Goalkeeper height

[MagicHat]

I'd like to know a bit about whether or not height reflects a goal keeper on the game in certain situations.

 

If you have a 6 ft GK and a 6ft6 GK with exactly the same stats, won't the 6ft6 be a better shot stopper? The taller the keeper the bigger the reach and range of motion right? If they dive at a similar speed the 6ft6 GK would cover more area. Does the game take this into account? 

[Serj]

Surely it’s relative to the type of shot taken as a shorter keeper has a lower centre of gravity and should deal better with low shots?

[MagicHat]

11 minutes ago, Serj said:

Surely it’s relative to the type of shot taken as a shorter keeper has a lower centre of gravity and should deal better with low shots?

I'm talking under the assumption that both players get from A to B in the same amount of time. So both players have exactly the same attributes. They can both get to the bottom corner from the centre of the goal in the same amount of time but the 6ft 6 GK would be able to cover a bigger area of the net in the same amount of time. It's like in boxing, two boxers can be the same speed but the one with a longer reach can punch from further away, even though they are the same speed.

 

Im just curious if anyone knows if it's implemented in the game.

 

Imagine a shot to the top corner, two similar goal keepers try to save it but one is much taller and covers more area of the goal, wouldnt they be the better shot stopper being that all other attributes are the same.

[FrazT]

Their attributes will surely take all these physical abilities into account when arriving at a figure?

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, MagicHat said:

It's like in boxing, two boxers can be the same speed but the one with a longer reach can punch from further away, even though they are the same speed.

 

I get your overall point... But its theoretical not practical, as fraz says, its already part of their attributes. You wont get a 6'6 keeper with same stats as a 6'0 keeper... Or if you do, theyd be equal on the pitch, as their height is already in the calculation. 

Re boxing analogy...nah, longer reach means longer recoil, punch speed might be the same but the smaller guy can 'reload' quicker. 

[MagicHat]

Imagine GK A can dive a maximum of 2 feet to the side in 0.5 of a second

Imagine GK B can dive a maximum of 2 feet to the side in 0.5 of a second

GK A is 6ft 6 and gk B is 6ft

GK A would be closer to the goal post than GK B.

For them both to dive to the side the same distance in the same time they would have the same attributes but the taller keeper would cover a bigger area? Which would in turn mean it's easier for him to save shots that are closer to the goal posts.

If they both could reach the exact same place in the same time, the shorter GK would need to be able to dive further in the same time, which would require him to have better attributes than the taller one.

[XaW]

If I'm not mistaken I read that things like height are reflected in the other attributes. Like Jumping Reach is how high they can reach, not how high they can jump. So a 170 cm player with a reach of 10 and a 190 cm player with a reach of 10 will have similar reach, but the lower guy is much better at jumping. Smaller players are just at a disadvantage based on their height, just like in real life.

[westy8chimp]

34 minutes ago, XaW said:

So a 170 cm player with a reach of 10 and a 190 cm player with a reach of 10

will have exactly the same max height. one will jump higher, one will start higher.. they'd both reach the same.

43 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

For them both to dive to the side the same distance in the same time they would have the same attributes but the taller keeper would cover a bigger area?

would need someone at SI to confirm if aerial ability (GK equivalent of jumping reach) covers horizontal 'dives' as well as vertical. If yes, see above. If no, potentially you've found a theoretical advantage.

Have you found two GKs with identical attributes, or are you creating two GKs with same attributes? FM would usually tailor the spread of attributes to some extent in tandem with physical traits. i.e. a taller keeper will have higher aerial ability, a shorter keeper might have better reflexes and agility.

[MagicHat]

22 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

will have exactly the same max height. one will jump higher, one will start higher.. they'd both reach the same.

would need someone at SI to confirm if aerial ability (GK equivalent of jumping reach) covers horizontal 'dives' as well as vertical. If yes, see above. If no, potentially you've found a theoretical advantage.

