Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[04texag]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The lop-sided front 4 is really effective. When I do finally get the chance to write an update, it'll be focused on this. I actually did it once again inspired by the article on the Pele, punta de lanca role I have shared previously hence 'the 1970' but it's really ended up being it's own thing.

Yes, please do this! Thanks for all of your work @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Also, not sure if you saw my resurrection of your 3-4-3 with an adaptation for fm20, but it's working fairly well finally.

[zlatanera]

@ElJefe4 from my personal experience with Lyon (as one of those guys who "built some great sides" in the long run its not going to matter too much as your reserves play at such a low level. Up to age 18 (often 3 years given they come through young in France) you want them in the Under 19s as there is more training, then once they hit 18 they'll either be too good for the National 2 level anyway, so should either be loaned or given a pathway to the first team. 

Of course your Reserves manager will still select them anyway, so I ended up selecting a starting XI for the Under 19s to prevent my best prospects wasting time playing matches instead of training, but if you take control of arranging friendlies for the Reserves then there should be no fixtures anyway.

Similar to OP I don't really pay too much attention to the playing style of a manager. Right now in my Roma save Sinisa Mihajlovic - Direct, Balanced, More Urgent - is still in charge of Bologna who had 3 consecutive mid-table finishes. I loaned them a 19-year old forward, Eddy Salcedo, as a Key Player (which I was slightly dubious about) who hit 24 goals and they went up to 2nd (I also loaned them two centre backs, but still) whereas Vincenzo Montella at Sassuolo matches up more with myself stylistically, so I loaned him a young winger, Emanuel Vignato, for two seasons. First season he got game time despite his Rotation contract, but 2nd season they got in Riyad Mahrez in the winter and he barely played since and appears to actually have declined. Point is so many things can change, but I have generally found they will stick to the promised playing time. I generally go with my coaches' opinion of what a player's level should be, but would rather loan a young forward or centre back to a team chasing promotion from the 2nd tier than one predicted to go straight back down from the 1st. 

[ElJefe4]

7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Nice work 

A few have used Lyon earlier in the thread and built some great sides.

In response to your questions, yes, I would expect non-competitive football to have an impact on a young player's development, unfortunately. Particularly at 18 or over.

And, no. I don't really look at the style of play the club they go to plays. In an ideal world it would be nice to see players play as a club which suits them or plays a similar style of play, so I will go with any stand out options, of course, but I really don't lose any sleep over it. Ultimately if they're getting game time at as high a level as they can handle, I'm pretty happy.

There's definitely potential for something big if I can crack it. First XI has some weaknesses on paper but only a couple of points off PSG and beat Barca home and away in the Champions League. Thiago Mendes has just completed 185 passes in a game as well. 

Ah, that's a shame. I'll try to get the promising ones out on loan in January if possible so hopefully they only miss out on half a season of competitive football. 

And that's good to know, thanks for the answers!

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

@ElJefe4 from my personal experience with Lyon (as one of those guys who "built some great sides" in the long run its not going to matter too much as your reserves play at such a low level. Up to age 18 (often 3 years given they come through young in France) you want them in the Under 19s as there is more training, then once they hit 18 they'll either be too good for the National 2 level anyway, so should either be loaned or given a pathway to the first team. 

Of course your Reserves manager will still select them anyway, so I ended up selecting a starting XI for the Under 19s to prevent my best prospects wasting time playing matches instead of training, but if you take control of arranging friendlies for the Reserves then there should be no fixtures anyway.

Similar to OP I don't really pay too much attention to the playing style of a manager. Right now in my Roma save Sinisa Mihajlovic - Direct, Balanced, More Urgent - is still in charge of Bologna who had 3 consecutive mid-table finishes. I loaned them a 19-year old forward, Eddy Salcedo, as a Key Player (which I was slightly dubious about) who hit 24 goals and they went up to 2nd (I also loaned them two centre backs, but still) whereas Vincenzo Montella at Sassuolo matches up more with myself stylistically, so I loaned him a young winger, Emanuel Vignato, for two seasons. First season he got game time despite his Rotation contract, but 2nd season they got in Riyad Mahrez in the winter and he barely played since and appears to actually have declined. Point is so many things can change, but I have generally found they will stick to the promised playing time. I generally go with my coaches' opinion of what a player's level should be, but would rather loan a young forward or centre back to a team chasing promotion from the 2nd tier than one predicted to go straight back down from the 1st. 

That's stuff about the level the Reserve team plays at is really useful to know and makes a lot of sense when you put it like that. I'll definitely look to create a clear path from the u19s straight to the first team and use loans rather than the Reserves for those not quite at the required level by the time they hit 18. Thanks for sharing!

[Impacto]

On 27/07/2018 at 13:16, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

 

 

 

I just want to highlight this little gem that I've never tried before until today. Like most people here, I've tried most of Ö-zil to the Arsenal! tactics and enjoy playing and learning from them. Recently I've trying and trying different stuff, hoping to settle on a save that keeps me interested long term. Long story short, after reading the recently released Pirlo thesis a thought came into my head. I want to play a save where I create a total football legacy! Normally, when I play Total Football in it's many forms, I use fairly decent sides and end up dominating soon after. It's really fun, but it gets boring after a while. So I opted for something else. An FM 18 journeyman save where I go to the different teams and countries and I make them bask in the glory of Total Football. 

So, I booted up an old  save as I didn't want to start a new game for the milionth time. The year is 2028 and I found myself a new club - A mid table team, now finding itself in relegation battle in the top tier of Polish football - FC Cracovia. Turns out it's the oldest Polish club! 

Anyway, I wanted to make this team play beautiful, fluid football but ah... the players there can't really do that. Or so I thought. I remembered seeing this thread long ago and how Ozil was first introducing his style to Benfica. How he slowly turned the team into an absolute monster. I played around with a few tactics before I even pressed continue for the first time. The usual setup of Total Football requires really quality players to succeed. The 3-4-3 Diamond is the same. So I came back to this thread and adapted the tactic shown above to my team. Changed a few things, but not much. My little brain can't create stuff like this on it's own, so I'm really happy that this thread exists! 

