squad for example.

In my specific save i was playing there was just one player in the squad for that position, but the tactic impressed me so much that i decided to find a solution for my squad situation.

This tactic surely inspired me a lot to already build 3 different sytems out of the same principles, all to fit my needs with my squad i changed the creative outlet more to the center roles. It changed the way i build my systems now when i choose roles and formation!

Now i look into it with different eyes and try to find a balance between the formation, who is holding and who is the runner and so on like passing options. I never detailed it so much looking it from every position if there are the right options.

So @kr10 your original tactic great but i have to thank you more for the inspiration it gave me to build some masterpieces!  

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to go through the tactic and the writeup.

Very happy to hear that this has been helpful for you - My ideal intention was always to not just provide a tactic for people to try, but to provide some basic principles which can be used to build any tactic, which you have done - great work. 

Always happy to take a look at one of your tactics if you want a fresh pair of eyes to look at them, you can just post it here if it would be helpful. 

[sven78]

I stumbled across this tactic with my current game as Peterborough. I was set-up as a 442 but my formation just hit a brick wall. I got promoted first season from League 1 in 2nd, missed playoffs by 2 points in 2nd season despite being in play-offs 90% of the season but 3rd season I just hit a wall....languishing in 11th at xmas.

I downloaded this as I felt I had the key players i.e left footed right winger (Marian Schved - Celtic) and managed to get a quality striker on loan (Sergio Camello). I went on a fantastic run for the last 16 games, only losing twice and managed to scrape into the play-offs which I then knocked out Huddersfield and banged Derby @ Wembley 3-0 to get to the promised land....although my late run was impressive it was not spectacular, I never scored more than 2 goals in any game other than the final.

I had previously sold Harrison Burrows for £15m to Wolves and then due to my board intervening in the January and selling Ivan Toney for £15m to Derby and then doing the same again for £11.25m for Louis Reed to AIK I actually had a healthy budget for the premier league, Scouted players to death and have upgraded all over my team with what appear to be quality players however I am unfortunately not having the results of others, I am getting smashed to pieces every week...early promise with some good performances and tight losses have now made way for just getting humped weekly, just got obliterated off League 1 Coventry in 3rd round of the FA Cup with a full team....its now January, I have 9 points with a -20 goal difference. 

I knew it would be a struggle, wasn't expecting to be top 6 but the performances of the team are awful, seem to get plenty possession but create nothing barely 6 attempts a match and my striker (Camello) back on loan who got 11 in 15 in championship just can't score.

Any help would be appreciated!!

Just to confirm this is not a whinge at your tactic, its up to myself to try and sort it but just wondered if you had encountered this in any of your testing etc. 

[kr10]

1 hour ago, sven78 said:

I stumbled across this tactic with my current game as Peterborough. I was set-up as a 442 but my formation just hit a brick wall. I got promoted first season from League 1 in 2nd, missed playoffs by 2 points in 2nd season despite being in play-offs 90% of the season but 3rd season I just hit a wall....languishing in 11th at xmas.

I downloaded this as I felt I had the key players i.e left footed right winger (Marian Schved - Celtic) and managed to get a quality striker on loan (Sergio Camello). I went on a fantastic run for the last 16 games, only losing twice and managed to scrape into the play-offs which I then knocked out Huddersfield and banged Derby @ Wembley 3-0 to get to the promised land....although my late run was impressive it was not spectacular, I never scored more than 2 goals in any game other than the final.

I had previously sold Harrison Burrows for £15m to Wolves and then due to my board intervening in the January and selling Ivan Toney for £15m to Derby and then doing the same again for £11.25m for Louis Reed to AIK I actually had a healthy budget for the premier league, Scouted players to death and have upgraded all over my team with what appear to be quality players however I am unfortunately not having the results of others, I am getting smashed to pieces every week...early promise with some good performances and tight losses have now made way for just getting humped weekly, just got obliterated off League 1 Coventry in 3rd round of the FA Cup with a full team....its now January, I have 9 points with a -20 goal difference. 

I knew it would be a struggle, wasn't expecting to be top 6 but the performances of the team are awful, seem to get plenty possession but create nothing barely 6 attempts a match and my striker (Camello) back on loan who got 11 in 15 in championship just can't score.

Any help would be appreciated!!

Just to confirm this is not a whinge at your tactic, its up to myself to try and sort it but just wondered if you had encountered this in any of your testing etc. 

Thanks for the detailed write up.
 

1. Could you post a SS of your tactic along with the footedness of each player? 
 

2. It looks like you did a large overhaul of your side in a small space of time - from my experience this typically leads to poor results as team cohesion takes a big hit. In addition, this also affects the partnerships between CBs, CMs, strikers, etc. 

3. Another user (above) finished in the top 5 or 6 using Ipswich in the premier league after being promoted, so I don’t think it is primary tactic related. However, you can make a few tweaks based on your team: 

- move defensive line from much higher to higher or standard 

- change full backs to support and defend respectively 

- try 2 pressing forwards up front, one support one attack

- if you are seeing plenty of possession but not enough chances, you can try removing shorter passing as well 

In addition, I would focus a lot on holding team talks and keeping morale up. Nipping these losing streaks in the bud is going to be critical for you going forward. 

overall, what kind of problems are you seeing in attack and events? What kind of goals are you conceding? This tactic does work well but it certainly isn’t meant to be an exploit tactic, so you’ll have to work to fine tune it for your players and relative level. @thegoon65 can pitch in as well as he has done a similar LLM save extensively using this tactic in both FM 19 and 20. 

