TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[daleuk8]

try matching your tempo to dm's mentallity

[Jhoseh Mourinho]

I have sort of my own framworks. The AwayAtt is the same but I have a more balanced Home framwork where my settings are 10-11-12-13-14-15-16

Gk - 10

DC - 11

Fullbacks - 12

DMC - 13

MC - 14

Wingers - 15

Striker - 16

It's not as advantageous as wwfan's home framework which I found was a bit too attacking for my liking. I would probably use wwfan's if I was chasing a goal or was playing against really inferior teams or ultra defending ones but I like this set of mentalities

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

try matching your tempo to dm's mentallity </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I just played Wigan away - another high tempo, direct passing team. So I played with the tactic that I said above I've used before and had success with. Problem in this game was that it was a wet match, so I put the d-line 2 notches lower to 4 and put passing, width and tempo up to 9.

Because of this change, it meant that the tempo was similar to my MCd's mentality, which I had at 8. Struggled slightly in the first half, but a better second half saw me dominate and win 2-0. Had 16 shots in the end, 8 on target.

Hopefully that's the quick tempo teams sorted, now to deal with the tough away matches....

Jhoseh Mourinho: Those mentalities are nearly the same as I use for my home framework, but mine are from 12-16, with the keeper on 14.

[Dargone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I released the HomeAlt over at FMB but I don't think I put it in the FMDownloads set. Simply reduce mentality to 14 for the left-sided FC. Check target man and 'mixed' supply in team instructions. Leave all other instructions as is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When would you use the Homealt? Is it just a target man version? Thanks...

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dargone:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I released the HomeAlt over at FMB but I don't think I put it in the FMDownloads set. Simply reduce mentality to 14 for the left-sided FC. Check target man and 'mixed' supply in team instructions. Leave all other instructions as is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would probably use it for all home versions now as the low mentality FC is vital for building up play, but currently I use it with a 'to mixed' target man.

When would you use the Homealt? Is it just a target man version? Thanks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Dargone]

Ok, so you don't use HomeAtt or HomeDef anymore? Or do you use them still per the readme without any adjustments?

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dargone:

Ok, so you don't use HomeAtt or HomeDef anymore? Or do you use them still per the readme without any adjustments? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a newer version of the HomeAtt a lot. The HomeDef I have rarely employed, but it works very well against lower division teams when playing away in the cups.

[Dargone]

Is the newer version being tested or available on the site? Or is it just a few tweaks?

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dargone:

Is the newer version being tested or available on the site? Or is it just a few tweaks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tweaked creative freedom for wingers and the lower TM settings. I never quite use the tactics I release as I change certain settings with regards to the players I have. For example, my current left-back crosses to 18 but passes to 8, so I have him set to crosses often and through balls rarley. The right back can pass OK but not cross at all so it is crossing rarely, TTB mixed for him.

[Dargone]

Right, makes sense. I'm just trying to get a framework before I start tweaking to my players. What is TM? Also, what setting do you tweak more for your players? Like crosses, RWB, TTB, Long Shots, and maybe creative fredom?

[Dargone]

Also, let's say your scout notices a particularly nasty Winger/MC/ST on their team? Will you do anything different against him in the opposition screen?

[Rasta Kyle]

Well, I finally got my xbox360 version of FM07 here in the states. I fired up a game as Stevenage and used the slider apathy tactics that led to glory in FM06. Hmm, I had a great first year, narrowly missing out on promotion in a playoff. In year two I couldn't win a game to save my life. I went about 5 games without scoring a goal! Anyway, I guess it was re-ranking and I just couldn't adjust and got the sack.

Sooooo, having been kicked in the teeth I got up and started a new game as Stevenage using random players this time. With dismay, I saw my team was just terrible. I mean really bad.

So I read this thread a few times, and created a home and away Rule Of One tactic as wfan laid them out. I've been busy as hell at work so it took me a couple of hours over two days to get it setup. Ouch.....

Anyway, last night I finally had a chance to actually play a game.

Steveange vs Port Vale at home in a friendly.

1st half, I dominate and lead 3-0. 2nd half, I score again and lead 4-0 until Vale gets a late goal. 4-1 with a pretty poor looking team.

Hey, it's only game and I need to test the away tactic but I sure liked how the lads looked in game one against better opposition.

