TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[HectorSpector]

Try taking some screenshots with different team mentalities... I doubt if you will see any positional difference on the 2d match. On low team mentality, possession is increased at the expense of attacking chances, but the chances you do create should be of better quality, and there will be far less aimless balls played up to the strikers.

[Gordon Comstock]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Having now taken over a big side and being 1-6 to win my home games, I'm finally having to deal with the AI's favoured ultra-defensive formations. It does seem that the Britishness of my current set needs to be downplayed to retain possession while still creating chances. Currently, I have 60% plus possession but struggle to score. I think breaking the passing/tempo/width link may be the answer, but mentality may play a part to. Likewise, higher creative freedom for front players may be required. I'll update when I have any solid findings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been playing a thoroughly optimistic short(est) passing, high(est) tempo, very attacking and wide game with Arsenal and I'm averaging around 60% possession at the moment. It utilises high creative freedom for a couple of players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>would you care to share in OTF or over MSN?

[Asmodeus]

Either- this one's custom-built for Arsenal though.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HectorSpector:

Try taking some screenshots with different team mentalities... I doubt if you will see any positional difference on the 2d match. On low team mentality, possession is increased at the expense of attacking chances, but the chances you do create should be of better quality, and there will be far less aimless balls played up to the strikers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I know there is a difference, but it will be interesting to see how the team perform.

To be honest, I don't want my players either positioned way down the pitch away from home or way up the pitch at home. I want them to be more attacking or more defensive, which isn't always the same thing.

Like I say, it's hypothetical and may be absolutely rubbish. But it will be an interesting contrast, that's all.

[Millie]

Just got in a cheeky match before the Bolton-Arsenal game.

So, I played offside trap, zonal and tight marking on my defence first half against a superior side (Forest Green Rovers). Score, 2-4.

Moved to no offsides, man marking, no tight matking for the second half. Score, 4-5.

I love the goals I'm getting out of this system, but my defence needs a lot of work (mainly due to it's shitness). Still, 2-4 with zonal, 2-1 with man against a superior side holds promise. I'm taking screen shots as I go to try and see some sort of difference, but I don't have another away game for a while yet. I will definitely keep you posted.

[HectorSpector]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

To be honest, I don't want my players either positioned way down the pitch away from home or way up the pitch at home. I want them to be more attacking or more defensive, which isn't always the same thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's the way I do it.

[iacovone]

To wwfan

I have made a home attacking formation based on your opening theories, and it is working reasonably well in serie C1B. However I was wondering what you would recommend to do for the last 20-15 mins of a home game? If for example I was up 1 goal. I've currently not altered much and either scraped the win or conceded a late goal, I know I should be adopting a more defensive formation but was wondering what you had in mind? Currently I've tried the Away mentality based on your ideas and not found great success...

If it has already been answered in this thread I apologise, great advice though, KUTGW!

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

Just got in a cheeky match before the Bolton-Arsenal game.

So, I played offside trap, zonal and tight marking on my defence first half against a superior side (Forest Green Rovers). Score, 2-4.

Moved to no offsides, man marking, no tight matking for the second half. Score, 4-5.

I love the goals I'm getting out of this system, but my defence needs a lot of work (mainly due to it's shitness). Still, 2-4 with zonal, 2-1 with man against a superior side holds promise. I'm taking screen shots as I go to try and see some sort of difference, but I don't have another away game for a while yet. I will definitely keep you posted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'ma big fan of man-marking in 07 as it finally seems to be fixed. It certainly tightens the defence, although zonal plus opposition instructions can do the same thing.

@ iacovone: I tend to switch to the AwayAtt framework on about 70 mins in a tight game, maybe to Away for the last five.

[crazy gra]

I much prefer man marking, but has anyone tried specific marking and found it to be a nightmare if someone changes position?

Started testing tempo in a game away to Celtic, but was having problems defending. I've played this game quite a few times and it seems to be defending crosses that are my downfall. To reduce their crossing effectivness, I've done these:

- swapped defenders around so that my taller defenders are marking the opposition's taller strikers and wingers. e.g. when playing against Celtic, they've started with Jarosik at ML so I swapped Vidic and Neville around but also made sure Neville wasn't marking Vennegor.O.H. Likewise, against Bolton, they'll play Vaz Te at ML so having a tall DR is useful again there.