[thegoon65]

12 hours ago, sven78 said:

I stumbled across this tactic with my current game as Peterborough. I was set-up as a 442 but my formation just hit a brick wall. I got promoted first season from League 1 in 2nd, missed playoffs by 2 points in 2nd season despite being in play-offs 90% of the season but 3rd season I just hit a wall....languishing in 11th at xmas.

I downloaded this as I felt I had the key players i.e left footed right winger (Marian Schved - Celtic) and managed to get a quality striker on loan (Sergio Camello). I went on a fantastic run for the last 16 games, only losing twice and managed to scrape into the play-offs which I then knocked out Huddersfield and banged Derby @ Wembley 3-0 to get to the promised land....although my late run was impressive it was not spectacular, I never scored more than 2 goals in any game other than the final.

I had previously sold Harrison Burrows for £15m to Wolves and then due to my board intervening in the January and selling Ivan Toney for £15m to Derby and then doing the same again for £11.25m for Louis Reed to AIK I actually had a healthy budget for the premier league, Scouted players to death and have upgraded all over my team with what appear to be quality players however I am unfortunately not having the results of others, I am getting smashed to pieces every week...early promise with some good performances and tight losses have now made way for just getting humped weekly, just got obliterated off League 1 Coventry in 3rd round of the FA Cup with a full team....its now January, I have 9 points with a -20 goal difference. 

I knew it would be a struggle, wasn't expecting to be top 6 but the performances of the team are awful, seem to get plenty possession but create nothing barely 6 attempts a match and my striker (Camello) back on loan who got 11 in 15 in championship just can't score.

Any help would be appreciated!!

Just to confirm this is not a whinge at your tactic, its up to myself to try and sort it but just wondered if you had encountered this in any of your testing etc. 

I still have problems with the big 6, once in the prem its a very easy mistake to bulk buy better players. Look at teams in real life they make maybe 2 or 3 buys. I've found fm the same, last summer I bought in 4 players to strengthen my squad. This had an effect on cohesion but only minimal and once this clicked games beame easier. 

This is a real non cheat tactic and you wont win every game 4 or 5 nil. Did you play all your new signings during pre season? Did you start them all from the first game? Can they all speak English? Do you have players that dislike big matches, have low Determination, low Bravery? Watch your Reputation, in my first season in the prem I was ranked lower than most championship teams so found a lot of games very tough. These might sound odd but do play a part in how games pan out.

Hope these help you, it can be frustrating but stick with it, I'm loving the realism of the tactic and the league. 

[sven78]

13 hours ago, kr10 said:

Thanks for the detailed write up.
 

1. Could you post a SS of your tactic along with the footedness of each player? 
 

2. It looks like you did a large overhaul of your side in a small space of time - from my experience this typically leads to poor results as team cohesion takes a big hit. In addition, this also affects the partnerships between CBs, CMs, strikers, etc. 

3. Another user (above) finished in the top 5 or 6 using Ipswich in the premier league after being promoted, so I don’t think it is primary tactic related. However, you can make a few tweaks based on your team: 

- move defensive line from much higher to higher or standard 

- change full backs to support and defend respectively 

- try 2 pressing forwards up front, one support one attack

- if you are seeing plenty of possession but not enough chances, you can try removing shorter passing as well 

In addition, I would focus a lot on holding team talks and keeping morale up. Nipping these losing streaks in the bud is going to be critical for you going forward. 

overall, what kind of problems are you seeing in attack and events? What kind of goals are you conceding? This tactic does work well but it certainly isn’t meant to be an exploit tactic, so you’ll have to work to fine tune it for your players and relative level. @thegoon65 can pitch in as well as he has done a similar LLM save extensively using this tactic in both FM 19 and 20. 

So the above I what I perceive to be my best starting XI

Footedness as follows:

Vagnoman (RB) - Right

Iago (LB) Left

Bajrami (CBl) Left

Mai (CBr) Right

Shved (WP) Left

Jean Lucas (CMr) Right

Traore (CMl) Left

Maouasa (W) Left

Gouiri (DLF) Right

Camello (AP) Right

Below is my run of results. As you can see its not great. 

Team cohesion is definitely a factor. I chose to sell Burrows for £15m in Championship season to try and raise funds as we had a negative bank balance. This generated some funds to improve the squad and when I adjusted the tactic around January it did transform run of poor results but at the same time my board, due to the finances involved sold 2 of the better players so in reality I got promoted into premier league with the loss of my most prolific striker and by far my best midfielder. 

For reference players from promotion team - Branescu / Mai / Bajrami / Traore / Shved / Camello (Loan)

New players - Vagnoman / Iago / Jean Lucas / Maouassa / Gouiri

From a team point of view we just get totally overrun by all teams. Create very little. Possession stats at the end show most games I have the majority but from highlight point of view very few chances are shown.

I am going to give those tweaks ago and see what impact.

Fortunately its 2022 (World Cup in Nov) so I have only played 16 matches. Teams in 13th and below only 6 points above me.

Any other assistance from the attached would be appreciated

[sven78]

2 hours ago, thegoon65 said:

I still have problems with the big 6, once in the prem its a very easy mistake to bulk buy better players. Look at teams in real life they make maybe 2 or 3 buys. I've found fm the same, last summer I bought in 4 players to strengthen my squad. This had an effect on cohesion but only minimal and once this clicked games beame easier. 

