TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[thomit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm still convinced RoT works perfectly with a multi-strata system and a diamond, with 5 strata should work fine. The 4-4-2, which only has three strata, is much more difficult to build. As I'm as stubborn as a mule I'm going to keep on working it until I have it right. Interestingly, The next Diaby still believes his RoT system to be better than his RoO, despite performing well with both. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha so this is what this thread is all about. Your stubborness to actually get a flat 4-4-2 to work.

So you're saying you wouldn't use RoO with a 4-4-2 Diamond?

I think I read on your opening post about the "demise" of RoT that it doesn't work purely because players are too far away from each other and there is gaps. Was that with the flat 4-4-2 you meant or in general? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would happily use RoO to build a Diamond. If it works as a 4-4-2 it should work in any other formation. As for the team versus mentality debate, I have always agreed with what you said, that individual overrides team, as it does in eevry other instruction set. Neil has confirmed this with his example. Even though the question he was asked was not mentality specific he chose mentality to illustrate the point. His example aslo seems to indicate that the extremes don't overide either.

As for (another) complaint about me overcomplicating things....I don't think building alternative mentality frameworks is overcomplicating. I don't complicate things as much as thse who tweak every match for every situation and scout report. I just chose one of my custom defaults and go with that.

@ filipe fonseca: Jumping from Conf North to Conf National is probably the most difficult league changes in the game. I think the L2 to L1 switch is also tough, as is the Championship to the Premiership. However, Conf Nat to L2 is easy and if you win one you should win the other. The same can be said between L1 and Championship. Sign players on full-time contracts adn you will get better performances than simply changing tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wwfan - I was not complaining about you over-complicating things - I just think you might be, ok? Or, in other instances over-simplifying things. It's nearly everyone who comes up with a tactical theory - things like closing down set to 12 or 14 for a specific position and so on... I think it's much more player related than position related, imho. One player in let's say a MC position will have 10 as his optimal CD setting, another one in the same position will have 17 as a good setting - it all depends on the player. Run with ball is another example - it should not, in my opinion, be used automatically for a specific position (wingers...), but only if the player in question really has the appropriate skills necessary to handle the instruction. And so on. As I said, I have the utmost respect for your work, and no offense was intended. And I did not complaint.

[Loversleaper]

Reguarding the team versus player mentalities: I have (as almost everyone else) my own oppinion on this issue. But instead of making an assumption it would be more beneficial for all if there was more alaboration on the subject. Seems that Hectorspector has done some testing and has maybe an interresting input if the mentalities has different effects, but I feel you have been too brief on your assumption and not explained exactly what it is you see in the difference.

If one raises the team mentality slider the players mentalities raises accordingly. If they do have different effects then are we to assume that we are changing both their positioning and their style of play/direction of passing at the same time? We can be sure about one thing though and that is team instructions cannot override players individual instuctions because if they did then player instructions would become obsolite.

If one were to have a team mentality on 14 and one player on 6 then of course there will be contrast which only proves that players intructions overrides team intructions. Playing half a side on one mentlity doesn't really give a clear picture and might seem alittle confusing. I would test it differently: have all players on individual mentalities and mirror team mentalites and then test a match several times then swap the mentalities again to see if there is a difference in match stats both team and individual. But I know several have done this and they seem to have all the same general oppinion. To seperate the team and player mentality and make them effect the match machine differently opposed to all the other sliders in team instructions would take some very deep programming. But it would be nice if people do have an oppinion that it would be explained in alittle more detail because this has been an issue from day one and it would be nice for all if there comes some sort of closure. Thanks....

[Mighty Red]

wwwfan + others, many thanks for such an informativ thread - I contributed more to the FM2005 and 06 tactics forums than I have to the 07 ones - a drawback to getting married, I guess

I'm competent enough to take teams to the top - but then struggle when the entire league decides to play with 11 behind the ball. Hopefully ideas I've taken from this thread will help - I shall report back when I believe I have some semi-coherent ideas.