I did not expect this to play so damn well! It's brilliant as always from Ozil. I was lucky that the team was full of good attacking midfielders, capable of playing in the CM strata and having good technique, shots, passing and dribble(mostly 11s and 12s). I also had a perfect player able to perform the DLP duties. My striker was decent as well, very similar in style of play to Jimenez - fairly strong and fast, with a decent finish, but not exceptional. I even had perfectly set up players for the wings. I guess it was destiny...   

I played 6 games today - 5 wins, 1 loss where we dominated so hard, 29 shots in the end for 10 for the opponent.  The team hadn't even learned the tactic yet and we started winning games. Team was 3rd from the bottom when I joined, now we're 7th just before January where I can actually move some players around. 

So what's so special about this tactic in particular, other than that that I just plug it and started winning? --The freaking width!! No joke, this plays like Man City, except the IWBs. It's crazy, I love how many chances the CMs get. There is constantly space, overloads everywhere, followed by quick switches of play to the opposite flank, one-twos, the DLF moving amazingly, and the CMs getting a ton of chances. They dribble, they pass, they shoot constantly. The wingers strech the play allowing them to do their thing. One time I had to play an opposite foot as the winger, he just casually cut inside perfectly recreating City's Sterling - Sane combo from 2 years ago. Madness. Funny thing is, I was watching the Wolves - City game on the side while playing this and I WAS SEEING SO MANY SIMILAR MOVEMENTS!! It's insane, it really is. 

The IWBs provide so much stability in midfield, having the most possession every game is almost a certain. The way the team is set up, it doesn't press high and that is actually good considering the low quality of players. The wingers are on support in the MR strata so they help out a lot. The CMs go back as well, so the team is very solid defensively(as much a small team can be). 

So yeah, all the usual concepts of Ozil's philosophy are there, it's just a bit more cautious and stable possession based tactic that happens to create magic on offence from time to time. Guys, if I ever become a manager in real life, I'm hiring Ö-zil to the Arsenal! as my assistant to make my tactics. I don't care if he wants to or not. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

18 hours ago, 04texag said:

Yes, please do this! Thanks for all of your work @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Also, not sure if you saw my resurrection of your 3-4-3 with an adaptation for fm20, but it's working fairly well finally.

Ah, fantastic. Good to see there's some life in the old dog yet!  Haven't used to 3-man defence regularly for some time. Only really a very purpose-built 3-5-2 with Arsenal.

 

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

@ElJefe4 from my personal experience with Lyon (as one of those guys who "built some great sides" in the long run its not going to matter too much as your reserves play at such a low level. Up to age 18 (often 3 years given they come through young in France) you want them in the Under 19s as there is more training, then once they hit 18 they'll either be too good for the National 2 level anyway, so should either be loaned or given a pathway to the first team. 

Of course your Reserves manager will still select them anyway, so I ended up selecting a starting XI for the Under 19s to prevent my best prospects wasting time playing matches instead of training, but if you take control of arranging friendlies for the Reserves then there should be no fixtures anyway.

Similar to OP I don't really pay too much attention to the playing style of a manager. Right now in my Roma save Sinisa Mihajlovic - Direct, Balanced, More Urgent - is still in charge of Bologna who had 3 consecutive mid-table finishes. I loaned them a 19-year old forward, Eddy Salcedo, as a Key Player (which I was slightly dubious about) who hit 24 goals and they went up to 2nd (I also loaned them two centre backs, but still) whereas Vincenzo Montella at Sassuolo matches up more with myself stylistically, so I loaned him a young winger, Emanuel Vignato, for two seasons. First season he got game time despite his Rotation contract, but 2nd season they got in Riyad Mahrez in the winter and he barely played since and appears to actually have declined. Point is so many things can change, but I have generally found they will stick to the promised playing time. I generally go with my coaches' opinion of what a player's level should be, but would rather loan a young forward or centre back to a team chasing promotion from the 2nd tier than one predicted to go straight back down from the 1st. 

This is excellent. Really good insight. Thank you.

One thing I would add is that youth development changes quite a bit once you have established a strong first team which you're happy with.

If I do not yet have a strong first team, and a young player comes through then I will beeline them straight towards that spot in the team and let them grow into it. Same applies whether that's my starting 11 or broader first team squad.

To me, youth development got far more challenging - and slowed down considerably - once my squad was in place. I needed to find other ways to give young players game time. To me it becomes more of a numbers game at that point. We go through hundreds of talented young players who don't make it to the level we need as the bar gets higher. Players who make it all the way through, in my case a Leao, Vitor Costa or Tiago Valentim become increasingly difficult to find.

At this point you have some players who look talented but ultimately don't quite make it. It becomes more difficult to give everybody the football they need. Ultimately you only have a finite amount of game-time to give out over the course of a season.

 

7 hours ago, Impacto said:

I just want to highlight this little gem that I've never tried before until today. Like most people here, I've tried most of Ö-zil to the Arsenal! tactics and enjoy playing and learning from them. Recently I've trying and trying different stuff, hoping to settle on a save that keeps me interested long term. Long story short, after reading the recently released Pirlo thesis a thought came into my head. I want to play a save where I create a total football legacy! Normally, when I play Total Football in it's many forms, I use fairly decent sides and end up dominating soon after. It's really fun, but it gets boring after a while. So I opted for something else. An FM 18 journeyman save where I go to the different teams and countries and I make them bask in the glory of Total Football. 

So, I booted up an old  save as I didn't want to start a new game for the milionth time. The year is 2028 and I found myself a new club - A mid table team, now finding itself in relegation battle in the top tier of Polish football - FC Cracovia. Turns out it's the oldest Polish club! 