This is a real non cheat tactic and you wont win every game 4 or 5 nil. Did you play all your new signings during pre season? Did you start them all from the first game? Can they all speak English? Do you have players that dislike big matches, have low Determination, low Bravery? Watch your Reputation, in my first season in the prem I was ranked lower than most championship teams so found a lot of games very tough. These might sound odd but do play a part in how games pan out.

Hope these help you, it can be frustrating but stick with it, I'm loving the realism of the tactic and the league. 

Definitely. I liked the detail of the tactic as it slightly changed the way my original one was set-up. I knew it wasn't a hack type tactic that would be plug and play but the results and performances with conceivably significantly better players are puzzling me. Granted opposition are far superior but my demolition from league 1 Coventry  set the alarm bells ringing.

Morale is definitely declining, without doubt this is an issue. With regards the new signings, all were integrated in the pre-season and you can see above the results were positive however hit the league and it just started unravelling. 

Appreciate the input.

[kr10]

29 minutes ago, sven78 said:

So the above I what I perceive to be my best starting XI

Footedness as follows:

Vagnoman (RB) - Right

Iago (LB) Left

Bajrami (CBl) Left

Mai (CBr) Right

Shved (WP) Left

Jean Lucas (CMr) Right

Traore (CMl) Left

Maouasa (W) Left

Gouiri (DLF) Right

Camello (AP) Right

Below is my run of results. As you can see its not great. 

Team cohesion is definitely a factor. I chose to sell Burrows for £15m in Championship season to try and raise funds as we had a negative bank balance. This generated some funds to improve the squad and when I adjusted the tactic around January it did transform run of poor results but at the same time my board, due to the finances involved sold 2 of the better players so in reality I got promoted into premier league with the loss of my most prolific striker and by far my best midfielder. 

For reference players from promotion team - Branescu / Mai / Bajrami / Traore / Shved / Camello (Loan)

New players - Vagnoman / Iago / Jean Lucas / Maouassa / Gouiri

From a team point of view we just get totally overrun by all teams. Create very little. Possession stats at the end show most games I have the majority but from highlight point of view very few chances are shown.

I am going to give those tweaks ago and see what impact.

Fortunately its 2022 (World Cup in Nov) so I have only played 16 matches. Teams in 13th and below only 6 points above me.

Any other assistance from the attached would be appreciated

Thanks for posting. My observations and recommendations are as following:

1. As you can see, there are barely any partnerships in the team - for strikers, CMs, CBs, winger/fullback, etc. This is undoubtedly affecting the performance of your team, both with and without the ball.

The biggest issue here is that without a green line between the CBs, your offside trap isn't going to be nearly as effective, so playing such a high line is going to be problematic.

Solution: Move D line back to standard, change nothing else

2. To give yourself more defensive bite, change the DLF to PF, but make sure the player here has determination, workrate, and team work. He should help a lot with putting pressure on opposition DM and CMs, allowing your 2 CMs to stay in position. For now, forget about goal scoring from this position and try to put a PF with the attributes above.

3. I would keep the RB as FB(a), but change the LB to FB(d). I have reconsidered and I think the attacking fullback is key to ensure space for the WP.

4. If you haven't hold a team meeting asap, before a relatively easy game at home to try and get the win, and build from there. Try not to get frustrated and yell at your guys when they are losing (easier said than done).

5. Start playing guys based on their recent form and morale for now - i've found that players with poor form, particularly strikers, are completely useless regardless of their stats.

6. Is your team able to play out of defense? If you don't have the right defenders, remove this and just distribute to fullbacks - the MR/ML usually have a lot of space against all 433/4231 versions. 

7. Any PPMs worth noting? For example, likes to bear offside trap for support striker, comes deep to get ball for AF, or gets forward when possible for any of the mids (except winger) - all these must be avoided at all costs. 

That's all I got for now - this season is all about survival, try to build on this base for next year - once team cohesion goes up and partnerships form, you'll see a big improvement in performances.

Finally, if there are 2 positions you really want to focus on going forward, I always prioritize the Winger, WP, and AF  (a tall one who can head) - these tend to make the biggest impact on results. 

[sven78]

9 minutes ago, kr10 said:

Thanks for posting. My observations and recommendations are as following:

1. As you can see, there are barely any partnerships in the team - for strikers, CMs, CBs, winger/fullback, etc. This is undoubtedly affecting the performance of your team, both with and without the ball.

The biggest issue here is that without a green line between the CBs, your offside trap isn't going to be nearly as effective, so playing such a high line is going to be problematic.

Solution: Move D line back to standard, change nothing else

2. To give yourself more defensive bite, change the DLF to PF, but make sure the player here has determination, workrate, and team work. He should help a lot with putting pressure on opposition DM and CMs, allowing your 2 CMs to stay in position. For now, forget about goal scoring from this position and try to put a PF with the attributes above.

3. I would keep the RB as FB(a), but change the LB to FB(d). I have reconsidered and I think the attacking fullback is key to ensure space for the WP.

4. If you haven't hold a team meeting asap, before a relatively easy game at home to try and get the win, and build from there. Try not to get frustrated and yell at your guys when they are losing (easier said than done).

5. Start playing guys based on their recent form and morale for now - i've found that players with poor form, particularly strikers, are completely useless regardless of their stats.

