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Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

mr.rooney

Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?  

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  1. 1. Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?


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Pope of Pot, King of Nothi

Pope of Pot, King of Nothi

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Well, as with Microsoft you can install certain suites on up to three computers only. But, if in certain circumstances you call them and are convincing enough in your plight, then they have the capacity to reset your activations. Are we jumping the gun and assuming that there's no check or balance for this type of security?

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JonPaulWild

JonPaulWild

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I've not been happy about DRM in games and the the way DRM has been implemented into games. However, tonight I have pre-ordered FM2009 of Play.Com due to what I've read and seen so far of the game.

I had problems with Command and Conquer Tiberium Wars in that it crashed all the time and there was a huge thread over at the official forums about this and as of yet I don't think a patch has been released, so I'm not buying Red Alert 3 due to previous bad experience. Obviously if I find the DRM to be restrictive or if I have problems with the DRM over the next 10-12 months then I will perhaps not purchase Fm2010.

Anyway I hope the 2nd hand market for console and computer games thrive because there is nothing wrong with it. Miles used an analogy about keeping houses locked or cars secure with expensive or annoying security measures. Well, we can sell pretty much most things second hand like cars for huge amounts of money and car companies don't get a penny, and yet they mega mega money.

Game developers/publishers are not always the angels.

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Wakers

Wakers

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I am seriously amazed at the reaction the DRM decision is getting on these boards.

Come on people, are you honestly telling me that connecting to the internet OR making a 5 minute call JUST ONCE is such a pain in the ass? Please stop going on and on about principles and the "hassle" of authenticating the game prior to playing it. I really wish my biggest problem in life was worrying about a quick call to register a game!

Why would you have to install it more than 5 times? I don't understand that comment at all. I've had FM07 (didn't bother with 08) for 2 years now and I've only installed it ONCE. Why would I need to reinstall it? Even if my computer crashed that's still 2 installs out of 5, and before you comment about losing a token you can uninstall and get it back - that takes, what, all of 2 minutes?

As for the servers not being there in 2 years - yes they will. And even if they weren't you'd be playing FM2011 by then anyway and don't even try denying it.

Some people have multiple computers - i.e desktop and laptop.

Some people fall out of love with the game, uninstall it and then install it again later on. It's not hard to see why.

Why are we annoyed about this? Because it does nothing to pirates, it just affects those that buy the game.

Jez is somewhat clueless here, you sound like you don't understand the connections to the music industry?

I.e. releasing music that can only be played on one computer and then can't be transferred to mp3 players or cd's for example.

Or the cases of companies shutting down their online music services so that people who bought music can no longer listen to it without buying it again from somewhere else etc.

Simple question - why try to stop pirating with DRM when it doesn't actually effect pirates in any way, shape or form, while it does effect people who actually buy the game.

Answer? greed. They can't stop the pirates, so they'll try and shut down the trading of second hand games.

Also some people can't read, i never said I would be playing it on five computers at the same time.

Since i've had FM08, i've installed it at least 7 times. Two installs due to getting a new desktop and laptop. Once due to to laptop HDD failure, Once because i got annoyed with the 8.0.1 patch making the game even worse than it was when it was released, and the rest because my bro also wanted to play it.

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TheOriginalJez

TheOriginalJez

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I believe the whole point of going away from things like StarForce and Securom (the latter of which they've used in the past) was that they weren't removed on game install as well as the other much publicised issues on newer releases of Securom, Miles has explicitly said that on uninstall DRM will be 100% removed in FM09.

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jamesb123

jamesb123

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It's all speculation at the moment on how this DRM thing will affect the average gamer.

One thing I don't understand about it (which is probably glaringly obvious) what stops a person buying the game and then giving it to some mates (for maybe a quick fiver) to install on their computers? They would then have the game for basically nothing?

*and no I don't really understand it.. I was content with having to insert the disk everytime :D)

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Hamselv

Hamselv

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Depends how deep the DRM is written on my drive, if it stays there (ROOTWARE) then SI aint getting my money. I shall wait and see what people have to say upon purchase.