Anyway, I wanted to make this team play beautiful, fluid football but ah... the players there can't really do that. Or so I thought. I remembered seeing this thread long ago and how Ozil was first introducing his style to Benfica. How he slowly turned the team into an absolute monster. I played around with a few tactics before I even pressed continue for the first time. The usual setup of Total Football requires really quality players to succeed. The 3-4-3 Diamond is the same. So I came back to this thread and adapted the tactic shown above to my team. Changed a few things, but not much. My little brain can't create stuff like this on it's own, so I'm really happy that this thread exists! 

I did not expect this to play so damn well! It's brilliant as always from Ozil. I was lucky that the team was full of good attacking midfielders, capable of playing in the CM strata and having good technique, shots, passing and dribble(mostly 11s and 12s). I also had a perfect player able to perform the DLP duties. My striker was decent as well, very similar in style of play to Jimenez - fairly strong and fast, with a decent finish, but not exceptional. I even had perfectly set up players for the wings. I guess it was destiny...   

I played 6 games today - 5 wins, 1 loss where we dominated so hard, 29 shots in the end for 10 for the opponent.  The team hadn't even learned the tactic yet and we started winning games. Team was 3rd from the bottom when I joined, now we're 7th just before January where I can actually move some players around. 

So what's so special about this tactic in particular, other than that that I just plug it and started winning? --The freaking width!! No joke, this plays like Man City, except the IWBs. It's crazy, I love how many chances the CMs get. There is constantly space, overloads everywhere, followed by quick switches of play to the opposite flank, one-twos, the DLF moving amazingly, and the CMs getting a ton of chances. They dribble, they pass, they shoot constantly. The wingers strech the play allowing them to do their thing. One time I had to play an opposite foot as the winger, he just casually cut inside perfectly recreating City's Sterling - Sane combo from 2 years ago. Madness. Funny thing is, I was watching the Wolves - City game on the side while playing this and I WAS SEEING SO MANY SIMILAR MOVEMENTS!! It's insane, it really is. 

The IWBs provide so much stability in midfield, having the most possession every game is almost a certain. The way the team is set up, it doesn't press high and that is actually good considering the low quality of players. The wingers are on support in the MR strata so they help out a lot. The CMs go back as well, so the team is very solid defensively(as much a small team can be). 

So yeah, all the usual concepts of Ozil's philosophy are there, it's just a bit more cautious and stable possession based tactic that happens to create magic on offence from time to time. Guys, if I ever become a manager in real life, I'm hiring Ö-zil to the Arsenal! as my assistant to make my tactics. I don't care if he wants to or not. 

Wonderful  Glad to hear it's working out for you.

[zlatanera]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

To me, youth development got far more challenging - and slowed down considerably - once my squad was in place. I needed to find other ways to give young players game time. To me it becomes more of a numbers game at that point. We go through hundreds of talented young players who don't make it to the level we need as the bar gets higher. Players who make it all the way through, in my case a Leao, Vitor Costa or Tiago Valentim become increasingly difficult to find.

At this point you have some players who look talented but ultimately don't quite make it. It becomes more difficult to give everybody the football they need. Ultimately you only have a finite amount of game-time to give out over the course of a season.

Absolutely, it’s why my saves tend to die right as the newgens are hitting 1st-team level. Happened with the aforementioned Lyon save and is currently afflicting me with Roma as a combination of strong finances and high reputation (3 CL out of 4) mean I’m under no pressure to sell, whilst clubs either insult me with derogatory bids or a long-held interest dies off without one at all.

Funny thing is part of the problem Barcelona have irl is everyone is overpaid, whereas the highest salary I’ve ever given outside of a Man Utd save is Kostas Manolas’ €170k/week, which seems to mean that even though clubs can more easily afford to pay my players they then refuse to offer value. Whilst ordinarily I’d be willing to offer a little wiggle room, when I have such a young squad the guys who need offloaded are in their peak rather than early in the save when I happily dump 30+ year players onto the market at a cut price to make room. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by zlatanera

[04texag]

Just for grins, in a CL matchup where I'm at the top of the table in group playing the bottom, I loaded up the most recent offset formation. Within 2 minutes, my "Leao" AMC scored a stellar goal. 

[Clifton]

Hello @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!.   You mentioned a 352 you developed for Arsenal.   Did you make a thread for it?   Always wanted to make a back three work, but never quite managed it.   This thread has been great to follow, love the single-minded commitment to squad development.

[04texag]

Hey @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, you have I believe a few times converted or cross-trained a DM to play as a IWB. What are the primary stats you look for? How do you evaluate a good candidate?

I have a young DM DLP who is solid, but he is a second string behind two better DLPs. I'm thinking he would be a good fit for this. Would you use him on the right or left, or both?

[skyline72]

6 hours ago, Clifton said:

Hello @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!.   You mentioned a 352 you developed for Arsenal.   Did you make a thread for it?   Always wanted to make a back three work, but never quite managed it.   This thread has been great to follow, love the single-minded commitment to squad development.

 

[Clifton]

@skyline72  Thanks

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

19 hours ago, Clifton said:

Hello @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!.   You mentioned a 352 you developed for Arsenal.   Did you make a thread for it?   Always wanted to make a back three work, but never quite managed it.   This thread has been great to follow, love the single-minded commitment to squad development.

Thank you  Yea I have never written about the 3-5-2 with Arsenal but you can see it in the thread linked above.

Eventually I settled on a highly structured Overload. I wanted relentless pressing and very quick transitions to take advantage of Aubameyang and Lacazette up front and it worked well as they got 30 league goals each, which I think might be the first time I have seen a strike partnership do that.

I like the 3-5-2 as a transitional system when your squad isn't quite where it should be, but you have enough talent to paper over the cracks and win things. For example, in Arsenal's case the 3rd centre back mitigates the lack of quality at centre back and the 3-man midfield means mitigates Ozil's lack of work-rate and you can really let him just play.

It's a lot of fun to see. I think it might be my favourite 3-man defence variant at the moment. I particularly like the freedom to play 2 up front, 2 attacking wingbacks and 2 attack minded midfielders whilst still being solid at the back.
 