Thanks everyone for the great discussion.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dargone:

Also, let's say your scout notices a particularly nasty Winger/MC/ST on their team? Will you do anything different against him in the opposition screen? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am beginning to experiment with it, especially heavy closing down and heavy tackling on slow midfileders lacking in bravery. I am less likely to start a match with specific instructions against a quality player but may use opposition instructions on him if he is really causing trouble.

@ Rasta Kyle: Will be looking forward to hearing how you gat on. Good opening result.

[Millie]

In the past few games, I've tried to build from the back and achieve results based on keeping the opposition to nil.

Initially had a lot of success playing quite narrow, both home and away, and keeping my wing players on a higher closing down and hard tackling. As my team has very little pace, it seems to keep the opposition more or less in check. Chances are fewer for me, but of better quality.

It's certainly improved my away record, but I'm not sure how it fits into the idea of marrying tempo, passing and width.

[crazy gra]

I'm really struggling with away matches at the moment. Home games are fine, I just played Chelsea, Boro and Villa at home and won 1-0, 3-0 and 8-0 respectively, so I don;t have any problems there at the moment.

The problem I'm having in most away matches is that I'm just not effective. I'll finish a lot of away games having lost with the last commentary line saying something along the lines of 'the opposition being lucky' or 'how did Man Utd lose this?' you know the ones I mean.

Stats-wise, the games will have been quite even but the result is going my way. Played a game yesterday away to Blackburn, who were bottom of the Prem and had lost their last 3 games. I lost that 4-1, but had dominated, especially in the 1st half but I was 2-0 down at half time.

Going to try some different things with width to see if that makes a change.

I also still think there's a keeper bias in FM07 like there was in FM06, but I don't want to base an argument around that.

[crazy gra]

Spent a good bit of time tonight making a new away tactic to play against possession minded teams. Seeing as a more possession type of style seemed to work against teams who play direct and quick, I decided to play quicker and more direct against possession teams.

Mentality is a RoO system from 6-10.

Passing and tempo are 12, but width is 15.

Also had counter attack on.

Played the Blackburn game again and absolutely battered them, once again Friedel having a blinder. Had better possession, about 15 shots and 9 SOTs. All the chances were for me except 2 free kicks for them. Alas, it finished 0-0 but this was a great performance.

Played this again. Don't like to replay games now I'm trying to play a game properly, but wanted to check this. Again, played brilliantly and this time won 2-0. Shot count was similar (14), but only had 4 SOTs oddly. Due to the performace and the number of shots, that shouldn't be too worrying. More to report later...

[daleuk8]

is wwfan still about?

[crazy gra]

Yes, I'm quite sure he is, but usually isn't on at the weekend.

[daleuk8]

crazy gra, how you getting on with your new tactic?

[crazy gra]

Home tactic is better, but away games are a pain in the arse all the time anyway.

[daleuk8]

where is everyone? wwfan you mentioned you were testing a new away tactic. hows it going?

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

where is everyone? wwfan you mentioned you were testing a new away tactic. hows it going? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Patience, my friend. This is a hot topic so there'll be plenty of discussion to come.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

where is everyone? wwfan you mentioned you were testing a new away tactic. hows it going? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty happy with it. I have three systems that I employ against top/middle/poor teams. It is basically an attempt to rework Kristianhnohr's sliding mentlaity systems into a more realistic set of instructions that make use of d-line, closing down and forward runs rather than 14 different mentality frameworks. Although I haven't gone through the season unbeaten like he did with Parma I have managed to remain competitive away and do very well against the top sides. Picking the right system against teams in mid-table is less successfule and I nearly always beat the bottom sides.

I am six matches off finishing the season. When I do (hopefully tomorrow) I'll write an expanded update.

[Jhoseh Mourinho]

One tip I have (which I thought I'd post in here) is that if you do use an all man-marking defence (like wwfan does) then against one striker switch the central DC's to zonal. It works so much better then the man marking system as if the striker goes left the left dc will follow and if he goes right then the right striker will follow.

Theoretically it could work even better if you use a DC with one mentality lower then the other as that would faulter any attack the FC would have down the middle. Haven't tested it myself but theoretically it could work

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

where is everyone? wwfan you mentioned you were testing a new away tactic. hows it going? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty happy with it. I have three systems that I employ against top/middle/poor teams. It is basically an attempt to rework Kristianhnohr's sliding mentlaity systems into a more realistic set of instructions that make use of d-line, closing down and forward runs rather than 14 different mentality frameworks. Although I haven't gone through the season unbeaten like he did with Parma I have managed to remain competitive away and do very well against the top sides. Picking the right system against teams in mid-table is less successfule and I nearly always beat the bottom sides.