Have you found two GKs with identical attributes, or are you creating two GKs with same attributes? FM would usually tailor the spread of attributes to some extent in tandem with physical traits. i.e. a taller keeper will have higher aerial ability, a shorter keeper might have better reflexes and agility.

Thanks for your response, this is what my thought is. I always wondered if Aerial reach covered horizontal dives but i'm pretty sure it means how high they can get their hands to pluck the ball out of the air. 

First we need to know which stats would determine a GK's ability to stop a shot that was going in the bottom corner(i'd assume positioning, reflexes and agility with possibly other mental attributes such as anticipation, composure, concentration, decisions) then we would need to know if the height of the GK would make them better at diving considering all else is equal.

I think maybe they should take this into consideration for future versions. Maybe a "range of motion" stat or a "diving reach" stat. I know it could be hard to implement because they would need to know the keepers arm length/reach etc which is probably very hard to come by.

Another example is both are stood still and a shot is blasted within arms length of the taller GK but just out of reach for the shorter GK, they could both have the same reflexes but the taller one could reach further in the same amount of time... they react at the same speed but one can reach further.

[MrPompey]

Look at the modern day GK, 6ft is too short these days.

Aerial ability will be catches / punches from crosses, corners chips, lobs etc

Taller GK will have longer limbs and likely a better spread for diving, 1 v 1's, shot stopping, reach etc. He will still need handling, communication, kicking, jumping etc

A taller GK is not neccessarily a better GK but has better advantages to be so

How its all used in the FM ME is a question for SI ME guru's

[westy8chimp]

45 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

"diving reach" stat.

 should replace jumping reach for a GK... as jumping reach is redundant (dealt with via aerial ability)

[Baodan]

I sometimes almost manage to forget just how vague and unintuitive this game can be...

If the things said here are true then height has no importance what so ever in the game, a part from apparently being a factor in other stats.

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Baodan said:

I sometimes almost manage to forget just how vague and unintuitive this game can be...

If the things said here are true then height has no importance what so ever in the game, a part from apparently being a factor in other stats.

it is important... if you are tall and cant jump, your jumping reach is still equal to a shorter person who can jump.

the bold bit is what makes it important :P

[westy8chimp]

extend this to outfield players... is height of a player (or other physical traits) built into say the tackling attribute? If not, then surely 'tackle reach' is a possible advantage to have tall CB vs a short CB (all other attributes being equal).

[Baodan]

31 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

it is important... if you are tall and cant jump, your jumping reach is still equal to a shorter person who can jump.

No.

It should be that height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

But according to this thread its height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

Player height does not matter, since it's already calculated into the jumping reach stat.

[westy8chimp]

10 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Player height does not matter, since it's already calculated into the jumping reach stat.

semantics... but that sentence is wrong... if it didn't matter, it wouldn't be part of the calculation.

It's the same as real life... height + jumping ability (leap?) = jumping reach

If you are 5ft and you can jump 1ft... you still have less jumping reach than someone who is 6ft1 and white (can't jump at all).

 

[Nacaw]

8 minutes ago, Baodan said:

No.

It should be that height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

But according to this thread its height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

Player height does not matter, since it's already calculated into the jumping reach stat.

Yes.

You are both saying the same thing, really. Height + jumping ability = jumping reach. 

A player is 195cm tall, let us call him Per. He gets 13 jumping reach from his height, and 5 jumping reach from his ability to jump. 18 jumping reach total.*

Another player is 180cm tall, let us call him Tim. He gets 9 jumping reach from his height and 9 jumping reach from his ability to jump. 18 jumping reach total.* 

 

* This isn't how it actually works in game, but it illustrates that height would be counted twice in your suggestion.

[Baodan]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

semantics... but that sentence is wrong... if it didn't matter, it wouldn't be part of the calculation.

It's the same as real life... height + jumping ability (leap?) = jumping reach

If you are 5ft and you can jump 1ft... you still have less jumping reach than someone who is 6ft1 and white (can't jump at all).

Jumping reach in the game apparently takes height into account.