- Put all defenders on man marking.

- Using opposition instructions to ensure tight marking on the STs and wingers, as well as hard tackling and show onto weaker foot for the wingers and always closing down and show onto weaker foot for the full backs.

The main problem I get with trying to defend crosses is the opposition full backs getting forward. They'll often be unmarked, and although in a deep position, cause a threat because they'll draw my full back out to close them down, thus leaving the winger in space.

[iacovone]

Nice one wwfan, i'll start giving that a go.

[wwfan]

From the Horses Mouth

....well, Neil Dejyothin's actually....

The Individual Player Instructions override the Team Instructions where they are like for like. If you set an "All Out Attacking" mentality on the Team Instructions and then individually set all the players to an "Ultra Defensive" mentality - they will play ultra defensively providing this option is ticked and activated.

[Asmodeus]

Finally an answer!

[crazy gra]

Indeed, will be interesting to see if Millie notices any differences between changing his team mentality.

[Justified]

I haven't posted in this thread yet but am I the only one who still is having decent success with the RoT? I'm still using my diamond from FM06 and it still works. Needed a bit of tweaking but that's it.

wwfan I'm sure you had a diamond on FM06 as well? Have you tried it on FM07?

Asmo are you still playing RoT?

[Asmodeus]

Nope. Not playing at all now my five day old MacBook display has died.

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Nope. Not playing at all now my five day old MacBook display has died. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never liked Macs

But you have played FM07 though surely?

[HectorSpector]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

Indeed, will be interesting to see if Millie notices any differences between changing his team mentality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many have noticed an obvious change.

I don't understand why there's 22 settings for team mentality, and 20 for individual mentality if they are mutually exclusive.

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Nope. Not playing at all now my five day old MacBook display has died. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never liked Macs

But you have played FM07 though surely? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was great for five days.

Of course, to death. I started with the old SLider Apathy style, then moved onto RoT; then back to SlAp again, then flirted briefly with Rule of One.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

I haven't posted in this thread yet but am I the only one who still is having decent success with the RoT? I'm still using my diamond from FM06 and it still works. Needed a bit of tweaking but that's it.

wwfan I'm sure you had a diamond on FM06 as well? Have you tried it on FM07?

Asmo are you still playing RoT? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still convinced RoT works perfectly with a multi-strata system and a diamond, with 5 strata should work fine. The 4-4-2, which only has three strata, is much more difficult to build. As I'm as stubborn as a mule I'm going to keep on working it until I have it right. Interestingly, The next Diaby still believes his RoT system to be better than his RoO, despite performing well with both.

And Macs rule!

@ HectorSpector: The debate is dead, whatever many may think. Neil is one of the voices of SI and without me asking PaulC for absolute confirmation his word has has to be taken as gospel. Team mentality DOES NOT work in tandem with individual but is over-ridden. I agree that the 22 versus 20 settings make things a bit confusing, but there you go. Some things just aren't meant to make sense.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

@ HectorSpector: The debate is dead, whatever many may think. Neil is one of the voices of SI and without me asking PaulC for absolute confirmation his word has has to be taken as gospel. Team mentality DOES NOT work in tandem with individual but is over-ridden. I agree that the 22 versus 20 settings make things a bit confusing, but there you go. Some things just aren't meant to make sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We'll see.

[Benoit2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

@ HectorSpector: The debate is dead, whatever many may think. Neil is one of the voices of SI and without me asking PaulC for absolute confirmation his word has has to be taken as gospel. Team mentality DOES NOT work in tandem with individual but is over-ridden. I agree that the 22 versus 20 settings make things a bit confusing, but there you go. Some things just aren't meant to make sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know Cleon thinks otherwise, be interested to hear his thoughts. Im sure he'd be interested to hear this as well.

