FM 2009 - was it tested thoroughly enough?

[Raniel3]

Regarding the injuries - the main problem is in pre-season.......players are probably starting the pre-season on slightly too low condition and that combined with low match fitness ( which affects stamina ) sees a lot of players getting injured in pre-season and early season.

The answer is to manage your players condition more carefully especially in pre-season. Once the patch comes around things will be a little less harsh in this respect and things should balance out better.

What we wont do is simply cut injuries down so teams can perform unrealistically well with small squads.

To be fair, this might be ONE reason for the injuries. However I see many many matches (80% of all I would guess) where all players have at least 90% condition and nonetheless there are two or three long-time (3 weeks +) injuries in every match. This can't surely be triggered by the pre-season as it's already a league game and everybody seems to be fit.

Regarding the "manager your players condition more carefully in pre-season", firstly that's not RL as the pre-season-training is in general much harder than that during the season. And secondly, even if I did that, the AI wouldn't do that which leads to an unfair and unrealistic advantage.

So what to do is:

1. Tuning down general injury rate (as that is definitely too high checking the injury table and making comparisons to RL)

2. Lower condition drop in matches, as it's too high for 2-games-a-week teams. Even after a week pause, a player does not regain full condition. That is not true in RL in IMHO.

3. Lower number of long-time injuries, as that's also much too high.

4. Fix the bug with subbed player's not regaining 10% condition after a match (unlike not-subbed players who played all the match)

Simply said: RETURN TO THE FM 08 VALUES

They were mostly perfect as everybody would agree, and I have no idea why you changed the values.

There were injury crisis, there were times where everybody was fit, but most of the time you had 2 or 3 injured players. Like in RL. So why did you change that?

[Kriss]

I think that if the demo was merely a demo then it would be acceptable. But it is exactly the same as what we will get on Nov 14th makes it unacceptable. No one should need a patch in order to run the game. Other software companies release a demo which is work in progress and not yet finished. SI release a demo that is finished until it shows up loads of bugs so the answer seems clearly - no it was not tested enough.

Wrong Andy, dunno why I didn't see this before tbh.

In a way we have all just taken part in the very first full public beta of FM.

My reasoning is this, and I'm sure somebody will pick up any flaws in my thinking:)

This year you CANNOT play the game without authenticating it, even if you buy a DVD copy, therefore as long as any patch (or new download files) are automatically included in the authenticating process nobody loses.

That creates a window between demo and release for fixing problems which never existed before in time for release.

If there are any further patches after release Steam will do them automatically even if you didn't buy through Steam.

So it just remains for SI to relabel the demo FM Demo & Public Beta Test.

Now what did I miss:confused:

[glamdring]

Some of us have to authentificate by phone because we don't have home internet access...for me a patch is no problem because I can download it at work, but it certainly won't be coming over the phone as part of any authentification!

Regarding a demo being the same as what people will buy I think that makes perfect sense (unless it is actually stated as a Beta demo or whatever). People who play the demo will buy the product or not based on the demo - if that demo was not actually the same as what they will buy it would be meaningless. Can you imagine if SI fixed some bugs from the demo before the release and in doing so introduced new bugs that weren't there previously and that people buying the game find far worse than those that were in the demo - there really would be uproar then!

[Richard76]

I think that if the demo was merely a demo then it would be acceptable. But it is exactly the same as what we will get on Nov 14th makes it unacceptable. No one should need a patch in order to run the game. Other software companies release a demo which is work in progress and not yet finished. SI release a demo that is finished until it shows up loads of bugs so the answer seems clearly - no it was not tested enough.

I disagree here.

As long as the patch is, as promised, available on release day I'm really not fussed at all about the main bugs. Provided, of course, the release day patch fixes them all.

I think it's very commendable having a release day patch.

[playmaker]

the staff conducting the tests would not necessarily be as familiar with the world of football as the average member of this forum, so would probably not pick up on level of injuries. even if they did, they probably wouldn't consider it their position to challenge it.

Why would the testing staff not be as familiar with the world of football? It's not like SI employ cricket fans. They will know just as much as we do.

Why would they not query level of injuries if they thought they were wrong? Now the testers are quivering wrecks sat in the corner too afraid of the evil developers to speak up. If SI encourage feedback on the board, why wouldn't they encourage feedback from their testers.