So if you're looking for a person with the ability to contest balls in the air, you can disregard height.

You disagree and I can't be bothered to elaborate or reiterate any further.

[XaW]

15 minutes ago, Baodan said:

No.

It should be that height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

But according to this thread its height + jumping reach = contesting air-balls (along with other stats of course)

Player height does not matter, since it's already calculated into the jumping reach stat.

Yes,  but Jumping Reach = height + jumping. So its (height + jumping) = jumping reach = contesting air-balls (+strength and other stuff).

I saw a table once where the researchers were given guidelines to set player jumping reach based on height and estimated jumping skill. I guess that newgens follow in the same mould.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

I saw a table once where the researchers were given guidelines to set player jumping reach based on height and estimated jumping skill.

 

[Nacaw]

5 minutes ago, Baodan said:

you can disregard height.

The person playing the game can disregard height. The computer doesn't, it's already in the calculation. But honestly, I thought that was common knowledge? Ever seen a player with 19-20 jumping reach that's under 185? See many tiny players above 10 jumping reach? Never wondered why?

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

 

That's the one, thanks!

[Baodan]

1 minute ago, Nacaw said:

The person playing the game can disregard height. The computer doesn't, it's already in the calculation. But honestly, I thought that was common knowledge? Ever seen a player with 19-20 jumping reach that's under 180? Never wondered why?

I am fairly sure that I have had a CB around 180-182 with 19/20 in jumping reach, yes. I'm at work now so I can't look trough saves or players to back this up.

[swansongs]

All else being equal a bigger goalie will be better than a smaller one because he won't even have to move to block more shots.

Same with outfield players, two players might have Jumping Reach 10 but the 5'2 guy is going to have to jump and head ball that Peter Crouch is chesting down for an easy finish.

[Nacaw]

5 minutes ago, Baodan said:

I am fairly sure that I have had a CB around 180-182 with 19/20 in jumping reach, yes. I'm at work now so I can't look trough saves or players to back this up.

Even if so, that's hardly the point. It's clear that jumping reach is connected to height, otherwise you'd be seeing a much bigger variance. IE. more tall players with less JR and more short players with higher JR.

[Baodan]

35 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

Even if so, that's hardly the point. It's clear that jumping reach is connected to height, otherwise you'd be seeing a much bigger variance. IE. more tall players with less JR and more short players with higher JR.

I apologize for replying to that last post you made, I honestly didn't realize that it was you again. Like I said, we have nothing more to discuss on this subject, so I will not be replying to any further comments.

37 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

Even if so, that's hardly the point. It's clear that jumping reach is connected to height, otherwise you'd be seeing a much bigger variance. IE. more tall players with less JR and more short players with higher JR.

Sure - but lets say the height information was removed completely, would that make any difference? Why would you need to know that information when it makes no difference?

 

[Nacaw]

2 minutes ago, Baodan said:

 

Sure - but lets say the height information was removed completely, would that make any difference? Why would you need to know that information when it makes no difference?

 

1

It doesn't, but it's nice flavor. Just like lots of other information is essentially useless for actual gameplay.

[HUNT3R]

8 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Sure - but lets say the height information was removed completely, would that make any difference? Why would you need to know that information when it makes no difference?

Check @swansongs's reply. For balls at a certain height, Peter Crouch won't need to jump as he's tall enough, but Stuart Little will need to jump.

[Baodan]

27 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Check @swansongs's reply. For balls at a certain height, Peter Crouch won't need to jump as he's tall enough, but Stuart Little will need to jump.

I do understand that a smaller player needs to jump higher to reach a ball, that is not really in question here. I was merely stating that since jumping reach already takes height into account and height really isn't used in any other regard, you could remove that information all together and the game would be the same.

I think that's kind of sad and I did like it more when I still believed it had value. 

[HUNT3R]

17 minutes ago, Baodan said:

I do understand that a smaller player needs to jump higher to reach a ball, that is not really in question here.