[kevtrev]

asmo

a while back you said something along the lines of "the much-maligned d-line caused many problems until it was properly explained..." where can i find that explanation?

the mentality debate

surely this can be solved with a definitive test? leave all settings at 10 - that is, width, tempo, cf, cd, and crucially, (ticked) individual mentalities for all players - and play the same game twice, first with team mentality at 20, and then at 1. if there is no difference in performance, then the horse speaks gospel - but if there is, we know wwfan's been dealing with another si ass.

[HectorSpector]

Lets not forget that man marking didn't work they way they intended either

[filipe_fonseca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loversleaper:

Reguarding the team versus player mentalities: I have (as almost everyone else) my own oppinion on this issue. But instead of making an assumption it would be more beneficial for all if there was more alaboration on the subject. Seems that Hectorspector has done some testing and has maybe an interresting input if the mentalities has different effects, but I feel you have been too brief on your assumption and not explained exactly what it is you see in the difference.

If one raises the team mentality slider the players mentalities raises accordingly. If they do have different effects then are we to assume that we are changing both their positioning and their style of play/direction of passing at the same time? We can be sure about one thing though and that is team instructions cannot override players individual instuctions because if they did then player instructions would become obsolite.

If one were to have a team mentality on 14 and one player on 6 then of course there will be contrast which only proves that players intructions overrides team intructions. Playing half a side on one mentlity doesn't really give a clear picture and might seem alittle confusing. I would test it differently: have all players on individual mentalities and mirror team mentalites and then test a match several times then swap the mentalities again to see if there is a difference in match stats both team and individual. But I know several have done this and they seem to have all the same general oppinion. To seperate the team and player mentality and make them effect the match machine differently opposed to all the other sliders in team instructions would take some very deep programming. But it would be nice if people do have an oppinion that it would be explained in alittle more detail because this has been an issue from day one and it would be nice for all if there comes some sort of closure. Thanks.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check this out.

wwfan: Thanks for the advice. This transition seems much harder than it was in FM06. I changed back to my old successful tactics and am gradually getting better results.

[HectorSpector]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HectorSpector

If my dad said to me tomorrow, "you're actually a girl", I wouldn't believe him. He created me, and he should know better, but my experiences dictate otherwise *wink* *wink*.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your construct of what constitutes a "boy" or a "girl" is dictated by what you have been told by society. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was drunk last night. It's actually a really **** analogy

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">wwfan

I first increased closing down for my full-backs as a lot of my lost possession and chances against seemed to be coming when the full-backs failed to get close enough to the winger who then passed it backwards to his full-back who launched a cross into the area. This stopped with increased CD for full-backs. I then began to dominate possession in the opening two fixtures, but was drawing 0-0 or losing 1-0. I upped creative freedom for my wingers, lowered closing down for my quick forward. No real change. Then I decided to reinstitue the HomeAlt model in which one of the FCs plays as a target man and has the lowest mentality (equal to goalkeeper) on the pitch. He has 'mixed' balls played to him. Instant success. He dragged his marker out of position and played a huge number of key passes to breaking players. He also won a lot of key headers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

May well have to try that. Most of my goals come from the wings, though I'm not playing wingers, of course, to cover the wingers.

Have you noticed any difference in using the opposition instructions to close down the opposition full backs? Deep crosses from DR and DL are a real pain on this version of the match engine, and so effective. It's created no end of problems for the opposition, and they then usually have to resort to punting it down the middle. Of course, my team are also crap down the middle, but it's a start. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted about a week ago or earlier ranting about the same problem, that opposition crosses seem to be the bane of my defensive problems.

I upped the CD of my defenders a litte: 6 for the DCs and 9 for the full backs.

The CD of the wingers was already high (at 16) so I've used opposition instructions to help out. Now that I use tight man marking for all 4 of my defenders, I also specify tight marking for the opposition wingers (when previously I've 'closed down often') as well as their STs. Hard tackling is also useful on the wingers, although I only do that as my full back's have very good tackling. 'Show onto weaker foot' is also useful for applying to the wingers and full backs I find, and I also specify often closing down on the opposition full backs.

