Too easy to go from obscure to the top?

[mikenevo]

Would people agree it's way too easy to reach the top? I started with literally nothing, the worst stats, no badges and starting the game with no team. I got my first job at Aberystwyth in Wales (2018 - 2019). I then moved the Bray Wanderers (2019) after the end of the season in Ireland, managing to get them promoted after their previous manager was sacked half way through the season. I then moved to Ballymena United (2019 - 2021) in Northern Ireland.  Part of the way into the 2021-2022 season I saw a job opening at Dundalk and soon after Swansea, I'd applied for both. I expected Dundalk to consider me and Swansea to laugh at me, considering Swansea had a much higher reputation that my current team. Dundalk hired someone closer to home and Swansea took a chance and hired me. I won the Championship and FA Cup that season with Swansea.

I'm now in the 2022-2023 season, I'm 6th place with Swansea and doing well in the Europa league. I've just lost to Manchester United, but they're still far behind in the table and the manager ended up being sacked after that game. I applied thinking I probably won't be given a thought. I got the job... They'd interviewed Juventus manager Massimiliano Allegri and they chose me over him??? I don't even have a continental pro licence yet, I'm on A...

Does anyone have any similar experiences or was I just lucky to land myself in this position? My reputation is 3 and half stars (good) 

[phd_angel]

Agreed. I was thinking about this just yesterday.

I started a journeyman save with all leagues and countries (yes, it runs slow...), and I picked Volta Redonda (Brazil 3rd division). I was easily promoted to the 2nd division as champions and was runner-up in the local  highly competitive (Carioca) league. I was then bombarded with job offers from European first leagues, and go a job at Sporting in Portugal. All of that in 1.5 seasons.

[Federico]

Isn't this the beauty of the game? Running a great career from zero to reach the top. How many times does this happen in reality?

In the end, you can reject offers and accept them when you think it's time to.

[yolixeya]

My friend and me started the save at about same time both as Sunday League player and the lowest badge, and both got the job in the Beligian 3rd division. But our paths were different. We both saved the clubs form relegation then won to back to back promotions, that part was a bit too easy.  But during those seasons he was allowed to take the coaching courses while my club was in financial trouble and couldn't afford it. So in the first season in the top tier he received job offer from Anderlecht and took it and went on to win the league and in 3-4 seasons managed to win CL with them, then moving to Man City and winning CL a few times with them. My progression was much slower. I stayed in my club much longer, finishing 9th, 6th, 3rd and 4th and struggling in those seasons to finish those coaching coarses. I applied for many jobs but was rejected most of the time due to low reputation. Did have some chances to move but they were not that great. Then I finally moved to Genk, won a league 3 times then moved to Milan where I finally won CL. My friend had more success but I got more enjoyment out of my save.

It is a bit too easy when you figure it out but it's a game and most games are like that. But still there are a lot of people struggling. And if it's easy to you, you can try one of those challenges or just play with club that is struggling financially like I did and make it even harder ny not appliing for job offers by yourself.

[mikenevo]

On 29/08/2019 at 12:27, Federico said:

In the end, you can reject offers and accept them when you think it's time to.

I don't really get why people come out with stuff like this. The point is that I was able to become the manager of Manchester United who had just won the league last season. 1 year prior I was managing Ballymena United in Northern Ireland. I shouldn't have even been able to get the Swansea job if you look at the reputation differences and yeah I did win the Championship and some how the FA Cup, but that shouldn't warrant me getting a top job.

Rejecting the offer to be manager just to make it feel realistic shouldn't even need to happen.

[Lanko]

23 minutes ago, mikenevo said:

I don't really get why people come out with stuff like this. The point is that I was able to become the manager of Manchester United who had just won the league last season. 1 year prior I was managing Ballymena United in Northern Ireland. I shouldn't have even been able to get the Swansea job if you look at the reputation differences and yeah I did win the Championship and some how the FA Cup, but that shouldn't warrant me getting a top job.

Rejecting the offer to be manager just to make it feel realistic shouldn't even need to happen.

Yes, I don't understand it either.