I am six matches off finishing the season. When I do (hopefully tomorrow) I'll write an expanded update. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you just change system depending on how you rate the ability of the opposition?

I feel that I need a system against fast tempo teams (for away games) or else I'll really struggle, and they could be near the top of the bottom of the league, too.

[daleuk8]

wwfan how did your last six games go?

[Louis1985]

A few questions for wwfan, but great stuff thi by the way. Im about to experiment with some of your methods. Anyway....

Have you used these systems at all levels? Because I worried lesser sides might not be able to handle the tactics because of complexity.

Also, What passing do you tend to employ home and away these days? Im guessing you vary it depending on opposition.

Finally, do you tweak these tactics a lot or are they generally sound?

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Louis1985:

A few questions for wwfan, but great stuff thi by the way. Im about to experiment with some of your methods. Anyway....

Have you used these systems at all levels? Because I worried lesser sides might not be able to handle the tactics because of complexity.

Also, What passing do you tend to employ home and away these days? Im guessing you vary it depending on opposition.

Finally, do you tweak these tactics a lot or are they generally sound? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, they were designed for lesser sides (Conference regional). Most people have complained that they don't work as well for better sides, actually.

The tactics aren't complex. They ask for very minimal creative freedom, and they keep a simple shape. There may be quite a few sliders to change, but in terms of style of play it's a bog-standard, no-frills 4-4-2. This is a problem for higher teams, not lower ones.

[Louis1985]

I see, so whats the problem with better sides? Is it that they require more tweaking? It seems a little bit unrealistic that a no frills tactic doesnt work for the better sides, as lots of teams in the top two tiers employ very disciplined and simple systems. The slider movement did make it look a little complex to me at first but I see your point now I have overlooked them a second time. In this case I will use some of the principles and try to design a similar framework that works for better teams! Cheers for the feedback Millie

[timpino]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Louis1985:

I see, so whats the problem with better sides? Is it that they require more tweaking? It seems a little bit unrealistic that a no frills tactic doesnt work for the better sides, as lots of teams in the top two tiers employ very disciplined and simple systems. The slider movement did make it look a little complex to me at first but I see your point now I have overlooked them a second time. In this case I will use some of the principles and try to design a similar framework that works for better teams! Cheers for the feedback Millie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tactic is simple in the way of creative freedom and passing... a team like man utd may play a straight forward 4-4-2 but they allow their players to make their own decisions, something conference nationals postmen and milkmen needs

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Louis1985:

I see, so whats the problem with better sides? Is it that they require more tweaking? It seems a little bit unrealistic that a no frills tactic doesnt work for the better sides, as lots of teams in the top two tiers employ very disciplined and simple systems. The slider movement did make it look a little complex to me at first but I see your point now I have overlooked them a second time. In this case I will use some of the principles and try to design a similar framework that works for better teams! Cheers for the feedback Millie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought I would come in and throw in my six pence whilst I've got some dead time at work. I think when wwfan designed these tactics he had Blyth in mind (right?) So he was working with a squad with little or no talent. The way he went around this is getting key players (targetman, creative midfielder etc etc) to fit into his tactic. Now in the lower leagues you can get away with this because unless the opposition have a real talent then you can beat anyone.

I think that the problem that arises in the higher leagues is that you need to utilise the squad you have and looking at wwfan's tactics he has everyone on low CF bar the central midfielder. I think in the higher leagues you can keep the DC's and GK on high CF but you're going to have to give freedom elsewhere like the DMC and fullbacks given low normal, wingers and strikers a higher normal.

I also think in the higher leagues you're going to have to unlock the d-line from the framework and also unlock width somewhat from the passing and tempo. Before leaving London (and my FM behind ) I had good success with a low d-line and wide formation with the tempo and passing dead center. I would probably never go short with wide because that will require great players but I think tempo and passing are definately linked

Anyway that's me six pence. Don't know what other people think?

[Guest dreameR.25]

I would have thought that tempo and closing down have a stronger link than tempo and passing surely?

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dreameR.25:

I would have thought that tempo and closing down have a stronger link than tempo and passing surely? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tempo is more about urgencey to get the ball upfield and create a chance. I can see why a lot of people confuse this with how fast paced you want the game to be but alas this is not the case.