In summary, I've found these opposition instructions useful to reduce their crossing effeciency:

- Full backs: Often closing down; Show onto weaker foot

- Wingers: Tight marking; Hard tackling; Show onto wrong foot

- Strikers: Tight marking

If these force the opposition to play more through the centre then great, as usually they'll have a long shot or my DCs will get the tackle in sooner or later.

[Loversleaper]

On the topic of tactics for world class teams:

Since your opponents play ultra-deffensive it's very difficult to break them down. I was just thinking after I've viewed some of the tactics in these frameworks that you're very conservative on the Run With Ball option. Maybe upgrading this on certain players could be a solution on breaking away from opponents and trying to drag them out of formation hopefully creating openings. Closing down might be a key some where but I feel closing down is more a deffensive asset than an attacking one, I can't really see that it would produce more or better options in attack. Because as many others I do experience the 60%-40% possesion flaw of controlling the match but underperforming and the question is if width-passing-tempo has to be set-up differently in order to drag opposition out of position, which I think it is the key. Creative Freedom has become somewhat of a menace and I still feel it's to risky raising them too high as it seems the gas goes out of the ballon....

Just to share some observations that I've found is that focus passing must in someway coincide with width and going wide must mean that one should focus down flanks. I was hoping going wide would help on my quest to drag my opponents out of position but it seems that the match stats dropped heavily. Changing consulations (passing, tempo, focus passing) didn't have much effect either. Going very direct seemed worse, though it's been quite exausting trying to pin-point the differences.

Going narrow seemed to stagnate the game somewhat, and I got most shots on goal with width around 10-11. Target man option works well as you mentioned but seems after 5-6 games opponents start to block off my attacking options quite effectively, (maybe have strikers and wingers swaping positions a la Arsenal?).

Just thought I would share this, because it looks as if you only need to dot the "i".

[crazy gra]

Shots on goal can be a little misleading, though. I always look at them as a way of seeing how well I've performed, but you have to watch games to see if those shots are actually from good chances. Like I said to wwfan the other day, it's all well and good having lots of shots, even lots of SOTs, but they have to be decent chances or else they're not going to result in goals that often.

[Benoit2]

Just for the record, what constitutes as ultra-defensive? The 4-4-2 without arrows, or even the 3-3-2-1-1?

[zeusbheld]

wwfan:

haven't read through all the comments but just played the same match with/without your RoO/passing settings (didn't change my formation).

without: 1-0 loss. with: 0-2 leading at 25 min.

i am playing the more attacking away framework; i just can't bring myself to be ultra-defensive (until chelski-slough).

noticed immediately passing framework solved some problems with the short passing game. can't wait until my MR has healed and i can have a quality creative playmaker.

ok ok less than half of one game is a bit premature, but THANKS.

[Loversleaper]

Too true, Crazygra, shots on goal isn't always beneficial, because, as you pointed out, quality speaks louder than quantity in FM07. Finding the balance is also a direction I would like to take, and as I mentioned earlier, and I feel the way to break down ultra-deffensive formations was to find a way to drag the opposition players out of position.

This is what I have been trying lately but I'm still unsure as I am just getting started and you sometimes need a couple of seasons or different qaulity of teams to be sure that one knows what one talks about....

Homeattack: same as wwwfans, but changed the following: Closing Down changed the whole defense to (10). Full backs and wingers upped their Creative freedom to (10 FB) and (12 Ws) respectivly, gave wingers often Run With Ball and toned down Through Balls. Full Backs toned down Through Balls and gave them Often Cross Ball from Deep (saw some posts where people desribed the diffeculty in deffending against deep crosses). Upped the Creative Freedom for DM to (8), Fast Forward(13), and Striker(10) and removed the swap positions for Central Midfielders (had to do this due to lack of qaulity as I am testing with Queens Park Rangers).

Team Instructions: Passing(10) Tempo(7) and width(14), and clicked Target Man Option.

