Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[04texag]

2 hours ago, joeyodonnell said:

Hey Ozil, Just a quick Q in relation to how you've changed and adopted your philosophies over time. 

If you think back to your early saves - IIRC - you were quite ardent on the fact that there should only be one playmaker, and when using Very Fluid there should be quite a limited number of these 'specalized roles'. Now if we take a look at your systems you're operating with multiple playmakers (*gasps*) and numerous specalized positions.

Curious the reasons behind your shift .. Was it just a matter of experimentation and loosening ones rules? Thanks :  D 

 

I too am curious about this. Good catch and question.

[denen123]

On 07/07/2020 at 18:19, joeyodonnell said:

Hey Ozil, Just a quick Q in relation to how you've changed and adopted your philosophies over time. 

If you think back to your early saves - IIRC - you were quite ardent on the fact that there should only be one playmaker, and when using Very Fluid there should be quite a limited number of these 'specalized roles'. Now if we take a look at your systems you're operating with multiple playmakers (*gasps*) and numerous specalized positions.

Curious the reasons behind your shift .. Was it just a matter of experimentation and loosening ones rules? Thanks :  D 

 

Oh, i think he addressed this in his old Barca Very Fluid thread. He paired APM(a) + Dlp(s) on the same place & got questioned. He said he got idea shift(if i can remember).

It'll be nice if he clarified it, again, though. He's used 2 playmakers in his old Invicibles Arsenal, too.

[Zemahh]

I don't think using multiple playmakers is inherently wrong, if your aim is to keep a lot of possession. While I would definitely not use more than one in fast, counter-attacking systems, in which case you don't want multiple ball-magnets slowing the play down, I can see DLP and AP working together just fine in Tiki-taka tactics. They'll both make themselves available for the ball in different areas, one looking to bring balls out of defence and other looking to play between opposition midfield and defence.

That said, I wouldn't use more than two though. Using three or more, you might have to start asking yourself who are they actually creating for. If everyone's a playmaker, no one's a playmaker. 

[joeyodonnell]

15 hours ago, denen123 said:

Oh, i think he addressed this in his old Barca Very Fluid thread. He paired APM(a) + Dlp(s) on the same place & got questioned. He said he got idea shift(if i can remember).

It'll be nice if he clarified it, again, though. He's used 2 playmakers in his old Invicibles Arsenal, too.

Good shout, had forgotten about his use of Messi and Iniesta in the Barca thread. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 07/07/2020 at 18:19, joeyodonnell said:

Hey Ozil, Just a quick Q in relation to how you've changed and adopted your philosophies over time. 

If you think back to your early saves - IIRC - you were quite ardent on the fact that there should only be one playmaker, and when using Very Fluid there should be quite a limited number of these 'specalized roles'. Now if we take a look at your systems you're operating with multiple playmakers (*gasps*) and numerous specalized positions.

Curious the reasons behind your shift .. Was it just a matter of experimentation and loosening ones rules? Thanks :  D 

 

Excellent question. Thank you very much 

Ultimately, it's simply a question of accommodating two world-class playmakers once Vitor Costa came through.

If you look at the earlier versions of the 4-3-3, the midfield basically completed three functions:

• Linking midfield to defence.
  • Initially Florentino Luis sitting ahead of the defence as a DM with a Defend role.
• A 'heartbeat' of the possession system.
  • Tiago Dantas as the playmaker, averaging 100+ passes per game when playing in a highly structured system.
• Linking midfield to attack.
  • Xadas in a more expansive Mezzala role linking to the attack.

This is basically the Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta prototype and allowed each player to play to their strengths and within their capability, particularly whilst developing.

The combination of a personal preference to have my playmaker as my deepest midfielder, and Tiago Dantas developing his anticipation, concentration and positioning to a point where he was capable of being both the playmaker and the holding player, meant he switched with Florentino Luis moving into the MC role creating another passing option ahead.

Florentino Luis was dominant in the box-to-box midfield role - as seen in the Total Football thread - but the emergence of Vitor Costa meant I had to either replace one of my midfield, play an alternative formation or sell one of the best young players we had produced.

Florentino Luis was my least technically gifted midfielder, but also one of our most important players for giving defensive solidity and balance to the side.

Coincidentally, I hadn't quite settled on a left-sided defensive partner for Alex Pinto with Victor, Tralhao and Guimaraes close but not perfect. Meanwhile, Florentino Luis had previously trained and played in almost all defensive positions.

Dropping Florentino Luis into defence alongside Alex Pinto improved our build-up play considerably without sacrificing too much in defence; we defend so high up and dominate aggressively so it really suited him.

This opened a midfield spot for the considerably more creative Vitor Costa. I experimented a bit:

• Box-to-Box just didn't suit his skill set
• Mezzala made him too similar to Xadas and risked isolating Dantas.
• Deep-lying playmaker (Support) bunched up the midfield a bit.