We're not talking about this either. This specific point has nothing to do with jumping reach but solely height.

[swansongs]

23 minutes ago, Baodan said:

I do understand that a smaller player needs to jump higher to reach a ball, that is not really in question here. I was merely stating that since jumping reach already takes height into account and height really isn't used in any other regard, you could remove that information all together and the game would be the same.

I think that's kind of sad and I did like it more when I still believed it had value. 

Height is used by the match engine, though. It determines the size of the little men in the graphics, and influences their decision making of how they approach the ball (head it, chest it, knee it, kick it, do I need to jump?)

Jumping Reach only applies to a small number of issues regarding height, it isn't a total replacement.

[Cal585]

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

 should replace jumping reach for a GK... as jumping reach is redundant (dealt with via aerial ability)

Wait, Jumping Reach is irrelevant compared to Aerial Ability? I thought it was one of the important GK stats...

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, Cal585 said:

Wait, Jumping Reach is irrelevant compared to Aerial Ability? I thought it was one of the important GK stats...

virtually irrelevant, especially as Sweeper Keepers don't position themselves aggressively when the opponent is in possession. Not sure I've ever seen a keeper head the ball

[Cal585]

Oh. Well that's good to know. I keep seeing jumping listed as an important attribute, such as the loading tooltips: "The ratings for reflexes, handling, communication, jumping and positioning are generally a good indicator for how good a goalkeeper is." I'll remember to read that as Aerial Ability now. Seems a bit misleading.

[Baodan]

15 minutes ago, Cal585 said:

Oh. Well that's good to know. I keep seeing jumping listed as an important attribute, such as the loading tooltips: "The ratings for reflexes, handling, communication, jumping and positioning are generally a good indicator for how good a goalkeeper is." I'll remember to read that as Aerial Ability now. Seems a bit misleading.

That's FM in a nutshell.

[westy8chimp]

i imagine the tooltips like a lot of the in game descriptions are largely misleading (or out of date)

[Baodan]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

We're not talking about this either. This specific point has nothing to do with jumping reach but solely height.

I have no idea what you're saying anymore, but you don't seem to contest my point so I'll assume it's valid.

[Baodan]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

i imagine the tooltips like a lot of the in game descriptions are largely misleading (or out of date)

It is a very difficult thing to keep updated, considering the changes being made all the time, especially from version to version. Thank God no one takes the tooltips seriously, could you imagine anyone actually basing their understanding of the game on the tooltips.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Baodan said:

I have no idea what you're saying anymore, but you don't seem to contest my point so I'll assume it's valid.

I don't need to say more. Swansongs has now posted it twice and I posted it too. Any of our posts will tell you what we're talking about. Have you seen swansongs's latest post?

 

2 hours ago, swansongs said:

Height is used by the match engine, though. It determines the size of the little men in the graphics, and influences their decision making of how they approach the ball (head it, chest it, knee it, kick it, do I need to jump?)

 

[Baodan]

I saw his post and it definitely gave me food for thought, but It's not like hes a programmer or works for SI so hes assuming that's how it works and I'm now assuming It probably isn't. Who's to say who is right, with this game no one really knows. 

Do we have any actual evidence that proves his statement?

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Baodan said:

I saw his post and it definitely gave me food for thought, but It's not like hes a programmer or works for SI so hes assuming that's how it works and I'm now assuming It probably isn't. Who's to say who is right, with this game no one really knows. 

Do we have any actual evidence that proves his statement?

He's a researcher, so he's clued up on how attributes work. I also said the same thing:

3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

For balls at a certain height, Peter Crouch won't need to jump as he's tall enough, but Stuart Little will need to jump.

 

[Neotropolis]

4 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

virtually irrelevant, especially as Sweeper Keepers don't position themselves aggressively when the opponent is in possession. Not sure I've ever seen a keeper head the ball

Manuel Neuer is somewhat famed for that. Quite often does it for Bayern...

