do clubs accept smaller offers from other clubs than from human managers?

[madeirabhoy]

I've often thought this before. any time you try to buy the finished article who's say worth 10 million, it costs you at least 30m but then you see other clubs buying similar players for more reasonable amounts, and I've just saw one.

Daley Blind, my scout just mentioned him so i tried to buy him for my celtic from monaco. he's worth 14.5 m. i suggest that, they want 42, i suggest 16 they want 42, i suggest 20 they want 42, i only have 22.5m so i put that in as a proper offer.

then i see man city's blind offer accepted. 21m rising to 28m.

so i check whats come back from them...they want 38m plus add ons.....

[Cougar2010]

Its not specific to whether a club is human or AI managed but the club does make a difference as well as the situation.

In your example Monaco are a bigger club playing in a league with a bigger reputation compared to Celtic and the player probably isn't that interested in joining you. In that situation Monaco feel comfortable quoting a higher price with the intention of putting you off bidding therefore allowing them to keep the player.

However when Man City bid they have to take it seriously as Man City have a larger rep & are playing in a higher rep league and the player is probably keen on the move. In that situation they negotiate the best price they feel they can get.

[jozza800]

It's been happening for years.

[Cougar2010]

It's been happening for years.

So wrong and shows a massive misunderstanding of how it works

[louissiscool]

So wrong and shows a massive misunderstanding of how it works

How does it work then?

If a club sells a player for less then you offered in the same window you can't say that is logical at all.

[Cougar2010]

How does it work then?

If a club sells a player for less then you offered in the same window you can't say that is logical at all.

Of course it is, simply by making an offer and having it rejected has influenced the situation in some way which could lead to a club feeling forced to accept a lower offer as its the only one on the table further down the road.

There are improvements that could be made but it works fairly well as it stands with situations changing all the time dependant on what happens in the game world.

EDIT

In terms of jozza's comment I'm presuming he is describing a common situation some users see where they have an offer fairly rejected which leads to the player becoming unhappy and an AI club taking the opportunity to sign the player at a lower price. The user has influenced the situation by indirectly causing the player to become unhappy putting pressure on the selling club and lowering the asking price but then failed to follow it up at a later date.

[Marabak]

How does it work then?

If a club sells a player for less then you offered in the same window you can't say that is logical at all.

Read Cougar's reply above and all will be revealed...

[louissiscool]

Of course it is, simply by making an offer and having it rejected has influenced the situation in some way which could lead to a club feeling forced to accept a lower offer as its the only one on the table further down the road.

There are improvements that could be made but it works fairly well as it stands with situations changing all the time dependant on what happens in the game world.

EDIT

In terms of jozza's comment I'm presuming he is describing a common situation some users see where they have an offer fairly rejected which leads to the player becoming unhappy and an AI club taking the opportunity to sign the player at a lower price. The user has influenced the situation by indirectly causing the player to become unhappy putting pressure on the selling club and lowering the asking price but then failed to follow it up at a later date.

So what your basically saying is the AI cut off there nose to spite there face?

What would make sense is if they then offered the player to you for the better price you originally offered and decide to sell him rather then just sell him for less because you didn't offer again for some reason or other.

The only other time this would make sense in FM if you were a rival club other then that you cannot say it is logical to sell a player for less two days later to a different club.

[Cougar2010]

So what your basically saying is the AI cut off there nose to spite there face?

I don't know if its what you imply but if it is you need to stop viewing FM as you vs the AI.

Although other teams are all controlled by AI managers they are all different & independent.

What would make sense is if they then offered the player to you for the better price you originally offered and decide to sell him rather then just sell him for less because you didn't offer again for some reason or other.

The only other time this would make sense in FM if you were a rival club other then that you cannot say it is logical to sell a player for less two days later to a different club.

As it stands each transfer offer is a standalone offer which is accepted or rejected on its own merits. Once that has happened it is forgotten about and the game world moves on.

It has been suggested in the past that perhaps teams should have some "transfer offer memory" so to speak and I think its a possible improvement that SI could look to add in the future.

[louissiscool]

I don't know if its what you imply but if it is you need to stop viewing FM as you vs the AI.

Although other teams are all controlled by AI managers they are all different & independent.