The Advanced Playmaker is actually not as attacking as people think; it sits in the hole between opposition midfield and defence, doesn't actually roam or get forward more, and can hold position.

This created a nice link between Dantas and Xadas and resulted in some really nice attacking play.

The increased game-time accelerated Costa's development into an almost prototype of what we have been trying to develop.

 

As his positioning, anticipation and concentration improved, playing him and Dantas in a 2-man midfield became more of an option.

In a 2-man midfield I ask the AP(S) to Hold Position which basically creates a Dantas-Costa double playmaking pivot and frees the other midfielder to be more aggressive, which really suits Leão.

In the vast majority of cases I would go for one - or even zero - playmakers, but in this case their combined quality meant I felt that two could work, and it has. Zemanh hit the nail on the head with this:
 

On 09/07/2020 at 07:55, Zemahh said:

Using three or more, you might have to start asking yourself who are they actually creating for. If everyone's a playmaker, no one's a playmaker. 

This shares the playmaking responsibility between Dantas and Costa; it always annoys me that the Advanced Playmaker is prioritised over the Deeplying Playmaker, who has more time, space and passing options, but it's not as pronounced as it was in earlier versions (or just other tactical set ups, maybe).

It means Leão has two playmakers directly behind him which makes him so involved in the game, getting significantly more touches than others in the attack. This has massively improved his output for goals, assists and key passes.

This is nowhere near the end of the season by the way. Time permitting there should be another update to follow soon 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[04texag]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Fantastic as always. A question. I'm a few years into a save getting Portsmouth all the way up in England. This is our first year in PL and guys are adapting really well to my 4141 (4123) total football tactic. But now we are small fish in the big pond. How would you adjust in such a circumstance to hopefully stay up and keep developing the young talent?

I was thinking of shifting the tactic to a cautious/balanced flat 4141, sitting a little deeper and allowing a little more counter attacking. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

19 hours ago, 04texag said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Fantastic as always. A question. I'm a few years into a save getting Portsmouth all the way up in England. This is our first year in PL and guys are adapting really well to my 4141 (4123) total football tactic. But now we are small fish in the big pond. How would you adjust in such a circumstance to hopefully stay up and keep developing the young talent?

I was thinking of shifting the tactic to a cautious/balanced flat 4141, sitting a little deeper and allowing a little more counter attacking. 

Honestly, there are probably lots of better qualified people to be talking about a newly promoted side  If you look at most of my threads I typically go for one of the top clubs and try to take them to that absolute elite level.

Whenever playing a weaker side, I always like the 3-5-2 as I think it balances out a lot of weaknesses.

Most recently I used it with Arsenal's famously flawed squad to balance out weaknesses in Ozil's pressing and David Luiz's.. everything 

Still - obviously.. /hopefully  - a million miles away from a newly promoted squad.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Leão is on absolute fire.

Against Man Utd in the first knockout round:

 

Then Barcelona in the QF:
 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Embalo also having his best ever season, hitting this stunner in the Semi-Final against Liverpool.

[Tcufrog]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Excellent thread, I'm learning a ton about player development from you as I try to implement total football with my 1860 Munich side in 2033. I've won the league 5 times in a row now but always struggle in the knockout stages of the CL.

Question for you and the board, I have some players with great attributes for the F9 role, but they've been unable to learn "comes deep to get ball."  From what I've read, this may be a dealbreaker on FM (regardless of FM18 or FM20).  Is there an alternative role to play these guys in as a single striker in a 4-1-2-3?

With the F9 having only a balanced mentality and the two IF/IW's having a positive or attacking mentality, I'm hoping that can keep the striker closer to midfield in general behind the two wingers who look to be the primary goalscorers.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Tcufrog

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Excellent thread, I'm learning a ton about player development from you as I try to implement total football with my 1860 Munich side in 2033. I've won the league 5 times in a row now but always struggle in the knockout stages of the CL.

Question for you and the board, I have some players with great attributes for the F9 role, but they've been unable to learn "comes deep to get ball."  From what I've read, this may be a dealbreaker on FM (regardless of FM18 or FM20).  Is there an alternative role to play these guys in as a single striker in a 4-1-2-3?

With the F9 having only a balanced mentality and the two IF/IW's having a positive or attacking mentality, I'm hoping that can keep the striker closer to midfield in general behind the two wingers who look to be the primary goalscorers.

I wouldn't be too worried about the trait, until I see a problem in the match engine.

Off the top of my head, I've enjoyed great success with players like Cavani, Giroud or Lacazette in the link-up striker role without having that trait. They do play differently to the way I have shown João Felix play in recent saves, but can be equally effective. Ultimately it depends on the attributes of the player.

João Felix typically drops deep and roams from position, creating an overload in midfield and potentially drawing out opposition defenders. Whereas Cavani in particular was more advanced, typically "pinned" the opposition central defenders and held up the ball for the onrushing Neymar and Mbappe.