There's obviously a "player bias" so the game notices you more (and apparently your players too) and gets you jobs/interviews that in no way you would be betting in real life.

It's absurd we have to "roleplay" this to make the game more believable, when it should be the point of the game.

One thing is being able to directly apply for a club, because it's a game, the other is being completely obscure in 3rd division and getting a Premier invite from a mid-top side just like that and having to think "should I decline to be more realistic?"

Edited August 30, 2019 by Lanko

[phd_angel]

51 minutes ago, mikenevo said:

I don't really get why people come out with stuff like this. The point is that I was able to become the manager of Manchester United who had just won the league last season. 1 year prior I was managing Ballymena United in Northern Ireland. I shouldn't have even been able to get the Swansea job if you look at the reputation differences and yeah I did win the Championship and some how the FA Cup, but that shouldn't warrant me getting a top job.

Rejecting the offer to be manager just to make it feel realistic shouldn't even need to happen.

 

29 minutes ago, Lanko said:

Yes, I don't understand it either.

There's obviously a "player bias" so the game notices you more (and apparently your players too) and gets you jobs/interviews that in no way you would be betting in real life.

It's absurd we have to "roleplay" this to make the game more believable, when it should be the point of the game.

One thing is being able to directly apply for a club, because it's a game, the other is being completely obscure in 3rd division and getting a Premier invite from a mid-top side just like that and having to think "should I decline to be more realistic?"

I agree with these comments and many others'.

Game developers are building "feel good" features in their algorithms, so to keep gamers buying and playing longer.  If the game is too easy or too hard, players tune out. So, developers have built something called "dynamic difficulty adjustment". (Search a YouTube video titled "EA does not want you to see this" to learn about the patent).

Yet, apparently, SIGA still hasn't catch up with this new technology!
 

 

 

[thehig2]

@mikenevo

Agree, only seems to be on fm19 ive noticed it.

My journeyman game I started unemployed with no badges like you did, then went to llandudno after two years there I moved to Belarus to Lokomotiv Gomel, then Inter Milan ????

I didn't even have my pro licence and had only one a Belarusian national cup and their second division.

After a few seasons at Inter I got bored because it didn't feel earned to be there.

[Federico]

Because it's a game guys.

If you want a real life experience starting from 16th level in England, be ready to stay all your career around those leagues. Would this game be fun for everyone? I sense it wouldn't.

Things must be unreal to secure enjoyement and fun. The game gives you what real life hardly could. And FM must cover a wide spread of tastes and users, not only yours or mine.

And for many people finding FM easy, there's at least the same number of users that actually struggle with it. So... be respectful when say it's "easy", because for someone it is not at all.

[Hovis Dexter]

40 minutes ago, Federico said:

Because it's a game guys.

If you want a real life experience starting from 16th level in England, be ready to stay all your career around those leagues. Would this game be fun for everyone? I sense it wouldn't.

For realism I'd start as a somebody who wasn't good enough to play Sunday League - does that give my manager negative attributes? I couldn't imagine a more boring game that starting at the bottom of the pyramid and staying there forever thinking that I was successful if my team ended the season in the top half of the league

40 minutes ago, Federico said:

Things must be unreal to secure enjoyment and fun. The game gives you what real life hardly could. And FM must cover a wide spread of tastes and users, not only yours or mine.

It's a fantasy so that it's possible to go from whatever level you want and become the best manager that you can. Isn't that a major attraction of the game? Look at the popularity of all the various challenges.

41 minutes ago, Federico said:

And for many people finding FM easy, there's at least the same number of users that actually struggle with it. So... be respectful when say it's "easy", because for someone it is not at all.

Absolutely, look at all the posts in the tactics section where people are saying they can't defend or can't score goals or both.

[autohoratio]

I don't think it's that FM is too hard, I think it's that aspects are explained poorly or contradictorily which leads to confusion and choices which go against how the match engine intends you to play it.

[mikenevo]

2 hours ago, Federico said:

Because it's a game guys.

If you want a real life experience starting from 16th level in England, be ready to stay all your career around those leagues. Would this game be fun for everyone? I sense it wouldn't.