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm still convinced RoT works perfectly with a multi-strata system and a diamond, with 5 strata should work fine. The 4-4-2, which only has three strata, is much more difficult to build. As I'm as stubborn as a mule I'm going to keep on working it until I have it right. Interestingly, The next Diaby still believes his RoT system to be better than his RoO, despite performing well with both. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha so this is what this thread is all about. Your stubborness to actually get a flat 4-4-2 to work.

So you're saying you wouldn't use RoO with a 4-4-2 Diamond?

I think I read on your opening post about the "demise" of RoT that it doesn't work purely because players are too far away from each other and there is gaps. Was that with the flat 4-4-2 you meant or in general?

[Justified]

LOL You guys are still having the team v individual mentality settings debate? Personally I don't think it overrides. I think it is there for those "casual" gamers that just want to create Global Mentality tactics. One of my mates dominated Serie A with Palermo and when I asked him what tactics he'd used he said he selected the 4-4-2 Free and that was it

As for why there is 22 for Team is because Ultra Defensive and All-Out Attack does override individual mentality because of it's extremeness. I personally never use them.

[thomit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

LOL You guys are still having the team v individual mentality settings debate? Personally I don't think it overrides. I think it is there for those "casual" gamers that just want to create Global Mentality tactics. One of my mates dominated Serie A with Palermo and when I asked him what tactics he'd used he said he selected the 4-4-2 Free and that was it :

As for why there is 22 for Team is because Ult

ra Defensive and All-Out Attack does override individual mentality because of it's extremeness. I personally never use them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your mate is on to something, I think

But seriously: I have the utmost respect for WWfan's research and these threads, but I think you guys are over-complicating things a bit.

The default 442's works well with very little tweaking needed - just a bit of individual instructions are needed here and there. At least if you have a good team. IMHO.

[Justified]

I think over-complicating things is a harsh word. I would call it trying to defeat the AI. Yes it might be overcomplicating it but if you have a framework that could be solid attacking and defensively then why just stop at global mentality tactics? I find global mentality so one dimensional and it doesn't feel like I've done any work and sometimes you can get more out of team by tweaking so that's a no no from me.

[thomit]

Fair enough.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

I haven't posted in this thread yet but am I the only one who still is having decent success with the RoT? I'm still using my diamond from FM06 and it still works. Needed a bit of tweaking but that's it.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm using a RoT system in my away tactic. It's given me some good results (4-1 away to Arsenal) but I've now made a different away tactic that uses a RoO system for 'easier' away games as the RoT wasn't too sucessful in those games.

[filipe_fonseca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm still convinced RoT works perfectly with a multi-strata system and a diamond, with 5 strata should work fine. The 4-4-2, which only has three strata, is much more difficult to build. As I'm as stubborn as a mule I'm going to keep on working it until I have it right. Interestingly, The next Diaby still believes his RoT system to be better than his RoO, despite performing well with both. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha so this is what this thread is all about. Your stubborness to actually get a flat 4-4-2 to work.

So you're saying you wouldn't use RoO with a 4-4-2 Diamond?

I think I read on your opening post about the "demise" of RoT that it doesn't work purely because players are too far away from each other and there is gaps. Was that with the flat 4-4-2 you meant or in general? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been using RoO with a diamond formation and it's been working very well. I've somewhat of a slump now, but I'm not sure the mentality frameworks are the problem here.

In this game, I had a terrific first season with Workington, only losing 5 matches, including cups. I was getting better performances than I ever had with RoT back in FM06. I won Conference North with 92 points, and the best defense by far.

However, after 5 or 6 games into the second season, we hit a bad slump. I thought tactical change was required, and I think I might have made some wrong changes to my tactics. I'm now beginning my third season and I'm not satisfied with the results I'm getting.

When I get some quality playing time I intend to go back to my old tactics. Maybe they need minor tweaks, but they were just so effective in Conference North, I have to try them again.

Anyway, this little story goes to show that RoO can work wonderfully with a diamond formation. As for my tactics, if I get them right again I'll post my findings here.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm still convinced RoT works perfectly with a multi-strata system and a diamond, with 5 strata should work fine. The 4-4-2, which only has three strata, is much more difficult to build. As I'm as stubborn as a mule I'm going to keep on working it until I have it right. Interestingly, The next Diaby still believes his RoT system to be better than his RoO, despite performing well with both. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha so this is what this thread is all about. Your stubborness to actually get a flat 4-4-2 to work.