6. Is your team able to play out of defense? If you don't have the right defenders, remove this and just distribute to fullbacks - the MR/ML usually have a lot of space against all 433/4231 versions. 

7. Any PPMs worth noting? For example, likes to bear offside trap for support striker, comes deep to get ball for AF, or gets forward when possible for any of the mids (except winger) - all these must be avoided at all costs. 

That's all I got for now - this season is all about survival, try to build on this base for next year - once team cohesion goes up and partnerships form, you'll see a big improvement in performances.

Finally, if there are 2 positions you really want to focus on going forward, I always prioritize the Winger, WP, and AF  (a tall one who can head) - these tend to make the biggest impact on results. 

I will implement a few of the tweaks and let you know the outcomes. My next 4 games are all away from home haha so not hoping for much.

Definate survival season but that is all I was expecting, just wasn't expecting performances to be as consistently poor as they have been.

I am hugely concerned about my W. No where near good enough. Looked like he ticked all the boxes but that hasn't translated into performances. I actually got my previosu wonderkid (Harrison Burrows) back on loan on deadline day but I got slightly fm'd and he got injured immediately so his impact has been minimal. He is back fit again now so hoping I get some impact from that.

Both CM's are (DM / MC), do you think this has an impact upon creativity. Both have good attacking stats but not sure if a AMC in the support role would have more impact.

[kr10]

33 minutes ago, sven78 said:

I will implement a few of the tweaks and let you know the outcomes. My next 4 games are all away from home haha so not hoping for much.

Definate survival season but that is all I was expecting, just wasn't expecting performances to be as consistently poor as they have been.

I am hugely concerned about my W. No where near good enough. Looked like he ticked all the boxes but that hasn't translated into performances. I actually got my previosu wonderkid (Harrison Burrows) back on loan on deadline day but I got slightly fm'd and he got injured immediately so his impact has been minimal. He is back fit again now so hoping I get some impact from that.

Both CM's are (DM / MC), do you think this has an impact upon creativity. Both have good attacking stats but not sure if a AMC in the support role would have more impact.

For me the winger (attack) almost always has the highest rating on the team, regardless of the level. Goals and assists. 

Do you have a tall AF who can head? 

Another option to experiment with is to remove short passing. I actually added short passing in recently as I wasn't keeping enough possession vs 4231 away from home, too many sloppy passes. Experiment with this as well, perhaps for your standard of players a slightly more direct passing approach might work better. 

[sven78]

Really appreciate the suggestions. I knew the 4 away games in a row was going to be difficult. Implemented the adjustment to defensive line and slight adjustment on full backs and have adjusted the 2 forwards....results awful, performances improving:

Fulham away - Lost 2-1 (fulham scored 90 & 90+1)

Brentford away - Lost 1-0 (had so man chances to win it was riduculous but forwards morale low. Brentford scored 85th min)

Newcastle away - Lost 3-1 (got battered)

Tottenham away - Lost 2-0 (decent preformance, at 1-0 I was creating alot of chances, scored 2nd from a breakaway from my corner).

This season is now a right off, definate relegation but hoping I keep my job. To regroup again and learn the lessons of this season. Just going to use the remaining matches to try some adjustments based on the above to get it working.

I don't have a tall AF, this is defo my problem. Both relatively small, quick players.

I feel like I am being kicked at every turn, Fulham game sums up the season. I now have all 4 CM's injured also. Got a couple of home games to come but squad is depleted.

[kr10]

53 minutes ago, sven78 said:

Really appreciate the suggestions. I knew the 4 away games in a row was going to be difficult. Implemented the adjustment to defensive line and slight adjustment on full backs and have adjusted the 2 forwards....results awful, performances improving:

Fulham away - Lost 2-1 (fulham scored 90 & 90+1)

Brentford away - Lost 1-0 (had so man chances to win it was riduculous but forwards morale low. Brentford scored 85th min)

Newcastle away - Lost 3-1 (got battered)

Tottenham away - Lost 2-0 (decent preformance, at 1-0 I was creating alot of chances, scored 2nd from a breakaway from my corner).

This season is now a right off, definate relegation but hoping I keep my job. To regroup again and learn the lessons of this season. Just going to use the remaining matches to try some adjustments based on the above to get it working.

I don't have a tall AF, this is defo my problem. Both relatively small, quick players.

I feel like I am being kicked at every turn, Fulham game sums up the season. I now have all 4 CM's injured also. Got a couple of home games to come but squad is depleted.

Super frustrating. FM does this to you sometimes. If you win that Fulham game 1-0, morale goes up, and everything falls into place. Tough luck but hang in there, it’ll be more rewarding once you do reach the top. 
 

height on the AF is massive, critical, paramount - I can’t stress enough how much this helps. Find someone with 15+ height and 14+ heading and he’ll bang in the goals for fun. 

[sven78]

Just need this season to be over. Literally feels like I have been FM'd without a doubt.

Improvement in performance by a mile in the last away game against Tottenham leads me into 2x home games

1. Home to Burnley - best performance for ages, missed far too many chances. Draw 1-1 with a soft Penalty

2. Crystal Palace - again, strong performance, leading 1-0 for ages, soft penalty 1-1, 92nd minute winner from a corner and lose 2-1.

So frustrated with it now.

[kr10]

8 hours ago, sven78 said:

Just need this season to be over. Literally feels like I have been FM'd without a doubt.