Things must be unreal to secure enjoyement and fun. The game gives you what real life hardly could. And FM must cover a wide spread of tastes and users, not only yours or mine.

And for many people finding FM easy, there's at least the same number of users that actually struggle with it. So... be respectful when say it's "easy", because for someone it is not at all.

Lets be honest here, if people are struggling with the game then they shouldn't even be trying to start with no badges, experience and whatever. This is something that is supposed to make the game harder as you're a nobody and have to make a name for yourself. What I'm saying is that even at the hardest difficulty, it's too easy to rise to the top.

Also I'm not really talking about how easy it is to win games here, I'm talking about how easy it is to go from Ballymena United, to Swansea and the to Manchester United within just one year of moving from Ballymena. Also to note, it's only the 2022/2023 season. The reputation gaps are just huge between Ballymena United and Swansea, whilst also being huge between Swansea and Manchester United. It's not like I took over a Swansea team that were premier league proven, they were struggling in the Championship for several seasons.

Taking all this into consideration, I don't think I'm being disrespectful by saying it's too easy.

[Lanko]

"Being easy" is not the issue in this specific problem.

If Final Fantasy gave my lvl 1 character the Sword of Doom to one shot every enemy in the way from the start, the game isn't being easy. It's being stupid.

Likewise in FM, being mid table/win a promotion from 4th division and getting a Premier mid-top side interview in those 2-3 years is not the game "being easy", it's being nonsensical.

In fact, it's even a disservice for players finding the game hard, as the pressure for results from a much higher/top side will just cause them frustration.

 

 

[mikenevo]

40 minutes ago, Lanko said:

"Being easy" is not the issue in this specific problem.

If Final Fantasy gave my lvl 1 character the Sword of Doom to one shot every enemy in the way from the start, the game isn't being easy. It's being stupid.

Likewise in FM, being mid table/win a promotion from 4th division and getting a Premier mid-top side interview in those 2-3 years is not the game "being easy", it's being nonsensical.

In fact, it's even a disservice for players finding the game hard, as the pressure for results from a much higher/top side will just cause them frustration.

 

 

This exactly.

[BadAss88]

11 hours ago, mikenevo said:

Lets be honest here, if people are struggling with the game then they shouldn't even be trying to start with no badges, experience and whatever. This is something that is supposed to make the game harder as you're a nobody and have to make a name for yourself. What I'm saying is that even at the hardest difficulty, it's too easy to rise to the top.

Also I'm not really talking about how easy it is to win games here, I'm talking about how easy it is to go from Ballymena United, to Swansea and the to Manchester United within just one year of moving from Ballymena. Also to note, it's only the 2022/2023 season. The reputation gaps are just huge between Ballymena United and Swansea, whilst also being huge between Swansea and Manchester United. It's not like I took over a Swansea team that were premier league proven, they were struggling in the Championship for several seasons.

Taking all this into consideration, I don't think I'm being disrespectful by saying it's too easy.

Exactly and you won promotion and the FA cup with them! So you are a promising manager who attracts attention!

[99]

I understand all the "too easy" arguments, yes I've also won the Champions League with teams that never have IRL.

But I wonder who might still play a save replicating the career of many managers whose life consists of: only getting jobs from teams about to be relegated, actually being relegated many of those times, being constanstly fired, spending a dozen seasons without winning a single trophy, not even a national cup, or a lower division league title. How many would play a 30 year save without ever actually rising to proeminence, while at the same time following the news of the best players and managers in the world, the best players he will never play with and the best managers he could never compare to. Cause that's the real life for many professionals. How many would keep playing a save with their beloved lower league team never actually being able to get promoted to the next level, even if the next level is "just" a 3rd tier.

How many would keep playing after given an opportunity at, let's say, 2nd tier, but getting relegated because the team isn't good, getting fired and get a level bellow, getting fired again and getting another level bellow, to "finish" a save and say, oh, what a super fun I had, started at 2nd tier and by the end the only job offers I had were from the 6th tier! Amazing! Cause that happens IRL too, starting at "top" and finishing in complete obscurity, not just because you "suck", but because you never get a squad that allows you to do better... and the only time the media remembers you exist it's because a journalist made a piece on the top flops.