So you're saying you wouldn't use RoO with a 4-4-2 Diamond?

I think I read on your opening post about the "demise" of RoT that it doesn't work purely because players are too far away from each other and there is gaps. Was that with the flat 4-4-2 you meant or in general? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would happily use RoO to build a Diamond. If it works as a 4-4-2 it should work in any other formation. As for the team versus mentality debate, I have always agreed with what you said, that individual overrides team, as it does in eevry other instruction set. Neil has confirmed this with his example. Even though the question he was asked was not mentality specific he chose mentality to illustrate the point. His example aslo seems to indicate that the extremes don't overide either.

As for (another) complaint about me overcomplicating things....I don't think building alternative mentality frameworks is overcomplicating. I don't complicate things as much as thse who tweak every match for every situation and scout report. I just chose one of my custom defaults and go with that.

@ filipe fonseca: Jumping from Conf North to Conf National is probably the most difficult league changes in the game. I think the L2 to L1 switch is also tough, as is the Championship to the Premiership. However, Conf Nat to L2 is easy and if you win one you should win the other. The same can be said between L1 and Championship. Sign players on full-time contracts adn you will get better performances than simply changing tactics.

[Justified]

So you're saying that a RoO diamond (in your opinion) is better then a RoT diamond in Fm07?

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

So you're saying that a RoO diamond (in your opinion) is better then a RoT diamond in Fm07? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. It is certainly a better 4-4-2. I haven't played around enough with it to have an informed opinion. The next Diaby has built a RoO Diamond (the RoOmbus) which works well, but I haven't tested it enough or a RoT one for more than a few games. To be honest, if what you have is working then who am I to offer a critique?

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

So you're saying that a RoO diamond (in your opinion) is better then a RoT diamond in Fm07? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. It is certainly a better 4-4-2. I haven't played around enough with it to have an informed opinion. The next Diaby has built a RoO Diamond (the RoOmbus) which works well, but I haven't tested it enough or a RoT one for more than a few games. To be honest, if what you have is working then who am I to offer a critique? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no I was just asking for an opinion really. It all came about when I was just asking who still uses RoT but I can see quite a few people still do lean back on it so I'm happy I'm not the only one

[Millie]

First of all, I want to say that:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HectorSpector

Try taking some screenshots with different team mentalities... I doubt if you will see any positional difference on the 2d match. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were right. I took the pics, mirrored those that were kicking a different way and looked at them. I couldn't actually see much difference. Quite interesting. The team play totally differently, though. Away I sit back to the point of frustration before breaking to create a good chance. I need more chances, and I feel I hang back too much, but it's a decent start. Needs a lot of work. At home, I attack at will and am still pretty solid at the back. Could deal better with crosses, but I think my back line have a combined height of 3' 7".

However, I want you guys to judge for yourselves (if you're that bothered). Basically, the tactic is definitely a work in progress, but I am noticing a difference in playing style between my away tactic and my home tactic.

A few provisos. One, I'm not convinced one way or the other whether this works or not. My home form is incredible, and I'm knocking in goals for fun. My away form is not so impressive, though my counter attacks are methodical and lethal. My shot conversion percentage away is quite phenomenal, but I'm waiting for an off day. Anyway, here's a couple of files to take a gleg on:

Droylsden - Home Framework - 3-0

I've had far more convincing wins at home, but this is worth a look as I don't think I play that well. Shows the sorts of problems and strengths in the system, I feel. I'm rather prone to crosses in general (though Droylsden were pretty shoddy here, so you don't see that so much). It's worth comparing to the away framework, though, to see how the style of play is very different.