17 hours ago, 04texag said:

Hey @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, you have I believe a few times converted or cross-trained a DM to play as a IWB. What are the primary stats you look for? How do you evaluate a good candidate?

I have a young DM DLP who is solid, but he is a second string behind two better DLPs. I'm thinking he would be a good fit for this. Would you use him on the right or left, or both?

I look for a good all-rounder, so good technique, intelligence and work rate. Maybe lacking the flair or attacking output to play further forward.

Often I'll use this as a means of getting young players game time earlier in their career - Vitor Costa and Florentino Luis, for example - before moving them back inside when they develop. Others it'll be a longer-term switch, particularly if they are not at the same standard as their competition centrally - Batista, for example.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[anxiousAnarchist]

On 10/08/2019 at 05:34, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Have you ever tried adapting a structure like this with a higher intensity pressing style? Something a bit more Roger Schmidt/Leipzig-esque?

I'd maybe switch the Regista to a Segundo Volante or Roaming Playmaker but it looks very similar in general I think. I'd be curious to see your take. I know you've written about your change in thinking surrounding Klopp/Guardiola, moving systems from Very Fluid to the more structured side of the spectrum. I may try to work up a system this weekend to mess around with.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 26/09/2020 at 18:40, anxiousAnarchist said:

Have you ever tried adapting a structure like this with a higher intensity pressing style? Something a bit more Roger Schmidt/Leipzig-esque?

I'd maybe switch the Regista to a Segundo Volante or Roaming Playmaker but it looks very similar in general I think. I'd be curious to see your take. I know you've written about your change in thinking surrounding Klopp/Guardiola, moving systems from Very Fluid to the more structured side of the spectrum. I may try to work up a system this weekend to mess around with.

Actually, yes. I do love pressing in a 4-4-2 shape. If you look at the most recent season, it's not a million miles off.

There's one further update still to come which is a slight evolution on that but very similar.

[anxiousAnarchist]

11 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Actually, yes. I do love pressing in a 4-4-2 shape. If you look at the most recent season, it's not a million miles off.

There's one further update still to come which is a slight evolution on that but very similar.

Wow one step ahead of me! An O-zil to the Arsenal! take on heavy metal football sounds like my dream come true, I look forward to it. I'm still playing FM18 mostly myself and I've resorted to making route one tactics just to keep myself interested. The more direct styles are very fun when you get them working

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 hours ago, anxiousAnarchist said:

Wow one step ahead of me! An O-zil to the Arsenal! take on heavy metal football sounds like my dream come true, I look forward to it. I'm still playing FM18 mostly myself and I've resorted to making route one tactics just to keep myself interested. The more direct styles are very fun when you get them working

I've really enjoyed the style. This last couple of seasons have been far and away my most effective attempt, but I think that's largely due to the squad I have built up.

I really enjoyed very brief 1-2 season saves with Liverpool, Napoli, PSG and Arsenal (once again, picking the minnow clubs but I wanted near ready-made squads) using variants of highly structured overload.

• With Liverpool, a direct 4-3-3 pretty much exactly what they are doing in real life.
• Napoli was similar but more high-tempo possession, using the 2018 squad Sarri had just left.
• PSG a direct 4-2-4/4-4-2 shape accommodating Neymar, Mbappe, Cavani and Di Maria.
• Arsenal alternating between a direct and a high-tempo possession 3-5-2 depending on the opponent.

My internet is dreadful at the moment so I cannot upload new screenshots, but I am sure you will find most if you search around a bit  

[MadOnion]

It seems like playing FM18 is still the way to go this coming season.

Unfortunately, in FM21, Gedson, Florentino Luis, Tiago Dantas, Ruben Dias, Tomas Tavares, Jota and Tomás Tavares were either sold or sent on loan.
Unfortunately the president, once again, selling/loaning out all of our future stars.

Luckily the academy is filled with many more but it hurts seeing these guys being replaced with the likes of Otamendi and Vertonghen.

It should be a fun save.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

8 hours ago, MadOnion said:

It seems like playing FM18 is still the way to go this coming season.

Unfortunately, in FM21, Gedson, Florentino Luis, Tiago Dantas, Ruben Dias, Tomas Tavares, Jota and Tomás Tavares were either sold or sent on loan.
Unfortunately the president, once again, selling/loaning out all of our future stars.

Luckily the academy is filled with many more but it hurts seeing these guys being replaced with the likes of Otamendi and Vertonghen.

It should be a fun save.

The same thing happened to me a few years ago when the Ajax squad I used to build the 3-4-3 diamond side gradually fell apart. Funnily enough the next generation proved much better, but I didn't play a save with them! 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Enjoyed this one. Never quite got it working at Benfica, but interesting prospect 

[Jean0987654321]

On 10/10/2020 at 03:47, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Enjoyed this one. Never quite got it working at Benfica, but interesting prospect 

Sounds like my old Malaga save in FM14...

[vrbrasa]

Em 08/08/2020 em 10:38, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Interesting question. We play roughly 62 games per season, assuming we reach the finals in all the cups, which we do tend to.

Of that, I would aim to give the first team more or less 40 games per season and the squad players about 20. More for the squad player if they are particularly competitive or look to be particularly high potential. Then obviously injuries effect that, the same as anyone else, but I think we are pretty good on that front.

Of that 40, I'd expect the first team to play close to 30 in the League and 10 in Europe.

As for rotation players, I give them both the Super Cups at the start, 2 games in the Champions League group once we have secured qualification, all of the domestic cup games during the season (including finals) and then normally at least 5-6 league games after we have won the title.

The short Portuguese season and winning the league early typically means that the first team are only playing one game per week from the Champions League Semi Final onwards. Portugal also doesn't have any crazy hectic period like late December in the UK. In fact, they have a couple of week break mid-season.

For these reasons, even without rotating much we are usually very well conditioned for the latter Champions League stages, and playing against tired opponents.