[Wakers]

I disagree here.

As long as the patch is, as promised, available on release day I'm really not fussed at all about the main bugs. Provided, of course, the release day patch fixes them all.

I think it's very commendable having a release day patch.

if they tested the thing properly it wouldn't be needed.

[playmaker]

Simply said: RETURN TO THE FM 08 VALUES

They were mostly perfect as everybody would agree, and I have no idea why you changed the values.

I very much doubt there is one magic setting in the game for frequency of injuries. The match engine is contantly modified, which means the chances of getting an injury are always modified too. There may be tens or even hundreds of factors effecting the level of injuries.

[Kriss]

Some of us have to authentificate by phone because we don't have home internet access...for me a patch is no problem because I can download it at work, but it certainly won't be coming over the phone as part of any authentification!

Please read what I said earlier in the thread, vis a vis the phone authentication at least being a window to inform people patches are available. it's so irritating when people try to be clever and end up being really stupid.

Incredible as it may seem I know you can't get a patch over the phone.

[Richard76]

if they tested the thing properly it wouldn't be needed.

Fair point.

What's done is done though. No point digging up the past.

Fingers crossed, the main bugs will be sorted by the time you install the game and the patch and everything will be wonderful.

[Goldeneye007]

Regarding the forward runs and condition.....condition is pretty much adjusted by distance moved and the speed its moved at.....so to change this would entail changing the way forward runs work.

Are you saying that the condition problem will not be solved? In theory it would make sense taht the more you run the more tired you get. But how do you explain that players like lampard can play whole 90 mins running non stop in real life but in fm always ends up exhausted and need to be subbed after 65 mins.

I have only just finished the demo and one thng I have noticed is taht its very rare that I get to make tactical subs. Most of thge time I have usually used up all of my subs after 70 mins and practically every time i will have subed 3 of the four midfielders. This frustration increases when the injury bug kicks in and a couple of player s fet knocks later in the game.

I love the game but the injury and codition "bugs" just spoil it in my oppinion.

[postal postie]

Thats just something you have read.

If I had had the game for half an hour I would have spotted the injury issue.

It's quite poor to spout the rubbish you posted. Mine might not be original but yours is blatantly post increasing!

how could you have come to the conclusion it was a bug in half an hour? thats not enough time to check whether its your training regime, whether its your coaches, whether its your tactics or the oppositions tactics if your getting in game injuries?

not to mention you wouldn't be able to find the source of the bug in that time either if you were a SI programmer

[thisboyshouts]

Why would the testing staff not be as familiar with the world of football? It's not like SI employ cricket fans. They will know just as much as we do.

Why would they not query level of injuries if they thought they were wrong? Now the testers are quivering wrecks sat in the corner too afraid of the evil developers to speak up. If SI encourage feedback on the board, why wouldn't they encourage feedback from their testers.

maybe i didn't make it clear but i was just speculating that SI may use an external agency for testing , as i understand it this is fairly common in the games industry.

the employees of this agency would probably be from a wider range of backgrounds and not necessarily as interested in sports or football as you and I , so may not pick up on this sort of thing.

[celtic_fc]

Apart from injuries I'm enjoying this version, although I haven't bothered to check out 3d.

[Ter]

maybe i didn't make it clear but i was just speculating that SI may use an external agency for testing , as i understand it this is fairly common in the games industry.

the employees of this agency would probably be from a wider range of backgrounds and not necessarily as interested in sports or football as you and I , so may not pick up on this sort of thing.

That's why it's not always good to speculate as most of the time it's quite far from the truth.

We've got an internal testing team here at SI which runs at capacity for most months of the year, an internal test team at SEGA and an external beta test team made up of forum users, researchers and assistant researchers to name but a few.

[Wakers]

That's why it's not always good to speculate as most of the time it's quite far from the truth.

We've got an internal testing team here at SI which runs at capacity for most months of the year, an internal test team at SEGA and an external beta test team made up of forum users, researchers and assistant researchers to name but a few.

so how on earth did the injuries thing get through???

[thisboyshouts]

That's why it's not always good to speculate as most of the time it's quite far from the truth.

We've got an internal testing team here at SI which runs at capacity for most months of the year, an internal test team at SEGA and an external beta test team made up of forum users, researchers and assistant researchers to name but a few.

that's cool to know !!

no excuses then

[Matt ex SEGA]

Is this the first FM09 blame the testers thread? So glad to be here.