Kettering - Away Framework - 2-0

God knows how I won this one so convincingly. As you can see, Kettering had so many chances. My defence away from home doesn't usually give away so many great chances. Kettering usually have to shoot from range in this one, and when they get a decent look at goal they **** it up. Great for me, but really shows the flaws in the tactic (hence why I uploaded this one). I'm still having problems from crosses in general and have tried specifically man-marking the opposition wingers with my side midfielders or using the opposition instructions to always close down the opposition wingbacks. Some success on both fronts. However, the away system needs some serious work. It is making me wonder about the slider settings and whether I need to do more.

Take a look if you want. It sort of shows the fact that the team play differntly at home and away. I'll be honest, I don't know if that's due to the defensive line settings, natural style differences between home and away or what it is. There could be no effect at all in changing the sliders. However, it feels different.

This certainly isn't proof one way or the other, more a taster of what I'm seeing as I try and get this tactic to work. I'd like to know what some of you with more observant football minds think.

I'll leave you with my results so far (friendlies in brackets):

Home: (2-0; 4-5; 0-3); 5-4; 3-0; 3-0

Away: (1-1; 2-1); 1-1; 1-2; 2-0

[mr.rooney]

I don't really use the ROT, but I may soon fall back on it as I really am seemingly getting no-where at all. Out of interest Justified, do you use wwfan's other theories from TT&F III, such as mirroring system, or do you use some other system for assigning Creative Freedom, Closing Down, Passing Style etc?

[Millie]

Sorry! You can find the pkms in the 2007 directory on: http://fmdownloads.net/index.php?

[Justified]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.rooney:

I don't really use the ROT, but I may soon fall back on it as I really am seemingly getting no-where at all. Out of interest Justified, do you use wwfan's other theories from TT&F III, such as mirroring system, or do you use some other system for assigning Creative Freedom, Closing Down, Passing Style etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't really have a set "theory" when assinging CF, CD or passing. I kind of just do what I find logical for what level I'm playing at. So LL would mean less players with CF and more direct passing where as the higher in the league you get the more shorter you can have passing and more players on more creative freedom.

[crazy gra]

We talked a while ago about breaking the passing/tempo theory and would it be more effective for 'world class' teams to be playing a faster tempo whilst keeping a short passing system. Well, I've played a few games to test this. All as Man Utd (as usual) against Spurs at home.

I played two games with my normal style of passing, tempo and width at 4. The framework is a RoO system from 12-16. Results:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Result Shots For SOTs For Shots Ag SOTs Ag Possession

Spurs, home, normal 3-0 13 9 4 3 50%

Spurs, home, normal 2-0 14 8 6 1 52%

</pre>

Then I played two more games. Everything kept the same except raising tempo to 10. Results:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Result Shots For SOTs For Shots Ag SOTs Ag Possession

Spurs, home, tempo 10 4-0 8 5 8 3 52%

Spurs, home, tempo 10 0-0 7 3 6 3 51%

</pre>

Slightly mixed results, but I feel I was a lot more effective with tempo of 4. OK, I only played two games of each so it's not that conclusive, but the shot and SOT count is clearly in favour of tempo=4. Although I won the first tempo=10 game 4-0, one of the goals was an own goal.

[wwfan]

Cautiously Optimistic

As I mentioned before, I believed I was going to have to readjust my tactics now I was a big club with heavy expectations to win. I decided to enter a testing stage in which my fixture list gave me 5 games, all of which I should win. In early testing I was seeing what many people playing with big clubs complain about, few chances and poor performance. I decided to switch to my Home tactic for away games and the HomeAtt for the home ones.

I first increased closing down for my full-backs as a lot of my lost possession and chances against seemed to be coming when the full-backs failed to get close enough to the winger who then passed it backwards to his full-back who launched a cross into the area. This stopped with increased CD for full-backs. I then began to dominate possession in the opening two fixtures, but was drawing 0-0 or losing 1-0. I upped creative freedom for my wingers, lowered closing down for my quick forward. No real change. Then I decided to reinstitue the HomeAlt model in which one of the FCs plays as a target man and has the lowest mentality (equal to goalkeeper) on the pitch. He has 'mixed' balls played to him. Instant success. He dragged his marker out of position and played a huge number of key passes to breaking players. He also won a lot of key headers.