I'm not saying that slow tempo and short passing is the option because short and quick tempo is the trademark of some clubs (Man United and Arsenal) however I would say you need quite a high creative freedom to pull that off so you make players take up good positions and look for killer passes.

At the end of the day the possiblities are endless when it comes to selecting tactics and it really depends on the quality of players you have. I think wwfan has been smart in taking a British view of FM because it does favour the English way of playing and his direct from the back, big man and little man combo at the front is definatly one of the ways to go in FM. Doesn't the mean the game is one dimensional because of it, it just means it favours this way of playing.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Louis1985:

I see, so whats the problem with better sides? Is it that they require more tweaking? It seems a little bit unrealistic that a no frills tactic doesnt work for the better sides, as lots of teams in the top two tiers employ very disciplined and simple systems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I timpino and Justified have basically made my point for me.

A tight, no frills formation allows no creativity, which is the strength of a good side. It also spends 90% of its time focussing on stopping the opposition scoring. Well, against sides weaker than you that's useless because most of the time they're not attempting to score anyway. Play becomes boring, predictable and 0-0s and 0-1s are going to come thick and fast.

Don't confuse discipline and 'tightness' with simplicity. There's a lot more going on in a good Manchester United tactic in terms of creative freedom and other little nuances than people realise. It's the skill of the players that makes it look effortless.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dreameR.25

I would have thought that tempo and closing down have a stronger link than tempo and passing surely? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would echo Jus' on that one and also add that for lower class sides short and quick will probably fall flat on its arse simply because, as he notes, it requires inteligence and creativity to pull off.

It's not a hard and fast rule, but I bet the majority of guys do it: tempo should be the same or higher than passing.

Who ever heard of a direct slow game? Come to think of it, has anyone even tried?

[Justified]

Slow direct build up Give it a try Millie and tell us how you get on

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Louis1985:

A few questions for wwfan, but great stuff thi by the way. Im about to experiment with some of your methods. Anyway....

Have you used these systems at all levels?

I have used versions of the frameworks from Conf North to Preemiership and with Barca in Spain. Millie is right in regarding the systems as being designed for smaller teams but they are easy to adapt to bigger sides. I played half a season with Barcelona and had to change some things, noticebly Creative Freedom up front, high FWRs for the FBs, and no counter attack for all home and 1/3 of away games. However, I remained unbeaten with Barca including a 10-0 home win in the league so the adaptations worked well.

I worry lesser sides might not be able to handle the tactics because of complexity.

If you are styarting at Conf Regional level the basic Home and Away systems are all you need and you should cruise the division. At higher levels the AttAway framework is much more effective than the Away as the ultra-defensive mentality of the Away system leads to more skillful sides than Conf Regional being able to keep you under too much pressure.

Also, What passing do you tend to employ home and away these days?

I use the same passing set-up for home and away games, directish at the back, mixed for MCs, short up front with a mixed tempo. However, for home games I remove TTB for the DCs and GK.

Finally, do you tweak these tactics a lot or are they generally sound?

I tweak between the three AttAway systems I briefly outline on the previous page and 3 home systems, one being as explained in the opening post, one being without counter-attack ticked and the last one having high FWRs FBs, wider and quicker to defeat the ultra-defensive AI. However, I tend to always start with the middle tactic of each set of three and only change if match stats aren't going my way after the 10-15 min mark. They are sound enough defensively to stop a wrong choice being destroyed in that time so you can switch and save the game.

I intend to write a more detailed piece on my current setup over the weekend which should explain a little more.

Justified's comments about unlinking d-line are justified!! I don't totally unlink it but I do play around with it within the frameworks to make it slightly deeper or higher depending on how much pressure I expect to be under or exert. I also adjust FWRs in conjunction with this.

As he also said, I designed it with a British footballing mentality in mind so it is direct and has some tempo. It should be easily adaptable to other styles of play if you make logical changes throughout the system.

[Louis1985]

Finally, got a system thats working for me. Thanks wwfan some of your theories and methods have worked wonders. Am proud to say I designed my own tactics incorporating some of the things in this post. Have just downloaded the new patch and started unemployed. Got the Bradford job and have had a great pre season followed by a convincing 3-0 win at home to swansea in the first game. This is with a poor squad and no money!!!