Improvement in performance by a mile in the last away game against Tottenham leads me into 2x home games

1. Home to Burnley - best performance for ages, missed far too many chances. Draw 1-1 with a soft Penalty

2. Crystal Palace - again, strong performance, leading 1-0 for ages, soft penalty 1-1, 92nd minute winner from a corner and lose 2-1.

So frustrated with it now.

Honestly, just really insanely bad luck. My laptop would be in pieces if this happened to me. 
 

keep your squad together, add a tall striker and maybe one more big upgrade and go from there. Your performances certainly seem a lot better now. Which changes did you finally end up making? This is also for me to better understand the tactic at lower levels of footballer ability. 

[sven78]

13 hours ago, kr10 said:

Honestly, just really insanely bad luck. My laptop would be in pieces if this happened to me. 
 

keep your squad together, add a tall striker and maybe one more big upgrade and go from there. Your performances certainly seem a lot better now. Which changes did you finally end up making? This is also for me to better understand the tactic at lower levels of footballer ability. 

So I adjusted the defensive line to standard, took off play out from the back, left full back on support, right back on attack, changed the passing to standard and slightly increased tempo to higher. Has definitely had an effect, I got my first win for 12 games a 1-0 against Newcastle but then had to save and haven't been back on since. Bizarrely I got offered an interview for the Celtic Job, so took the interview just to see what the outcome would be and following me beating Newcastle, I got offered the job. I have saved it at this point without making a decision and I genuinely don't know what to do haha

Stick with Peterborough and get through this with a 2nd go at promotion next season or go to Celtic who have a huge transfer budget but a depleted squad and have a go at that. 

Without doubt the fact I went a bit crazy with the money available and made too many upgrades to players has had an effect, given on the face of it they were all far superior players, its doubtful they were the right type of player.

Really appreciate you taking the time to look at the issues and offer an insight. The formation/tactics is without doubt a really solid one and the football when it works is exactly what I have been trying to achieve.

[Robson 07]

I don't look in the tactic sharing centre very often but I thought the opening post was a terrific write-up.

[thegoon65]

Window closed and have managed to bring in the players needed to expand my squad. 2 big spends for Ipswich anyway and also heavily focused on youth, excellent pre season using only the original 442 and the against harder teams version.

Pre Season plenty of clean sheets 

Transfers

Central Midfielder (Defend) Cover Player

Pressing Forward (Attack) Star Player

Central Defender (Defend) Cover Only

Central Midfield (Defend) Cover Only

Defender Right/Left Back (Support/Attack) Cover Only

Wide Playmaker Right (Support) Big Buy, Needs to be trained for the role but looks a natural.

Defender Centre (Defend) Cover but a wonderkid.

2 future transfers both young and wonderkids

Feel free to comment but I'm very pleased with what I have got again a tight £50m budget and think I've spent well.

[kr10]

1 hour ago, thegoon65 said:

Window closed and have managed to bring in the players needed to expand my squad. 2 big spends for Ipswich anyway and also heavily focused on youth, excellent pre season using only the original 442 and the against harder teams version.

Pre Season plenty of clean sheets 

Transfers

Central Midfielder (Defend) Cover Player

Pressing Forward (Attack) Star Player

Central Defender (Defend) Cover Only

Central Midfield (Defend) Cover Only

Defender Right/Left Back (Support/Attack) Cover Only

Wide Playmaker Right (Support) Big Buy, Needs to be trained for the role but looks a natural.

Defender Centre (Defend) Cover but a wonderkid.

2 future transfers both young and wonderkids

Feel free to comment but I'm very pleased with what I have got again a tight £50m budget and think I've spent well.

Can you comment on what you mean by the original 442 and the “against harder teams version”? Especially in terms of your striker roles, as you has said you experimented with 2 attack roles up front? 
 

also, instead of using the 4411 (which I don’t like at all anymore), you can use a 4141 - same team instructions, just different shape. You won’t score too many but it is an elite defensive formation - good for closing our games, and for Liverpool/City away etc. Also, it can be played with the same squad as your 442:

———-PF(s)

Wa CMa CMs IWa

———DLPd    

FBs CD CD     FBs/a

Similar overall principles as the 442, but with a DM 

[thegoon65]

On 18/04/2020 at 13:58, kr10 said:

Can you comment on what you mean by the original 442 and the “against harder teams version”? Especially in terms of your striker roles, as you has said you experimented with 2 attack roles up front? 
 

also, instead of using the 4411 (which I don’t like at all anymore), you can use a 4141 - same team instructions, just different shape. You won’t score too many but it is an elite defensive formation - good for closing our games, and for Liverpool/City away etc. Also, it can be played with the same squad as your 442:

———-PF(s)

Wa CMa CMs IWa

———DLPd    

FBs CD CD     FBs/a

Similar overall principles as the 442, but with a DM 

I might experiment with this keeping the WPs on the right and try a DM or Anchorman instead of a DLPs. I have the players for the positions but don't want to disrupt the football I get while using the WPs. I will give it a go and report back, I open the season away to Man City but not much time for the players to get familiar with the tactic but let's see what happens. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by thegoon65

[andre62]

can you share @thegoon65 the 4-1-4-1 tactic please?

[kr10]

3 hours ago, thegoon65 said:

I might experiment with this keeping the WPs on the right and try a DM or Anchorman instead of a DLPs. I have the players for the positions but don't want to disrupt the football I get while using the WPs. I will give it a go and report back, I open the season away to Man City but not much time for the players to get familiar with the tactic but let's see what happens. 