I wasn't saying the AI is out to get me if that is what you meant i am just saying it seems a poor decision and makes the AI seem kind of stupid probably goes hand in hand with the AI bidding the same bid you reject over and over again.

As it stands each transfer offer is a standalone offer which is accepted or rejected on its own merits. Once that has happened it is forgotten about and the game world moves on.

It has been suggested in the past that perhaps teams should have some "transfer offer memory" so to speak and I think its a possible improvement that SI could look to add in the future.

The idea of the AI having a memory is something i do like the idea of but only if it worked really well.

[grahamf]

I've found if you get lucky with the new scouting system you can get some really good deals. I signed Bonnazoli from Inter after a scouting report came back saying there were rumours he was unsettled. Made a bid of 14 million and it was accepted right away.

I manage Roma who are listed as rivals, if anything signing a 22 year old current Italy international version of Bonnazoli who scored 30 league goals in his last season in Milan is probably too cheap.

[louissiscool]

I've found if you get lucky with the new scouting system you can get some really good deals. I signed Bonnazoli from Inter after a scouting report came back saying there were rumours he was unsettled. Made a bid of 14 million and it was accepted right away.

I manage Roma who are listed as rivals, if anything signing a 22 year old current Italy international version of Bonnazoli who scored 30 league goals in his last season in Milan is probably too cheap.

No one is debating if clubs charge too much or not.

We are talking about AI needing to improve in regards to selling players for less to other teams after your bid of more money was rejected because effectively they are losing out every time and it doesn't really make sense.

[big78mac]

I just had a player I wanted to sign turn down 8k (because he wanted £12k) a week to play for me in the championship to join a league one club for £5k a week - offered first team football for both.

[hluraven]

As with the match engine, the game doesn't even know which offer was from an AI or human team.

Longer term the clubs should remember past bids more and check if the club is still interested, but I am fairly sure that is beyond current memory/processing as the game would have to remember months of offers for every player in the game and cross-reference repeatedly.

[Jayddwoo]

Its not specific to whether a club is human or AI managed but the club does make a difference as well as the situation.

In your example Monaco are a bigger club playing in a league with a bigger reputation compared to Celtic and the player probably isn't that interested in joining you. In that situation Monaco feel comfortable quoting a higher price with the intention of putting you off bidding therefore allowing them to keep the player.

However when Man City bid they have to take it seriously as Man City have a larger rep & are playing in a higher rep league and the player is probably keen on the move. In that situation they negotiate the best price they feel they can get.

That's just a stupid argument. If anything it would be the other way around.

They know Man City have the spending power and the appeal to get their player so they'd ask for more money, not less. You see instances like this all the time in real football. Never have I seen a club go "Oooohhh, Man City have a real chance of attracting our player, better lower our price unless he gets unhappy"

[Cougar2010]

That's just a stupid argument. If anything it would be the other way around.

They know Man City have the spending power and the appeal to get their player so they'd ask for more money, not less. You see instances like this all the time in real football. Never have I seen a club go "Oooohhh, Man City have a real chance of attracting our player, better lower our price unless he gets unhappy"

Way to miss the point

[louissiscool]

Case and point there is really not an argument for AI clubs getting cheaper deals for players then you unless your rivals in the same division or whatever so there does need to be something in place to stop this from happening.

[Cougar2010]

Case and point there is really not an argument for AI clubs getting cheaper deals for players then you unless your rivals in the same division or whatever so there does need to be something in place to stop this from happening.

There is no argument because whatever an AI club can do so can one managed by a human user. The reason it doesn't always happen is because the human user is either not as efficient at negotiating as an AI club or chooses the wrong time to make an approach both of which are down to the human user and the way they interact with the other clubs.

[Jayddwoo]

Way to miss the point

Way to miss what point? If FM is doing this then that's stupid. They want the game to be as realistic as possible, this isn't realistic.

[louissiscool]

There is no argument because whatever an AI club can do so can one managed by a human user. The reason it doesn't always happen is because the human user is either not as efficient at negotiating as an AI club or chooses the wrong time to make an approach both of which are down to the human user and the way they interact with the other clubs.