At international level, we also go pretty far into major tournaments at 100% condition because players aren't as fatigued by the season and can typically play a rotated squad for one group game.

One final point is I like to use my substitutes early. I'll often get Valentim and one other on near the 50th minute to give them time to get into the game. Then save my last one for around the 70-75th minute.

Thank you for the question. I am not sure I had ever addressed this in detail as it's very contextual to the Portuguese league.

HI ozil.this serie is the best one you have wrote (and I pick myself saying this again and again). 

One question, how do Manage Portugal? Do you rotate? It's hard to get players on all games... 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 22/10/2020 at 21:41, vrbrasa said:

HI ozil.this serie is the best one you have wrote (and I pick myself saying this again and again). 

One question, how do Manage Portugal? Do you rotate? It's hard to get players on all games... 

Sorry for the slow reply - hectic time at the moment with lots of work in remote locations with minimal access to internet.

Thank you for the kind words.

Interesting question about Portugal - initially I was rotating heavily as I wanted to build depth and results were good performances were inconsistent. Despite being mainly the same players, they were clearly behind the performances I was seeing at Benfica.

Eventually I decided that the international team played together so irregularly that rotating was simply too much. Instead, I started playing the team I was intending to use at the next World Cup/European Championship as much as possible and noticed a marked improvement.

I've played ahead of my latest update - due to internet access (cannot currently upload images) - so I am trying not to leak any spoilers. But, after the 4-year cycle between 2022 and 2026 we went into the 2026 World Cup with a core of 12-14 players with 60-100 caps. One or two will tail off but 2030 could see a team of centurians.

On a more general note, I'm entering 2026/27 and trying to work my way through a major selection headache with Benfica. I'm looking forward to being able to give updates. I need a subjective opinion as I am too emotionally attached to make the tough decisions! 

[bibird.]

Interesting piece on the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54737758

Nothing mind-blowing, but a good refresher for a few key aspects of this thread.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 hours ago, bibird. said:

Interesting piece on the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54737758

Nothing mind-blowing, but a good refresher for a few key aspects of this thread.

Thank you for sharing  I particularly like the opening line about winning the Champions League with 4 or 5 kids from the academy 

Something I have been trying - but also failing - to do is increase the number of players I have in my Under-18s.

Given training facilities and coaching play a greater role in development up to the age of 18, I want to try 'flooding' the academy with talented 15-17 year olds and then being more selective at 18.

The challenge has been finding enough youngsters with sufficient potential and bringing them to the club. I am seeing a lot of 5-star potential 15-16 year olds drop potential as they begin to develop, but few the other way around.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2025/26 Update: the 3-1-6

Before I begin, I am going to apologise if this comes across as vague. Due to lack of internet access I am retrospectively posting this update a month or so after having played it to get the thread up to speed.

I also hope these screenshots work, as I have struggled in previous posts. If not, it'll have to wait a few months until I'm back home.

https://i.imgur.com/SYKnJsu.png
 

The pre-season saw a summer transfer exodus, motivated by two factors:

1. a "top heavy" first team squad.
2. generating transfer revenue to counter balance the financial free-fall due to our ever expanding wage bill.

Elvis, Halex and Tiago Almada, in particular, leave the club as world class talents and I have no doubt they'll be back to bite us in the ass in future, but we need to open up some space for young players from the academy.

https://i.imgur.com/n2At1bn.png

Tactically, we remain extremely similar in a lopsided 4-2-4 shape. The only change from the previous season was withdrawing our midfield into the DM strata.

The motivation for this switch was to experiment with the 3-1-6 attacking shape we have been starting to see in real life.

Dantas drops between Florentino Luis and Alex Pinto to create a back 3, with Vitor Costa roaming in the space ahead of them creating the '3-1' build up shape.

https://i.imgur.com/0Z1rc3X.png

This 3-1 shape allows us to circulate possession and advance the ball, leaving an extremely aggressive - and semi-undefendable - line of 6 in attack.

https://i.imgur.com/oQe7E43.png

 

Spoiler

..and yes, the screenshots are against PSG again. I am sorry to any PSG fans. They are the second best side in Europe now, by some way.

The relentless intensity continued, with another record-breaking title.

https://i.imgur.com/1vtql9Z.png

Led by a new talisman..
 

https://i.imgur.com/CWeVwmd.png

..and reaching a goalscoring level I think may be impossible to beat.

https://i.imgur.com/h5nJVQj.png

Europe was similar:

https://i.imgur.com/JHEnPD1.png

https://i.imgur.com/lfinvAO.png

https://i.imgur.com/sD4pTRH.png

https://i.imgur.com/onz0IjW.png

https://i.imgur.com/tGElIwE.png

The Trophy Cabinet

https://i.imgur.com/QGAAraN.png

I haven't really got too much more to say at the moment. Spectacular football, easily the best I have ever seen in any version of FM.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

uploading off incredibly slow satellite internet is messing up the screenshots

I think the recent update to forum software nerfed the copy-paste links from imgur. Certainly, what used to work for me doesn't now. I've taken to copying the images and pasting them into the reply box.

Like this (your last image):

[zlatanera]

That's some insane results. I'm curious on a personal note, when was the last time you lost? I'm currently pushing for the 200-game unbeaten streak with Roma, but I'm scoring about 60 fewer goals per season than you! I flip-flop one whether this shows my inferiority, an increase in defensive capability in FM19, or both.

I enjoyed the 3-1-6 article linked, I hadn't seen anyone talking about Ajax in that way, they more just focussed on "4-2-3-1, Frenkie is incredible" or "omg Tadic is scoring more than Ronaldo". 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by zlatanera

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

is it possible to edit my post so the images show? I think uploading off incredibly slow satellite internet is messing up the screenshots.

Your internet is fine, you just have to remove the [img] tags. If you just paste the direct links, they get embedded automatically.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, warlock said:

I think the recent update to forum software nerfed the copy-paste links from imgur. Certainly, what used to work for me doesn't now. I've taken to copying the images and pasting them into the reply box.