The IWa is there as you want another player getting into the box to act as a secondary goal scorer (basically a withdrawn inside forward). Also the CMs and WPs will tend to occupy the same spaces. My recommendation would therefore be to keep the IWa.

Trust me - The WP is by far my favorite role and I desperately tried to modify the 4141 to use a WP. I even tried a CMd and a DMs to make this work - sadly, on the pitch the CMd and DMs took up nearly identical positions in possession (they were literally standing on top of each other), so I had to give it up. It isn't a pretty tactic like the 442, but it sure is very solid defensively whilst ensuring good bodies in attack (4 attack duties, including 3 from midfield). That was my idea at least - defend with 10 behind the ball, break forward aggressively with 5 players. 

Since the style of pressing, defensive line, passing etc is the same, I don't think you should see too much of a difference in tactic familiary
 

Edited April 19, 2020 by kr10

[kr10]

2 hours ago, andre62 said:

can you share @thegoon65 the 4-1-4-1 tactic please?

Here you go:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/4f0mb8ccawi9mhl/4-1-4-1.fmf/file

This was actually the tactic I developed in FM 18, that formed the base of the 4-4-2. I had an inverted winger who was an elite talent but not much of a goalscorer, so I made him a WP and built from there.

The IWa could end up being your top goalscorer, so it's important to chose the right player there - think inside forward. 

[kr10]

On 18/04/2020 at 16:40, thegoon65 said:

Window closed and have managed to bring in the players needed to expand my squad. 2 big spends for Ipswich anyway and also heavily focused on youth, excellent pre season using only the original 442 and the against harder teams version.

Pre Season plenty of clean sheets 

Transfers

Central Midfielder (Defend) Cover Player

Pressing Forward (Attack) Star Player

Central Defender (Defend) Cover Only

Central Midfield (Defend) Cover Only

Defender Right/Left Back (Support/Attack) Cover Only

Wide Playmaker Right (Support) Big Buy, Needs to be trained for the role but looks a natural.

Defender Centre (Defend) Cover but a wonderkid.

2 future transfers both young and wonderkids

Feel free to comment but I'm very pleased with what I have got again a tight £50m budget and think I've spent well.

The pressing forward and WP I like a lot. Both have excellent stat distribution and the right kind of profiles for the job required. 

With the 4-1-4-1 to close out tight games and to use away from home against the big boys, you should certainly be targeting CL football. 

[diLLa88]

I've been using this tactic for a bit. I eventually made adjustments to the wide playmaker as he wasnt really effective for me, and moved him up into a inside forward role. This has made the tactic much better for me with beautiful passing and lots of chances.

[kr10]

7 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

I've been using this tactic for a bit. I eventually made adjustments to the wide playmaker as he wasnt really effective for me, and moved him up into a inside forward role. This has made the tactic much better for me with beautiful passing and lots of chances.

From the opening post, the AF should be right footed (so left footed for the inverted tactic you are using). 
 

This is important because by using a left footed player here, you are eliminating 2 routes to goal:

1. AF making a channel run and squaring to his strike partner 

2. Through ball from WP to AF, which he can shoot across goal with his stronger foot

If you haven’t tried a left footed AF, I would recommend doing so. Also, I am assuming that the WP in the above setup is right footed? 
 

I would personally not use the WP in the AM strata as that ruins the defensive structure of the team - the idea is to have 3 compact lines of players to restrict vertical space for the opponents in play in. Arrigo Sacchi said that he wanted not more than 25 meters of vertical space between the 3 lines, which is very difficult to achieve with 4 lines of players. 

To each his own, but I would never make a move that significantly sacrificed defensive stability to try and improve attacking output (the WP does work well with the right player and the right correct players around him)- just my 2 cents. 

[diLLa88]

6 hours ago, kr10 said:

From the opening post, the AF should be right footed (so left footed for the inverted tactic you are using). 
 

This is important because by using a left footed player here, you are eliminating 2 routes to goal:

1. AF making a channel run and squaring to his strike partner 

2. Through ball from WP to AF, which he can shoot across goal with his stronger foot

If you haven’t tried a left footed AF, I would recommend doing so. Also, I am assuming that the WP in the above setup is right footed? 
 

I would personally not use the WP in the AM strata as that ruins the defensive structure of the team - the idea is to have 3 compact lines of players to restrict vertical space for the opponents in play in. Arrigo Sacchi said that he wanted not more than 25 meters of vertical space between the 3 lines, which is very difficult to achieve with 4 lines of players. 

To each his own, but I would never make a move that significantly sacrificed defensive stability to try and improve attacking output (the WP does work well with the right player and the right correct players around him)- just my 2 cents. 

I don't notice much difference on the defensive side with this adjustment, in fact most goals i conceede are from set pieces. You can also see from the barcelona stats how ineffective their whole front line was, which consists of all world class players.

 

My AML is currently a left-footed inside forward. Not ideal, but he is too good of a player to not use in this position.

I'll look out for a left footed AF, but as of now Osimhen seems to do the job well. He became top scorer of the premier league before when i was still using an ML WP in the same role.

 

I'm still testing out this setup, but results so far are promising on the attacking side, while not being overly exposed on the defensive side. I'll let you know how it unfolds over a whole season as my team is currently a bit in transition after selling €300m worth of first team players.