I am now playing by far and away the best football I have seen on 07.

Results

Game One: Osasuna Away

This was the game in which I switched to the HomeAlt mentality half way through the first half when I was losing 1-0.

Score: W 4-1

Shots: 15

SOT: 7

Poss: 54%

PassP: 69%

Two goals from corners and two from open play. Target man scored one, made one, match rating 10. His strike partner scored one. Two DCs grabbed one each from set-plays.

Game Two: Salamanca Home

Score: W 10-0

Shots: 21

SOT: 11

Poss: 55%

PassP: 74%

Four players played to a 10. Two goals from set-pieces, two own goals. Target man scored four, made two. Strike partner scored one, made one. Left winger scored two, made two.

Game Three: Besitkas Away

Score: W 4-1

Shots: 25

SOT: 11

Poss: 53%

PassP: 71%

Target man scored one, made one. Stike partner grabbed a hat-trick.

Game Four: Deportivo Away

Score: W 3-1

Shots: 13

SOT: 5

Poss: 52%

PassP: 65%

Strange game. I was three-nil up after 8 minutes with the target man getting all three before having a DC sent off (straight red) on 10 mins. Deportivo had a man sent off on 60 when the score was still 3-0 before scoring a blatantly offside goal three minutes before time.

Game Five: Mallorca Home

Score: W 2-0

Shots: 26

SOT: 12

Poss: 54%

PassP: 69%

Had a bad first half and used the 'disappointed' team talk. Ripped them apart second half but only scored 88th min (target man) and 90th (left winger). I was convinced they weren't going to hold out so didn't change anything and was rewarded.

Target Man Ratings

Match Ratings (Goals + Assists): 10 (1+1), 10 (4+2), 9 (1+1), 9 (3+0), 9 (1+0)

Second Striker Ratings

Match Ratings (Goals + Assists): 8 (1+0), 9 (1+1), 10 (3+0), 8 (0+1), 9 (0+1)

As you can see it makes pretty reading. If form continues in such a mode I'll provide a full update soonest.

[HectorSpector]

I'm going to add a bottom line here...

If individual mentality does COMPLETELY override team mentality (from the horses mouth), then why does the manual hint otherwise, and why do people observe otherwise.

That answer from the programmers creates more questions than it answers tbh.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HectorSpector:

I'm going to add a bottom line here...

If individual mentality does COMPLETELY override team mentality (from the horses mouth), then why does the manual hint otherwise, and why do people observe otherwise.

That answer from the programmers creates more questions than it answers tbh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1: The manual has been badly written. They are computer programmers. Show me a programmer who can write and I'll show you an flying pig. Even if the manual was written by a pro, he still had to get his information from a programmer.

2: People believe what they want to believe in.

3: No, it doesn't. Individual overrides team, as it does in EVERY OTHER category.

[crazy gra]

Good results there, wwfan. Especially with the 10-0

I use a TM in my tactic to great success. Toni is my main TM who get's high ratings like what you've been getting from your TM and I've been rotating him a bit with Jo (from CSKA Moscow) who is just as awesome either with flick-ons or knock downs to the midfielders.

From looking at the stats for your away games, I'd be slightly worried by the Shot:SOT ratio, as it seems to indicate that you're getting forward well, but wasting chances too much. I reduced mentality and long shots for this reason so that I wasn't having as many speculative efforts during matches. Do you think this is a problem or not?

Btw, I plan to do some more testing with the d-line soon. I mentioned previously that it could be mirrored to the passing in the same way that I thought width and passing are linked. Won't have time to do that until Sunday I reckon, though.

[HectorSpector]

1. You're right there. I'm a programmer myself, and although my code is easy to read (being like that has cost me money over the years), I'm not responsible for the write up.

2. I believe what I see, true. Is everyone else that experiences something different from you automatically wrong? Don't be so naive.

3. Of course it doesn't create more questions for you... what you believed has been confirmed somewhat, so you're happy. There's a multitude of people that seem to have a different experiences, so the questions now are why is it different?

The plot thickens.