Similar roles include Complete Forward (Support) and Deep-lying Forward (Support). The differences are essentially roaming and holding up the ball.

• False 9 roams but does not hold up the ball.
  • Anecdotally I have always felt there may be more movement "hard-coded" into the False 9 role. I have no evidence for this other than a noticeably wider range of movement but could be coincidence.
• Complete Forward roams and holds up the ball.
• Deeplying Forward doesn't roam but does hold up the ball.

Target Man can be similar but you'll notice he attracts more direct balls and crosses.

[Tcufrog]

57 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I wouldn't be too worried about the trait, until I see a problem in the match engine.

Off the top of my head, I've enjoyed great success with players like Cavani, Giroud or Lacazette in the link-up striker role without having that trait. They do play differently to the way I have shown João Felix play in recent saves, but can be equally effective. Ultimately it depends on the attributes of the player.

João Felix typically drops deep and roams from position, creating an overload in midfield and potentially drawing out opposition defenders. Whereas Cavani in particular was more advanced, typically "pinned" the opposition central defenders and held up the ball for the onrushing Neymar and Mbappe.

Similar roles include Complete Forward (Support) and Deep-lying Forward (Support). The differences are essentially roaming and holding up the ball.

• False 9 roams but does not hold up the ball.
  • Anecdotally I have always felt there may be more movement "hard-coded" into the False 9 role. I have no evidence for this other than a noticeably wider range of movement but could be coincidence.
• Complete Forward roams and holds up the ball.
• Deeplying Forward doesn't roam but does hold up the ball.

Target Man can be similar but you'll notice he attracts more direct balls and crosses.

This is great info, thank you for pointing out the differences between F9, CF-S, and DLF-S. 

I'm currently trying to build my squad to prepare for the new season, and want to play my 4-1-2-3 with two IF-S that sit narrow and get further forward to score goals.  I have great players for this option.  With your experience with Cavani, Giroud, and lacazette as CF-S/DLF-S, do you find that they contribute as much as Joao Felix as a F9?  The only option I can think of where a CF-S/DLF-S would be beneficial with this formation and style is if the opponent has a DM that is neutralizing my F9 from linking up with midfield.

I've attached the three main players I'm considering for the Striker role.  I like Rodriguinho as my F-9 and am open to ideas for how to use Agudelo and Salles.

The last picture is the stud from Dortmund I plan on signing - really excited about him in a total football attack!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

This is great info, thank you for pointing out the differences between F9, CF-S, and DLF-S. 

I'm currently trying to build my squad to prepare for the new season, and want to play my 4-1-2-3 with two IF-S that sit narrow and get further forward to score goals.  I have great players for this option.  With your experience with Cavani, Giroud, and lacazette as CF-S/DLF-S, do you find that they contribute as much as Joao Felix as a F9?  The only option I can think of where a CF-S/DLF-S would be beneficial with this formation and style is if the opponent has a DM that is neutralizing my F9 from linking up with midfield.

I've attached the three main players I'm considering for the Striker role.  I like Rodriguinho as my F-9 and am open to ideas for how to use Agudelo and Salles.

The last picture is the stud from Dortmund I plan on signing - really excited about him in a total football attack!

Yea, that's going to work out to be a pretty nice attack!

Personally I'd play all four. If you invert this, so the Inverted Winger is on the right and the Inside Forward is on the left, they fit.

MR: IW(S) Salles (he's going to be an electric creative player)
AMC: AM(S) Mauer
AML: IF(S) Agudelo
STC: F9 Rodriginho

Mauer looks like a world class talent. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tearing up the record books.

Shore up the rest of the side and you've got yourself a very solid team there 

[Tcufrog]

5 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, that's going to work out to be a pretty nice attack!

Personally I'd play all four. If you invert this, so the Inverted Winger is on the right and the Inside Forward is on the left, they fit.

MR: IW(S) Salles (he's going to be an electric creative player)
AMC: AM(S) Mauer
AML: IF(S) Agudelo
STC: F9 Rodriginho

Mauer looks like a world class talent. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tearing up the record books.

Shore up the rest of the side and you've got yourself a very solid team there 

Good advice, I was set on a 4-1-2-3 but I can explore a 4-2-3-1... I'll share what I end up with.  Thanks again!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

53 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Good advice, I was set on a 4-1-2-3 but I can explore a 4-2-3-1... I'll share what I end up with.  Thanks again!

The reason I suggest 4-2-3-1 - or pretty much 4-2-4 - is that both of your creative players (Salles and Agudelo) are right footed so one can cut inside from the left but really the other is going to be less effective.

Another suggestion would be Salles on the right side of a midfield 3 as a Mezala and retraining Mauer to cut in off the left. This is the more reserved option as the first demands quite a bit of your midfield 2.

I'd actually set up both and play them out for a bit. Either way, great side 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Tcufrog]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The reason I suggest 4-2-3-1 - or pretty much 4-2-4 - is that both of your creative players (Salles and Agudelo) are right footed so one can cut inside from the left but really the other is going to be less effective.