Edited April 20, 2020 by diLLa88

[kr10]

1 hour ago, diLLa88 said:

I don't notice much difference on the defensive side with this adjustment, in fact most goals i conceede are from set pieces. You can also see from the barcelona stats how ineffective their whole front line was, which consists of all world class players.

 

My AML is currently a left-footed inside forward. Not ideal, but he is too good of a player to not use in this position.

I'll look out for a left footed AF, but as of now Osimhen seems to do the job well. He became top scorer of the premier league before when i was still using an ML WP in the same role.

 

I'm still testing out this setup, but results so far are promising on the attacking side, while not being overly exposed on the defensive side. I'll let you know how it unfolds over a whole season as my team is currently a bit in transition after selling €300m worth of first team players.

This also explains why the WP role didn’t work as you were playing a left footed player on the left - all footedness from the opening post should be switched if you are going to use the inverted tactic. 
 

in any case, your iteration seems to be working fine as well, so good luck 

[diLLa88]

14 minutes ago, kr10 said:

This also explains why the WP role didn’t work as you were playing a left footed player on the left - all footedness from the opening post should be switched if you are going to use the inverted tactic. 
 

in any case, your iteration seems to be working fine as well, so good luck 

Not exactly true, as i had Todd Cantwell and Viktor Fischer before for the left WP role, both right footed.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Adopted this tactic in the 5th season of my Spezia save, working great so far! Only change is that the WP has changed to a Trequartista. Playing some beautiful, progressive football with my 2m tall Norwegian Striker bullying everybody as an Advanced Forward! Goals are predominantly scored by my two ST's, but my winger and Treq chip in often as well. 

 

[kr10]

7 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

Not exactly true, as i had Todd Cantwell and Viktor Fischer before for the left WP role, both right footed.

Fair enough! Thank you in any case for giving this a read and giving it a go.

just one thing to keep in mind - in my experience the WP contributed heavily not so much in terms of goals and assists, but more in terms of key passes - the pre-assist so to speak. This is also something that would be helpful to track on a game by game basis 

Edited April 20, 2020 by kr10

[kr10]

38 minutes ago, Buzz Lightyear said:

Adopted this tactic in the 5th season of my Spezia save, working great so far! Only change is that the WP has changed to a Trequartista. Playing some beautiful, progressive football with my 2m tall Norwegian Striker bullying everybody as an Advanced Forward! Goals are predominantly scored by my two ST's, but my winger and Treq chip in often as well. 

 

Interesting, what made you go with a Tq in the AM strata? It could definitely work well offensively, but the trequartista and attacking full back on the same flank does look a bit vulnerable. 
 

also, the attacking winger gets into Greta goal scoring positions quite often, so if you could upgrade that position to a genuine goal scoring threat I think you’ll see a lot of goals coming from that side (many headers as well). 
 

a freakishly tall AF is just perfect - when I first made this tactic I had Pietro Pelegrí, he had 18 or 19 jumping and was just unstoppable, so many headers 

[Buzz Lightyear]

1 hour ago, kr10 said:

Interesting, what made you go with a Tq in the AM strata? It could definitely work well offensively, but the trequartista and attacking full back on the same flank does look a bit vulnerable. 
 

also, the attacking winger gets into Greta goal scoring positions quite often, so if you could upgrade that position to a genuine goal scoring threat I think you’ll see a lot of goals coming from that side (many headers as well). 
 

a freakishly tall AF is just perfect - when I first made this tactic I had Pietro Pelegrí, he had 18 or 19 jumping and was just unstoppable, so many headers 

My two wingers are both injured haha, so Bellanova is my emergency backup for the position. Playing with a TQ seems to give Pedri (he's insane) much more creative freedom than if he were to be an Inside Forward or Advanced Playmaker. Not too vulnerable defensively too, apart from the match against Real but then I can't do too much with the budget I have compared to their squad. The WP was very quiet offensively for me last season, only got 3 goals and 6 assists in all comps, which is quite disappointing. That prompted me to make the switch.

[kr10]

7 hours ago, Buzz Lightyear said:

My two wingers are both injured haha, so Bellanova is my emergency backup for the position. Playing with a TQ seems to give Pedri (he's insane) much more creative freedom than if he were to be an Inside Forward or Advanced Playmaker. Not too vulnerable defensively too, apart from the match against Real but then I can't do too much with the budget I have compared to their squad. The WP was very quiet offensively for me last season, only got 3 goals and 6 assists in all comps, which is quite disappointing. That prompted me to make the switch.

thanks for the explanation - what ar who’s average ratings like? Key passes and chances created tends to bump up the average rating quite a bit, so at least these should be happening (ideally, he should be winger/AF/fullback before they assist, which won’t show up as an assist). 
 

Also, why are the PPMs on your WP/Tq? Besides standard playmaker PPMs, I’ve found “likes to switch ball to other flank”, “cuts inside from x wing”, and “looks for pass rather than attempting to score” are all very useful for a wide stationed creative player. 

[Buzz Lightyear]

3 hours ago, kr10 said:

thanks for the explanation - what ar who’s average ratings like? Key passes and chances created tends to bump up the average rating quite a bit, so at least these should be happening (ideally, he should be winger/AF/fullback before they assist, which won’t show up as an assist). 
 