Almost all kinds of these DRM systems are installed as deep down in the system as possible. That's necessary because most of the DRM systems want to decide whether or not you are allow to have software based cd-drives (like daemon tools) installed on your computer. The only way to do that is to be buried deeper than the programs they wish to detect. So while FM is installed I would assume that the DRM is just as close to a rootkit as the ones used in other games. The positive thing is though, that SI promises that when the game is uninstalled the DRM will be as well.

With the other games you will have to run a small separate uninstaller after uninstalling the game to get rid of the DRM. Not a huge difference, but it does make things a bit simpler.

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Wakers

Wakers

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Almost all kinds of these DRM systems are installed as deep down in the system as possible. That's necessary because most of the DRM systems want to decide whether or not you are allow to have software based cd-drives (like daemon tools) installed on your computer. The only way to do that is to be buried deeper than the programs they wish to detect. So while FM is installed I would assume that the DRM is just as close to a rootkit as the ones used in other games. The positive thing is though, that SI promises that when the game is uninstalled the DRM will be as well.

With the other games you will have to run a small separate uninstaller after uninstalling the game to get rid of the DRM. Not a huge difference, but it does make things a bit simpler.

This is another issue. Daemon Tools is not an illegal program, and it can have perfectly legitimate uses. It's not right that over protective companies decide that I can't have it installed on my pc.

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Dirky Diggler

Dirky Diggler

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I just dont see what companies are trying to achieve using this method, Do they really think this will stop pirates in any way shape or form?

It didnt work with spore, it didnt work with bioshock, and it doesnt work with Windows, it doesnt work with Norton. Bigger companies than SI have tried to implement DRM with no success what makes them think they will attain any success?

The most likely thing it will do in the long run will make people turn to piracy, The game will most probably be leaked online before release date cracked with no DRM then probably SI will put funny code in which will cause funny bugs, and then as soon as the hackers know about it, they will fix it. People will download a cracked version to get around the DRM install crap, realise they can get it for free, so they will DL FM10 for free aswell and so on and so forth, so they may see a decrease in sales rather than an increase in the long term. SHould just stop wasting money on copy protection and put it into the game, use that money to hire more staff and release a game that isnt bug ridden.

This game was one of the quickest selling games of last year even with people pirating it left right and centre. People will buy good games regardless, it matters not if it has DRM or no security at all, It ends up on torrent and newsgroups sites easy to download regardless.

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N^G

N^G

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On that note, I hope that we don't have to authenticate through steam. I do actually have a steam account, but I have uninstalled it when I have finished games associated with it as I see it as a resource hogging piece of garbage.

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Wakers

Wakers

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It had DRM last year too ;)

I don't think it did - it had copy protection (which SI disabled/seriously limited in one of the patches) but not DRM.

Steam a resource hog? It only uses about 5mb doesn't it?

I don't like Steam because for some reason whenever i want to download a game through it, it uses 100% of our houses bandwidth, which doesn't make me popular with the rest of the family :D

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jakobx

jakobx

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If enough people opt for Steam I think it'll be fine... lets face it Steam must have seen some very heavy usage with stuff like HL2.

Yes they did and people were very ****ed that they couldnt play the game they bought until the problems were fixed later on. My experience with valve is one of the reasons i dont like DRM. If I pay a lot of money for a game, i dont want to ask some 3rd party for permission before i can play it.

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Wakers

Wakers

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Yes they did and people were very ****ed that they couldnt play the game they bought until the problems were fixed later on. My experience with valve is one of the reasons i dont like DRM. If I pay a lot of money for a game, i dont want to ask some 3rd party for permission before i can play it.

Steam does have a habit of going kaput every time there's a major release -all be it on American time, so it won't bother most of the UK people :D

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Wakers

Wakers

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Well yes, what they used is Securom, but in reality it acted as a form of DRM in that it did the same job their current system is doing - it prevented you installing fake copies. From what I've heard the new DRM does nothing but that.

Uhm, no it didn't?