That would be considered hard and realistic, but it's the perfect recipe to take the game down and either make a new save with Manchester City or just drop FM alltogether. And even if some people here would like to play with that hard experience, remember that this boards usually get the best and more experienced players in the world, but that doesn't represent the core buyers of FM.

Having said this, I too find FM19, tho the best version so far, a bit too easy yes. Once you start really understanding tactics and micromanaging everything from the staff to the daily training and looking for the right set of attributes for every position, yes, it will become easy. But that doesn't mean I want a game where I would probably never get a single damn trophy to show my kids, which is the life of so many managers and players worldwide.

Edited September 1, 2019 by 99

[mikenevo]

13 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

Exactly and you won promotion and the FA cup with them! So you are a promising manager who attracts attention!

You don't get the point, I'm still a relatively unknown person in the world of football, I don't have the pro badges, I was managing Ballymena United around a year prior. Sure, the FA cup win and winning the Championship would give you a boost in reputation, but considering I was a total nobody before hand, you can't tell me that doing that means the Premier League Champions will want me. These clubs look for top class managers, their players don't want some possible one season wonder managing them.

Not to mention I was up against a World Class manager in Allegri who has won countless trophies...

Edited September 1, 2019 by mikenevo

[mikenevo]

2 hours ago, 99 said:

I understand all the "too easy" arguments, yes I've also won the Champions League with teams that never have IRL.

But I wonder who might still play a save replicating the career of many managers whose life consists of: only getting jobs from teams about to be relegated, actually being relegated many of those times, being constanstly fired, spending a dozen seasons without winning a single trophy, not even a national cup, or a lower division league title. How many would play a 30 year save without ever actually rising to proeminence, while at the same time following the news of the best players and managers in the world, the best players he will never play with and the best managers he could never compare to. Cause that's the real life for many professionals. How many would keep playing a save with their beloved lower league team never actually being able to get promoted to the next level, even if the next level is "just" a 3rd tier.

How many would keep playing after given an opportunity at, let's say, 2nd tier, but getting relegated because the team isn't good, getting fired and get a level bellow, getting fired again and getting another level bellow, to "finish" a save and say, oh, what a super fun I had, started at 2nd tier and by the end the only job offers I had were from the 6th tier! Amazing! Cause that happens IRL too, starting at "top" and finishing in complete obscurity, not just because you "suck", but because you never get a squad that allows you to do better... and the only time the media remembers you exist it's because a journalist made a piece on the top flops.

That would be considered hard and realistic, but it's the perfect recipe to take the game down and either make a new save with Manchester City or just drop FM alltogether. And even if some people here would like to play with that hard experience, remember that this boards usually get the best and more experienced players in the world, but that doesn't represent the core buyers of FM.

Having said this, I too find FM19, tho the best version so far, a bit too easy yes. Once you start really understanding tactics and micromanaging everything from the staff to the daily training and looking for the right set of attributes for every position, yes, it will become easy. But that doesn't mean I want a game where I would probably never get a single damn trophy to show my kids, which is the life of so many managers and players worldwide.

People aren't really getting the point of this thread. This isn't a "the game is too easy because I win every trophy" thread, it's a "it's too easy to go from obscurity, managing low level teams, to getting a job at a world class club within 5 years" thread. I have no problems with the management of teams being too easy, as I understand that in order for the game to be marketable, it needs to be playable.

When I got the job at Swansea City, i thought "ok, this is fine, they just want to take a risk and hope it pays off and I know I'm good enough to repay that faith", then when I get the Manchester United job 9 months later... What is this game? I've gone from managing a 2 star team, to managing a 4.5 star team (who are the best in England) within 1 year. You can't tell me that's normal and should happen.

I basically applied for the Manchester United job just to see what happened, having got the Swansea job without expecting to even be considered.

[RBKalle]

15 minuti fa, mikenevo ha scritto:

People aren't really getting the point of this thread. This isn't a "the game is too easy because I win every trophy" thread, it's a "it's too easy to go from obscurity, managing low level teams, to getting a job at a world class club within 5 years" thread. I have no problems with the management of teams being too easy, as I understand that in order for the game to be marketable, it needs to be playable.