I don't see why your defending this is it doesn't make sense for a club to sell a player for less to another team (unless your title rivals) you can say that is the way the game works and yes you are right it is, but that doesn't make it correct or realistic in fact it is illogical and benefits no one especially the player(as in yourself) and the selling club who lose out on money.

Oh and as for the game not being able to remember bids that isn't true either yesterday on my inter save i bid on timo werner it resulted in me withdrawing in the end he complained so i decided to bid again and there appeared my last offer so there for in some way the game does remember your bid already so surely this can somehow be implemented to stop clubs selling players for less then they could of had in the same window.

[todo por ella]

I've often thought this before. any time you try to buy the finished article who's say worth 10 million, it costs you at least 30m but then you see other clubs buying similar players for more reasonable amounts, and I've just saw one.

Daley Blind, my scout just mentioned him so i tried to buy him for my celtic from monaco. he's worth 14.5 m. i suggest that, they want 42, i suggest 16 they want 42, i suggest 20 they want 42, i only have 22.5m so i put that in as a proper offer.

then i see man city's blind offer accepted. 21m rising to 28m.

so i check whats come back from them...they want 38m plus add ons.....

So you wouldn't have had the money to bid for him anyway with a total fee of 28m, plus I'm guessing an extra 2,3m in signing on fee and agent fees?

It seems like you and Manchester City were pretty much on equal terms with the bidding, you put in a bid of 21m and they held out for 38, knowing that a counter-offer would most likely give them around 30 as it did with Citeh. You should have gone one more round of negotiations, although with the new minimum set at 28m sadly it looks like you were priced out.

I've never seen any bias towards AI managers in terms of transfers, and there are always bargains out there.

[CityAndColour]

Its not specific to whether a club is human or AI managed but the club does make a difference as well as the situation.

In your example Monaco are a bigger club playing in a league with a bigger reputation compared to Celtic and the player probably isn't that interested in joining you. In that situation Monaco feel comfortable quoting a higher price with the intention of putting you off bidding therefore allowing them to keep the player.

However when Man City bid they have to take it seriously as Man City have a larger rep & are playing in a higher rep league and the player is probably keen on the move. In that situation they negotiate the best price they feel they can get.

Wouldn't they just negotiate the price they want and let the player choose his club?

Asking for more from a club because the player doesn't want to go there doesn't make any sense - if they player doesn't want to go there then it doesn't really matter what the agreed price is. Plus surely more clubs bidding = more leverage to get a better price?

[R.P. McMurphy]

In your example Monaco are a bigger club playing in a league with a bigger reputation compared to Celtic and the player probably isn't that interested in joining you. In that situation Monaco feel comfortable quoting a higher price with the intention of putting you off bidding therefore allowing them to keep the player.

However when Man City bid they have to take it seriously as Man City have a larger rep & are playing in a higher rep league and the player is probably keen on the move. In that situation they negotiate the best price they feel they can get.

Real word does not work that way.

First. It is up to player to decide if he want to move when club has accepted offer.

Second. Bigger clubs usually have to pay more because they can, lesser clubs offer less because it the best they can offer. IRL bigger clubs have pay more because smaller clubs see their interest as a chance to make lot of money.

I respect your effort to defent FM from critic but it seems you try to see all FM's bugs as real word phenomenons.

[Guest]

The reason FM works in the way Cougar has described is available memory, AI clubs already remember what they have bid for a player to ensure they do not repeatedly make the same offer time & time again, to introduce a similar mechanic for offers received would probably double the RAM requirement, until the vast majority of FM players move to 64bit bit systems with at least 8GB of RAM there just isn't enough addressable memory in the hardware userbase.

SI have repeated this a number of times & it is an aspect of the transfer system that they do want to improve on once the hardware/software setup of the average FM customer catches up with the technical requirements.

Edit: The point about inflated prices for Elite/oil-rich clubs is a separate consideration & one that already plays a part in FM although maybe not as much as it does irl, can you imagine the rage if someone managing either Man City or Man Utd had to pay 50% more for a player from Fiorentina than Inter Milan? That's the sort of outcome a truly realistic model would produce.

[MTM1977]

I have run in to strange thing with loan deals a few times.

AI club has refused my request to loan a player, because of the player "is needed for the first team".

However, at the same time they have accepted a loan request from AI club.