Doing quite well 3 points off the top in my first season with 9 games to go and my team has be picking up momentum lately (just beat Preston 4-1 away). It's not always I've used HomeAtt (of course) but implementing some things in the other formations as I have done above (except Closing Down, left it as wwwfans concept). I have noticed that when opponents play ultra-deffensive Closing down on (10) dosen't let the opponent attack, BUT when(if) you score one or two goals your opponent switches to a more attacking formation causing problems for your closing down ploy of (10) and it's nessassary to lower it. Otherwise I haven't been tampering too much and use wwwfans deffensive formations as is, per say. Still not enough to say anything is better than anything else and I could have been doing better in team talks, praising players(or not) in the media, and being more unexperimental(lost three home games), but all in all just having some fun....

[aston_martin]

i think if you push the D-line higher there could be some results in breaking down ultra def opposition, becuase after all the ball would be in thier half more becuase of this.

also to coincide with the theorems and frameworks, higher closing down would be good also becuase it would force more mistakes and becuase the high D-line means the football is in their half, the mistakes they make would be more costly.

[zeusbheld]

wwfan:

are you sure 'counter attack' is counter-intuitive?

i'm in the process of crushing carshalton (with slough) and i played with it a bit. with 'counter attack' checked, the players do seem to look for an 'outlet pass' downfield when they win the ball under pressure. without it checked they seem to build more. this is just from watching one match, though. it could be coincidental.

playing a diamond 442 at the moment but RoO still working nicely (may try a RoT with the diamond later, RoT is similar to my own old tactic). your principles are working magnificently so far btw. a lot of things i hadn't thought of, like dcs using longer passes THANKS AGAIN.

[The next Diaby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Benoit2:

Just for the record, what constitutes as ultra-defensive? The 4-4-2 without arrows, or even the 3-3-2-1-1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on your league and country. Could also be a diamond, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1. More important is the defensive mentality, slow tempo, high time wasting, no counter attack.

[crazy gra]

Right, said the other day that I'd do some testing with the d-line. wwfan has his set at the median of the individual mentalities, but I thought that it may be linked into the team passing as with the width. I was thinking that the d-line should mirror the team passing because when the team is pushed up the pitch, it is less viable to make direct passes, and when you have a deep d-line you should be looking to play more direct passes.

In my current home tactic, the d-line according to the mentalities is 14, but mirroring it to the passing would be at 16. Played a couple of games with the d-line at 16 and these are the results as well as the ones that I did the other day with a d-line of 14:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Result Shots For SOTs For Shots Ag SOTs Ag Possession

Spurs, home, normal 3-0 13 9 4 3 50%

Spurs, home, normal 2-0 14 8 6 1 52%

Spurs, home, d-line 16 1-0 10 6 4 2 53%

Spurs, home, d-line 16 0-0 9 8 3 0 50%

</pre>

Hope that's not too much of a mess to read. Seems I'm probably wrong in my assumption. Not just the results and stats show that my normal tactic works better, but I played a lot better in these too. Like I was saying to Loversleaper a bit above, shot and SOT stats can be misleading. Although I got a decent shot:SOT ratio with d-line of 16, I didn't really trouble Robinson too much and he certainly made more better saves when I played with my normal tactic.

[The Eagleman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then I decided to reinstitue the HomeAlt model in which one of the FCs plays as a target man and has the lowest mentality (equal to goalkeeper) on the pitch. He has 'mixed' balls played to him. Instant success. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wwfan - The tactic you mention is it available for download?

[crazy gra]

It should be available in the thread for the RoO tactics.

[Justified]

One thing I don't understand is why you would hav HUB on a defensive midfielder? I know I'm way behind on the subject but I just noticed that most people do. Ok I get the thinking that it'll give time for your defence to re-group but don't you think this also gives the opponent way to much time to re-group as well?

[Guest Kristianhnohr]

If a DMC has Strength, Decisions and Passing then HUB is a good idea....