When I got the job at Swansea City, i thought "ok, this is fine, they just want to take a risk and hope it pays off and I know I'm good enough to repay that faith", then when I get the Manchester United job 9 months later... What is this game? I've gone from managing a 2 star team, to managing a 4.5 star team (who are the best in England) within 1 year. You can't tell me that's normal and should happen.

I basically applied for the Manchester United job just to see what happened, having got the Swansea job without expecting to even be considered.

It's too easy to land prestigious jobs after only a couple of good seasons with lower-level clubs because it's too easy to overachieve at ANY level in the game.

So while your original question wasn't strictly related to the game's difficulty in itself, it's one of its byproducts.

Then again, sometimes Top Clubs hire managers whose pedigree isn't exactly top-shelf... Seven years ago Maurizio Sarri was a 53yo dude with a modest career in lower divisions and then 3 good seasons at Empoli (only one in Serie A) were enough to get him appointed by Napoli.
Heck, two of AC Milan's most iconic managers, Sacchi and Capello, were given the job despite a very unconvincing background, both being basically rookies at Serie A level.

Mourinho didn't have a stellar record when he shocked European football with Porto. Guardiola and ZIdane didn't have a record at all. People could argue Solskjær isn't the right man for MUFC and his career so far isn't exactly a success story...

The list could go on and on... The problem isn't a moderately successful (or promising) manager landing a prestigious job despite not being a Top Manager already. The problem is you'll likely be able to transition from Swansea to a Top Club with little or no issues, maybe only a few hiccups while your opening winning streak (usually courtesy of Gegenpressing 4-3-1-2/4-4-2) will win the locker room leaders over and they'll all love you.

[Lord Rowell]

I completely disagree with this argument.

First of all, from the amount of people on this forum alone who really struggle with their tactics, that side of the game doesn't seem to be easy for most people at all.

I can't possibly comment on how people in this thread play the game. But I will make the general comment that when people use pre-prepared, downloaded tactics, as opposed to making their own, developing a style of play, adapting it in-match, short-term and long-term to solve problems, or evolve, then you are going to find the game easier and meteoric rises from National League North to the Champions League are more likely to happen.

The game shouldn't be too hard anyway. At the end of the day, its a game and its meant to be fun! People want to take their team to the top, to live the dream and if you make it too real, its not going to be enjoyable anymore. I think SI pretty much always get the balance right.

I've been playing FM, and CM before, for a long, long time and have always achieved success of some sort. My current long-term save is with my own club, Sunderland. Yes, I did get back-to-back promotions to the Premiership easier than I expected. But then reality bit and I barely avoided relegation (unlike long-term Preston / Nuneaton saves in earlier versions where I did go down, the latter quite horribly!). I've clawed us up the ladder season by season and we're now, in 2028, a regular Champions League side. Still, I've yet to win a trophy of any kind and I'm finding those final steps to success still pretty tough

[mikenevo]

23 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

It's too easy to land prestigious jobs after only a couple of good seasons with lower-level clubs because it's too easy to overachieve at ANY level in the game.

So while your original question wasn't strictly related to the game's difficulty in itself, it's one of its byproducts.

Then again, sometimes Top Clubs hire managers whose pedigree isn't exactly top-shelf... Seven years ago Maurizio Sarri was a 53yo dude with a modest career in lower divisions and then 3 good seasons at Empoli (only one in Serie A) were enough to get him appointed by Napoli.
Heck, two of AC Milan's most iconic managers, Sacchi and Capello, were given the job despite a very unconvincing background, both being basically rookies at Serie A level.

Mourinho didn't have a stellar record when he shocked European football with Porto. Guardiola and ZIdane didn't have a record at all. People could argue Solskjær isn't the right man for MUFC and his career so far isn't exactly a success story...