And it has been in such cases that the club owning the player isn't even in the same country/continent, so they would have no reason not to loan a player to my club.

[Guest]

Can you report any such examples in the bugs forum.

[MTM1977]

Can you report any such examples in the bugs forum.

Yes, i know and i should have, but i forgot at that time.

It was several seasons back in my save, so can't report it anymore

I will try to remember the next time, if it happens again.

[HUNT3R]

The reason FM works in the way Cougar has described is available memory, AI clubs already remember what they have bid for a player to ensure they do not repeatedly make the same offer time & time again, to introduce a similar mechanic for offers received would probably double the RAM requirement, until the vast majority of FM players move to 64bit bit systems with at least 8GB of RAM there just isn't enough addressable memory in the hardware userbase.

SI have repeated this a number of times & it is an aspect of the transfer system that they do want to improve on once the hardware/software setup of the average FM customer catches up with the technical requirements.

Edit: The point about inflated prices for Elite/oil-rich clubs is a separate consideration & one that already plays a part in FM although maybe not as much as it does irl, can you imagine the rage if someone managing either Man City or Man Utd had to pay 50% more for a player from Fiorentina than Inter Milan? That's the sort of outcome a truly realistic model would produce.

I had a strange interaction that's probably related to this. I scouted a player and my scout said the player would be available for 8.5m. Another AI club put in a bid for 8.5m and it was accepted. I have a big transfer budget due to selling players, but being cheap, I tried to buy him for less. I tried lower and in the end suggested 7.5m and they negotiated to (around) 20m, which was ridiculous considering the scout report and accepted bid.

I gave up and thought "screw it" and just bid (not suggest terms) 8.5m, not thinking they'd actually accept based on their negotiations with me. A day later the bid was accepted. I guess having a deal in the bag and knowing I have lots of money, they tried to screw me over.

[MTM1977]

I had a strange interaction that's probably related to this. I scouted a player and my scout said the player would be available for 8.5m. Another AI club put in a bid for 8.5m and it was accepted. I have a big transfer budget due to selling players, but being cheap, I tried to buy him for less. I tried lower and in the end suggested 7.5m and they negotiated to (around) 20m, which was ridiculous considering the scout report and accepted bid.

I gave up and thought "screw it" and just bid (not suggest terms) 8.5m, not thinking they'd actually accept based on their negotiations with me. A day later the bid was accepted. I guess having a deal in the bag and knowing I have lots of money, they tried to screw me over.

Similar things have happened to me also. I have bid "under value" meaning that i bid less than my scouts think they would want for the player.

Then they counter with something absurd (like 2x or 3x the actual reasonable value).

Then i up my offer a bit and just submit the offer to them. Sometimes they accept, sometimes they don't, but if they don't, they might counter it with something reasonable.

[HUNT3R]

Maybe they get annoyed at us being cheap.

[MTM1977]

Maybe they get annoyed at us being cheap.

Very much possible

Besides, i do the same thing if i get a bid that is way too low in my opinion. I counter with something much higher (assuming that i want to sell).

One thing came to my mind about accepting bids.

Maybe the AI is doing same thing that for example i often do.

Let's say i have player with asking price of 10M

I get 3 offers from different clubs, all offering 10M.

I accept one of them, but i reject two of them with the "offer wasn't good enough" reason.

Why? I am hoping that they would come back with a higher offer, then i would accept that and reject the earlier approved 10M bid with the "not good enough" reason.

[Karnack]

What about the instances where I scout a player only to find that he has bid accepted for him from several clubs with the same amount, but when I offer the same sum the club negotiate £10 million more for me?

Example that happened recently (I play with Liverpool):

Timo Werner is ready to leave his club and I scout him to find out that the following bids have been made and accepted:

Dortmund £18.9 millions plus £2.5 after 50 games

Atletico Madrid £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Roma £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Chelsea £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Tottenham £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Real Madrid £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

I decide to get into the fray and give the club the exact same offer. Now logically in real life I would understand a club trying to up the price considering all the interest, but why does this happen on the 7th bid when I enter? I had to settle for £28 mil to get him.

[hluraven]

If you have actually offered the identical bid as the others and had to pay 9 million more, upload to the bugs forum.

[El Presidente]

As said before happens quite a bit.