Marc Vaughan has stated that in his official "Tips and Tricks"

I guess he need the Decisions to know WHEN to HUB - without I think youre right...opponent will have time to regroup

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loversleaper:

On the topic of tactics for world class teams:

Since your opponents play ultra-defensive it's very difficult to break them down. I was just thinking after I've viewed some of the tactics in these frameworks that you're very conservative on the Run With Ball option. Maybe upgrading this on certain players could be a solution on breaking away from opponents and trying to drag them out of formation hopefully creating openings. Closing down might be a key some where but I feel closing down is more a defensive asset than an attacking one, I can't really see that it would produce more or better options in attack. Because as many others I do experience the 60%-40% possesion flaw of controlling the match but underperforming and the question is if width-passing-tempo has to be set-up differently in order to drag opposition out of position, which I think it is the key. Creative Freedom has become somewhat of a menace and I still feel it's to risky raising them too high as it seems the gas goes out of the ballon....

Just to share some observations that I've found is that focus passing must in someway coincide with width and going wide must mean that one should focus down flanks. I was hoping going wide would help on my quest to drag my opponents out of position but it seems that the match stats dropped heavily. Changing consulations (passing, tempo, focus passing) didn't have much effect either. Going very direct seemed worse, though it's been quite exausting trying to pin-point the differences.

Going narrow seemed to stagnate the game somewhat, and I got most shots on goal with width around 10-11. Target man option works well as you mentioned but seems after 5-6 games opponents start to block off my attacking options quite effectively, (maybe have strikers and wingers swaping positions a la Arsenal?).

Just thought I would share this, because it looks as if you only need to dot the "i". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are right about dotting the 'i'. In 06 the answer was to close down heavily (15-17) with all the defenders and to short-farrow the FBs. That way the lone attacker in a 3-3-2-1-1 had no options except to boot the ball upfield and so you were able to easily recycle possession. I aso deepened the d-line so that my DMC was often challenging the FC for the loose ball and could easily knock it back to the unmarked DCs who could relaunch an attack. This may be the way to go in 07 with a DMC system. With a flat 4-4-2 the DCs will need to win the ball themselves, then maybe staggered CD is the best option.

The issue I am having is that the AI tends to use a very defensive 4-4-2 over the 06 favoured 3-3-2-1-1. This means high closing down for the DCs is more risky as a quick through ball by one FC may set off a counter. I will still test it though.

As for the shots on goal debate, I am happy with 50% accuracy if my tactic is regularly producing 15+ shots a a game. Out of the off target efforts, usually 3 or 4 should have been on target, the same number are shots blocked by defenders which count as off target unless it is a goal-line clearance and only 2 or 3 are speculative long range efforts. I am happy with that, although a higher percentage would be better. It may come with future tweaks.

Counter attack has always worked in the way I mentioned in previous versions and I see no evidence that SI have changed it. The 'outlet pass' may be a part of counter attack, but players are also more likely to clear the ball unless an obvious chance is on, which could easily be perceived as an attacking ball and may well occassionally turn into one.

I released the HomeAlt over at FMB but I don't think I put it in the FMDownloads set. Simply reduce mentality to 14 for the left-sided FC. Check target man and 'mixed' supply in team instructions. Leave all other instructions as is.

HUB for the DMC has been a long standing SI tradition and I originally started using it because of MV's 'Tips and Tricks'. A good DMC will use it selectively.

[vroom]

im playing with valencia 2nd season being heavily favoured to win almost every game but i cant. using your 442 sets and i cant get the ball in. i have villa and toni as strkers. at home i lose with 0-1 and away 2-1 almost every game. what shall i do the title is slipping out of reach.....

[daleuk8]

i am really struggling to score goals any advice

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

i am really struggling to score goals any advice </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, 7 pages of it!!!

@ vroom: All I can suggest is reading some of my posts on page seven relating to my switch to Barca. Basically it involves using variants of the Home tactic sets for most matches (unticking counter for home games, dropping Toni (FCL) to mentality 14, target man checked, HUB, 'mixed' supply) plus upping the FWRs for the FBS from mixed to often. For away gamesa I find that sometimes the Home works, sometimes the HomeDef and sometimes the AwayAtt. It very much depends on the quality of the opposition as to which one you implement.