Another suggestion would be Salles on the right side of a midfield 3 as a Mezala and retraining Mauer to cut in off the left. This is the more reserved option as the first demands quite a bit of your midfield 2.

I'd actually set up both and play them out for a bit. Either way, great side 

Great suggestions, I'll have to try it out!  These are the two formations I'm starting with - see next post (Mauer excluded since I don't have him yet...).  I have a loaded midfield but here are the top three in my 4-1-2-3.

Peeters is probably my favorite player, super versatile.  Not sure how to get the best out of him in a 4-2-3-1, feel like he'll be underutilized as a standard CM-S.

[Tcufrog]

[04texag]

you are quite stacked. Some of these newgens are ridiculous.

[Tcufrog]

23 minutes ago, 04texag said:

you are quite stacked. Some of these newgens are ridiculous.

Thanks! I spend a lot of time looking for the cream of the crop newgens to get into my academy asap

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Season 2023/24 Update

Not a huge amount to say now, tactically. This is really years of preparation and development falling into place.
 

The major update was the shift towards the 4-2-4 in order to accommodate Leão centrally, which freed up Xadas for a big money January move.

Domestically, the league simply couldn't contain the added attacking dynamic.

Smashing our own goalscoring record, by a whopping 27 goals..

João Felix continued to lead the attack, with Umaro Embalo and Leão recording their best ever seasons.

With Leão and Jota combining to create an electric creative force.

In Europe

Faced a couple of pretty good sides this season, but we're really a long way ahead at the moment.

Leão has been in excellent form, scoring this one against Manchester United..

..and then opening up Barcelona with this pass in the quarter final.

Apologies again to PSG fans.. 

I feel like I have said everything that is to be said about this side tactically now and not wanting to be repetitive so I won't go into much detail but here's another cracker from Leão..

 

On to the Euro's.. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Euro 2024
 

The machine rolled on through the European Championships, using mainly 4-3-3 but also 4-2-4.

 

 

Again, not much to say now tactically. Business as usual.

That's now every trophy available won. Unsure what direction to take the save at the moment, as I am not entirely sure how to improve from here. Nice problem to have 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[MadOnion]

17 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Smashing our own goalscoring record, by a whopping 27 goals..

João Felix continued to lead the attack, with Umaro Embalo and Leão recording their best ever seasons.

With Leão and Jota combining to create an electric creative force.

I'm baffled at these numbers. Particularly João Felix as a F9 with a lower mentality (comparatively speaking with the other guys). I know he's a special player, but how is that possible?
I know at this point the Portuguese league is a walk in the park but isn't easy to pull off such numbers. I need to read this thread again starting from the "What did I learn" section.
Out of curiosity, do you not fancy a one-off save with Barça (FM18 is fine) and try to break Messi's own record of 91 goals in a calendar year, obviously as a F9? Maybe that can be possible with Felix too.

I don't like to blame the ME or the Tactical creator but I don't think I've seen such numbers in FM20/19, even with the so called exploit tactics. Massive congrats @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

By the way, that 424 isn't far from the IRL Benfica and with Jorge Jesus coming back the 442/424 is here to stay.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

59 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

I'm baffled at these numbers. Particularly João Felix as a F9 with a lower mentality (comparatively speaking with the other guys). I know he's a special player, but how is that possible?
I know at this point the Portuguese league is a walk in the park but isn't easy to pull off such numbers. I need to read this thread again starting from the "What did I learn" section.
Out of curiosity, do you not fancy a one-off save with Barça (FM18 is fine) and try to break Messi's own record of 91 goals in a calendar year, obviously as a F9? Maybe that can be possible with Felix too.

I don't like to blame the ME or the Tactical creator but I don't think I've seen such numbers in FM20/19, even with the so called exploit tactics. Massive congrats @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

By the way, that 424 isn't far from the IRL Benfica and with Jorge Jesus coming back the 442/424 is here to stay.

Same here. I have never had a side playing consistently at this level before.

There are a couple of factors at play:

1. Quality of players
   • The core of the squad has been together for 6 years.
   • Trained specifically for this style of play at the best facilities in the world.
   • Depth of the squad - first and second choice for each position are pretty much the best in their position in the league.
2. Tactics
   • The collective overload is simply relentless.
   • The 4-4-2/4-2-4 is an extremely strong press and attacking shape.
   • We have an entire team capable of playing at an extremely high intensity on and off the ball.
3. Opposition
   • Right now, even in Europe, nobody is particularly close.
   • Domestically the gap is stratospheric. Sporting are probably closest and I am not sure would get a player in the squad. Maybe Braganca. Neither Sporting or Porto have really developed the players they had available.

Goals in a calendar year is interesting  João Felix has been absolutely lethal but I actually Leão might be close to overtaking him. He is still only 18 years old, and he's showing glimpses of being at another level. 

