Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[cornwallgunner]

So you get five licenses buying the disk and by buying through Stream?

I could therefore put it on a friends machine as well as my own?

[Dirky Diggler]

IIRC the ps3 had an issue like this when it was first launched, you bought a game off psn and could install it on 5 ps3's , people were just going to their friends house, signing in on their psn account and downloading the game for them.

What i see happening is no effect on the internet piracy , but a rise in people going to school and sharing it with mates

Bingo, and now with facebook, myspace etc it makes it easier to tell more of your friends too

[Dirky Diggler]

So you get five licenses buying the disk and by buying through Stream?

I could therefore put it on a friends machine as well as my own?

No, you get one license to put on 5 machines owned by you, I guess.

No wait, actually I dont know, coz whats to stop you putting it on 5 machines you own in an office for 5 different people?

Lets all have a disco na na na na

Wibble wabble

[ElDani]

This is where this logic fails. The casual pirate you're talking about will not have been able to circumvent the cd-check without downloading an online content. It's not that easy to do and if someone has been able to do that then they surely have the knowledge to get around this DRM as well.

Possibly. On the other hand, take some PC magazine (or even gaming magazine) with an attached CD/DVD and you can make a pirate out of most novice users. It's very easy to use promoted software like Game Jackal to circumvent at least some copy protection mechanisms. The alternative is an attached cd/dvd burning software like Nero which can create images from your discs and other free software like Daemon Tools to mount said images.

This software and other alternatives can be found on these magazine attached discs every now and then ... and sometimes you even get a how-to article that explains not only the functions but also the purpose of the whole shebang.

A 'casual pirate' doesn't necessarily be online to pirate a game, he doesn't need to be an expert user and the standard knowledge of using windows applications and reading properly is good enough for some of the easiest copy protection mechanisms.

[Äktsjon Männ]

No, you get one license to put on 5 machines owned by you, I guess.

No wait, actually I dont know, coz whats to stop you putting it on 5 machines you own in an office for 5 different people?

Lets all have a disco na na na na

Wibble wabble

The license states it's for personal use. It means that it doesn't matter whose computer you install it on, as long as it's you playing the game.

So no, legally you can't do that.

[Dirky Diggler]

The license states it's for personal use. It means that it doesn't matter whose computer you install it on, as long as it's you playing the game.

So no, legally you can't do that.

SO what happens if 5 people own the license?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Possibly. On the other hand, take some PC magazine (or even gaming magazine) with an attached CD/DVD and you can make a pirate out of most novice users. It's very easy to use promoted software like Game Jackal to circumvent at least some copy protection mechanisms. The alternative is an attached cd/dvd burning software like Nero which can create images from your discs and other free software like Daemon Tools to mount said images.

This software and other alternatives can be found on these magazine attached discs every now and then ... and sometimes you even get a how-to article that explains not only the functions but also the purpose of the whole shebang.

A 'casual pirate' doesn't necessarily be online to pirate a game, he doesn't need to be an expert user and the standard knowledge of using windows applications and reading properly is good enough for some of the easiest copy protection mechanisms.

Seriously, how many people do you think have done what you just described? Furthermore, don't you think that when this 'casual' pirate reads these articles, installs this software, then messes around with images and whatnot, wouldn't he eventually do a little research to find out the much simpler ways to pirate?

BTW, every decent copy protection method available prevents direct images being made with standard programs such as Nero. Which means the images will simply not work as intended, the media will be there but it's not possible to run the game. As I said, it's not that simple and if one has the knowledge to get around issues that they'll no doubt face when trying to crack games on their own then they're smart enough to find other ways to pirate.

[Äktsjon Männ]

SO what happens if 5 people own the license?

5 people can't own one license. The game doesn't come with five licenses either, as it's misleadingly repeated on these forums. It's one license for one person, legally you're not allowed to share it.

[andysafc]

I found some news on a website stating that Sony are being investergated after putting DRM on discs, anyway here is the quote...

“Installations of secret software that create security risks are intrusive and unlawful,” said FTC Chairman Deborah Platt Majoras. “Consumers’ computers belong to them, and companies must adequately disclose unexpected limitations on the customary use of their products so consumers can make informed decisions regarding whether to purchase and install that content.”

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/sony.shtm

So where’s the disclosure about the DRM and limited activations on the product labeling?