Like this (your last image):

Ah, makes sense. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

16 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Your internet is fine, you just have to remove the [img] tags. If you just paste the direct links, they get embedded automatically.

I have tried removing the tags, although I have noticed in previous posts that links have failed to embed. I'll try in a couple of weeks when I get to Nairobi.

 

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

That's some insane results. I'm curious on a personal note, when was the last time you lost? I'm currently pushing for the 200-game unbeaten streak with Roma, but I'm scoring about 60 fewer goals per season than you! I flip-flop one whether this shows my inferiority, an increase in defensive capability in FM19, or both.

I enjoyed the 3-1-6 article linked, I hadn't seen anyone talking about Ajax in that way, they more just focussed on "4-2-3-1, Frenkie is incredible" or "omg Tadic is scoring more than Ronaldo". 

 

In the league, I have lost track. I cannot be far from 200. It's been uncompetitive for a number of years now. In the Champions League, this was a 5th win in a row. Although I did just lose the 2026 Super Cup to Dortmund 

That classic major European sides still have individual talents but are collectively a long way behind as a team.

Ultimately this is the pinnacle of 9 years developing an extremely talented group of players, with world class facilities and staff. The last few years have just been about squeezing out of couple of % improvement each year.

Yes, I enjoyed the article about the 3-1-6 as well. A lot is said about the 2-3-5 attacking shape and this is just an evolution on that. Next is the 2-1-7! 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[MadOnion]

What I'm particularly amazed about are the team's goalscoring exploits. I don't think I've seen such numbers in FM19/20. I wish they'd bring back team shape.

Another impressing stat was the fact you scored 6 goals with 16 shots in a CL final. I don't think I've seen that either on FM20 (unless you're playing a team that is a lot weaker than yours).

Remarkable 

Edited November 9, 2020 by MadOnion

[axehan1]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!how do you approach the end of  the 1st season with everyone coming back from loan?I find it a right mare trying to offload all those players. How long does it take you to whittle down all three squads to the numbers you refer to at the beginning of this epic story?Do you release plenty of players or try and get a transfer fee for everyone?

[zlatanera]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

In the league, I have lost track. I cannot be far from 200. It's been uncompetitive for a number of years now. In the Champions League, this was a 5th win in a row. Although I did just lose the 2026 Super Cup to Dortmund 

That classic major European sides still have individual talents but are collectively a long way behind as a team.

Ultimately this is the pinnacle of 9 years developing an extremely talented group of players, with world class facilities and staff. The last few years have just been about squeezing out of couple of % improvement each year.

Yes, I enjoyed the article about the 3-1-6 as well. A lot is said about the 2-3-5 attacking shape and this is just an evolution on that. Next is the 2-1-7! 

I have no doubt playing in Portugal rather than a 'Top 5' helps but I feel that whatever league the human manages in will eventually become uncompetitive, except perhaps Bundesliga - which will at least have a thriving Europa League scene - and the Premier League due to their superior finances. For example I look at Juventus in my save and they're - perhaps realistically - stocked with over-30s and under-23s, with nobody in those peak years. 

I imagine there are plenty of guys who look at the likes of this save and wonder what the point is when they'd prefer to haul a team up from the 10th tier of the English pyramid to eventually reaching a League Cup final in 2050, but "marginal gains" can be quite satisfying as well. Unlike you I lack the confidence to swap formations too often, but I think knowing that I have such a dominant squad makes it the perfect time to see what some of the PIs can be used for. 

2-1-7 actually sounds more straight forward in theory: take a 4-3-3, tell everyone except the two centre backs and the DM to push forward wherever possible...how quite a lot of us play it on FM, actually. But where does 2-7-2 fit into this? 

[04texag]

15 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

2-1-7 actually sounds more straight forward in theory

I honestly think the 316 sounds pretty straight forward when compared to the typical 235. I think that the ME limits us some though. I would do a typical 433 possession tactic, using a HB-D to drop back between CBs. Use CWB-A's in likely the wingback slots. Need them to push very aggressively forward. In the CM strata, not sure who would be the best pivot, to sit centrally in front of the HB, maybe a DLP-S, with hold position? The rest I think is pretty easy from there.

[zlatanera]

2 minutes ago, 04texag said:

I honestly think the 316 sounds pretty straight forward when compared to the typical 235. I think that the ME limits us some though. I would do a typical 433 possession tactic, using a HB-D to drop back between CBs. Use CWB-A's in likely the wingback slots. Need them to push very aggressively forward. In the CM strata, not sure who would be the best pivot, to sit centrally in front of the HB, maybe a DLP-S, with hold position? The rest I think is pretty easy from there.

I saw somebody claiming you need to use AM instead of MC to get proper progression playing out from the back, can't quite remember where (could even have been your thread)...that would certainly push them forward, then you would be able to use Su duties even if you weren't going for a collective overload like in this thread.

[04texag]

1 minute ago, zlatanera said:

I saw somebody claiming you need to use AM instead of MC to get proper progression playing out from the back, can't quite remember where (could even have been your thread)...that would certainly push them forward, then you would be able to use Su duties even if you weren't going for a collective overload like in this thread.

That was, someone was talking about the placement of players between the lines of the defense. There are issues in the ME with where players locate themselves, what tiers of space. I don't think we can really effect that. 

If I were to move the pivot then to the AM strata, it would necessarily be an Enganche. But even still, that player would be way too far forward to be the 1 in the 316. I think you have to accept that some positional elements are not really true to life and go with a CM strata player.

Kind of like in my thread, I think you need a combination of fluid/overload players up top, with very stable back 4, in order to make this work. I did something similar maybe 3 months back in an adapation of De Zerbi's positional play at sassuolo from last year. He would use a stable back 4 to recycle possession and remain stable defensively, then very fluid in front of that. Using a 4231 shape.