Never once in my years of playing have I ever got a player for less than another bidding club (and I am very frugal with cash).

I also think it's terrible the way AI clubs will usually bid exactly the same as each other. Shouldn't it become a bidding war if more than one club is interested?

[Sunstrikuuu]

So wrong and shows a massive misunderstanding of how it works

According to Daniel Wells of SI: "This is a known issue and has been worked on by the development team." This is in response to a purchase attempt for a player from Liverpool, who held firm at a price of more than £30 million before selling the player for less than £6 million to an AI manager. Ben Kenney described the negotiations as "odd".

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/417122-Transfer-logic

[hluraven]

That's not the same thing, Daniel was saying that that specific negotiation was an issue, not that the AI treats the user any differently to the computer managers, which is the point of this thread.

Cougar was right that any suggestion that that is happening is wrong and a misunderstanding, the AI doesn't take that into account at all.

[madeirabhoy]

mate, I'm sorry but it seems that you are reading what you want to into Daniel Well's post.

the specific negotiation was that whenever ANY user controlled team made a bid, they wanted mental money, but an AI team happily bought him ffor relative buttons, even whilst knocking back a higher bid from the user controlled team. the fact that the player replayed it as manager of Juve shows the only difference was that an AI controlled Juve could get him cheap and a user controlled Juve couldn't.

[thethe]

What about the instances where I scout a player only to find that he has bid accepted for him from several clubs with the same amount, but when I offer the same sum the club negotiate £10 million more for me?

Example that happened recently (I play with Liverpool):

Timo Werner is ready to leave his club and I scout him to find out that the following bids have been made and accepted:

Dortmund £18.9 millions plus £2.5 after 50 games

Atletico Madrid £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Roma £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Chelsea £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Tottenham £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

Real Madrid £18.9 plus £2.5 after 50 games

I decide to get into the fray and give the club the exact same offer. Now logically in real life I would understand a club trying to up the price considering all the interest, but why does this happen on the 7th bid when I enter? I had to settle for £28 mil to get him.

This, too, is explained by AI clubs not remembering the offers they've received. At the exact time those clubs bid for him, that was the amount his club was willing to let him go for. Their valuation has changed since then, but as the AI can't change their mind about accepted offers, you get situations like yours.

I've seen it go the other way too. I bid £20 million for a player once. It was rejected. The game crashed a few days after. I made a bid for the same player, but I did it two days later in-game than the first time. They accepted an offer for £3 million.

Confusing, unrealistic and definitely something that needs to be improved massively, but that doesn't mean AI clubs discriminate.

[Guest]

There are two very different issues being discussed in this thread.

Issue #1

User submits offer for player, offer is negotiated to a point that the user walks away without agreeing a deal. At a later point an AI club manages to secure a deal for the same player at a lower value than what the user was asked to pay.

The issue here is that once the user walks away the potential deal is over & forgotten, the game does not have the capability of remember that offer & it has no bearing on the AI clubs acceptable value for their player the moment the game is continued.

Issue #2

The user spots that AI clubs have already had offers accepted from a player they are interested in, user makes an offer as close to those already accepted but is asked to pay more, this is the issue that Dan & Ben have commented on. A knock-on of this issue is that if the user agrees to pay the higher fee the AI club fails to cancel the lower value transfers.

Although they look the same the reasons behind issues 1 & 2 are quite different, they should not be confused nor should they be taken as an indication that the user is always on the end of a raw deal because both issues can negatively affect an AI controlled side if they make their offer at the wrong time. The difference is that in most cases we never hear about or see the times when the AI is affected by either of them.

[madeirabhoy]

thanks barside, and i agree to a point but not really.

issue 1. id think the explanation was more likely if i found myself that even sometimes i made an offer of around the value of a good player and the club accepted it, but it seems that that only happens to AI clubs. if it was simply about it being a bit random and the club forgetting the offers below, then sometimes, even once, id see a player with a value of 8 million and they'd take an offer of 8-10 million, which is what happens to AI clubs.