Also, why are the PPMs on your WP/Tq? Besides standard playmaker PPMs, I’ve found “likes to switch ball to other flank”, “cuts inside from x wing”, and “looks for pass rather than attempting to score” are all very useful for a wide stationed creative player. 

getting him to learn to cut inside from both wings. Signed him this season but my old WP had an average rating of 6.9 and an average of 4 key passes per game. WP didn't seem to make incisive passes, would just play a short simple ball to my cm's who would then make a key pass to my fullback or my AF. Here you can see the two TQ's which I rotate depending on my matches.

[diLLa88]

After an inconsistent start of the season due to changes in my team I've finally gone more consistently and cemented myself into the top 4:

This is using the slightly adjusted version I've shown earlier.

Edited April 21, 2020 by diLLa88

[Amazingortega]

This tactic still working fine. Trying to play 442 with my new team 

[janrzm]

@kr10

Great OP, enjoyed reading your thought process and the level of detail. I consider myself an experienced player, I endeavor to play the game without using gegenpress as it always feels overpowered and to some degree like a cheat. This year is worse than ever IMO.

Hence how I came to be trawling through the tactics forum seeing if anyone was doing anything interesting. On reading your OP I decided to start a new save, attempt to push to one side any preconceived thoughts of my own and put faith in the tactic you presented.

I'd been wanting to start an Atletico Madrid save but didn't feel it possible to replicate their tactics and be successful. However, I did feel they had the basis of a good squad for your tactic so dove in to it.

First season,

We started superbly, winning our first 7 La Liga games with relative ease, then followed a few draws and a couple of defeats albeit to decent sides. I made a rod for my own back being too critical of the players, something I've done in literally ever save I've played this year and whilst I've done ok with that approach in past versions the game this year more than ever it looks like players don't respond well to criticism despite what the feedback may say......

Atletico have an excellent squad, players like Saul for the WP and Lemar for the W have great potential, unfortunately I'm trying to both learn and forget various PPM's that are detracting from their performance at present, hopefully I'll succeed. 

So far, I have felt the need to change the DLF to PF as well as shoring up the defensive role on the left hand side, opposition dependent. 

I've only read the opening post, once I get through season one I'll look at what I've learnt and read the rest of the thread. 

Thanks again.

Edited May 30, 2020 by janrzm

[kr10]

38 minutes ago, janrzm said:

@kr10

Great OP, enjoyed reading your thought process and the level of detail. I consider myself an experienced player, I endeavor to play the game without using gegenpress as it always feels overpowered and to some degree like a cheat. This year is worse than ever IMO.

Hence how I came to be trawling through the tactics forum seeing if anyone was doing anything interesting. On reading your OP I decided to start a new save, attempt to push to one side any preconceived thoughts of my own and put faith in the tactic you presented.

I'd been wanting to start an Atletico Madrid save but didn't feel it possible to replicate their tactics and be successful. However, I did feel they had the basis of a good squad for your tactic so dove in to it.

First season,

We started superbly, winning our first 7 La Liga games with relative ease, then followed a few draws and a couple of defeats albeit to decent sides. I made a rod for my own back being too critical of the players, something I've done in literally ever save I've played this year and whilst I've done ok with that approach in past versions the game this year more than ever it looks like players don't respond well to criticism despite what the feedback may say......

Atletico have an excellent squad, players like Saul for the WP and Lemar for the W have great potential, unfortunately I'm trying to both learn and forget various PPM's that are detracting from their performance at present, hopefully I'll succeed. 

So far, I have felt the need to change the DLF to PF as well as shoring up the defensive role on the left hand side, opposition dependent. 

I've only read the opening post, once I get through season one I'll look at what I've learnt and read the rest of the thread. 

Thanks again.

Can you post a screenshot of your tactics screen with players selected? I can give you a few Inputs on player/role combos based on this, from my experience in terms of what works for the tactic.

[Jungztar]

In my Dafuge LLM game I was struggeling and I decided to go 442 using many of the great ideas from this thread. The 442 i a super balanced system and works on all levels but you the players and one of my biggest lessons learned was to disregard all the young players with PA and build the team from players with solid CA (based on the lower league level). I have basically have 2 versions of the same formation which I mirror depending on the opposition. I use the scout report to identify weaknesses or the spaces to exploit and then I choose either the right or left version. My formation is based on a pressing part and a space exploiting part and I normally press the opposition creators and then exploit the spaces left by e.g. BBM or attacking fullbacks. This leads to us breaking up their attacks and launching quick counters using pass into space. If we dominate possession and are camping in their half I normally use work ball into box, cutbacks (low crosses) or deep crosses to break their defence.

Left version

 

This change resulted in a 17 match unbeaten run and we won the league and got promoted to the National League.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jungztar

[Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10]

On 20/04/2020 at 19:57, Buzz Lightyear said:

Adopted this tactic in the 5th season of my Spezia save, working great so far! Only change is that the WP has changed to a Trequartista. Playing some beautiful, progressive football with my 2m tall Norwegian Striker bullying everybody as an Advanced Forward! Goals are predominantly scored by my two ST's, but my winger and Treq chip in often as well. 

 

 

Interesting tweak. Did you add any PIs?

[zemaniano85]

Guys, I live the 442, and having good time with it... But when I face the 532, especially when playing in italy and my team is over achieving, I struggle to get my strikers score. Any tips? Thanks 

[yuchd]

Very reasonable tactic and get very good result with Milan, is there any updates for new version?