I fully recommend these theories of the game to anyone (I know many have already had success). Great work wwfan. P.S The rule of one is the way forward, not the rule of two!

[kenichan]

not critiscing your efforts or anything but i have just lost mt first game using your tactics 3-0 to a side 10 places below me

[Louis1985]

Doesnt work perfectly for everyone kenichan, you have to fit these methods around your own tactics. Using them to the letter wont help you. wwfan's players and style will be very different to yours. Its getting the methods to work for you. I like these tactics to be honest, I have built a system around them that is fairly good but you do still have to tweak etc. I just lost 2-1 at home to millwall but that was down to an off day from my players. You have to just keep plugging away and stick to what youre doing ;-)

[Nistelrooy_is_back]

talk too much.. can give a conclusion?

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nistelrooy_is_back:

talk too much.. can give a conclusion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?

The conclusion, I suppose, is the TT&F RoO/RoT set.

But come on. You can't describe how you play the game in two sentences and a download so that you can go away and win the quadruple with Newcastle. It doesn't work like that.

The advice here is invaluable. Not always applicable to your style of play, not always, even, correct. But it's an excellent start for debate.

This is a forum - a place for discussion and to bounce ideas off one another. It's not a download site.

Besides - here's a conclusion - E=MC^2. Right, explain that to me in less than four sentences, with my rudimentary GCSE Physics.

Aaaaaand go!

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nistelrooy_is_back:

talk too much.. can give a conclusion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humph.. Sometimes I even wonder why we spend so much time posting our findings when you people like this not even taking the time to read it. If you don't want to read it all then just try and figure out the game yourself

[Justified]

A few more ideas I had as I sit here and really longing now to get my computer back

Right I've been pondering a bit about mentalities and a few other things and it'd be great if someone could give em' a whirl whilst I anticipate my computer coming the end of this week.

1)All "front-men" on same mentality. Basically you set up your defenders and goalkeeper etc to the mentality you want and then I would think wingers, attacking midfielders (as in out and out AMC's) and strikers on the same mentality. I'm thinking in terms of attack and defence.

In attack theoretically you'd want your most attacking players to be on the same level and as we have learnt from global mentality that all players play as a unit however you have no upper hand against the AI as they do exactly the same (well in FM06 anyways but I swear in FM07 I have seen the AI play with strikers with higher mentality then the rest of the team). However setting up your defence and midfield (MC and DMC) diffrently and your "cutting edge" players to the same mentality. Or if you play two strikers you could have one with a higher mentality (most likely a fast striker) and that way the target man is in the linkup play more.

Also I said that maybe for defensive reasons it could benefit as well because if you think about it the RoT makes you build a "ladder" so in attack it makes sense. However in defence you could see a little side effect seeing as your striker pushes your team back because you're playing off his mentality so wingers nad midfielders could be playing lower then they really should. All theoritical of course because I haven't really paid that much attention

2) Fullbacks - A god send? If we think in terms of setting your defenders (and if playing a DMC) you would prefer a little more defensive orientation for them so if they are defensive and are being cautious about their passing (seeing as urgency is a little linked to mentality) how are you going to get the ball forward? Well that's where upping the mentality for fullbacks could come in great use. Seeing as they are playing next to the CD's they could pass them quite easily and if they are on a higher mentality then they could find the attacking players more easily.

Player instructions and Creative Freedom Also a thing I've been thinking of. Now if you have, say a winger, with high dribbling, technique and flair. You instantly think he should have RWB often. However if don't give him a normal-high CF then he can't work it effectively enough. If he doesn't have a higher CF then he can't use his talent to get past men at full effect. Same when you give a good passing midfielder TTB. I think they need at least normal mentality to do this otherwise on low you're asking them to keep it nice and simple and it's hard to do that hwen you're asked to do through balls aswell because you're asking them to take a risk and on the other hand you're telling them to play safe. You can see what I'm getting at.

Anyways there is some brain food if someone want's to try it out please post any findings

[Justified]

Pushed Post Now a little bit too early. Had one more thing to add ->

3) The 5-5-5-5 CD defence

Was thinking a bit about a framework for the ever popular back four and DMC combo where you have everyone on a space fo 5 between their CD. So it would look a little like this -

GK - 1

DC - 5

Fullbacks - 10

DMC - 15

I think that is theoretically the most logigal closing down for that sort of system. Low CD for CD's and a mixed for fullbacks and a higher for a sweeping midfielder in front to stop attacks against the CD's.