[madeirabhoy]

right so in 2020 Ivan Cavaleiro is worth 5.25 million. i offer 5.25.

two inbox notifications one after another.

castiall accept bids form nots forest and r. sociedade.

next one, castilla have negotiated the bid from celtic.

so i look, both forest and sociedad's bids are 3.9m +

my negotiated bid is 10.9m

I'm sure someone will create a story as to why that is perfectly realistic and sensible.

[Cougar2010]

right so in 2020 Ivan Cavaleiro is worth 5.25 million. i offer 5.25.

two inbox notifications one after another.

castiall accept bids form nots forest and r. sociedade.

next one, castilla have negotiated the bid from celtic.

so i look, both forest and sociedad's bids are 3.9m +

my negotiated bid is 10.9m

I'm sure someone will create a story as to why that is perfectly realistic and sensible.

Its a negotiation, nothing more.

Have you tried negotiating the £10.9m to £3.9m and see if it is accepted?

Also do the bids that have been accepted include other clauses that your offer doesn't?

[madeirabhoy]

yes i did. no it wasnt. when he went to socidedad it was reported to be 3.9 which might rise to 5.25.

and another thing, how come both AI controlled players made the same offer? surely that would only happen if it was the negotiated amount, but it wasnt..

[madeirabhoy]

oh here's another one.13th july. dortmund's gilberto offer accepted.

Sporting have accepted an offer of 9m from dortmund for gilberto. subject to conditions however, the transfer may eventually rise to 14.75m.

so i offer 10m on the same day. i expect them to come back with 10m+ add ons surely.

15th July. Sporting negotiation over gilberto. 20m up front.....

any attempt to make it 10 million ish plus add ons and it ends up with them saying 16.25 +1.7m after 50 games plus 30%

so im not paying that, and no doubt he'll go to dortmund for 9m+ add ons.oh there he goes.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

The worst one I had was bidding being accepted at around 17million for an Everton player, Barkley I think it was from five different AI teams, flat 17 million bids. Everton would NOT budge from forcing me to bid 60million.

That was sent in as a bug report and happened on the first release.

I don't generally have an issue with clubs bidding below my bids now as I make use of the scouting network to snap up youngsters at below-value, before clubs get a chance to fully assess the player and raise the asking price. The AI, on the other hand, is limited in this respect because they, in my experience, only recognise the talent once the reputation has gone up or the original club has assessed his true potential talent. It means they end up bidding for them when the accepted bid is 15+million. Meanwhile, I'm nabbing these kids for nominal fees. ^_^

But yeah, other than that I tend not to go for established players anyway.

[Guest]

yes i did. no it wasnt. when he went to socidedad it was reported to be 3.9 which might rise to 5.25.

and another thing, how come both AI controlled players made the same offer? surely that would only happen if it was the negotiated amount, but it wasnt..

The best way to avoid this bug would be to not wait until AI clubs make a bid for players you are interested in, if you need or want the player then it is best to negotiate a deal first.

[madeirabhoy]

the only reason i bidder was i saw a reasonable bid accepted. normally what happens is whenever i bid for a player of any value, i have to pay huge multiple of the stated amount, but the AI clubs keep sigining players for decent prices so i figured my money is as good as theres....but obviously not...

[safcrhys]

You should scout South America, I have signed some great youngsters for peanuts who have then went on to become some of the best players in the world.

[OscarGarcia]

Yea this is something that's rigged, and the mods and the fanboys will deny it and cry out that its ur tactics m8 but it's not, it's just the way it works.

For example, I am Brighton, I'm in the prem and looking good, plenty of money to spend, I try to sign Bony from City, Arsenal offer 8mil and it's accepted, they wanted 14 from me, I bid the 14 and lose out anyway.

Ok I think, let's try this again, I reload a save from a few days prior and enter myself a new manager, take over Arsenal as a French manager that's at maximum rep and as respected as Wenger.

Sure enough, they want 17m from me due to me being a 'rival'.

So they will accept one price from the AI version of Arsenal, but the identical version of Arsenal with a max rep manager from the same country as Wenger has to pay double simply because I'm in control.

[Guest]

How much negotiating did you attempt after the initial counter-offer?

The deal that is struck between two AI clubs is what is agreed after any number of rounds of negotiation that are processed in an instance so to a degree the opening request has to be ignored as all we see is the final outcome, locking the fixed fee after the first or second round of negotiations is a tactic that I have had some success with.