[Guest yehuang123]

Thanks wwfanï¼That's super!I Like it!

[daleuk8]

what HUB

[Emre_God]

HUB= Hold Up Ball

[fg]

can anyone explein me how play liverpool wiyh barcelona

it was 3 man in back + finan mam marking ronaldinh as wingback

or 4 man in back, but who p[ayed as left fulbacks?

[jaycar]

it was basically a 442, with arbeloa playing at LB. riise was LM and gerrard RM

[filipe_fonseca]

I finally had some playing time over this last week. After my initially successful diamond formation went down the drain, I started a new game, and re-wrote the tactical setup from scratch.

It's entirely based on wwfan's initial post for this thread. I will mostly point out the differences, for those interested in building a diamond formation with the Rule of One. It should be noticed that this setup was only tested in the lower leagues, so far.

- I have created two extra frameworks. Thus, I have three away frameworks and three home ones. They're basically intermediate setups between the original ones. I think they allow me to make more subtle and catious changes, when I feel the need. The three options vary in width too: the most "attacking" ones use width of two notches above mentality, the "normal" ones, as I called them, use one notch less, and the "defensive" ones match it with mentality. My away tactics set focus passing to down both flanks, as I find it useful to get the ball away from the front of the goal.

- Both fullbacks have to close down somewhat heavily. I learned this the hard way. After a game of initial success and then failure, I started a new one. Again, initial success (Conference North) was easy. When things were beginning to go wrong again, I finally realized what my problem was, and, even after a poor initial run, made it to 4th (same points as 2nd and 3rd, five points away from 1st) and got promoted. So I definitely suggest high closing down for the fullbacks.

- None of my players use hard tackling. I found that wwfan's suggestion of using it away from home outside the penalty area (fullbacks and defensive midfielder) was giving out too many penalties. It's been working great.

- I have also specified a few individual instructions, position based, rather than leave everything on mixed. Crossing often for wingers and run with ball often for the FC are the most significant ones, I think.

- I've been using both a playmaker and a target man. The playmaker has forward runs on mixed, so he can occasionally help the attack and score, while still fulfilling his playmaking obligations. I think playmakers allow your team to build better attacks, because from this position (AMC) they have as many options as it is possible to pass the ball. I don't use the playmaker option when I don't have a player with adequate decisions and creativity, though. It doesn't need to be too high for the lower leagues though.

Hopefully, this might help those interested in setting up a solid TT&F 4-4-2 diamond. Any comments on my ideas will be highly welcome.

[Justified]

I concur with the closing down on fullbacks. I think people should use at least mixed (10) on them.

[daleuk8]

i'm really struggling away from home. if i use the away tactic i never score if i use the home i concede loads

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

i'm really struggling away from home. if i use the away tactic i never score if i use the home i concede loads </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which team are you?

[daleuk8]

i'm leeds i'm not doing bad, i'm third. but i've just had no Consist antsy. and never feel comfy going into games

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

i'm leeds i'm not doing bad, i'm third. but i've just had no Consist antsy. and never feel comfy going into games </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try using AwayAtt against the better teams and HomeDef away against the less good and see if that helps.

[cellz]

yo wwfan i downloaded your tactics and tweaked them a bit, but still having trouble. Almost everytime i lead like 2-0 or something suddenly the opposition scores 3 goals and i lose 2-3..any idea why does this happen? I've tryed switching tactics and everything still no luck..heard that this happens to a lot of people, hope that you got the right solution..i'm playing with everton by the way

[mmt335]

Class, just pure Class, that's all i can say WWfan. I feel my brain throbbing after all this reading but I guess i'll have to print everything and red it again, because I feel like i've been taking stupid pills... I read, i think i get it, but then i realize i don't ... but for the effort and the insight, its just amazing, not just the opening posts but the whole thread, just pure class...

guess i'll have some real hard studying to do before i even try to come near the game again...