[tarbanrael]

You can't be serious

All this DRM will be cracked out of the game most likely before the 14th of november. Chances are pirates will be playing the game a day or two before legitimate customers can authenticate theirs.

yes as with many games or dvds, the pirate version is usually on the net before the official release date.

DRMs are, i suppose a knee jerk reaction from the industry. My view on it is that it is unnecessary as anyway, it will be broken. Allegedly there to stop piracy, it has repeatedly failed to do so and caused problems for regular users. The simple truth as i see it, is that if a game is good, then it will sell. Take oblivion, it was good (not that good, but good) and yet there was no protection to speak of. Yet it sold very well worldwide.

Fm will sell well if it's a good game. I for one will be buying my dvd shortly.

For a very good insight on how DRM are perceived, just go to amazon.co.uk and type spore. Read some of the comments.

[ZIRA - NK Jedinstvo Bihac]

i wont have problems with DRM... i dont plan to play this game more than 2-3 years... so 5 slots is more than enough since i play on 1 laptop.

DRM is used to "SLOW" piracy a bit, NOT to STOP it.

[Äktsjon Männ]

i wont have problems with DRM... i dont plan to play this game more than 2-3 years... so 5 slots is more than enough since i play on 1 laptop.

DRM is used to "SLOW" piracy a bit, NOT to STOP it.

The problem is though it fails to do either.

[chopper99]

While it won't stop me buying the game I'm pretty disappointed that SI have gone down the DRM route.

Yes, it's only a simple on-line registration and all that and yes it's very little initial effort. But my problem is, what's the point? This will not affect piracy in any way and will only inconvinience paying customers. On top of that there's the excellent point made by Amaroq about buying the game a few years down the line as people still do now with old CM games.

Basically what SI are doing by going down this route is having no negative affect on the pirates but is having negative effects on paying consumers, especially those who wish to buy or sell the game second hand or those who decide to re-live the past and try to play the game again in 10 years time.

Thinking about it I genuinely can't think of a single benifit to SI in removing the need to have the disk in the machine and instead using this ridiculous DRM method. As people have already mentioned, rather than increasing sales it's more likely that people are going to share the game if they can install it on 5 machines and none of them actually need the disc.

[feedthegoat]

While it won't stop me buying the game I'm pretty disappointed that SI have gone down the DRM route.

Yes, it's only a simple on-line registration and all that and yes it's very little initial effort. But my problem is, what's the point? This will not affect piracy in any way and will only inconvinience paying customers. On top of that there's the excellent point made by Amaroq about buying the game a few years down the line as people still do now with old CM games.

Basically what SI are doing by going down this route is having no negative affect on the pirates but is having negative effects on paying consumers, especially those who wish to buy or sell the game second hand or those who decide to re-live the past and try to play the game again in 10 years time.

I asked about selling the game on second-hand and apparantly it's not allowed as you have bought the license. I think they should try telling that to the hundreds (if not thousands) of people that I've seen selling PC games, FM and CM included, at boot sales as well as places like charity shops, second hand shops and even places like Cash Converters and at one point Gamestation.

[sean_lufc]

What So you can't play the game until you authenticate it? what a load of ****.

The computer that i will be installing the game on won't have internet connection, what can i do?

[TheOriginalJez]

Strictly speaking everyone who play the game has to purchase a license from the copyright holder, and again strictly speaking as copyright law goes you don't have a right to pass that license on without permission from the copyright holder - so what SI are doing is well within the law and the second hand sellers are strictly speaking acting illegally (yes it's ground that noone used to really care about but the only people forcing them to is the pirates who'll claim they just 'bought it second hand'. blame them not si)

This is where this logic fails. The casual pirate you're talking about will not have been able to circumvent the cd-check without downloading an online content. It's not that easy to do and if someone has been able to do that then they surely have the knowledge to get around this DRM as well.

Actually... I have daemon tools and I don't even pirate - I use it to check DVDs and CDs before I load them to disk (of content I own the copyright to or have permission to use). All I'd have to do to run FM08 without disk is to rip the disk contents, archive them as an ISO image and add securom emulation... I realise I'm in a vast minority using daemon tools for legal means but talking of casual pirates I can't imagine there's many that don't have it and thus can't use it the way I described... but daemon tools wouldn't circumvent this DRM

[TheOriginalJez]

What So you can't play the game until you authenticate it? what a load of ****.

The computer that i will be installing the game on won't have internet connection, what can i do?

Phone... and I think there's gonna be a freephone number for UK so...