[MadOnion]

I don't remember the quality of newgens on FM18, but on FM19/20 teams are generally stacked with world class players, particularly physical specimens. They're easy to find too.

My Benfica side (FM20 in 2027) is as good as yours (I'd like to believe so anyway ) and I have a couple of players that can definitely play the F9 role. I know a team is only as good as the sum of its parts, including the manager. I'm no @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and that makes a huge difference 

Domestically: There's a gap but not a massive one. I do face a lot of 4222DM in Portugal, which means I have to micromanage at times in order to get wins, regardless it's a walk in the park (generally speaking)

In Europe: The challenge is greater (Top teams are stacked), buying players for +£100M is the norm. I've won the CL once in 7 years (and that was after a crash dump where I had to replay a semi-final). Some players like Jota/Embalo reached the plateau early and I had to move them on. Jota is 20 by the time FM20 was released. Hardly a wonderkid.

It's possible that from an attribute point of view, there are better players than yours in your save, but I suppose you just have a team that clicks and knowing exactly how you want your players to perform plus a great degree of the ME makes the difference (who would've thought ).

Potential False 9s

Lei - I'd like to believe he's is as good as Felix. Intelligent, two-footed, excellent flair and decent finishing/off-the-ball.

Caca - Great Potential, in the same mould as Lei, but a little behind in football intelligence.

Grilo is an out-an-out striker. As intelligent as Lei, but a better finisher.

I do have other players (for other positions) but don't want to hijack the thread with needless screenshots. In isolation, how would you play both Lei and Grilo?
Haven't given up but a frustrating save nonetheless. Dantas, at the age of 26, just had his best season yet, I mean he just gets better and better and that's what keeps me going.

Edited July 20, 2020 by MadOnion

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 hours ago, MadOnion said:

My Benfica side (FM20 in 2027) is as good as yours (I'd like to believe so anyway ) and I have a couple of players that can definitely play the F9 role. I know a team is only as good as the sum of its parts, including the manager. I'm no @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and that makes a huge difference 

In terms of raw ability, my squad is good but inherently achievable. If you look at them at international level, they're mostly 3-4 stars ability.

This would be in comparison to Mbappe, who is the best player at the European Championship in terms of ability.

I think we are just extremely well honed to play a style of football, which is particularly effective. Particularly players like Pedro Rodrigues, Luis Pinheiro, Goncalo Oliveira would actually be relatively pretty low in terms of raw ability but their attributes are distributed near perfectly having been trained at the club for years and years.

Re Grillo: have you thought about using him cutting in from the AMR position?

[MadOnion]

Grilo made some noises and ended up leaving for £100M.
I'm not happy with that but one of his negatives traits was "Doesn't feel comfortable playing in big matches" and a "fairly consistent performer". That was definitely seen in certain games.

Sampson came in as his replacement

I already have Harvey Elliot which suits the AMR - cutting in role

I'm thinking Sampson as AML, Elliot AMR and Lei F9, though I'm sure those 3 can play any roles across the front. The supporting cast is as good.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Wow, yea. I see what you mean about the newgens in the more recent game.

I've just spent an hour or so messing around with the FM2020 tactics creator but just gave up out of frustration after failing to find a combination I was remotely happy with.

Either my interpretation of the mentality labels is well off or the "Very Attacking" is far less aggressive than Overload, in old terms. Trying to set up a collective overload gave me mostly "positive" and even balanced mentalities which would have been 15-17 in my version.

I had to use lower team mentality and more aggressive duties to get players into the Attacking mentalities, but then I lost all compactness within the squad and my defensive players were far less expansive.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[MadOnion]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Wow, yea. I see what you mean about the newgens in the more recent game.

The new "newgens" coupled with proper training and mentoring can also be exploitable 
Though Sampson and Lei as beasts there are better players riding the bench of the likes of PSG/Manchester United/Barcelona/Madrid.
It's easy to assemble a team of Monsters á la Space Jam but that takes away the fun in my opinion (I'm a bit stingy as well, currently  with almost £1bn in the bank).
 

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I've just spent an hour or so messing around with the FM2020 tactics creator but just gave up out of frustration after failing to find a combination I was remotely happy with.

Either my interpretation of the mentality labels is well off or the "Very Attacking" is far less aggressive than Overload, in old terms. Trying to set up a collective overload gave me mostly "positive" and even balanced mentalities which would have been 15-17 in my version.

I had to use lower team mentality and more aggressive duties to get players into the Attacking mentalities, but then I lost all compactness within the squad and my defensive players were far less expansive.

You can achieve compactness on flanks on Very Attacking (Overload) if you play with IF's on support and CWB-s with overlap set; both will have attacking mentality (whatever that means in numbers).