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

yo wwfan i downloaded your tactics and tweaked them a bit, but still having trouble. Almost everytime i lead like 2-0 or something suddenly the opposition scores 3 goals and i lose 2-3..any idea why does this happen? I've tryed switching tactics and everything still no luck..heard that this happens to a lot of people, hope that you got the right solution..i'm playing with everton by the way </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The RoO basic 4-4-2s are very susceptable to this. I've been doing some testing on a 4-4-2 and a 4-1-3-2 and suffered the dreaded comeback. Luckily, it's pretty easy to fix if you catch it early.

Knocking the mentality of all the players down a little can help. If not, dropping the d. line a little, narrowing the width, taking forward runs off the wingers and full backs, farrows on the full backs, a change in passing length and/or tempo - a whole host of things to do.

The first thing to notice is how you let in goals. For me, it's nearly always a punt over the top or a deep cross. For those, a little deeper defensive line, barrows on the full backs and opposition instructions on the wingers or wing backs usually helps. Just depends what your side tends to do.

[cellz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

yo wwfan i downloaded your tactics and tweaked them a bit, but still having trouble. Almost everytime i lead like 2-0 or something suddenly the opposition scores 3 goals and i lose 2-3..any idea why does this happen? I've tryed switching tactics and everything still no luck..heard that this happens to a lot of people, hope that you got the right solution..i'm playing with everton by the way </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The RoO basic 4-4-2s are very susceptable to this. I've been doing some testing on a 4-4-2 and a 4-1-3-2 and suffered the dreaded comeback. Luckily, it's pretty easy to fix if you catch it early.

Knocking the mentality of all the players down a little can help. If not, dropping the d. line a little, narrowing the width, taking forward runs off the wingers and full backs, farrows on the full backs, a change in passing length and/or tempo - a whole host of things to do.

The first thing to notice is how you let in goals. For me, it's nearly always a punt over the top or a deep cross. For those, a little deeper defensive line, barrows on the full backs and opposition instructions on the wingers or wing backs usually helps. Just depends what your side tends to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's usually a long through ball or a cross

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cellz:

yo wwfan i downloaded your tactics and tweaked them a bit, but still having trouble. Almost everytime i lead like 2-0 or something suddenly the opposition scores 3 goals and i lose 2-3..any idea why does this happen? I've tryed switching tactics and everything still no luck..heard that this happens to a lot of people, hope that you got the right solution..i'm playing with everton by the way </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The RoO basic 4-4-2s are very susceptable to this. I've been doing some testing on a 4-4-2 and a 4-1-3-2 and suffered the dreaded comeback. Luckily, it's pretty easy to fix if you catch it early.

Knocking the mentality of all the players down a little can help. If not, dropping the d. line a little, narrowing the width, taking forward runs off the wingers and full backs, farrows on the full backs, a change in passing length and/or tempo - a whole host of things to do.

The first thing to notice is how you let in goals. For me, it's nearly always a punt over the top or a deep cross. For those, a little deeper defensive line, barrows on the full backs and opposition instructions on the wingers or wing backs usually helps. Just depends what your side tends to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's usually a long through ball or a cross </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I would play a bit narrower then, so the opposition defenders can't waltz through the middle, drop the defensive line a couple of notches and put barrows on the full backs (I know I said farrows earlier - that was a typo). You may want to use opposition instructions on the players causing you the most grief.

[crazy gra]

So much for the demise of the RoT, I feel I should post this.

Playing Spurs away and I started with a RoO 4-4-2. This had been made from my current away 4-4-2 that is a RoT and everything except the individual mentalities were the same. Thought I'd give it a try as the RoT had only got me a 1-1 draw away to Villa.

First 20 minutes against Spurs was crap to say the least, they had all the chances. So changed back to my RoT and was in control from then on. Won 2-1, both of my goals in either half and theirs came in the 95th, which I hope I would have avoided if I'd bothered to shut up shop.

[fg]

Sorry guys i have just 2 quick question

i`m using simple 433 with dmc two mc amr/l and sc.