[zlatanera]

11 minutes ago, 04texag said:

If I were to move the pivot then to the AM strata, it would necessarily be an Enganche. But even still, that player would be way too far forward to be the 1 in the 316. I think you have to accept that some positional elements are not really true to life and go with a CM strata player.

Ah no you mistook my meaning. I think the 3-1 part is easy to do, I was meaning moving the CMs up to be part of the 6. Like so:

Ignore the St-Co defence, that's just because this is me messing around with my Roma side. If I was to pursue this I would probably use players with the trait Comes Deep To Get Ball in at least one of the AM roles to help our progression. 

[04texag]

10 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Ah no you mistook my meaning. I think the 3-1 part is easy to do, I was meaning moving the CMs up to be part of the 6. Like so:

Ignore the St-Co defence, that's just because this is me messing around with my Roma side. If I was to pursue this I would probably use players with the trait Comes Deep To Get Ball in at least one of the AM roles to help our progression. 

Right, so that would make a 217 shape. My thought was on the 316 you would do this:

 

[04texag]

13 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Right, so that would make a 217 shape. My thought was on the 316 you would do this:

 

Ya, messing with this in game and I don't think it's going to work.

I've been looking for articles that talk about Sassuolo v Inter match from a week or so back. De Zerbi lined up in a 3142, and I know he uses positional play style total football. I bet, a shape like that would be the best way to implement a 316. I may play with that.

[04texag]

Probably something like this for a 316 I'm thinking now. WM are both set to stay wider, hold position, cross less. The CMS is more of a playmaker, roaming, and taking more risks. The BBM is a runner, hard working and more defensive. The DLPd, would be like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! preferred playmaker spot/player.

Edited November 9, 2020 by 04texag

[04texag]

19 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Probably something like this for a 316 I'm thinking now. WM are both set to stay wider, hold position, cross less. The CMS is more of a playmaker, roaming, and taking more risks. The BBM is a runner, hard working and more defensive. The DLPd, would be like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! preferred playmaker spot/player.

I played one game with this tactic just now, team completely unfamiliar with the tactic, and we dominated Villareal away, 1-0. My players average positions is spot on, just not high enough up the pitch as I did not go overly aggressive tactically.

 

[Bot Makel]

 

If I were to recreate a 3-1-6 I would opt for this configuration. I think the DMs are perfect as a pivot ahead of the 3.

I used this setup to replicate bayern munich. In place of the DMs I had a segundo volante.

Edit: CFa is a CFS

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Bot Makel

[Bot Makel]

Example of Italy's 3-1-6 at Euro 2016

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 09/11/2020 at 13:20, MadOnion said:

What I'm particularly amazed about are the team's goalscoring exploits. I don't think I've seen such numbers in FM19/20. I wish they'd bring back team shape.

Another impressing stat was the fact you scored 6 goals with 16 shots in a CL final. I don't think I've seen that either on FM20 (unless you're playing a team that is a lot weaker than yours).

Remarkable 

I actually think it's the Overload mentality, combined with a balanced shape and duties.

The reason I say this is that I have been able to replicate this - albeit not quite to the same level - with Arsenal, PSG, Liverpool and Napoli. At Arsenal I used a 5-3-2/3-5-2 and Aubameyang and Lacazette ended up with 30 goals each. At PSG a similar 4-2-4 variant and Cavani broke Ibrahimovic's goalscoring record, Neymar won the Balon d'Or and Mbappe exploded as the season went on. Liverpool and Napoli both broke long-standing domestic goal scoring records playing 4-3-3.

The difference was that they were all playing Highly Structured football, which as explained earlier in the thread I use when I haven't got an entire team capable of playing the way Benfica are now.
 

23 hours ago, axehan1 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!how do you approach the end of  the 1st season with everyone coming back from loan?I find it a right mare trying to offload all those players. How long does it take you to whittle down all three squads to the numbers you refer to at the beginning of this epic story?Do you release plenty of players or try and get a transfer fee for everyone?

Lots of admin in the first 2-3 seasons for sure, no getting around it. After that it gets a lot easier once you've streamlined the squad and only need to make small changes.

 

20 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I imagine there are plenty of guys who look at the likes of this save and wonder what the point is when they'd prefer to haul a team up from the 10th tier of the English pyramid to eventually reaching a League Cup final in 2050, but "marginal gains" can be quite satisfying as well. Unlike you I lack the confidence to swap formations too often, but I think knowing that I have such a dominant squad makes it the perfect time to see what some of the PIs can be used for. 

Plenty, I am sure. Myself included sometimes.

Everybody plays for different reasons. For me it's about creating a style and seeing it play out in the match engine. That typically means playing as the best clubs in the world or at least on the periphery. For others it's about the challenge of promotions etc. For some reason that's never done it for me. I like the idea but have never managed to commit to a save. Ajax have been my historic club but I think now it's safe to say it's Benfica.
 

20 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I saw somebody claiming you need to use AM instead of MC to get proper progression playing out from the back, can't quite remember where (could even have been your thread)...that would certainly push them forward, then you would be able to use Su duties even if you weren't going for a collective overload like in this thread.

Why? what's the logic behind that?

I find almost the opposite. I typically find shapes without an AM and a deeper midfield instead easier, but in this case the quality of Leao necessitates that he plays as an AM.

 

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Why? what's the logic behind that?

I find almost the opposite. I typically find shapes without an AM and a deeper midfield instead easier, but in this case the quality of Leao necessitates that he plays as an AM.

Sometimes feel kinda weird about linking other "upstart" threads to this mega-thread but I already started it didn't I? Basically, a guy in @04texag's Juego de Posición thread felt that when playing out from the back with CM they were almost coming too deep, whilst AM provided a more desirable shape. This is FM20 so obviously there could be ME differences to what you see. I can see it both ways: I generally do feel that I end up with too many players in front of the opposition press, but that can be very useful against more aggressive teams in drawing them out allowing for a quick ball down the flanks; however when facing a massed defence I do feel my teams allow too much time for them to fall back once the kick is taken short. 