The rest of team sadly will be on Positive/Balance, unless you "play through the middle" (I wonder if a DLP-S with an Attacking mentality is fun to watch )
To be honest, in order to achieve a 2-3-5, the above works quite well which isn't too bad. The midfield 3 sits/recycles with the odd shot from outside the area.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, MadOnion said:

The new "newgens" coupled with proper training and mentoring can also be exploitable 
Though Sampson and Lei as beasts there are better players riding the bench of the likes of PSG/Manchester United/Barcelona/Madrid.
It's easy to assemble a team of Monsters á la Space Jam but that takes away the fun in my opinion (I'm a bit stingy as well, currently  with almost £1bn in the bank).
 

You can achieve compactness on flanks on Very Attacking (Overload) if you play with IF's on support and CWB-s with overlap set; both will have attacking mentality (whatever that means in numbers).

The rest of team sadly will be on Positive/Balance, unless you "play through the middle" (I wonder if a DLP-S with an Attacking mentality is fun to watch )
To be honest, in order to achieve a 2-3-5, the above works quite well which isn't too bad. The midfield 3 sits/recycles with the odd shot from outside the area.

I'm totally lost with it at the moment 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2024/25 Pre-Season

Another pretty quiet summer. Operating in another dead post-Brexit apocalyptic transfer window, the main agenda was selling a few of the peripheral squad players to make room for another crop of youngsters.

The saddest departure was certainly Pedro Rodrigues, who has been such a wonderful servant to the club, to Arsenal for £32m. I was hoping for a better move for Vinicius Junior, he's really ready to be the main man at one of the big European clubs, but there was really only interest from Monaco who have fallen just a little bit behind. Thiago Almada couldn't even attract a sensible bid, so he's gone out on loan with an intention to sell next summer.

Biggest news was blockbuster new contracts for all the star players at £250,000 p/w. It's a set-back against my goal of becoming a self-sustainable club as we are going to need to rely on transfer revenue for the foreseeable future, but the team is now stable, winning everything, and filling an 80,000 capacity stadium.

Following Euro 2024 and the Olympics, we had a short pre-season tour of China and have continued as we left off in the league.

At the moment, I'm not anticipating a great amount of change tactically.

Lots of new faces promoted after a successful period with Benfica B or being loaned out.

Benfica B also have a new crop, some of which have potential to contend for the first team in future years.

Academy is ticking over. Doesn't need to be spectacular at this point. Lisboa looks like a real talent.

[crusadertsar]

You went back to FM18 ? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

33 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You went back to FM18 ? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Great video, basically summing up the way we have been using Jota for the past few years..

 

 

[axelmuller]

Could the classic Very Fluid 433 work with this set of players? Seeing that Leão can play MC position as well.

Also nice detail that Leão and Elvis are these days known as Leão and Elvis instead of their full names. Just like in real life

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, axelmuller said:

Could the classic Very Fluid 433 work with this set of players? Seeing that Leão can play MC position as well.

Also nice detail that Leão and Elvis are these days known as Leão and Elvis instead of their full names. Just like in real life

Potentially.

Leão is pretty versatile. He can play midfield, cutting in off the right, in the attacking midfield role he's playing right now or potentially up front.

I have experimented with each but am happiest with the results where he is right now.

• Midfield doesn't quite get the most out of his dribbling, movement and finishing (he contributed 34 goals from Attacking Midfield last season)
• Inside Forward means a) that he's wide rather than central and b) selling either Embalo or Jota.
  • Selling Xadas was hard, but he's a little bit older, there was lots of interest and he was one really pushing and pushing for the massive contracts.
• He's not got quite enough Team Work to be an effective False 9; he's more direct.

Tiago Valentim may be the one to force a move back to the 4-3-3 though, as he's becoming too good not to play.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Trying - and failing  - to build a self-sustaining Football Club

I think I may be losing sight for my objective of building an elite self-sustaining football club.

The snapshot above is taken at the close of the 2024/25 season - before any prize money, taxes and transfer activity - and as you can see, we are now running at a massive loss and will need transfer revenue in order to continue to meet the Financial Fair Play regulations.

The big cost is clearly wages.
 

We had a number of years where using players developed from the academy kept our wage bill down where we nearly broke even or ran at a small loss, but we now seem to be outstripping any revenue we can generate without the use of transfers.

We are still following a wage structure:

• We don't have any Key Players; everyone is considered to be first team and are paid similarly.
• We aim to pay fairly with wages relative to the top clubs around Europe to incentivise and reward their loyalty.
  • We pay the established first team players £250k per week (in comparison, Trincão earns £325k and Xadas £300k at Barcelona, Vinicius £275k at Monaco)
  • Dantas gets £300k per week as captain.
  • These contracts take everyone into mid/late-20s at which point I would expect to have to sell.
• Leão and Juan Manuel Fernandez are paid about £100k but are expected to rise now they are established in the first team.
• The remainder of the squad are on wages relative to the Portuguese league.

This is also based on averaging 78,000 attendance in an 80,000 seater stadium and doing summer tours to US, Canada, China, Japan etc each year hoping to generate other revenue.