[wwfan]

@ Nistelrooy_is_back: I relaise English isn't your first language and a thread like this would put you off, but as Millie said, it is more of a set of ideas that lead to and continue debate. The only conclusions are what you make of it yourself.

@ Justified: You must have incredible ESP to be able to write on here without access to a computer.

Front Men Mentality

Read this thread. In theory, you already have as you have been credited for writing it, but.....

Fullbacks

They are absolutely vital when trying to defeat 10 men or break down a stubbornly defensive AI. I would use them on a high mentality then, but all my team would be. However, the manual explicity warns against having defenders on two high a mentality difference so you would have to link them with the DCs as much as possible.

Player Instructions and Creative Freedom

I couldn't agree more.

The 5-5-5-5-CD Defence

I think this should work unless you are a playing a highly aggressive and skilful opponent. You may find that the FBs give too much space up on the wings.

[daleuk8]

CAN SOMEBODY HELP? i'm conceding a lot of goals with ball being launched over the top. because i fowlow the ro0. but what happens when your scouts say to defend deep? because in some frame works you'd be breaking the link with d line and the mid point.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

CAN SOMEBODY HELP? i'm conceding a lot of goals with ball being launched over the top. because i fowlow the ro0. but what happens when your scouts say to defend deep? because in some frame works you'd be breaking the link with d line and the mid point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Questions:

Are you closing down heavily and light tackling with the FCs and wingers?

Are you tight/man marking with the defenders?

Are they quick?

Are they poor in the air?

Are they closing down lightly?

[daleuk8]

im tight marking with all defenders. no i think im closing down heavy with both fcs, and 11 on wingers, not sure abouth speed, im blackburn, i use henchoz, warnock, ooijer, alpay and riogbert song. dcs close down at 6, full backs at ten

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:

im tight marking with all defenders. no i think im closing down heavy with both fcs, and 11 on wingers, not sure abouth speed, im blackburn, i use henchoz, warnock, ooijer, alpay and riogbert song. dcs close down at 6, full backs at ten </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you have time to check, close down to at least 15 with forwards and wingers, all with light tackling. Try to have all the back four closing down to the same setting (5-6). If the DCs are slow (at least two will be) put the d-line to the lowest outfield mentality setting you have. That should help.

[Benoit2]

The best way to design tactics to beat the ai, is to first know exactly how the ai play so you can try to counter act that. Things like how much they close down with certain formations (4-4-2 with and without arrows etc), what tempo they play etc.

Im not talking about scout reports, because besides the fact they (still) arent very in depth, after six months into the game I always get the same report anyway (defensive 4-4-2 on the counter, possesion football etc). What Im talking about is looking at (parts of) full matches to see just what kind of system the employ.

Im sure some of you do, but I dont remember ever having read anything in depth about this.

ive currently got a savegame where I am Chelsea (first season) and I play Middlesbrough away next, and Middlesbrough are just extremely defensive. They play at home, but they still play 4-4-2 without arrows. Not only that, but after about 30 minutes in, when it is still 0-0, they actually go to the 3-3-2-1-1 (which I rarely see anymore in FM07).

Despite me playing a fairly conservative counter-attacking tactic, it still generally works relatively well against defensive opponents. Against Middlesbrough however, I really hardly get anything done. Im re-playing the match several times to really get to the bottom of things and see why I cant get anything done.

One thing in particular caught my eye. They play the 4-4-2 without any arrows, I play the 4-3-3 normal with short forward arrows on the MC's. I noticed during goalkicks that their two central midfielders actually dropped to DMC. (whilst my MC's pushed up to AMC) When I removed the arrows on my MC's, their MC's didnt drop to DMC anymore at goalkicks.

Then I paid close attention to the four MC's when the ball was in play, and it became obvious that their MC's where man marking my MC's. Maybe even specific man marking, because at times they very quickly got tight on my MC's when they where still a few metres away, which looked similar to what I've seen when I employed specific man marking.

Its actually quite a long post to just bring this thing to attention, and perhaps it is already commonly known, but I might as well post it, because maybe its not

Anyway, this is of course just one observation of the tactic the (very defensive) ai employ and it still needs a solution to counter act it, but I wouldnt mind hearing other's observations about tactics the ai uses in different situations (defensive formations, attacking, neutral etc). Now its time for me to go to bed though...