Something like the above graphic from Total Football Analysis I think shows what I mean. That example is Man City using a back three, but basically what @Kharza_FM was getting at is those two blue dots representing the central midfielders would - when using CMs in FM20 (and imo FM19, can't remember FM18 but judging by your OP in Total Football - Very Fluid it isn't an issue) - be found too deep, most likely instead of having one in the centre cirle and one ahead, you would have one in the centre circle and one behind, making it harder to get into the opposition's third of the pitch without resorting to more direct passes.

As I said, its all incredibly subjective. For example here's my team - using this tactic - building from the back in the UEFA Super Cup against Red Bull Salzburg:

GK in possession, centre backs have split with the DLP coming deep, IWB hugging the touchline whilst W come inside...the latter seems off but overall a pretty solid shape. Salzburg have shut off the DLP as an option but we have two easy balls as well as the possibility of going longer to #2 or #18 if we really needed to.

Blanco went short to DCL who holds the ball, and now things have got weird. Ignore #16 - he's an IWB doing what he should - but DLP #63, RPM #7 and MEZ #53 have all come short, a few seconds later they will literally be stood in a straight line. What is the point? Yeah we'll keep possession but there is no structure and no option for a line-breaking pass. Its not even an overload, as in that area of the pitch Salzburg aren't going to press us enough to open up enough space to make a difference. As it happens, Van Maanen gives it to #63, he switches it out to #18 and a direct attack is on. But with the instructions Play Out Of Defence, Focus Play Through The Middle, Much Shorter Passing, and Lower Tempo that's not really what we're aiming to do. 

Now we dominated that game statistically before winning 1-0 due to a smart free kick routine - an essential part of the game imo - and are currently unbeaten in 170 games in all competitions. Clearly, this tactic is working. I've also got no fewer than 7 roaming roles in that side (only the GK, DCs and DM don't) which might have an effect, as does the fact that both #63 and #7 are playmakers. But it still doesn't seem right, particularly if you were more focussed on replicating real football than I generally am (I play this way because I find it the most entertaining manner in the game, but in real life I prefer the more direct attacking I associate with my favoured Man Utd).

Edited November 10, 2020 by zlatanera

[kandersson]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!you did it again, now I only want to play with a HB in a double pivot in DM strata to achieve the 316 attacking shape!

This mechanism also reminds me of Kimmich's recent role with Bayern in possession, it's almost like a more offensive (!), more fluid (!!), more creative version at this point 

I'm particularly interested in the AMC/ST partnership, of course Leao and Felix are generational talents but their performances, movements (and numbers!) are really special and unique. Would be great to read a more detailed analysis about this specific partnership when/if you have time! Also a personal curiosity, how would you fit a more athletic but less creative elite striker (think Haaland or Lukaku) in a similar tactic (and especially in an AMC/ST partnership)?

Thanks for another amazing read!

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

18 hours ago, kandersson said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!you did it again, now I only want to play with a HB in a double pivot in DM strata to achieve the 316 attacking shape!

This mechanism also reminds me of Kimmich's recent role with Bayern in possession, it's almost like a more offensive (!), more fluid (!!), more creative version at this point 

I'm particularly interested in the AMC/ST partnership, of course Leao and Felix are generational talents but their performances, movements (and numbers!) are really special and unique. Would be great to read a more detailed analysis about this specific partnership when/if you have time! Also a personal curiosity, how would you fit a more athletic but less creative elite striker (think Haaland or Lukaku) in a similar tactic (and especially in an AMC/ST partnership)?

Thanks for another amazing read!

Thank you for the kind words 

A few have made similar comments about the Bayern shape, and I can see the comparison. The original inspiration for the 4-2-4 shape was actually Guardiola using two False 9s against Real Madrid, I think it was.

Later on I came across the article shared above and realised I could make a 3-1-6 and decided to give it a go.

Ultimately this set up is only now going to draw loose limitations on anything we see in real life at the moment. Like you say, we've taken like pressing and high-tempo attacking play and have been able to max out the intensity across the board due to having such a purpose-built squad that has been building toward this for a decade.

I can certainly write more about the AMC/ST partnership. You might have to wait a while, as you've seen, my internet connection is currently not strong enough to embed images right now!  The idea is to have two False 9 type players; both hybrid creator-goalscorers playing off each other. Felix tends to start a bit higher, drop off and roam wide, whilst Leao starts a bit deeper and drives forward (the inspiration for this has always been the ponta de lanca article shared previously). Leao is also a bit more central as he has Jota outside him and I think that's why he's scoring so many. Umbalo is also driving inside from the right flank. Ultimately the opposition defence ends up extremely overloaded with threats coming from everywhere.

 

[MadOnion]

The academy is well and truly alive in FM21.

Both Jota, Florentino and Gedson are out on loan and but they will return once their deals expire.

One can only hope Bayern doesn't activate the optional future fee in Dantas' contract.
I reckon Salihamidžić has been reading this thread and found their own Thiago Alcantara newgen 

Reborn from the ashes... like a Felix  (Brother of the legendary Joao Felix)

[04texag]

1 minute ago, MadOnion said:

The academy is well and truly alive in FM21.

Both Jota, Florentino and Gedson are out on loan and but they will return once their deals expire.

One can only hope Bayern doesn't activate the optional future fee in Dantas' contract.
I reckon Salihamidžić has been reading this thread and found their own Thiago Alcantara newgen 

Reborn from the ashes... like a Felix  (Brother of the legendary Joao Felix)

I haven't been happy yet in trying to find a first long term she for 21, so I might have to go back to SLB and give this a go. 

[Bot Makel]

3-1-6 in FM 21 with inter

[JoOSTAR]

9 minutes ago, Bot Makel said:

3-1-6 in FM 21 with inter

How did you setup the tactic?

0 shots conceded is kinda impressive

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by JoOSTAR