Anyone any good with finances? Or can point me in the direction of any good advice? Am I right to be concerned, or is it simply expected that we need to rely on transfer revenue and prize money at this level?

Just thinking out loud at this point really.

[04texag]

Not sure but tours might be costing you money, but helping sell jerseys. 

 

Try doing a preseason league, playing three back to back games at home against power teams. This can bring in 2-3 million if you draw big attendance, which the right teams will do.

 

Other than that, wages. Also, loan out youngsters and charge for their services

[skyline72]

You can save a lot with their contracts by taking out their appearance fee and unused sub fee. 

[MadOnion]

Your only solution is to win the Champions league as often as possible and hope the board liquidates some of the bank loans. You should still be in red, but the bank balance should be healthy. I've got around £700M, and only won the CL once. I'm in 2027.

The TV deal does help, but only if the league reputation increases. If Sporting, Porto and Braga (to an extent) aren't doing as well in Europe, I'm afraid the league will be around 5-7th.

Regarding salaries, in real life, the top earner will be lucky to get £200k a month, let alone per week, so that's something to bear in mind.

When it's time to renew salaries, I give them as low as possible, with no bonus, but a big yearly rise (20-30%) with the option to extend the contract by a couple years. That means their tied with the club for like 6-8years.

Each year they will complain about their low salaries, but I tell them they have a lot of years left on their contract. They will moan, but with their professional personality, eventually they keep quiet.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, MadOnion said:

Your only solution is to win the Champions league as often as possible and hope the board liquidates some of the bank loans. You should still be in red, but the bank balance should be healthy. I've got around £700M, and only won the CL once. I'm in 2027.

The TV deal does help, but only if the league reputation increases. If Sporting, Porto and Braga (to an extent) aren't doing as well in Europe, I'm afraid the league will be around 5-7th.

Regarding salaries, in real life, the top earner will be lucky to get £200k a month, let alone per week, so that's something to bear in mind.

When it's time to renew salaries, I give them as low as possible, with no bonus, but a big yearly rise (20-30%) with the option to extend the contract by a couple years. That means their tied with the club for like 6-8years.

Each year they will complain about their low salaries, but I tell them they have a lot of years left on their contract. They will moan, but with their professional personality, eventually they keep quiet.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I am going to play through the rest of May and think about the pre-season later tonight and see where that leaves me.

It's the TV deal, sponsorship, and merchandising revenue I've been disappointed with in terms of revenue. Monthly income hasn't increased much at all, despite being so dominant for nearly a decade and - what I should imagine - would be an extremely marketable 'golden generation'.

I do think I could have negotiated harder, but I wanted to avoid having another round of renegotiation. Each time I need to renegotiate salaries, players ask for 2-3x salary increases, plus agent fees and loyalty bonuses. Not to mention the risk to the squad of failing to reach an agreement.

My concern was that offering £150-200k would keep them happy for a year or so, but at the current rate they're winning trophies that'd be well below market rate and they'd ask for £300-400k+ in a negotiation starting from, say £150k.

At £250k per week, and with a professional group of players we have so far (more than a year) warded off all talk of renegotiation and am also getting far fewer transfer bids as clubs would have to pay £400-500k+ to attract anyone.

Having thought about it over the past few days, my conclusion is to face the problem a little bit differently; considering that we have an absolute golden generation of talent and that it'd be just about impossible for any club to maintain their wages sustainably so accept that we are going to run at a loss, but that the success that they bring - prize money, 80,000 seater stadium, global reputation etc. should set the club up for life.

The core of the original squad are 24-26 years old, with contracts running another 4-years.

At 28-30 years old, another big contract at this level may be a step too far which means we should be looking to sell - and, in the process, giving the golden generation a chance to play in the major leagues across Europe - 2 seasons from now.

Depending on the transfer market, they will be worth the best part of £1bn transfer revenue and we can replace them from the academy which is when the club becomes incredibly sustainable. At the moment, I think we have good prospects in the academy, but not enough to maintain this level so it is time to step that up a gear (and we just had a rubbish intake).

[Hattis]

Hi Ozil. Long time reader and admirer of your threads. Playing with Rennes I got this unique regen that seems to me like a perfect "total" footballer. I would be very intrigued to hear your thoughts on how he could fit in your system or if he even would fit in. Switched to Arsenal and imediatly bought him in for a big money move. Sorry for bad english :).

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

18 minutes ago, Hattis said:

Hi Ozil. Long time reader and admirer of your threads. Playing with Rennes I got this unique regen that seems to me like a perfect "total" footballer. I would be very intrigued to hear your thoughts on how he could fit in your system or if he even would fit in. Switched to Arsenal and imediatly bought him in for a big money move. Sorry for bad english :).

Thank you for the kind words and wow, what a player! 

With Positioning of 17, Anticipation 18, Decisions 18 and Team Work 19 I would be using him in any of the roles you have seen be using Dantas in, mainly as a Deep Playmaker with as many passing options in front of him as possible.