I always like to blame the testers. For everything. Proposition 8, the war on terror, the lack of teaspoons at SEGA HQ.

Well, two out of the above three, anyway.

[Ter]

Is this the first FM09 blame the testers thread? So glad to be here.

I always like to blame the testers. For everything. Proposition 8, the war on terror, the lack of teaspoons at SEGA HQ.

Well, two out of the above three, anyway.

We'll swap you some teaspoons for some forks. We've loads of teaspoons.

[Crowie]

IMO the injury issue is not a bug but caused by the players fitness/energy levels dropping to fast and as the players tire they are more prone to injuries. This will not be seen where managers can rotate and replace players due to having larger squads..

Fraid not mate. Playing as Arsenal. Added 4 players to current squad in close season. Late September (approx), players are all match fit, I lost 3 players in the first half of 1 game. Fixed them with "injury fixer", rotated the players for the next league game. Had lost another 3 by HT in this game (it was Stoke, maybe Arsene has a point!), ended up with Walcott getting a kicking and having to play majority of 2nd half with him on approx 45 for condition!!

[glamdring]

Please read what I said earlier in the thread, vis a vis the phone authentication at least being a window to inform people patches are available. it's so irritating when people try to be clever and end up being really stupid.

Incredible as it may seem I know you can't get a patch over the phone.

It still means that for those not lucky enough to have internet access they can't get the patch. Being given info over the phone that the game you've just bought and are trying to authenticate has flaws that can be corrected by a patch that you can't get hold of is a great way to tee off your customers - I'm sure they'd rather remain in ignorance of the fact that there is a patch like I did for the first however many versions I played before I joined these forums.

People who are connected to the internet will presumably already know about the patch. Anyway, it doesn't bother me because I can get the patch, I just don't see how having to authenticate helps in any way as far as the patch is concerned.

[postal postie]

We'll swap you some teaspoons for some forks. We've loads of teaspoons.

take all their teaspoons and then negotiate the release of them back

[Kriss]

People I just don't see how having to authenticate helps in any way as far as the patch is concerned.

Well if you can't I really can't be bothered explaining the blindingly obvious all over again.

As for non internet customers, it should be made abundantly clear on the box that you need to authenticate to play, if it isn't I'll join you in condemning somebody for it.

People who don't have the internet are now getting left behind as far as gaming goes, it's an unfortunate fact of life, I have no idea of the numbers involved which would certainly be interesting to know.

I suspect it's already very much a minority and there will always be a point at which a minority becomes too small to justify special measures, sad, but a fact of life.

At the moment at least there is phone authentication.

[homerjnick]

The injury bug can be stopped if you lower right down the general training schedule. That is a workaround for the demo so you can enjoy the demo.

[FrazT]

so how on earth did the injuries thing get through???

The frequency of injuries ,especially pre-season, was highlighted by the testers BUT was not experienced by all the testers and was controllable by adjusting the training schedule intensities. It was therefore difficult to generalise that it was a specific problem that needed attention. The low condition of players at the start of the game was also highlighted. SI have looked at these issues and have indicated that they will be looked at for the release patch.

As was siad at the start of this thread, there is a difference between finding problems and having them fixed withing a specific time frame.

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Can’t be bothered reading the whole thread, well any of it to be honest, but my tuppenceworth:

Si has no obligation to release a demo. They could just issue the game as the ‘first release’. This would immediately lead to a tirade of complaint threads, which SI would turn into an issues log, then maybe 3 weeks after true release we would get a patch.

However, SI have released a demo. You, me, everybody, we all have the opportunity to participate in some testing for 3 weeks prior to true release. Your threads of complaint are being dealt with. We will have Patch 1 on release day.

Which of the above 2 scenarios would you rather have?

Nobody is really too bothered about perfection of a “game” that you can only play half-a-season on, are they?

[hsainty]

If all of these bugs have been noted than why do we have them when the match engine was tested for a year on fm live? Surely a least one of these bugs would have come up before finalising the disc.

[Kriss]

If all of these bugs have been noted than why do we have them when the match engine was tested for a year on fm live? Surely a least one of these bugs would have come up before finalising the disc.

Errrr, because none of them are due to the ME?