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Wakers

Wakers

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It stopped you running the game without the disc, in theory, thus preventing illegal copies. The DRM was added as a way to replace that.

that's not DRM, that's just standard copy protection :)

But even that doesn't do anything - the system they used had known issues with common cheap drives used by many manufacturers of PC's that prevented people from playing the game.

Anyone with a pirated copy had access to a crack that disabled it.

The simple way to succeed is to make good games that are worth the money - this is something that SI nearly always do, so they shouldn't have a massive problem with piracy.

If however, the game is buggy as hell when released (FM08 anyone?) and the DRM system doesn't work properly, well, I can guarantee the first thing someone at SI will do is complain about the pirates ;)

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Hamselv

Hamselv

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This is another issue. Daemon Tools is not an illegal program, and it can have perfectly legitimate uses. It's not right that over protective companies decide that I can't have it installed on my pc.

Exactly! Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware I always make a cd image of the driver disc. That way I will always be able to install the hardware again later without having to search for the driver disc - Instead I will just mount the image in daemon tools. So, daemon tools is always one of the first programs I install after installing windows, and I have never understood why game companies are so arrogant that they feel it's okay for them to decide whether or not I should be able to do that.

The funny thing is that like everything else regarding DRM and copy protection, these things will only affect people like us that buy the game - The pirates will just download the game anyway without any DRM at all.

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Wakers

Wakers

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Exactly! Whenever I buy a new piece of hardware I always make a cd image of the driver disc. That way I will always be able to install the hardware again later without having to search for the driver disc - Instead I will just mount the image in daemon tools. So, daemon tools is always one of the first programs I install after installing windows, and I have never understood why game companies are so arrogant that they feel it's okay for them to decide whether or not I should be able to do that.

The funny thing is that like everything else regarding DRM and copy protection, these things will only affect people like us that buy the game - The pirates will just download the game anyway without any DRM at all.

Exactly the problem

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TheOriginalJez

TheOriginalJez

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that's not DRM, that's just standard copy protection :)

But even that doesn't do anything - the system they used had known issues with common cheap drives used by many manufacturers of PC's that prevented people from playing the game.

Anyone with a pirated copy had access to a crack that disabled it.

I realise that, but from what I've read the DRM has been added because SI didn't like the way Securom were going with recent versions. My point is that FM has always had a method of protecting the game effective or not and the idea of SI having something there isn't new. People are acting like this is the end of the world when in truth it's just a way to stop the game going the same way as Mass Effect and Spore that used Securom to great controversy.

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torsportsfan

torsportsfan

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I hope I don't get banned for this...

I pre-ordered WSM, over Steam, always have, bought 07 and 08 this year I am still purchasing WSM but I may "aquire" FM 09 so I dont have this stupid DRM, I should be allowed to install this game as many times as I want and I should be able to play it without activating it online. Like another person said, I still play very old games and someday I might want to revisit FM 09 down the line.

Your only hurting people that are buying this game

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Wakers

Wakers

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I realise that, but from what I've read the DRM has been added because SI didn't like the way Securom were going with recent versions. My point is that FM has always had a method of protecting the game effective or not and the idea of SI having something there isn't new. People are acting like this is the end of the world when in truth it's just a way to stop the game going the same way as Mass Effect and Spore that used Securom to great controversy.

The issue with Spore was that they only allowed 3 installs, which has now been upped to 5.

Spore's DRM is less strict than FM's to be honest, because it allows 5 installs on each machine.

It's the issue with restricting the people that pay for the game rather than the way its done.

They can't do anything about pirates so they'll get tougher with people who are honest. It doesn't make sense.

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outlaw640

outlaw640

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Oh man all this stuff about DRM is just sanctimonious BS, people getting on their high horses about some little thing that doesn't even matter. Miles has said in the specs thread that they will guarantee the authentication servers for as long as possible. People who crack/pirate the game also get a bum deal in terms of their gameplay, the game knows when it has been cracked and so all the rubbish teams qualify for world cups etc.