[sean_lufc]

Can someone explain this in idiots terms for me.

So i Buy the game from the shop, go home install it or do i have to ring a number first?

[rlipscombe]

As far as i am concerned it won't affect me at all. i don't see the point in changing it but if that's what they want to do then fair enough. Up to them. i can see that it may impact on second-hand buyers but normally after being on sale a few months the price comes down in retailers anyway. it may also stop people playing the game before the release date, but they are well within their right to do so. don't get me wrong, i want to play the game ASAP like anyone else, but if i have to wait 1 more day then so be it. i've waited long enough for it already.

for all of those who have a real problem there is a game called Championship Manager........

[TheOriginalJez]

Can someone explain this in idiots terms for me.

So i Buy the game from the shop, go home install it or do i have to ring a number first?

When you install it you'll need to get another number to put into the game to make it run, like you'd get codes on the back of the box with some games and you put that in installation. To get the number you'll have to either by net or by phone get a code to finish the installation, we're told it's a 30 minute job and there could (/is, i'm not sure) be a freephone number for the main markets (UK, scandinavia etc)

[sean_lufc]

will the phone be computer operated? Release day will be mayhem with 1000's of people trying to get through.

[TheOriginalJez]

I would imagine so it'd be a bit silly to have a callcentre for it methinks

[sean_lufc]

So your given an authenication code which you can use on upto 5 computers?

[TheOriginalJez]

No, you need to get a seperate code for each install. And note it should only be for personal use, you don't get 5 licenses as someones said already, you get 5 installs for personal use. and if you uninstall one you get that install back.

[philly_flyer10]

i wont have problems with DRM... i dont plan to play this game more than 2-3 years... so 5 slots is more than enough since i play on 1 laptop.

DRM is used to "SLOW" piracy a bit, NOT to STOP it.

The only thing it will stop is the people who buy it, I bet people wont be able to get through on the phone lines and possibly the servers go down too, meanwhile people who pirate it will be playing problem free.

[reason]

it will probably be better this way. fm08 was too easy to play with a pirate copy, u dont need the disk for fm08 if its pirated, at least this way it needs authenticating. instead of simply running an image

[zeke]

Piracy killed one of SI's previous games, EHM, which had a pretty good fan base behind it. It's no wonder they take such measures.

Get used to DRM, folks. Most software will be housed online, rather than on your computer, in less than five years most likely. That includes operating systems, word processing, etc...it'll all be part of the same cloud. Then you won't own anything. You'll just rent access.

To be honest Piracy really did not kill off EHM series. No! This has been discussed to death and to blame piracy on this issue is just ridicilious. Oh, this is a topic for another forum and this thread is not the place.

Actually didn't know about DRM protection. After reading a lot and hearing out some of my friends experience regarding DRM I will skip FM09. DRM is quite intrusive. Maybe not too much of an hassle but this is principle. Just my 2cents.

[data6930]

Hmmm, this is exactly what I thought would happen, the DRM wont stop iit being pirated but will stop 22% of potential consumers from buying the game.

A perfect example of why DRM doesnt work, only affects legitimate buyers and costs the company sales, rather than improving sales as the DRM manufacturers obviously brainwash companies into thinking.

I think the point you make is correct 22% of those polled who would have bought the game have now decided not to that is a fair old percentage. If SI think a potential 22% loss of sales is worth the introduction of DRM then it seems to be a big gamble, especially as you point out the game will get cracked any way!

[data6930]

Hmmm, this is exactly what I thought would happen, the DRM wont stop iit being pirated but will stop 22% of potential consumers from buying the game.

A perfect example of why DRM doesnt work, only affects legitimate buyers and costs the company sales, rather than improving sales as the DRM manufacturers obviously brainwash companies into thinking.

As far as i am concerned it won't affect me at all. i don't see the point in changing it but if that's what they want to do then fair enough. Up to them. i can see that it may impact on second-hand buyers but normally after being on sale a few months the price comes down in retailers anyway. it may also stop people playing the game before the release date, but they are well within their right to do so. don't get me wrong, i want to play the game ASAP like anyone else, but if i have to wait 1 more day then so be it. i've waited long enough for it already.

for all of those who have a real problem there is a game called Championship Manager........