[chopper99]

if they tested the thing properly it wouldn't be needed.

Because everything is just that cut and dried isn't it

There are some rather funny assumptions being made in this thread by people who clearly have no clue about game development but at the same time feel they know enough to point out exactly what's wrong with the way FM is developed and how to fix it. Their answer being 'Test it better'.

Year upon year I'm impressed with the testing of FM, mainly because it's such a hugh game with so many possible variables. How more issues don't get through I don't know to be honest. People seem to forget that your average tester who's testing the game and reporting bugs does not have much imput when it comes to risk assessment and deciding what needs to be fixed asap and what can wait a while.

If people cast their minds back to last years release they'll remember that there were a couple of pretty serious issues in the game when it was first released. So I say well done to Sega and SI this time round in terms of the games quality. Despite delving into 3D, which makes the game even more complex, there are fewer issues in the demo that there were last year, and possibly the year before that.

And people need to remember, games will always get released with some 'bugs' in them. the difference here is that the developer is listening to its customers feedback, as always, and is attempting to fix any issues asap.

[Flashman]

We'll swap you some teaspoons for some forks. We've loads of teaspoons.

Good to see the folk at SI treating their customers' concerns with respect

[chopper99]

Good to see the folk at SI treating their customers' concerns with respect

Oh get over yourself and stop being so precious. SI always listen to what's said on the boards and appreciate constructive criticism. Not only are they already working hard to fix issues found in the demo, but many of the new features in the game are things that have been requested and discussed in this very forum.

[thisboyshouts]

at least SI have got the match engine pretty much spot on, which is probably the most difficult yet important element to get right, it was the huge point of contention with last year's release. Much Kudos.

[Flashman]

Oh get over yourself and stop being so precious. SI always listen to what's said on the boards and appreciate constructive criticism. Not only are they already working hard to fix issues found in the demo, but many of the new features in the game are things that have been requested and discussed in this very forum.

Eliminating bugs > 'implementing' new features

I can't see how SI have learned anything at all from the utter shambles of last year's release. If they have they certainly haven't done anything to improve things, so either they're ignorant of their customers' issues or they just don't care about them.

[Wakers]

at least SI have got the match engine pretty much spot on, which is probably the most difficult yet important element to get right, it was the huge point of contention with last year's release. Much Kudos.

you mean apart from strikers still shooting straight at goalkeepers in one on ones and goalkeepers getting assists from hoofing the ball down the middle of the pitch far too often right?

Oh and closing down doesn't work properly again. I'm sure there's more, but those were the things i spotted after 5 games.

[playmaker]

you mean apart from strikers still shooting straight at goalkeepers in one on ones and goalkeepers getting assists from hoofing the ball down the middle of the pitch far too often right?

Oh and closing down doesn't work properly again. I'm sure there's more, but those were the things i spotted after 5 games.

People vastly overestimate real strikers ability to score from one on ones. SI check this stuff against real life stats.

Keepers getting too many assists is a bug - SI have admitted that.

The closing down is fine - the problem is partly people's perception of how easy it should be to close down and partly tactical. Just because you tell players to close down doesn't mean they always can. If closing down worked how people expect the ball would never get out of midfield.

[Wakers]

People vastly overestimate real strikers ability to score from one on ones. SI check this stuff against real life stats.

Keepers getting too many assists is a bug - SI have admitted that.

The closing down is fine - the problem is partly people's perception of how easy it should be to close down and partly tactical. Just because you tell players to close down doesn't mean they always can. If closing down worked how people expect the ball would never get out of midfield.

It's more to do with how rarely the striker will kick it anywhere except straight at the goalkeeper - more to do with how the engine shows it rather than what's going on in the engine.

Closing down is broken when you can't make your strikers close down full backs though.

[arrowst]

I work as a UAT Test Manager (albeit not for computer games), and I'm amazed by how easy some of the "testers" on here seem to think it is to deliver a defect free release. SI are working to tight deadlines, and as with any software, all defects will be categorised anywhere between showstopper and cosmetic, with a large majority of the latter (in most companies) usually stuck on a never to be seen again "to do" list. The majority of the "obvious" defects found in the demo have probably already been identified, but (I assume) deferred to a later patch release where they can be properly regression tested anyway

I have no knowledge on how SI approach their testing for the game (..although I know it must be a nightmare, given the amount of permutations in the game), but what we do know is that their post-release support is always excellent and if the games not right on release day, patches will be made available to make it right.