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Dirky Diggler

Dirky Diggler

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Oh man all this stuff about DRM is just sanctimonious BS, people getting on their high horses about some little thing that doesn't even matter. Miles has said in the specs thread that they will guarantee the authentication servers for as long as possible. People who crack/pirate the game also get a bum deal in terms of their gameplay, the game knows when it has been cracked and so all the rubbish teams qualify for world cups etc.

Nope not at all, maybe for the first week but after that it will be sorted in a crackfix. How many people work on making DRM? There are 1000s of times as many people working on cracking it. If its man made, it can be man un made.

I really dont see the point in DRM, it just hurts the companies in the long run.

I reckon the creators of DRM and most anti piracy measures just have tremendous marketing people and sales staff. This product will save you x amount of pounds and gain you more sales in the process!! My arse it will!! Its already lost one customer in me. I wont buy it again while its got the DRM protection on it, more will probably follow.

I may download it via steam if it gets dropped in price to around 20 quid other than that Ill wait and see

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Neji

Neji

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If there are restrictions to stop people pirating it then it means they get more sales

If only...

I just don't see the point in denying yourself football manager just because of the authentication. It's just being awkward for the sake of it and to be different.

They're not saying they are going to deny themselves FM, just that they won't buy it. Many people didn't buy Spore because of the DRM, doesn't mean they didn't get it another way.

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outlaw640

outlaw640

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Oh I see, so to spite SI and Sega people are going to pirate the game. Seems to be shooting yourself in the foot somewhat, the people who complain about SI targeting pirates but just end up affecting the little man turn to piracy, in turn leads to more measures being put in place to affect other people.

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Hamselv

Hamselv

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I really dont see the point in DRM, it just hurts the companies in the long run.

I wont buy it again while its got the DRM protection on it, more will probably follow.

I completely agree.

It's amazing that game publishers haven't learned a thing from the whole Bioshock/Spore DRM fiasco. I just canceled my pre-order of FM09 earlier today so I guess we are living proof that this has already cost SI money. Already now this DRM will have to make 2 potential pirates go out and buy the game out of fear that it won't get cracked, to justify its use.

As more and more people start to realize what DRM does, this number will hopefully increase to a point where even the people making the decisions to include DRM in their games will have to realize that the only thing DRM does is hurt sales.

Games will always get cracked. People that download games will always download games. If a game doesn't get cracked, then pirates won't go out and buy it, they will just download something else. So, why is it so hard to realize that DRM might turn loyal customers (like me) away, but it will do nothing to prevent piracy?

The funny thing is that SI is trying to convince us that this DRM is a really good thing. They start out by saying they have learned from the SecuROM debate, and then they present their DRM solution that contains all the same restrictions that make people hate SecuROM. Only difference is that SecuROM needs a separate uninstaller.

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Kazza

Kazza

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Hi

Been following this debate with interest.

I currently have Stardock (Impulse) installed on my PC (Gal Civ2 & SOTSE). Both can be downloaded as many times as one wishes. Stardock policy tends to be more customer focussed than say Steam DRM in that they do not think genuine buyers should suffer because of piracy. They have also spearheaded a campaign for greater customer focus via a charter.

I am ambivalent about DRM currently but certainly tend to shy away from having to install yet another program “Steam” even though it is no great hassle. Its', just that I would rather like to be able to choose what I install.

All those peeps who say “what's the big deal” - well it's about how you treat your customer and what is the priority you place on them rather than a supposedly anti-pirate stance. I do not believe that SI has really suffered from piracy as there is a massive loyal fan base out there, including me. People who pirate will I suspect very rarely buy the product if it is anti-pirate proof (though how you make it so is another matter).

So, we are left with the choice to buy or not to buy depending on your views that for me cover:

*DRM – no I do not like

*Telephone call – no issues there

*SI – who I trust and think will help their customers if they run up against difficulties

* DD or hard copy – both will be available

*FM09 which looks to be the best iteration on my view.

Overall, I will buy but will wait a few weeks to see what you peeps think of the game and any issues with the DRM set-up.

My main reason apart from that fact that FM09 is the best footie management sim is that SI are and appear to be a really good bunch of guys. They have not yet let me down in over 10yrs of buying their games.

K..:)

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