[westy8chimp]

10 minutes ago, Neotropolis said:

Manuel Neuer is somewhat famed for that. Quite often does it for Bayern...

Irl...not fm!

[Neotropolis]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Irl...not fm!

Need I say more?

[MagicHat]

The red dot is the starting spot, blue is how far he can jump sidewards, yellow is how far he can reach when he dives.

in a vertical leap, the game interprets that two players with an equal jumping reach will reach the same height regardless of their height. Fair enough. What i want to know is what stat determines how a GK gets from the Red dot to the Yellow line.

If two keepers can get from red dot to the blue lines distance in the same time they would have similar attributes BUT the taller keeper would reach further across. In the same way that two people with a 2ft vertical leap, the one who could reach higher with his hands would have a better "aerial ability" stat.

[MagicHat]

8 hours ago, swansongs said:

Height is used by the match engine, though. It determines the size of the little men in the graphics, and influences their decision making of how they approach the ball (head it, chest it, knee it, kick it, do I need to jump?)

Jumping Reach only applies to a small number of issues regarding height, it isn't a total replacement.

This is what im getting at, in the match engine you can see the difference in size of a 6ft player and a 6ft6 player. For them to both save a shot in the same place, the 6 ft player would require better attributes wouldnt he? YET you could have a 6ft GK and 6ft6 GK with similar stats, would that mean the taller one can reach further and save harder shots?

[swansongs]

8 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

This is what im getting at, in the match engine you can see the difference in size of a 6ft player and a 6ft6 player. For them to both save a shot in the same place, the 6 ft player would require better attributes wouldnt he? YET you could have a 6ft GK and 6ft6 GK with similar stats, would that mean the taller one can reach further and save harder shots?

I don't know the actual calculations involved but when you're talking about saves where a goalkeeper's reflexes, agility and reach are coming into play then you have to assume a nearer starting position is going to be a help.

In one of ones "making yourself big" gives you the best chance of making a save.

With the same attributes I would assume that both keepers can reach the same distances overall but there would still be advantages. They would get there quicker for not having to move as far.

[westy8chimp]

I think there is a case of overcomplicating it here... what about pivotal science.

If the GK with longer arms saves a powerful shot with an outstretched arm... the distance from his core strength (shoulder/body) is further, so is a powerful shot more likely to go in as he can't get as much strength behind his hand as a GK with shorter arms?

More chance of injury in the same situation too ...

[Enos]

Nobody is talking about wingspan either.  You can be tall with shorter arms and narrow shoulders or short with long arms and broad shoulders.  It's an important factor that basketball people use.  I assume it's taken into consideration by GK coaches too.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

On 06/09/2018 at 09:00, MagicHat said:

Imagine GK A can dive a maximum of 2 feet to the side in 0.5 of a second

Imagine GK B can dive a maximum of 2 feet to the side in 0.5 of a second

GK A is 6ft 6 and gk B is 6ft

GK A would be closer to the goal post than GK B.

For them both to dive to the side the same distance in the same time they would have the same attributes but the taller keeper would cover a bigger area? Which would in turn mean it's easier for him to save shots that are closer to the goal posts.

If they both could reach the exact same place in the same time, the shorter GK would need to be able to dive further in the same time, which would require him to have better attributes than the taller one.

That's not generally how the attributes work in FM, the attributes for Keepers more about where the hands end up rather than how far your feet travel - so if two keepers had exactly the same attributes but different heights then they would both reach the ball at the same time, it's just that the shorter Keeper would have a better spring in his dive to have the same reach as the taller keeper (or the taller keeper isn't as springy but he doesn't need to be because his height makes up for it) - The attributes care about the end result rather than the journey.

On 06/09/2018 at 14:46, Cal585 said:

Wait, Jumping Reach is irrelevant compared to Aerial Ability? I thought it was one of the important GK stats...

Jumping isn't listed in game as a required attribute for GK's, though having a quick look in my game for regens at least Aerial Ability looks tied to Jumping anyway so GK's who can jump should have high Aerial Ability anyway.