[dunner]

Just as a complete outsider who has no great knowledge of SI's procedures or schedule for this game.

Has the game gone into code lock or can some of these bugs like tyyyyyyping be fixed before the game is released?

Realistically, how long will it take for the first patch to come out if most of these bugs cant be fixed before game comes out?

[bigdunk]

The game was sent to manufacturing before the demo was released. There will be a release day patch, apparently including the typing bug fix.

[Ackter]

This thread isn't half as vitriolic as usual. The forums have gone soft this year. When I was working on the project I used to get people following me around the forums demanding I was sacked.

[homerjnick]

This thread isn't half as vitriolic as usual. The forums have gone soft this year. When I was working on the project I used to get people following me around the forums demanding I was sacked.

Yup I remember that....

[Wakers]

This thread isn't half as vitriolic as usual. The forums have gone soft this year. When I was working on the project I used to get people following me around the forums demanding I was sacked.

We can do that again if you want

[Ackter]

Wasn't on the project this year

[Wakers]

^ You were always alright when I was testing FML back in March/April - however sometimes you stuck up for things SI did when it was in defensible - I remember arguing with you about how unrealistic it was for formations with 3 attacking midfielders to be so strong

[Kriss]

It's more to do with how rarely the striker will kick it anywhere except straight at the goalkeeper - more to do with how the engine shows it rather than what's going on in the engine.

Closing down is broken when you can't make your strikers close down full backs though.

Now that's one thing I have mastered, seems you have to pay much more attention to each players attributes and, where he has them ppms.

The right strikers close full backs down reasonably well, the wrong ones seem to be on another planet.

3D seems to show better that a lot of the one on ones fail because the keeper get's out well, possibly too well it's true.

[Wakers]

Now that's one thing I have mastered, seems you have to pay much more attention to each players attributes and, where he has them ppms.

The right strikers close full backs down reasonably well, the wrong ones seem to be on another planet.

3D seems to show better that a lot of the one on ones fail because the keeper get's out well, possibly too well it's true.

Something to do with goalkeepers being as fast as superman, it takes them a split second to get from the goal line to the penalty spot!

[Kriss]

Something to do with goalkeepers being as fast as superman, it takes them a split second to get from the goal line to the penalty spot!

Yeh, too many get it right too often imo, playing with an Argentinian 2nd div team my GK is 34 and should need help onto the pitch:D but he comes off that line like a bat out of hell.

I don't think just one tweak is gonna get that right though.

[Wakers]

Goalkeepers in general need some work in the 3d engine. I see it quite often where a shot is straight at them from long range and they get behind it but it just hits them and bounces off I think they need more animations for them.

Didn't Miles say there were gonna be stepovers and stuff in the engine? anyone seen anything like that yet?

[Kriss]

Goalkeepers in general need some work in the 3d engine. I see it quite often where a shot is straight at them from long range and they get behind it but it just hits them and bounces off I think they need more animations for them.

Didn't Miles say there were gonna be stepovers and stuff in the engine? anyone seen anything like that yet?

Not yet, had a 30 yard lob which caught the GK off his line and he back peddled 10 yards very realistically (and in vain)

I think it's obvious the 3D can improve heaps, that's something to look forward to, atm it does a job.

[malleria]

So why have I only seen the players rooted one? Which has been the same in 2D for at least two versions, it's just you notice it in 3D.

I'd love some pink boots:D

I've seen two shots hit the crossbar and about 8 hit the post.

The bloke makes an exceptional point about pink boots!!! You can't of only seen them stand still once because they always do, and yes we wouldn't of noticed it in 2D, but isn't the whole point of 3D to change that? In the bug forum someone said they play 0 in midfield n play long ball, he is 5th in november and the opposition he said still stand still with the ball, WITH 0 IN MIDFIELD!!!

[Wakers]

The bloke makes an exceptional point about pink boots!!! You can't of only seen them stand still once because they always do, and yes we wouldn't of noticed it in 3D, but isn't the whole point of 3D to change that? In the bug forum someone said they play 0 in midfield n play long ball, he is 5th in november and the opposition he said still stand still with the ball, WITH 0 IN MIDFIELD!!!

that's class

I might try that tactic in FML