...........or FM2008

[TheOriginalJez]

'DRM' is a coverall name, done properly it shouldn't be intrusive. just some systems give it a bad name if you have doubts I'd reccomend waiting til others have tried it but i'd suggest don't skip it entirely on that. we don't know what system si have used

[Watford_fc_4_lyf]

I beleive that this will lose money. Apart from the people that will not buy the game due to this system sureley many people will gameshare. I have spoken to 6 of my mates, we are all avid FM players. None of us have ever needed to reformat our computers or anything like that. All of us just want to play on 1 computer, our laptops. We have decided to but just 2 copies of the game between us and if anything does happen we have 3 spare authentications anyway. 2 x £25 = £50 or just over £7 each. Otherwise SI would have got 7 x £25 = £175! In my mind SI have me £18 with the new system. NICE ONE

[Hamselv]

I beleive that this will lose money. Apart from the people that will not buy the game due to this system sureley many people will gameshare. I have spoken to 6 of my mates, we are all avid FM players. None of us have ever needed to reformat our computers or anything like that. All of us just want to play on 1 computer, our laptops. We have decided to but just 2 copies of the game between us and if anything does happen we have 3 spare authentications anyway. 2 x £25 = £50 or just over £7 each. Otherwise SI would have got 7 x £25 = £175! In my mind SI have me £18 with the new system. NICE ONE

According to the license agreement that move isn't allowed, so that would make you just as much pirates as if two of you bought the game and five of you downloaded it illegally.

What I do find interesting is that SI claim to actually be able to see if a copy of the game is installed five times by one guy on his computer(s), or if it's installed on five computers belonging to five different people. The only way that would be possible is to gather a fair amount of personal information during the activation, which would make this DRM quite a bit less innocent than what we've been told.

[feedthegoat]

Be interested to know what SI's opinion is on the fact that just over a fifth of people who have voted on this poll, say they will not be buying their product this year.

Fair enough it's only a small portion of the entire FM purchasing public. I have initially voted "Yes" although if there was an option for "At the moment yes" then I would have chosen that.

[DivineOne]

i wont have problems with DRM... i dont plan to play this game more than 2-3 years... so 5 slots is more than enough since i play on 1 laptop.

DRM is used to "SLOW" piracy a bit, NOT to STOP it.

I don't think DRM has anything to do with piracy. It just stops people from buying these games second hand, and does quite good at doing so too.

[data6930]

I actually think SI would have been better fully explaining the DRM system a long while ago then posted a Poll to ascertain what FM users feelings were towards this move before making a decision to go with it. Surely they should have put this issue before all football manager users via this forum first!

SI has been excellent at listening to what us as Football Manager users want from there game but have not given people the chance to give feedback on this very important topic before going ahead and making it a part of buying/playing the game.

I think SI may well regret this move if this poll is anything to go by.

I find it a bit worrying that a game for the people appears to have be driven in a direction dictated by Sega.

[Wakers]

it will probably be better this way. fm08 was too easy to play with a pirate copy, u dont need the disk for fm08 if its pirated, at least this way it needs authenticating. instead of simply running an image

Completely wrong. The pirated versions won't have any DRM on them, so it'll be the same as FM08.

[feedthegoat]

I actually think SI would have been better fully explaining the DRM system a long while ago then posted a Poll to ascertain what FM users feelings were towards this move before making a decision to go with it. Surely they should have put this issue before all football manager users via this forum first!

SI has been excellent at listening to what us as Football Manager users want from there game but have not given people the chance to give feedback on this very important topic before going ahead and making it a part of buying/playing the game.

I think SI may well regret this move if this poll is anything to go by.

I find it a bit worrying that a game for the people appears to have be driven in a direction dictated by Sega.

Totally agree. I think that the whole DRM is more to do with Sega than with SI.

Would anyone from Sega care to comment on this?

[Wakers]

Totally agree. I think that the whole DRM is more to do with Sega than with SI.

Would anyone from Sega care to comment on this?

Miles said he decided on it, so you can't really pass the buck here.

[feedthegoat]

Miles said he decided on it, so you can't really pass the buck here.

Hmmmm...that's interesting. Wasn't aware of that.

[data6930]

Miles said he decided on it, so you can't really pass the buck here.

Perhaps he did with someone from Sega leaning very heavy on his shoulders!

[Dave.C43]

My answer to the original question is a resounding YES

Having faithfully bought & played every version of the game since its inception,the implementation of this draconian method of validation will mean I shall be obtaining my copy of "09" by other means!