1. If i have big targetmen and want play to his head, can i give my wingers short passing?

2. If i have Palacio upfront and want play onto bal to him, can i give my fulback crosses to targetmen or not? ( he is small but fast)and i want play onto ball to him

[Millie]

I've been experimenting with Rule of One. All went well for the fisrt few games, and then I've no idea what's happening. I could revert back to my original tactics, but I want to ride this out as the early promise shows that, in theory, these tactics are far superior to anything I can come up with.

However, in the past 5 games I haven't scored a goal, and I'm averaging 4 shots a game. Less than 1 on target.

The problem seems to be that, while I'm keeping possession OK, the ball never actually gets to the forwards. On top of this, the opposition get only a couple of chances a game, but they're unmissable.

I'm taking radical steps to sort this, and the terrible morale is probably not helping, but any ideas on how I can increase the amount of chances? I'm really not bothered if I let in goals now, I just want to score.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

I've been experimenting with Rule of One. All went well for the fisrt few games, and then I've no idea what's happening. I could revert back to my original tactics, but I want to ride this out as the early promise shows that, in theory, these tactics are far superior to anything I can come up with.

However, in the past 5 games I haven't scored a goal, and I'm averaging 4 shots a game. Less than 1 on target.

The problem seems to be that, while I'm keeping possession OK, the ball never actually gets to the forwards. On top of this, the opposition get only a couple of chances a game, but they're unmissable.

I'm taking radical steps to sort this, and the terrible morale is probably not helping, but any ideas on how I can increase the amount of chances? I'm really not bothered if I let in goals now, I just want to score. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just won 2-0. With one shot on target.

Seemed like a personel change and a kick up the backside worked well. I think I've just showed myself how important team selection is as well as tactics.

* slap on wrists *

Naughty Millie...

[daleuk8]

can you guys do some testing for me? i'm using the ro0. try matching your width to your DM's mentallity.

[cellz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

So much for the demise of the RoT, I feel I should post this.

Playing Spurs away and I started with a RoO 4-4-2. This had been made from my current away 4-4-2 that is a RoT and everything except the individual mentalities were the same. Thought I'd give it a try as the RoT had only got me a 1-1 draw away to Villa.

First 20 minutes against Spurs was crap to say the least, they had all the chances. So changed back to my RoT and was in control from then on. Won 2-1, both of my goals in either half and theirs came in the 95th, which I hope I would have avoided if I'd bothered to shut up shop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally feel like in this game, last minute goals happen far too often, no matter what tactic you use.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

this looks good - could revive my faith in FM 07.

[Kazza]

Hi

Just started to play fm2007 again after my PC slave drive crashed and burned. Seen this thread and began a game with the mighty "Blyth Spartans". I am using wwfan's tactics and theorams..and it plays so well. What a fantastic piece of work, all that time. effort and thought (you should enter it as part of a university degree...based on fm..you will get a 1:1)

Thanks

If i can add anything of interest re the T&TF I will but thanks again.

[crazy gra]

I'm having massive problems away from home at the moment, just can't seem to get it right at all. So far in the league I've won 1, drawn 3 and lost 3 out of 7 away games. Last game was a 3-1 loss at City in the derby, and this really p*ssed me off.

In hindsight, I know which tactic I should have played now. The scout report on them suggested they play high tempo and indeed they did. I've posted quite a bit about playing away against high tempo teams, and I had the same problems in this game. It was quite an even game, as previous games have been against similar opponents.

Got a tactic which I've used before against high tempo teams to good effect, which I'll give a try when the event next comes around. The gist of it is to employ a low d-line (6) and play a more possession minded game, so the outfield player's mentalities range from 4-12. Although not adhering to the "d-line = median of mentalities", I've got slightly away from that as I don't want the d-line any higher than 6, but don't want a defensive mentality. Tempo, passing and width are all 6 too.

More than that, away games against top quality opponents I am struggling with too. Lost 3-0 away to Arsenal and Chelsea already, but since then I've gone back to zonal marking as I feel man marking has been letting me down. I still feel marking needs working on, mainly to allow for common sense. All the time I'll see a free kick about 35/40 yards out (either for me or the opposition), and the full backs will have pushed up but have no-one marking them, so the ball gets played to them and they get to cross un-pressured.