He's pretty much a 1-man midfield so you have a huge number of options as to how you set up around him.

[Sparky_07]

Hi O-zil, before I go searching through this thread. Do you use Player Instructions and Opposition instructions for your 4123 Total Football. I've quickly skimmed the last few pages and think I may have missed them.

Cheers 

[Hattis]

36 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for the kind words and wow, what a player! 

With Positioning of 17, Anticipation 18, Decisions 18 and Team Work 19 I would be using him in any of the roles you have seen be using Dantas in, mainly as a Deep Playmaker with as many passing options in front of him as possible.

He's pretty much a 1-man midfield so you have a huge number of options as to how you set up around him.

Thanks for answering so quickly. Very interesting that you say you would use him in the Dantas role. I would have thought his average vision, dribling and playmaker physicals (agility and balance) would have put you off having him as your deepest playmaker. But I suppose there is a risk playing with a playmaker like Dantas who does not have the greatest defensive abilities as your deepest midfielder and having Luciani with 20 WR and good defensive stats probably negates that risk, but providing a little less in attack. I guess Luciani might be what Sarri wanted Kante to be under him at Chelsea, a workforce with a lot better techical abilities.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

30 minutes ago, Hattis said:

Thanks for answering so quickly. Very interesting that you say you would use him in the Dantas role. I would have thought his average vision, dribling and playmaker physicals (agility and balance) would have put you off having him as your deepest playmaker. But I suppose there is a risk playing with a playmaker like Dantas who does not have the greatest defensive abilities as your deepest midfielder and having Luciani with 20 WR and good defensive stats probably negates that risk, but providing a little less in attack. I guess Luciani might be what Sarri wanted Kante to be under him at Chelsea, a workforce with a lot better techical abilities.

You're welcome To me, I look mostly for technical and mental attributes. Dribbling is nice but not too important for the deeper playmaker.

If you had a much better option at for the playmaker, another option would be to retrain him as an Inverted Wingback. Looks like he'd be excellent there, but may be a bit of a waste if he is the best player in the team.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Hattis]

15 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You're welcome To me, I look mostly for technical and mental attributes. Dribbling is nice but not too important for the deeper playmaker.

If you had a much better option at for the playmaker, another option would be to retrain him as an Inverted Wingback. Looks like he'd be excellent there, but may be a bit of a waste if he is the best player in the team.

Yeah, perhaps that would be fitting later on as the team develops and a greater playmaker amerges. Sort of a Philip Lahm in a sense. Inteligent, hard worker, but not great physically. Intrigueing idea!

[04texag]

I've been getting slightly disenchanted with the deep lying playmaker lately, because they are so static. Yes they create a lot of chances but hardly any assists. I have been wanting more dynamic play higher up the pitch. I've been using a similar awesome newgen I got as an AP-s in the midfield and it's been pretty good so far. I get more through balls and not just long diagonals. 

[Zendahl]

2 hours ago, 04texag said:

I've been getting slightly disenchanted with the deep lying playmaker lately, because they are so static. Yes they create a lot of chances but hardly any assists. I have been wanting more dynamic play higher up the pitch. I've been using a similar awesome newgen I got as an AP-s in the midfield and it's been pretty good so far. I get more through balls and not just long diagonals. 

I mean thats the exact purpose of the DLP though, so its not too weird that happens when using it

[04texag]

Ya not saying anything about that, I'm saying that in my systems I'm wanting different play from my playmakers. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, 04texag said:

I've been getting slightly disenchanted with the deep lying playmaker lately, because they are so static. Yes they create a lot of chances but hardly any assists. I have been wanting more dynamic play higher up the pitch. I've been using a similar awesome newgen I got as an AP-s in the midfield and it's been pretty good so far. I get more through balls and not just long diagonals. 

Ultimately it depends what you want out of your playmaker. The deep playmaker is more about controlling a game, being available to take a pass and circulating possession with passing options ahead of him. Assists is a probably not the right metric to look at. Probably more the number of passes they make per 90, passing accuracy for him individually and the number of chances, goals and percentage of possession typically achieved as a team will tell you you're on the right track.

The advantage of the deep playmaker is that:

• One player is both the holding midfielder and the playmaker which frees up another midfielder to attack.
• Being deeper means that the passing options are ahead of him, giving you a nice progressive possession system.

If you want a more dynamic role, Mezzala and Advanced Playmaker are both good choices. In my experience, the Advanced Playmaker role does detract from the deep playmaker role, simply because having two playmakers means they individually have less focus, than if they were the only one.

Obviously if you play a more dynamic role, you then need to play a holding midfielder alongside but I assume you've thought of that. I did this for quite a while in earlier seasons with Florentino Luis in a deeper holding role and Dantas as a playmaker.

The role I am still really interested in is the Roaming Playmaker. I have used it a bit, but never reached it's full potential. That's potentially a hybrid between the two if you have the right player.