[wwfan]

I think you misunderstood me somewhat. If someone believes something to be so, then very often it will become fact in their eyes as they 'see' the evidence they wish to 'see'. This is basic sociological theory relating to how people construct their reality. Belief then becomes fact. If that 'fact' is then written as 'fact' other people also believe it and it codifies as a way of being. Thus, anybody who read the manual as team works in tandem with individual is likely to see evidnec that it does, write as if it does, and influence others. In this case, SIs statement would suggest they are wrong, but it doesn't mean I am belittling others experiences.

[HectorSpector]

I'm open to ideas, very much so, it's the only reson I frequent this pit of ineptitude (yourself and many excluded).

I don't have the manual myself (although I have requested a copy for imformational purposes), so I've tried to integrate several theories into my way of thinking, in order to create my own semblance of understanding.

The statement released by your man seems to contradict my own, and other people's version of events, so it is hard to accept as a 'hard and fast' rule, without the appropriate reasoning as to why we aren't seeing this as standard.

Maybe it's up to us to find out... maybe it's a flaw in the engine... who knows?

If my dad said to me tomorrow, "you're actually a girl", I wouldn't believe him. He created me, and he should know better, but my experiences dictate otherwise *wink* *wink*.

For some reason, one way works better than the other, and for yourself vice versa. Your game doesn't affect mine, and vice versa again.

I'm away to play a slow tempo long ball game, with deep defensive line and offside trap. See you on the other side.

:-)

[HectorSpector]

Another thing I forgot to mention that I tested this morning...

I've become interested in setting half of the pitch to one mentality, and the other side to something completely different, just for the sake of identifying the contrasts in styles. In an effort to highlight a difference in team mentality and individual mentality, I set the right side of the pitch to individual mentality of 20, and the left side of the pitch to team mentality, so that I could change the team mentality slider and watch for changes. Again, it is apparent that changing the team mentality slider to 20 does not do the same as setting the individual mentality to 20.

I could bang on about this **** all day, and people won't believe it, but that's my findings. Try it for yourselves. I use the same match over and over again to test formations and positional settings, so there's no taint in changing opposition (there's always a slight margin of variance however).

I'm not saying I'm right, just providing a different perspective.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

Good results there, wwfan. Especially with the 10-0

I use a TM in my tactic to great success. Toni is my main TM who get's high ratings like what you've been getting from your TM and I've been rotating him a bit with Jo (from CSKA Moscow) who is just as awesome either with flick-ons or knock downs to the midfielders.

From looking at the stats for your away games, I'd be slightly worried by the Shot:SOT ratio, as it seems to indicate that you're getting forward well, but wasting chances too much. I reduced mentality and long shots for this reason so that I wasn't having as many speculative efforts during matches. Do you think this is a problem or not?

Btw, I plan to do some more testing with the d-line soon. I mentioned previously that it could be mirrored to the passing in the same way that I thought width and passing are linked. Won't have time to do that until Sunday I reckon, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm round about 50% Shots on Target/Shots Total which I am quite happy about. The Deportivo match which is one in three I was at 100% until my player got sent off, which obviously warps the findings a little. As long as I'm creating a host of chances I should get a result more often than not.

[crazy gra]

Fair enough, the Deportivo stats did bring it down a bit. Either way, I think if you did reduce long shots on players then you might do a little better. I only have my MCa on mixed and everyone on rarely, but I still get other players (mainly the MCd or wingers when cutting inside) having good efforts.

What I was trying to do wasn't just about trying to achieve a decent Shot:SOT ratio anyway. The other reason behind it was because that a lot of the off-target shots I was getting were from long shots or other speculative efforts. I don't want wasted chances, but also if my player takes a audacious long shot, it will usually turn out to go off target or be an easy save for the keeper.