The list could go on and on... The problem isn't a moderately successful (or promising) manager landing a prestigious job despite not being a Top Manager already. The problem is you'll likely be able to transition from Swansea to a Top Club with little or no issues, maybe only a few hiccups while your opening winning streak (usually courtesy of Gegenpressing 4-3-1-2/4-4-2) will win the locker room leaders over and they'll all love you.

Despite making a decent point with several of these managers, you still can't compare them to my own journey.

Maurizio Sarri was 53, so he's got experience, he'll have done all his badges without doubt and he had at least proven himself capable in Serie A.

Sacchi wasn't a complete nobody. 

Capello was well known from his playing days and had started his management career with Milan's youth.

Mourinho had connections and learnt from Van Gaal.

Guardiola and Zidane were class players and went on to start their coaching careers with the clubs youth teams, much like Solskjær did. They'd already proven something to somebody who mattered.

[mikenevo]

34 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

I completely disagree with this argument.

First of all, from the amount of people on this forum alone who really struggle with their tactics, that side of the game doesn't seem to be easy for most people at all.

I can't possibly comment on how people in this thread play the game. But I will make the general comment that when people use pre-prepared, downloaded tactics, as opposed to making their own, developing a style of play, adapting it in-match, short-term and long-term to solve problems, or evolve, then you are going to find the game easier and meteoric rises from National League North to the Champions League are more likely to happen.

The game shouldn't be too hard anyway. At the end of the day, its a game and its meant to be fun! People want to take their team to the top, to live the dream and if you make it too real, its not going to be enjoyable anymore. I think SI pretty much always get the balance right.

I've been playing FM, and CM before, for a long, long time and have always achieved success of some sort. My current long-term save is with my own club, Sunderland. Yes, I did get back-to-back promotions to the Premiership easier than I expected. But then reality bit and I barely avoided relegation (unlike long-term Preston / Nuneaton saves in earlier versions where I did go down, the latter quite horribly!). I've clawed us up the ladder season by season and we're now, in 2028, a regular Champions League side. Still, I've yet to win a trophy of any kind and I'm finding those final steps to success still pretty tough

We are talking about journeyman saves, not 1 club saves.

[bigmattb28]

I was offered the England job after 2 seasons at Ballyclare and 3 seasons before that at Moyola Park, in Northern Ireland second division, with no coaching badges and Sunday league rep. So yeah, pretty easy building a rep up in 19. 

[Lanko]

 

On 01/09/2019 at 11:20, 99 said:

But I wonder who might still play a save replicating the career of many managers whose life consists of: only getting jobs from teams about to be relegated, actually being relegated many of those times, being constanstly fired, spending a dozen seasons without winning a single trophy, not even a national cup, or a lower division league title.

How many would play a 30 year save without ever actually rising to proeminence, while at the same time following the news of the best players and managers in the world, the best players he will never play with and the best managers he could never compare to. Cause that's the real life for many professionals. How many would keep playing a save with their beloved lower league team never actually being able to get promoted to the next level, even if the next level is "just" a 3rd tier.

How many would keep playing after given an opportunity at, let's say, 2nd tier, but getting relegated because the team isn't good, getting fired and get a level bellow, getting fired again and getting another level bellow, to "finish" a save and say, oh, what a super fun I had, started at 2nd tier and by the end the only job offers I had were from the 6th tier! Amazing! Cause that happens IRL too, starting at "top" and finishing in complete obscurity, not just because you "suck", but because you never get a squad that allows you to do better... and the only time the media remembers you exist it's because a journalist made a piece on the top flops.

Nobody is asking for a "it needs to take 30+ seasons until MAYBE you are considered for a mid-top EPL side" , just that perhaps being offered it in like, 3 years later after being in the 4th-3rd division (without even winning anything or having proper badges) feels way too much of a player bias.

[mikenevo]

16 hours ago, Lanko said:

 

Nobody is asking for a "it needs to take 30+ seasons until MAYBE you are considered for a mid-top EPL side" , just that perhaps being offered it in like, 3 years later after being in the 4th-3rd division (without even winning anything or having proper badges) feels way too much of a player bias.

The problem with the internet these days is that it's full of trolls and single-minded people. It's not that they can't understand it, it's that they choose not to. It's a disease that hasn't yet been proven real.