I must congratulate S.I on managing to alienate approx 20% of their potential customers in one misguided & very misinformed move

[neilb242]

This phone line - is it a freephone number, or will it be £1 a minute line? So yet another £5 on top of the purchase price?

I'm against this, as like people say it affects us normal users more than the pirates. Plus, this 5 install thing seems neither here nor there - you can basically give a 'free' copy to friends, and they won't need to pay for the game now they don't need a CD. It seems like a token gesture really.

[TheOriginalJez]

Phone line will be local rate or freephone.

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles said he decided on it, so you can't really pass the buck here.

I don't think I've commented on the copy protection decision making process at all, Wakers - can you provide the quote where I said I decided on it? It would have been a bad disservice to the people who were involved in deciding how the system would work this year if I had said that, and those that worked on the system.

And to everyone else, I'm reading this thread with interest. You'll find the answer to the majority of your questions, concerns and points on the sticky thread at the top of the page where the demo and system spec were also announced.

[zeke]

Just to clarify why I voted yes.

It is nothing to with game itself. It actually does look good and reworked regens/transfer system etc are good to hear. I think the development team has done a good job with these issues.

This is actually really is matter of principle. Internet is full of stuff regarding the DRM security. Just use google and read about. I really don't like the idea of an intrusive 3rd party program installed deep down in the operating system. If this is the way of future game industry (and it looks like it will) than it is sad news indeed for us all.

Personally I think this is an huge mistake in the longrun and I won't support such things.

As said the FM09 looks great but... and NO i do not condone Piracy at all.

[Wakers]

I don't think I've commented on the copy protection decision making process at all, Wakers - can you provide the quote where I said I decided on it? It would have been a bad disservice to the people who were involved in deciding how the system would work this year if I had said that, and those that worked on the system.

And to everyone else, I'm reading this thread with interest. You'll find the answer to the majority of your questions, concerns and points on the sticky thread at the top of the page where the demo and system spec were also announced.

Apologies Miles but I'm sure you posted a blog or something somewhere where you decided against using SecureRom and instead decided to a different route - i.e. the DRM.

You should also be aware that most of us have read that sticky - it still doesn't make the use of DRM justified at all, especially not one that is "spore-like".

[eshaan]

This is from user comments on Spore on amazon.co.uk

If you buy spore you'll probably be tempted to take it back to the shop after a couple of hours play. I know it can be tempting to see what its like, so find a friend who has it and try it out. Whatever you do, don't spend your money.

First, the DRM aspect:

If you're thinking: "Why is everyone annoyed at the DRM thing? I only install games once or twice anyway."

That is exactly what EA want you to think.

The install limit is not just deducted everytime you reinstall the game, there are many other factors such as windows or hardware updates which will result in your limit reducing. Say you or a parent upgrades your PC or reset windows, you will be losing install numbers without even noticing. If the game is having problems and you need to reinstall, EA says that's your fault, and it will cost you. If you install the game on your laptop and PC, that will cost you too.

This is kind of worrying if you do buy Spore but what i want to know is will installs be reduced when u update your computer for FM too? I doubt it will but can someone please confirm this...

[treble_yell_:-)]

it will probably be better this way. fm08 was too easy to play with a pirate copy, u dont need the disk for fm08 if its pirated, at least this way it needs authenticating. instead of simply running an image

Amusingly this method actually makes it easier to pirate

[TheOriginalJez]

Spore used Securom. FM09 not using Securom. FM09 using very different system. The similarity in a number being present against the word 'install' ends at it being a number - unlike the system used with spore we get our installs back when we're not using them. I'm sorry but with all the info we've been given I don't see how you can claim to have read the sticky and still be citing spore. Maybe I'm way off base here cos I seem to be in the minority (posting anyway...)

[Wakers]

Spore used Securom. FM09 not using Securom. FM09 using very different system. The similarity in a number being present against the word 'install' ends at it being a number - unlike the system used with spore we get our installs back when we're not using them. I'm sorry but with all the info we've been given I don't see how you can claim to have read the sticky and still be citing spore. Maybe I'm way off base here cos I seem to be in the minority (posting anyway...)

Dude, learn the difference between Copy-protection and DRM PLEASE. I said this to you two days ago and you still havent.

Why is it "spore-like"? Because it gives us limited installs. End of Story.

It's just a greedy way of making more money at the customer's expense, and its not right. Just because your favourite game publisher does it doesn't make it any better than the system EA use.