Especially with big teams, I'm always having opposition keepers playing blinders against me. Part of the reason for this could be because he's had a few easy saves to make, which builds up his confidence, hence making it harder to score against them. So reducing the speculative efforts will hopefully make it easier to beat the keeper as well as not wasting as many chances.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">wwfan

I first increased closing down for my full-backs as a lot of my lost possession and chances against seemed to be coming when the full-backs failed to get close enough to the winger who then passed it backwards to his full-back who launched a cross into the area. This stopped with increased CD for full-backs. I then began to dominate possession in the opening two fixtures, but was drawing 0-0 or losing 1-0. I upped creative freedom for my wingers, lowered closing down for my quick forward. No real change. Then I decided to reinstitue the HomeAlt model in which one of the FCs plays as a target man and has the lowest mentality (equal to goalkeeper) on the pitch. He has 'mixed' balls played to him. Instant success. He dragged his marker out of position and played a huge number of key passes to breaking players. He also won a lot of key headers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

May well have to try that. Most of my goals come from the wings, though I'm not playing wingers, of course, to cover the wingers.

Have you noticed any difference in using the opposition instructions to close down the opposition full backs? Deep crosses from DR and DL are a real pain on this version of the match engine, and so effective. It's created no end of problems for the opposition, and they then usually have to resort to punting it down the middle. Of course, my team are also crap down the middle, but it's a start.

[The next Diaby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justified:

So you're saying that a RoO diamond (in your opinion) is better then a RoT diamond in Fm07? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. It is certainly a better 4-4-2. I haven't played around enough with it to have an informed opinion. The next Diaby has built a RoO Diamond (the RoOmbus) which works well, but I haven't tested it enough or a RoT one for more than a few games. To be honest, if what you have is working then who am I to offer a critique? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no I was just asking for an opinion really. It all came about when I was just asking who still uses RoT but I can see quite a few people still do lean back on it so I'm happy I'm not the only one </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am using RoT for my 4-2-3-1 set. It was struggling when trying to implement RoO.

On the other hand, I did not get a diamont working with RoT (random results from brilliant to devastating), so I used RoO and it works.

It seems to be related to many other settings which mentality set suits you best. E.g. lately I started using the attack away mindset for the defensive diamond formation with great success, while the defensive mindset only was convincing as shut up shop. But for this purpose it is simply fantastic, while it really seems to work as default in wwfan's 4-4-2 away.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HectorSpector

If my dad said to me tomorrow, "you're actually a girl", I wouldn't believe him. He created me, and he should know better, but my experiences dictate otherwise *wink* *wink*.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your construct of what constitutes a "boy" or a "girl" is dictated by what you have been told by society.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

wwfan

I think you misunderstood me somewhat. If someone believes something to be so, then very often it will become fact in their eyes as they 'see' the evidence they wish to 'see'. This is basic sociological theory relating to how people construct their reality. Belief then becomes fact. If that 'fact' is then written as 'fact' other people also believe it and it codifies as a way of being. Thus, anybody who read the manual as team works in tandem with individual is likely to see evidnec that it does, write as if it does, and influence others. In this case, SIs statement would suggest they are wrong, but it doesn't mean I am belittling others experiences. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the reasons for creating this framework was to ascertain if there was any effect and how big the effect was. So far I don't remain convinced either way. The team are far more attacking on the home framework than the away one, but even if that's true, getting them both to work is going to be far more tricky.

However, I know this is probably picking at semantics, but I'm not sure your quote from SI really cleared things up any:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Individual Player Instructions override the Team Instructions where they are like for like. If you set an "All Out Attacking" mentality on the Team Instructions and then individually set all the players to an "Ultra Defensive" mentality - they will play ultra defensively providing this option is ticked and activated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That only deals with the extremes of the sliders. All of my individuals are on "normal", not ultra-defensive or all-out-attack. I would certainly expect individual to take precedence, but that isn't necessarily an override. I was always of the opinion that individual had the greatest effect, and all that quotation does is re-enforce that. My game using Cleon's approach, though, relied on changing the team mentality. If it is just a self-constructed illusion, then fair enough, but I wasted hours of my life.

Like I said, I've gone into this trying to see if there is a difference. And yes, I probably will see a difference because I want there to be one. However, I am, at this moment, unconvinced either way. I know that there's little positional difference between the away and home framework, but the team play differently. Perhaps playing the away framework at home and vice-vera may shed a little more light. Don't really want to restart the game a hundred times to find out though.